So what the hell happened here?!!! [Archive]

HeavyMetal

06-28-2008, 10:24 PM

I've seen case's like this before.

Unfortuntely a lot of possible reasons exist. The classic is someone over ramped the barrel in an attempt to improve feeding. If the weapon is unaltered then I will suggest the following:

1 a piece of brass that should have been scrapped and wasn't, I suggest examining the others you picked up in the same lot of "range" brass.

2 bullet was not seated correctly, to far out, and the round was able to fire out of battery.

3 over charged with powder. Which is why I don't like a press that auto index's!

4 the possibility exists that the wrong powder was chosen?? Unlikely but possible.

There is a 5th reason for this and I will post my thought on this although highly unlikely: The possiblity exists that as the primers were "crushed" one became very sensative and was "slam" fired before going fully into battery.

I will suspect reason 5 was your issue. I had problems with CCI primers years ago, in 45 auto brass in particular, but several pistol cases in general. I stopped using CCI for a long time because of this problem. Some time back I read they fixed this issue and I have used current CCI primers with no further issue as to fit in the primer pocket.

You did not say how old the CCI primers were? Were they new production or NOS surplus?

Not being in the "co pilot" seat when this type of accident happens leaves us making nothing but guess's. Hope I helped solve the problem.

By the way if you agree with me that it was an old stock CCI primer problem I'd pull the rest of this ammo down scrap the primers and start over! The next surprise could have a brother in the next cartridge down the mag and set it off as well! I have seen the results of chain reaction detonation in 38 supers loaded to hot! My understanding is it leaves one with an unusual "tingling" in the hands!

windrider919

06-28-2008, 10:27 PM

Welcome to the wonderful world of 1911 shooting. It has happened to lots of people.
My first thought is that there was an overcharge of powder. But a real double charge would have done more damage. My next thought is that "Brass has a lifespan, it weakens there each shot and your brass should be retired. It looks well used in the pictures. You did not mention where in the shot string it happened, was it the first shot or was it later. Did it happen when it chambered (high Primer) or when the trigger was pulled? How was the bullet secured? IE: what type of case pressure was holding the bullet. Old cases [weak] that are not taper crimped can let the bullet be knocked deeper into the case from recoil as shots are fired and it is several down in the mag. That reduced case volume increases pressure. Also, I have see where a spider nest in some old salvaged brass caused reduced case volume and raised pressure and a blowout. The clasic reason for case rupture is over polishing the feed ramp till too much case is unsupported. Ocasionally, you can get a 1911 to fire if certain parts are worn or mis machined and the pistol does not go completely into battery, IE: lock up; although this is extreamly rare. Have parts been replaced on this pistol? Rebuilt by an amature?
Your comments on primers were distirbing. If I was having that kind of problems I would stop right there and locate the cause.

After I first posted I saw you next picture of a loaded round. I think you are over crimping the cartridge. 45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth and a roll crimp lets the case extend into the barrel. That is why you should use a taper crimp. In old NRA articles i seem to remember that excessive pressure has been seen on occasion from roll crimping. It does not take much overpressure to blow out the unsupported area on a ACP case. Besides, roll crimping gives less accuracy.

Tumtatty

06-28-2008, 10:32 PM

What signs do I look for when picking up range brass?

This pistol was unmodified. I bought it new a couple weeks ago.

Could I have been seating the boolits too deep? I was basically following the design of the SWC and seating the booolit to the base of the cone.

The CCI primers were new from the gun store. I have used Winchester in the past but they were out. I have 500 left. I'm not sure if the gun store will take them back. I will certainly not buy these again.

billyb

06-28-2008, 10:39 PM

I think you may have got an overcharge, reasons, brass extruded into extracter chanel, to -of auto flanted to the point of not to depth of a normal case, bottom picture you can see to the point the case was supported right up to the case grove. Very glad no one was hurt.clothing can be washed, parts for the body are hard to replace. Bill

HeavyMetal

06-28-2008, 10:48 PM

I don't think your boolits are seated to deep looks, like shoulder is flush with the case mouth.

I have never had 45 case's seperate at the head, usually they crack at the case mouth, but I would in this case pull some down, randomly, and shine the light of day in the case and check the case head area for cracks. I'd also double check powder charges?

I re read your original post and see your using tumble lube boolits? Check diameters again!

In your place I'd be going nuts until I solved this problem! That would mean double check everything I might have done wrong, and don't think this is critizing it's not! I will plainly admit that I've had an issue or two in my day, last year I fired a 7.62x39 round in very pristine 308 caliber Savage 99 your case looks way better than that one did, so don't feel alone, just check everything!

docone31

06-28-2008, 10:57 PM

It looks too low for case head seperation. It was also in battery from the looks of the feed ramp shape on the case.
I load mine with Blue Dot. A double charge runs out of the case. So far, I have never had that happen. I always go real slow though. I set up a mirror so I can see the charge.
I am gonna bet it was an old case. I have always avoided picking up a lot of cases. Spider webs, crud, weather exposure. I pick up my spent cases.
That must have led to some interesting conversation shortly after. Those 1911s are pretty tough.
Did the casting exit the bore? At .452 I bet it did.
I use a buffer, and I have run some pretty hot loads through mine. Never seemed to be an advantage.
How does TiteGroup measure through your measure?
Could it have been a light load?
Glad no one got bit.

Tumtatty

06-28-2008, 11:07 PM

What would cause the round to not feed all the way in?

I've probably shot about 200 rounds with this recipe. I've had 10+ not feed correctly. I would eject the round and finish the clip. Then I'd reload the round in the empty clip and they always feed fine the 2nd time. Not sure what the problem is there. It may have been that this round did not feed completely (although it must have been nearly there for the gun to cycle) and the unsupported case ruptured.

Titegroup measures pretty consistently through my measure. I could have easily put 2 loads in the case. I just ran a test and got 3 in there and it was still not overflowing. I hope I didn't give a double load.

randyrat

06-28-2008, 11:40 PM

Don't put clips in your weapon anymore use magzines.
Sure looks like out of battery fired brass. Because, look at the distinctive ringe or edge of the chamber on the edge of the damaged brass and the way it peeled back. It wouldn't have peeled back if it was all the way in the chamber when it was fired and that ringe would be back farther, like more on the web of the brass. Do you have a real week firing pin spring? Week firing pin spring along with a slightly large bullet + dirty chamber. I'm quessing... Firing pin stuck forward.. dirt or grime in near the firing pin.

DLCTEX

06-28-2008, 11:41 PM

I do not seat SWC that deep. I leave at least 20 to 50 thou. or more of the shoulder out of the case, they feed better that way. With the TL boolit I would crimp in the last groove. This will give a better crimp and prevent the boolit being driven into the case during feeding. Using the barrel for a guage, seat the boolits just below the point that will dependably seat the round deep enough to chamber, leaving a little room for fouling or dried lube, etc. Maybe .005 or less. The boolit shoulder will not snag as much as the case mouth will. Brass fired in Glocks particularly may have a swelled area in front of the extractor groove that weakens the brass even when resized and can lead to feed problems unless fully sized all the way. Just my dos centavos. DALE

Boomer Mikey

06-29-2008, 01:06 AM

That looks like too much powder... or a bullet pushed too deep in the chambering process. I use TiteGroup in my 1911 MilSpec; that case appears to be completely chambered. The case blew out in the unsupported area at the feed ramp into the magazine. 5 grains of TiteGroup is a max load with 230's, 6 grains with a 200 SWC is a +P load and regular cases will bulge at the feed ramp with that load.

I experienced TiteGroup bridging in a powder measure that had a static charge once before... one of the reasons I always drop charges manually with a drop tube to watch each charge go into the cases and never load bullets into cases unless I visually inspect each charge in each case.

Drop two charges in a case and compare to a single charge; it's easy to see the difference, if you look carefully you can see a 1-1/2 charge.

TiteGroup is an excellent powder but using it demands attention to detail.

You said you're using a Lee factory crimp; I recommend using a taper crimp, or Lee Carbide Factory crimp die and adjusting the die to size cases to no larger than 0.471" at the case mouth. Measure your loads to see what the diameter is at the case mouth... too large and they won't chamber completely, they'll vary with the thickness of the brass in different brands. All your loads should fall into and out of the chamber. Remove the barrel and drop your loads into the chamber... the case should drop completely into the chamber and the rim should be flush or below the hood; then see if they fall out when you tip the barrel up... they should.

I agree that SWC's should be seated with the front driving band 25-50 thousandths outside the case mouth. Doing so permits the crimp die to set the inside case edge into the bullet making it harder to push the bullet deeper into the case... another possible explination for this event.

The MilSpec has a throated barrel with a polished feed ramp; seating SWC bullets a little longer shouldn't cause any chambering problems as long as they feed in the magazine well.

I use lots of range pickup brass in my 45's and 9mm, with normal inspection and preperation I've found it very reliable and without issue.

Boomer :Fire:

snuffy

06-29-2008, 01:12 AM

Mistakes can and do happen. Case in point, the following pic;

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/terrysoops/websize/image4.jpg

The center piece of brass is what a .308 winchester looks like after being fired in a .280 rifle. It happened in a Remington 7400, the rifle survived undamaged. My nephews attention is somewhat less than it should be, he was loading from a box of loose shells that had both .280 and .308 in it, didn't notice.

I'd say you didn't notice a double charge. Deeper seating does raise pressure, but not to the point of blowing a case like that. I'm not familiar with titegroup, is 5.0 a max charge? If not then a slightly deeper boolit would not do what happened here.

Chambering a SWC in a .45 is iffy in some pistols. My SA 45 will not chamber reliably with plated 200 SWC. Never tried PB SWC boolits.

rbuck351

06-29-2008, 01:36 AM

this case had way to much pressure. look at the primer hole and the flash hole. couple of possible reasons 1 double charge 2 bullet pushed way back in case when going from mag to chamber. I believe probably #2 In seating the bullet all the way inside the case there is nothing for the case mouth to bite into when crimping. This makes it easy to push the bullet back until it is stopped by the powder and still chamber with just a little bad luck. If that happened you get just what the picture shows. When I did it, it blew the mag out the bottom and the grips of the gun. Stings like mad. The reason I believe this is what happened is in my case the next round was rammed into the feed ramp with the bullet firmly against the powder. Just my guess, but it sure looks similar. rbuck

35remington

06-29-2008, 02:29 AM

Dale and the previous poster nailed it.

Your two problems - to echo the other guys:

Your COAL is too short. 1911's were not designed to feed that OAL. Kachunky feed results, gun is more likely to push bullet in the case.
Poorly applied crimp combined with flush bullet seating.

Taper crimps loosen bullet pull if done even a little excessively or badly. Idea is just to turn in case mouth flare from bullet seating. When correctly done, taper crimps do nothing to improve bullet tension. Best case is they do not make it worse. If you crimp such that the bullet must plow into the case mouth to be stopped you're crimping too much and placing too much faith in a little ring of lead.

Truth is, you're shoving a tapered bullet into a tapered case after taper crimping. Not good for bullet pull.

What is your case diameter at the case mouth after crimping?

I see IPSC shooters at my range using .465" and it makes me cringe.

9.3X62AL

06-29-2008, 02:35 AM

I will NEVER use range pickup brass--PERIOD--unless I KNOW FOR A FACT it is once-fired factory ammo leftovers. Brass is becoming so pricey that any getting left on the ground has a strong likelihood of being left on the ground for a very good reason--it's shot out. Bite the bullet, and order a lot of known-history brass from one of the online components suppliers. I don't know of a vendor that can supply new eyes at any price.

Bass Ackward

06-29-2008, 06:28 AM

Could be as most have suggested.

Another possibility is that people always assume that lead is going to throw less pressure than jacketed. And for a very large percentage of the time, it does. But once in a while under certain conditions lead can throw much more pressure.

If a load is developed that is operating marginally. Marginal is defined as one where everything is in balance but it works at the far end of a particular hardness, and at the far end of a lubes operating level and maybe no leading results because the load is developed under cooler conditions. If a gun was fired hot and this balance was lost lost on both ends, you would be subject to galling and a momentarily stuck slug in a shooting platform .... not designed to contain this for enough time for it to break free. In a platform that would support it fully, all you would see would be a flier and the beginning of leading. But that could happen with 3 grains of Tightgroup for that matter. Brass is the weakest link in the firing chain.

There is an old axiom to develop your loads under as hot a conditions as you will experience. With a semi, temperature can get out of hand quickly. This is why that train of thought came about.

hershey

06-29-2008, 08:31 AM

wow, thats scary, i can't add much to whats been said, but i know that i have sent trouble prone guns on down the road before because i don't have the expertise to sort out the problems w/ them. sounds more like a loading issue than a bad gun, but i have made allot of trips to gunsmiths and spent allot of money trying to sort out an ill performing 1911, i finally had enough and sent it down the road w/ a disclaimer.

Cloudpeak

06-29-2008, 09:04 AM

Random thoughts and comments:

The TL 200 SWC Lee bullet had trouble feeding 100% in both my 1911's. Yours is loaded too short. The "tumble bands" make it hard with this bullet design to find a "solid" part to lay the case mouth into when taper crimping.

The non-tumble lube bullet did better. The Lyman bullet is 100% in both pistols.

I wish we could come up with a different, non-confusing term for removing the case mouth bell on semi-auto brass. When most people hear crimp, they think "roll the case mouth into a crimp groove or over a driving band." With revolvers, this is the thing to do.

With any cartridge that head spaces on the rim, this is not what we want. On semi-auto loads a "crimp" is simply removing the case mouth bell so the cartridge will feed into the chamber. Bullet tension is a function of the sizing die/expander plug and bullet diameter. I've never had problems with the re-size die but I have "turned down" an expander plug or two to get good tension on the bullet. I always test dummy rounds for bullet setback by taking a caliper measurement and then loading the dummy rounds several times and checking for setback.

I shoot a lot of range brass. I clean the brass in my Lyman "tumbler" and then check for obvious defects and cull "A Merc" brass. I also check case heads for "bulge". If anything looks fishy, into the scrap bin it goes. When I'm cycling brass through my Hornady L-N-L progressive, if a case resizes harder than all the others (you get a pretty good feel for this after a few rounds), into the scrap bin it goes.

On the L-N-L, I always check powder level before placing the bullet on the case mouth. As this is an indexing press, it would take a lot of bad luck to get a double charge.

Good luck and I'm glad nobody was hurt.

(A post to the gunsmithing section on: http://forum.m1911.org/index.php? might yield some more opinions.)

Cloudpeak

monadnock#5

06-29-2008, 09:18 AM

Another possibility: The consensus so far on powder charge is a double charge. Perhaps, but maybe there's another scenario. You carefully weigh out your charges when setting up, and when everything is good, so you then dump charges as fast as you can index the cases. When done you give the cases a look see and all are charged, so it's on to seating.

What I,ve found on occasion is that at some point a measure will throw short charges. When the powder builds up in the measure, at some point it all dumps at once. So you end up with 2 or 3 short loads and 1 :shock: Depending on the number of charges thrown, you can go through several cycles of this.

Why? Me not know. Static, humidity, the moon drifted out of alignment with Sagitarius? All of the above?

So that's why we use the knocker each time, or double tap at the top and bottom of the stroke, rap the measure with a police baton, whatever works. Weigh multiple charges at setup, at the end, and at several points in between. And one more thing, at inspection, look carefully at each charge. If you see one that doesn't look right, weigh it. It's the only way to know for sure.

Down South

06-29-2008, 09:29 AM

It looks like it was out of battery or too much powder or the bullet was seated too deep causing a compressed charge. Anyone of these can cause this to happen.

What I,ve found on occasion is that at some point a measure will throw short charges. When the powder builds up in the measure, at some point it all dumps at once. So you end up with 2 or 3 short loads and 1 Depending on the number of charges thrown, you can go through several cycles of this.

I've had this happen once with a 38 Special. One small bang then several shots later, Boom. Scared the crap out of me. The only thing that I could contribute it to was my powder measure somehow bridged over on one load then dropped a full load plus what was left from the previous load in the next round. I no longer use that powder.

44man

06-29-2008, 11:28 AM

Yes, recoil could have moved the boolit into the case while in the magazine increasing pressure. Not a good idea to seat over the front edge of a boolit.
Since the 1911 does not have a disconnect at the rear of the pin, it is possible the inertia of the pin fired the case if it stopped suddenly before reaching battery. A disconnect makes the rest of the pin lighter. Might be a good time to buy a titanium pin.
I would check for a weak pin spring or crud in the hole that will prevent the pin from retracting too. Not good for the soul if the pin keeps sticking out of the hole.
Want to have fun, shoot an AK version with reloads. Full auto for a while! :-D They were too stupid to spring the pin. They just made primers tougher. Load the mag, point the gun safe and release the bolt for a slam fire every time. I have converted a bunch for springs.

JIMinPHX

06-29-2008, 11:54 AM

Not too much left to add here… The likely causes have been pretty well covered. My bet is on one of three things. It could be a hot powder charge, a failure to go fully into battery before firing or a feed ramp that was over-chamfered to facilitate better feeding. I don’t think that looks like over-used brass, although if it were a balloon head case (very rare these days) that could also be the problem. Since you are not seeing this problem on a regular basis, I’m going to cross off the over-chamfering possibility from my list too. If that was the case, you would be seeing bulged brass more often. If it was an overcharge, you would also see signs of high pressure on the rear of the case. If they are not there, then you were probably not fully in battery when the gun fired & the gun itself needs to be looked at by a qualified pistolsmith. The following pictures are from an overcharged round. Note the rear of the case & how it flowed into the recess near the extractor in the gun. This case didn't let go, but it was a half a heartbeat away from bursting. Both these pieces of brass were fired from the same gun the same day.

Echo

06-29-2008, 12:38 PM

I've seen factory loads blow in a similar fashion - blow out the bottom of the case, where it is unsupported by the barrel. But not in such an exciting manner. I'm voting for a double charge. And if the magazine wasn't blown out, and the stocks blown up, and SPLINTERED, you and your friend are very lucky.

And I agree - seat the bullets out .020-.040 so the bullet contacts the rifling. Contrary to popular belief, the .45ACP does not headspace on the case mouth. Measure the depth of the chamber, then look in a manual for the trim-to length, measure your own cases, and see the difference. I was told by several very high-powered smiths that the round headspaces on the bullet/boolit, and one should seat the projectile out to contact the rifling. If you try a loaded round in the barrel, and it is a mite proud, don't worry - it WILL seat when the slide goes into battery.

Meine zwei pfennig...

mtgrs737

06-29-2008, 01:08 PM

I would consider not crimping so much, the loaded round has quite a bit of crimp and it may be that the round is cambering a little too deep and pinching the case mouth in the leade of the barrel bore enough to cause a spike in pressure. Tightgroup is a fast powder and your charge is near maximum, this and the slow to release pinching effect may of over stressed the used range brass enough to cause the rupture. Bullet fit alone should be enough to hold the boolit in place when using good brass. Get some new or once fired brass and a taper crimp die and crimp to just remove the flare that is applied to aid in seating a lead boolit.

35remington

06-29-2008, 02:04 PM

"Contrary to popular belief, the .45ACP does not headspace on the case mouth."

Whoopsie. With many if not most jacketed rounds loaded by the factory, it does indeed headspace on the case mouth. Chambering a round in the barrel while out of the gun shows this simply and easily. Not a hijack - just an erroneous common belief that many promulgate, and that we've had some success correcting that here. Many handloaded rounds may indeed headspace on the bullet, especially lead bullets, as commonly loaded.

Regards the kaboom, care is the ony prevention.

dubber123

06-29-2008, 03:48 PM

Well, one of your questions regarded the hard seating of primers, and I wondered if some of your brass is military, and has a crimped in primer. They de-prime just fine, but I find they need a little chamfer to allow easy re-priming. If not chamfered, they will shave, bind, or just not go in. I just use my RCBS case mouth tool to do this.

sniper

06-29-2008, 05:11 PM

Definitely, overpressure, IMO. When I first started reloading, I was shooting with a guy who was using a hot load and iirc, cast 250gr. 45-70 bullets in his 1911. I noticed that it was ejecting really forcefully, straight up. He would shoot, and I could follow the case up, holler "I got it!" wait a beat or two, and catch it. Then I noticed that two or three cases had neat little scoops blown in the base, where the case was unsupported.

Then the pistol disassembled itself...The bushing broke, and the mainspring landed about 6 feet in front of us.

It was an old war weary 1911, but it shows the manufacturers do a very good job of protecting us from ourselves. I don't think deep seating all by itself would cause such a failure. New brass seems to be indicated, as well as a careful check of charge weights, bullet weight/diameter, and seating depth.

38-55

06-29-2008, 05:51 PM

Hello Tumtatty,
Wow ! That looks to be an airplane wreck !.. No one factor by it self but a bunch of little ones all coming together to cause a blow out.. Bullet looks to be slightly over sized.. normally no big deal, case looks to be slightly skewed.. causing it to not lay flat in the chamber.. no big deal normally.. max charge..never really a good thing.. range pick up brass.. well I hope you've learned a lesson there... it's never a good idea to put some else's trash ( hey, they would pick it up if it wasn't trash ) in your weapon... Primer hole looks to be large... that will spike pressure in a heartbeat...new gun with tight chamber which is a good thing normally.. Primer compound/pellet crushed during loading process changing burn rate... never a good thing. But As I see it your main problem is/was your crimp. It's a roll crimp ya got there not a taper crimp.
A roll crimp on a cartridge that head spaces on case length is a disaster waiting to happen. It causes a headspace issue. It allows the case to go farther into the chamber than it should normally thus causing excessive headspace. The extractor will hold the case against the breach face so the firing pin can ignite the charge... but the firing pin shoves the front of the case into the throat/barrel and the roll crimp actually helps funnel the the case into the rifling thus turning a straight walled case into a bottlenecked cartridge. No place for the cartridge to expand except........Not good. Let's recap... large,crooked bullet with over sized flash hole and a crushed primer pellet jammed into the rifling with a max charge under it in a tight chamber with trash brass.
Dude I'm glad your OK !
Hope this helps.
Stay safe
Calvin
PS Not to long ago I ran across some r&p brass that was supposed to be super clean or some such and it had wayyyyy over sized flash holes

gcf

06-29-2008, 06:41 PM

I agree that SWC's should be seated with the front driving band 25-50 thousandths outside the case mouth. Doing so permits the crimp die to set the inside case edge into the bullet making it harder to push the bullet deeper into the case... another possible explination for this event.

The MilSpec has a throated barrel with a polished feed ramp; seating SWC bullets a little longer shouldn't cause any chambering problems as long as they feed in the magazine well.

Boomer :Fire:

+ 1 for this possibility. A short SWC round that is crimped too high, could easily get pushed into the case by hitting the feed ramp on a less then optimal angle.

Happened to me once, but fortunately jammed - instead of chambering. I would suspect that a bullet pushed .250" - .350" into the case, would raise pressure into the double charge range. The matter could be complicated further, w/ a fast powder...

A possibility that could contribute to an out of battery ignition, is a borderline barrel lug, or slide / frame fitment issue. Teamed up w/ a light, or worn recoil spring (and / or excess fouling), & the slide / barrel might not return fully into battery on a 100% basis.

After unloading - & chamber checking twice, you might slowly hand cycle the slide 30 - 40 times. A 1911 that is new (or old, I suppose) w/ borderline fitment issues, will sometimes require a bit of a nudge on the back of the slide, to go into battery when cycled slowly.

Anyway, just my $0.02. Glad no one got hurt.

44man

06-29-2008, 08:14 PM

Do dies for the ACP come with a roll crimp? I think they all have the taper crimp but going back to the picture, it is way over done. Something I didn't see right off. Without a portion of a boolit to restrict the crimp, it can roll over like a roll crimp.
All you want to do is straighten the flare and snug the case to the boolit.
Then seating the boolit that deep to get a roll over the edge is also raising pressure let alone what happens if it is driven into the lead.

docone31

06-29-2008, 08:42 PM

The Lee Dies for the 45 ACP also work with 45 Auto Rim. The Auto Rim crimps.
I loaded up some using the four dies and it started to crimp. I backed off to use the final die as a sizer. It did some crimping, just making a small roll down. I tried them in the chamber and they stop.
I can see how that particular set can be used to make a crimp. The three die set does not crimp.
I usually, at least to this point, use jacketed in the 45. I loaded lead and got the four die station for my press. That is when the crimp showed. I never used the sizer die untill then. It has hence been removed.
I can see how that would have happened.

Alchemist

06-29-2008, 08:56 PM

Tumtatty,

As stated in other posts, most likely an over/double charge of powder. It looks like the pistol was fully in battery, due to the blowout in the unsupported section of the case. To visualize this, fieldstrip your pistol and after removing the barrel place one of your loads in the chamber. You'll be able to see the degree to which the case is unsupported by the chamber. It varies with every barrel, since no two ramps are the same. Do the same thing with a factory load, and compare to your loads. If your loads are out of spec by much, you'll definitely see it.

Your primer seating problem could be due to numerous causes. I've heard of guys who say CCI primers are very slightly larger in diameter....I've never noticed it. You didn't mention whether or not you're using an automatic primer feed, but primers falling apart is unusual with normal handling. Save your gas trying to return them to the shop where you got them. I would instead contact CCI directly with any quality issues, as they will be grateful for the chance to straighten out any issues. Hope you kept the packaging, you'll need lot #, etc.

Hope that helps...keep us posted as you learn more.

Cheers,
Alchemist

P.S. Glad nobody got hurt...it could have been much worse.

cuzinbruce

06-29-2008, 09:15 PM

A couple people in this thread have mentioned powder bridging in the measure, resulting in one or more undercharges, then an overcharge.
I don't see how this can happen. I have had powder "bridge" in the measure and the result was an undercharge. It seems to me, that when the powder bridges and some stays in the meters chamber, when you turn the meter back for the next charge, it will just fill the meter chamber back up to what the charge should be. I don't see how it could wind up with an overcharge. There doesn't seem to be any way to get an excess of powder into the chamber and no where it is going to remain. Unless it stayed in the drop tube? Any thoughts on this?
Powders I had this happen with were Herco and Blue Dot. Meters were RCBS Uniflow and RCBS Little Dandy. Charges were light, like 4.5 grains of Herco.

jhalcott

06-29-2008, 09:42 PM

Cuz ,maybe it "bridges" in the measure. Then the next charge knocks it loose. i can see one under and one over in this case but NOT 2-3 under and then a single over charge.

rbuck351

06-30-2008, 12:08 AM

Tumtatty

06-30-2008, 12:10 AM

Thanks for the responses guys.

I will reduce the loads, Get some new brass, Seat the boolits a bit higher and give less crimp. Does that sound right?

that incident still gives me the shakes. I'm so glad my friend is ok. I also don't think I'll be letting anyone else use my reloaded rounds from here on out. I need to be the one who suffers the consequences.

Tim

floodgate

06-30-2008, 02:20 AM

cuzinbruce:

That's when it bridges in the drop tube, and gets knocked loose when the next charge drops from the measuring tube into the drop tube. Especially if you use the .22 - .284 drop tube in your measure when you should be using the .30 cal. and up one

Fg

Cloudpeak

06-30-2008, 07:36 AM

For those of you that think a deep seated bullet doesn't raise pressure dramaticly, you can prove it easily. Take a fast powder ,such as was used, and load up a few rounds while gradually decreasing OAL say about .010" per round,and then test carefully. If anyone should actually try this folly, please be very carefull because you WILL end up with what Tumtatty has if you go far enough.

I agree. The deeper you seat a bullet with a given charge, the higher the pressure.

But, the 45 ACP is a low pressure round. Also, working up loads and checking for signs of pressure won't work well without some high price equipment with the 45. While checking primers on rifle cartridges seems to work well, look at the primer at the start of this thread. I don't see any signs of pressure. I could see changes in primers when I was working up loads in my 44 magnum but not 45's (but to be honest, I load lead bullets to mild-mid range loads. For full power loads, I'll stick with factory.)

I asked about this incident over at the m1911.org in the gunsmithing forum (my go-to place for all questions about 1911 function) and there are a few posts there. The main question I had was I thought the 45 (and most, if not all semi-auto cartridges headspaced on the rim).

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?p=523843#post523843

Anyway, I'm not trying to stir things up. I just hope I and other reloader/1911 guys can learn why this happened so we don't have the same problem.

Cloudpeak

Ricochet

06-30-2008, 10:08 AM

A bullet getting pushed into the case would be my guess.

Tumtatty

06-30-2008, 11:47 AM

I looked at the next round in the magazine and it was pushed back below the rim of the brass!

sniper

06-30-2008, 12:38 PM

I agree. The deeper you seat a bullet with a given charge, the higher the pressure.

As far as it goes, that is true, but, iirc, years ago, the NRA ran some tests, seating bullets incrementally deeper into cases, to see if they could duplicate the catastrophic blow ups we have all seen pictures of or remains displayed.

Couldln't be done, at least not by them, but they sensibly called a halt at ~70,000psi. That was REALLY deep seated!

Can happen, and it is not too smart to play around with "strange" bullet weights/diameters/seating depths/max loads, a'la my buddy of the self-disassembling 1911.

The combination can be REALLY interesting, but does tend to frighten the horses. :-D

Cap'n Morgan

06-30-2008, 12:53 PM

gcf

06-30-2008, 03:27 PM

When this thread started I tried punching some numbers into 'Quickload'. Setting the bullet .01" deeper would raise pressure about 700 psi. 0.1" deeper would increase pressure around 35%!

Interesting. Lot of folks think nothing of a .01" - .02" variation in seating depth, from one batch of loads to the next.

Out of curiousity, what percentage pressure increase is to be found w/ a .25" - .35" bullet setback?

I would expect to see that amount of setback, w/ a lightly - or incorrectly crimped SWC, that had experienced a nose dive / failure to chamber incident in a .45 auto 1911 Gov't Model.

Thanks in advance!

cuzinbruce

06-30-2008, 05:14 PM

In this months Handloader magazine (June-July 2008), Mike Venturino has a picture of a ruptured case like yours, although not as extreme. Article is "Lead Bullets and Autoloading Pistols". A 9mm Luger case went on him. Article says he was using a mixed lot of brass with a proven load. Traced the problem to one brand of brass being thinner than the others, allowing the bullet to be pushed back by recoil.

Cap'n Morgan

06-30-2008, 05:37 PM

Out of curiousity, what percentage pressure increase is to be found w/ a .25" - .35" bullet setback?

A load of 5 grain Bullseye under a 230 grain bullet, OAL 1.275" gives 15800 psi, and will fill 58% of the space under the bullet. Setting the bullet 0.145 deeper will take up the remaining space... and the pressure will increase exactly 100% to a whooping 31600 psi !

Maven

06-30-2008, 06:33 PM

Here's what Starmetal [Joe] wrote about it on the AR forum:

"I disagree with that case ruptured because it was a very overpressured double load. Look at at the first picture of the head. If it was high pressure the case would have pushed very hard back against the breech face and there would have been an extrctor and extractor hole impression the case. There is not. In fact if you look at the black soot that is on the case you can see that it came up from around the bottom of the case (where it ruptured) and even outlined the extractor, but the area of the extractor has not impression alone any marks of high pressure. Also notice that a lot of that case, contrary to what he claims, was NOT inside the chamber. That's a lot of unsupported web where it blew and he claims it was locked up at the time. Couldn't have been."

looseprojectile

06-30-2008, 11:05 PM

Just my thoughts;
I see that the primer pocket is egg shaped. If I were to anneal a case this is what I would expect to happen with an otherwise normal load.. Maybe the case in question was inadvertently annealed.
I am a brass rat and use range brass of every caliber. Of course I cull this same brass quite severely. I am still using a few.45 auto brass from the twenties and thirtys. Luckily I have never had an issue such as this happen with my reloads.
I will be a lot more careful from now on.:roll:
Life is good

Echo

06-30-2008, 11:54 PM

Whoopsie back at you. Several pretty good pistolsmiths (Jim Clark, Bob Day, Dick Shockey, Lew Willing) told me about the fact that the .45ACP case is actually shorter than the chamber, so the round must headspace on the bullet.

Just to make sure, I dug down and came up with a brand new 1911 barrel. Measured the depth of the chamber, and found it to be .898, which is what the Lyman manual says is the max length - trim length is .895.

Then to check further, I grabbed a few sized & deprimed cases from the bench and measured them - most about .893-4. Hmmm. Not brand new, so I dug some more and measured some new Rem HB - some Rem WC - some WW WC - some Match HB - all new ammo. The case length of all these was .893-.894. The WC's were seated out about .050. Therefore -

The .45ACP does NOT headspace on the case, even in the case of new ammo. The extractor may have some effect on HS, but basically the round headspaces on the bullet. As Jim, Bob, Dick, Lew, and others told me...

JIMinPHX

07-01-2008, 02:21 AM

Here's what Starmetal [Joe] Look at at the first picture of the head. If it was high pressure the case would have pushed very hard back against the breech face and there would have been an extrctor and extractor hole impression the case.

Exactly what I said before (see the pictures that I posted)

JIMinPHX

07-01-2008, 02:32 AM

I asked about this incident over at the m1911.org in the gunsmithing forum (my go-to place for all questions about 1911 function) and there are a few posts there. The main question I had was I thought the 45 (and most, if not all semi-auto cartridges headspaced on the rim).

http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?p=523843#post523843

Anyway, I'm not trying to stir things up. I just hope I and other reloader/1911 guys can learn why this happened so we don't have the same problem.

Cloudpeak

I noticed that those folks over there had some disagreements on headspacing amongst themselves. Here's what my shop manual says -

DLCTEX

07-01-2008, 02:57 AM

The above is why I prefer to use the barrel of the gun the round will be fired in for an overall length guage. There are too many chances for variation even within SAAMI standards, and we all know that many guns are produced that exceed (+or-) specs. DALE

AlaskaMike

07-01-2008, 11:34 AM

I looked at the next round in the magazine and it was pushed back below the rim of the brass!

Looks like you just confirmed the problem!

Short, fat cartridges like .45 ACP are extremely susceptible to high pressure increases with deeper seating of the bullet. The percentage of case volume consumed as the bullet seats deeper is much more than a long, narrow cartridge like the .357 mag for example. For the bullet you're using, it seems like the most common OALs are between 1.23" and 1.25". I did an experiment using Lasercast 200 grain SWCs with 5.8 grains of 231, dropping the OAL from 1.26" to 1.23" to try to see if I could reduce powder fouling by increasing pressure a bit. 14 rounds per string, with the average velocities below, out of my Sig P220. What was interesting to me was that velocity didn't uniformly increase, but SD decreased uniformly.

OAL Vel. SD
1.26" 842 19
1.24" 856 12
1.23" 846 8

Note that Titegroup burns much faster than 231, which would significantly raise the risk of an experiment such as this.

At the risk of getting flamed, I'll admit that I really don't have any problem with using range pickup brass in .45 ACP. I *do* inspect it, and have discarded cases in the past because things like deep scratches, cracks developing in the case mouth, etc. However, it's probably good for a new reloader to use new, or known once-fired brass (like buy new ammo, shoot it yourself and then reload those cases).

Mike

Sig shooter

07-01-2008, 12:08 PM

Like others have posted , leave more lead exposed at case mouth . That crimp rolls over on the bullet holding it in ( you need a tapered crimp). Throw out cases with enlarged case heads ( check the brass in loaded round gauge " backwards " )

KCSO

07-01-2008, 12:33 PM

I have seen this several times...
First off the 1911's do not have a fully supported chamber and some makers in an attempt to get better feeding make the problem worse with their modifications to the feed ramp. Then you use fast burning powder in a small case and if that bullet moves any as it slams up the ramp and into the chamber you have excess pressure. Now add to that that most brass fired in a Glock is unfit to reload (look at it it's already bulged) and if you piick up a case that is already stressed and reload it and the original bulge is in the wrong spot... KABOOM.

The cure is to use a GOOD taper crimp on your reloads and be very picky about what you reload. If the brass has a noticable bulge when you piick it up it is scrap brass, no exceptions. Unless you like KABOOM's.

JIMinPHX

07-01-2008, 03:18 PM

At the risk of getting flamed, I'll admit that I really don't have any problem with using range pickup brass in .45 ACP. I *do* inspect it, and have discarded cases in the past because things like deep scratches, cracks developing in the case mouth, etc. However, it's probably good for a new reloader to use new, or known once-fired brass (like buy new ammo, shoot it yourself and then reload those cases).

Mike

No flames here. About half the brass I have is range pick up. I've been using it happily for over 20 years with no problems. Like you, I do inspect what I pick up & trash the junkers.

JIMinPHX

07-01-2008, 03:30 PM

First off the 1911's do not have a fully supported chamber and some makers in an attempt to get better feeding make the problem worse with their modifications to the feed ramp.

I agree that improper ramping is a common problem. The 1911 is spec'd for a maximum case head exposure of .090". Improper headspacing, excessive ramp relief & failure to go fully into battery will cause this number to be exceeded. If there is not evidence of this blown case having been caused by a single extra-hot round, then the gun needs to be checked by a qualified pistolsmith. There is probably something wrong with it.

35remington

07-01-2008, 06:57 PM

EasyEd:

"The .45ACP does NOT headspace on the case, even in the case of new ammo."

Yep, it does. Please read this entire post.

Take a factory round, ball or hollowpoint. Seat the round. Measure the headspace.

Now pull the bullet and measure the headspace, case only.

No change.

Some 1911's have short throats; some have long throats. On jacketed factory rounds, the bullet bearing surface forward of the case must clear the leade, no matter how short it is. Example: My Ruger P97, which has a throat even shorter than 1911's. Cast bullet that feed thru 1911's get stuck well before battery on this gun, due to the larger diameter forward shoulder of the bullet and early rifling contact. Very, very little shoulder can be exposed and still chamber. All jacketed factory loads (haven't tried target SWC's in 185 grain weight) seat fine. And headspace on the case mouth.

Why?

Not much full diameter bearing surface forward of the case mouth. This is done deliberately to clear all throat/leade types.

Try it for yourself and be educated.

How to:

Seat jacketed bullet well out; examples for me immediately at hand being 230 ball, 230 FMJ FP Hornady, 230 Hornady XTP, 185 XTP, Sierra 230 HP, Remington Golden Saber, and Winchester 230 hollowpoint. These have to have the bullet seated well out, longer by many thousandths than factory ammo, to headspace on the bullet. Even in my short throat Ruger, and same applies to my 1911's. The Golden Sabers are a gimme, because they have a reduced diameter forward section, but try it with other hollowpoint types, or whatever. Start considerably longer than factory, and seat deeper a bit at a time, until the round chambers flush with the hood (make sure to turn in the mouth flare for proper chambering). Now measure overall length, which is still longer than factory.

Even given front to back chamber tolerances, and flush with the hood as opposed to somewhat below it regarding case fit, a bullet would have to be seated well out, much longer than the factories load, to routinely headspace on the bullet.

These barrels I tried this in were still somewhat dirty from shooting cast bullet loads, so this is representative of actual conditions.

230 ball has to be seated almost ridiculously long to headspace on the bullet, at 1.290." Knock off thirty thousandths to 1.260" as most factory ammo is loaded to and it's pretty durn clear that the round is not headspacing on the rifling. Same with the 230 FJM FP and the hollowpoints, which have squarer shoulders and would "seem" to be more likely to headspace on the bullet. Factory rounds are loaded a full twenty five to forty thousandths shorter than is required to headspace on the bullet, depending upon bullet type and the chamber we're loading the round in. The Winchester HP will headspace on the rifling at 1.270", forty to fifty thousandths longer than they load it. The Hornady XTP's headspace on the rifling at 1.235 - 1.240", and Hornady recommends 1.200" in its loading manual (look it up). I haven't found any factory loaded XTP to exceed 1.220" - most are between 1.210 and 1.215 in the boxes I've purchased, and I've a few leftover on hand. Given any halfway normal chamber and even below flush with the hood headspacing, the case mouth will headspace before the bullet does in jacketed factory loads. Like I said, I dunno about 185 target SWC's.

Don't take somebody's word for it. Try it yourself, and be informed. Factory jacketed ammo seating depth is designed to clear any leade that is present, no matter how short it may be. They have to do it this way or they'd receive complaints about functionality.

And update your (expert) friends. They obviously haven't tried it themselves to resolve the issue, or they wouldn't say what they've asserted to be true.

Like I said, try it. Don't take someone else's word for it. They might be wrong.

On edit:

Incidentally, the fact that your cases are .005" shorter than your chamber doesn't mean the cases are headspacing on the bullet. The case is driven forward the five thousandths by the firing pin until the case mouth contacts the stop shoulder. A cartridge would have to be overlong by considerably more than five thousandths - as I have just proved - for the bullet to headspace the round. Backing the bullet off 5 thousandths from the rifling means case and bullet headspace theoretically at the same time. Since the bullet is much further back than that in jacketed factory loads (remember my 25 to 50 thou), you will see that even short cases headspace on the case mouth. The case mouth needs to go five thousandths to hit the chamber stop shoulder - but the bullet needs to go another 20 to 40 thousandths or more forward to headspace on the rifling.

The extractor doesn't control headspacing in the 1911 either. A case would have to be very radically short for the extractor to come into play. In factory loads, the extractor headspaces nothing. The "headspacing extractor" myth got killed awhile back. It takes some time to get everyone informed.

If I've got you thinking and getting out the loading equipment, that was my intention.

The Dove

07-01-2008, 07:40 PM

Why can't I get the pictures????????????????

The Dove

Tumtatty

07-01-2008, 11:47 PM

Tumtatty

07-01-2008, 11:56 PM

The cure is to use a GOOD taper crimp on your reloads and be very picky about what you reload. If the brass has a noticable bulge when you piick it up it is scrap brass, no exceptions. Unless you like KABOOM's.

I have the Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die. On the Midway USA sight under the Lee Taper Crimp Die it reads that the taper crimp die "is hardened steel designed to overcome crimp problems caused by poor die design. These dies offer little or no advantage when used with 1986 or newer Lee dies as the crimp angle is already a modified taper crimp. Jacketed bullets must have a crimp groove (cannelure)."

They seem to think that a taper crimp is already place on the case by their newer dies. Is this true? Do I scrap the Factory Crimp die? Is any taper crimp die going to do the trick?

Tumtatty

07-02-2008, 12:42 AM

You said you're using a Lee factory crimp; I recommend using a taper crimp, or Lee Carbide Factory crimp die and adjusting the die to size cases to no larger than 0.471" at the case mouth. Measure your loads to see what the diameter is at the case mouth... too large and they won't chamber completely, they'll vary with the thickness of the brass in different brands. All your loads should fall into and out of the chamber. Remove the barrel and drop your loads into the chamber... the case should drop completely into the chamber and the rim should be flush or below the hood; then see if they fall out when you tip the barrel up... they should.

Boomer :Fire:
I sized these boolits to .452. When I load them into the cases the diameter of the loaded case is .472.5 - 4.74. Do I need to get a .451 sizer instead of the .452? None of cases falls out of the chamber unless I tap it gently.

cases are being resized to .467

exile

07-02-2008, 05:06 AM

I will approach this cautiously because I am not an expert. Having said that I reload for Glock pistols in 9mm and .357 Sig. The one thing I will not do is reload for .40 S &W for use in Glock pistols, at least not with a factory barrel. My point is that maybe one of those range pickups was fired out of a Glock. Glock factory barrels seem to have a problem in .45 ACP just like in 40 S &W. That case bulge from a "less supported chamber" is ugly. Also, I have used CCI primers for several years with no problems, probably because I use a single-stage press and a Lee hand primer. Like I said, pretty new at this but those are my thoughts.

docone31

07-02-2008, 09:10 AM

With the four die set, do not use the crimp die. The third die in the set will taper the case for .45ACP. I used mine and saw the same thing. I did use the crimp die, but, I left it pretty much "loose" on the shell. All it does is round a little, rather than crimp. Next time I load I will not use the die.
I did not use the crimp die on my 9mm set.

Echo

07-02-2008, 11:58 AM

Those friends have gone to their reward.

Jim Clark was a pistolsmith in Shreveport LA when I was stationed @ Barksdale AFB in the early '60's. Pistol shooters know the name Jim Clark. His guns were shot by champions. He was a friend that had to build another room on his house to hold his trophies, and his guns are still in demand. His son has continued the tradition. Go to http://www.bullseyepistol.com/clark.htm to find out more about Jim Clark.

Bob Day was the NCOIC of the Custom Gun Shop @ Lackland AFB. He supervised the accurizing of USAF Professional Grade weapons, and invented the Day 30-X conversion for 1911's, making them into competitive .22's. The first time I shot mine I shot a 298 match course. The next time (a couple of days later) I set a new USAF record that still stands. Bob knew pistols. His guns won several National Championships.

Dick Shockey was a pistolsmith living in El Reno OK, west of OKC, when I was stationed @ Tinker AFB. He did some work for me, and even loaned me a gun to shoot in The All-AF matches. Pistol shooters knew the name Dick Shockey, and Shockey pistols were shot by champions.

Lew Willing was a smith @ Lackland that only USAF folks knew. He worked for Bob, and built my wad gun that still shoots 2 1/2" groups @ 50 yards.

These guys weren't across-the-street neighbors, or club members. They were professionals who knew more about pistols than the average bear, and they all told me that the bullets in a .45ACP should be seated out to contact the rifling, as the case is shorter than the chamber, and inertia keeps the round from moving forward when struck by the firing pin. I believe they knew whereof they spoke.

No flaming here, just enlightenment regarding my 'friends'.

686

07-02-2008, 12:52 PM

I HAD a 45 acp rd go off bedore it was full in the chamber. the fireing pin had gotter dirty and stuck out. when i chambered the rd,, band. it was pointed in a safe direction. i almost did it again then saw what was wrong. light loads and no case rupture. the gun is clean now.

Boomer Mikey

07-02-2008, 01:19 PM

I sized these boolits to .452. When I load them into the cases the diameter of the loaded case is .472.5 - 4.74. Do I need to get a .451 sizer instead of the .452? None of cases falls out of the chamber unless I tap it gently.

cases are being resized to .467

What I'm talking about here is the diameter of your loaded ammo; see the thumbnail below.

Your picture of the loaded round shows a heavy crimp on the case mouth, IMO too heavy. It may be that the case is bulging from that heavy crimp... the idea here is to remove the belling of the case mouth leaving the case flat against the side of the bullet with a slight taper and the inside edge of the case mouth slightly engraving the bullet to prevent setback during chambering. When using the taper crimp die you won't feel the case fold into the bullet... just some sliding friction.

Adjust the depth of the die to produce a finished round diameter of 0.473" maximum. Your 0.452" boolits should be fine. If you don't need to push the loaded round into the chamber you're probably OK, but you could turn the crimp die down a little more to produce no larger than a 0.473" diameter loaded round and see if they fall out. The throated chamber will also hold onto the driving band of the bullet when chambered... a good thing.

What Lee is saying is that their new die sets bullet seater die includes a taper crimp.

The Lee Carbide factory crimp die was designed to taper crimp and resize loaded ammo to SAAMI specifications. There have been positive comments from Lee die set users having chambering problems in that this die resolves all issues by ironing out all imperfections in loaded ammo to fit SAAMI chambers. This die is included in Lee's Deluxe Carbide 4 die set. If you have issues with loaded rounds that fail to chamber you can resize the loaded rounds with this die to produce serviceable rounds.

I personally don't use Lee Dies so I can't comment about them; many shooters use them with great success.

I think you're on the right track to producing quality reloaded ammo without unexpected issues and respect for safe practices.

Boomer :Fire:

yondering

07-02-2008, 01:43 PM

I'm not sure why some keep insisting that this round fired out of battery. A lot of 1911 barrels are unsupported at the feed ramp, and hot loads will show this. Here's a picture of a very hot load fired in my Springfield 1911, with the factory barrel. This load was a commercial cast 255gr SWC over 8gr Unique (not intentional).
You can clearly see the unsupported area of the chamber, which is very similar to the one shown in the first post of this thread. Just a little more pressure, and it would have blown just like that too.
You can also see the imprints on the case head from the extractor cutout, and the ejector. (Contrary to what the guy on the AR forum said, these same marks are visible on the case pictured in the first post.)

This round was fired with the gun fully locked into battery, and in a clean gun. Simple overpressure, no gun malfunction at all.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Misc/IMG_5909.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Misc/IMG_5903.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/Misc/IMG_5901.jpg

I think the case in the first post could have ruptured either from a deap seated bullet, or an overcharge resulting from a powder bridge. We probably can't know for sure, but both situations can be cured by proper die setup and careful reloading.

docone31

07-02-2008, 02:06 PM

Yondering, I agree. I will tell you what though, I have learned a lot here. I have had malfunctions, firing out of battery on my old Thompson semi auto, and various worn out .22lr autoloaders, to case head seperation, primer pocket signatures of all sorts.
It is good to see, and read all of this.
Personally, I have found a system that works for me. When I cast and load, I use the lowest charge of the next higher boolitt on the load sheet. Everything goes how, and where I want it to. My wife and myself enjoy going to the range, meeting folks, shooting at lots of paper, and just being part of the experience.
Back in the '80's, I was very competitive. I trickled my charges, weighed everything, wind flags, loads for a certain temperature.
I will post on this forum, and my wife will occasionally read it. I get to show her what can happen, and she gets to read the posts. When I tell her, she falls asleep.
I have had primer pockets flow into the firing pin shaft hole, case heads that had the machineing patterns imprinted on them, cases that ended up paper thin, Cracks, leading like no tomorrow.
All you folks out there, bring it on!!! I read it, and so does my wife. I never accomplished paper patching before I joined this forum, and with this forum my wife got to see me do it, and a few herself. Then we go to shoot it and it works.
Every part of this forum is really helping me help my wife understand this aspect of it. She kinda wants to shoot IPSC and I tell her she needs to know.
You folks really help a lot.

JIMinPHX

07-02-2008, 02:31 PM

Hi Jim

Your pics have a raised portion on the bottom of the case. If you look closely at my pics you will see the same thing. There is a raised portion on the "a" of the word "auto." Is that a sign of an overpowered charge?

Yes, that would be an indication that you had an overpressure charge in the cartridge. I did not notice the blip in your picture before, but I do see it now. If you compare two different pieces of brass that were fired from the same gun & they look very different, that is a sign of a single bad round.

Overpressure can be caused by too much powder (as the one in my picture was), the wrong powder, a boolit that is seated too deep in the brass, a constriction in the barrel or chamber, the wrong primer, the wrong boolit, or a fleck of crud stuck on the outside of the brass near the mouth. There are other possible causes too, these are just the ones that are on my hit list.

Regards,
Jim

TAWILDCATT

07-02-2008, 03:07 PM

I have my own ideas on this.however I will give my take.never had aa problem because I load light for accuracy and dont need to load heavy.my expert was Dinnan of conn. who recomended the swc be out about 1/32 and roll crimp on front band.I use 3.6 gr of 700X and 200 gr bullet.my instuctions was the bullet is out and hits the rifling as the slide closes.I too was in compitition but am not more than better than avarage.my cases are 30+ yrs old. I dont use taper crimp.I use a lee 1000 but prime with lee hand primer.I have been shooting 45 since 1960.

Larry Gibson

07-02-2008, 03:42 PM

I've seen this quite a few times. There are three causes. Firing out of battery, weakened cases at the web and an over charge.

From what you post and the pictures I'd say it was an over charge. The case looks as if it was fully supported in the chamber and you say it was still in the chamber with you having difficulty working the slide to eject it. The case rupture is at the ramp. If it had fired out of battery the case would have been ejected. As it was there was too much preesure for the case to release its grip on the chamber wall and it failed to function. The "soot" that was blown back is what vented from the rupture. It also appears the primer pocket is "blown". That is a sure indicater of an overcharge.

What type of press and loading technique did you use?

Larry Gibson

KCSO

07-02-2008, 04:28 PM

Easy Ed

This is how I have seated my wad cutters for years. I was taught this trick by Bill Laughridge back when he had to curl his mustache to pass inspection.

gcf

07-02-2008, 06:04 PM

At the risk of getting even further off the "So what the hell happened here?!!!" subject matter, & because I (and apparently many others, as well) find the seating depth / head space discussion of great interest, I would pose the following, to those of greater experience:

Regardless of how this cartridge was originally intended to be head spaced, is it possible that although jacketed ball & HP can not be seated past a specified COL (due to feed design limitations), the best (for accuracy) overall length for a "shouldered" bullet (LRN or SWC), is to the lands?

Although I've never done it that way, I'm beginning to think that assuming no feed issues, the answer is yes.

What about it Gents - any further thoughts?

35remington

07-02-2008, 09:22 PM

No disrespect intended to those gentlemen, but I wonder if their message wasn't misunderstood.

"and they all told me that the bullets in a .45ACP should be seated out to contact the rifling, as the case is shorter than the chamber, and inertia keeps the round from moving forward when struck by the firing pin. I believe they knew whereof they spoke."

No argument about what some bullets should do - seating to contact the rifling has worked for me with shouldered bullets as well. With many jacketed bullet popular with handloaders it isn't possible to touch the rifling to headspace with the bullet and have a functional round.

However, the case mouth does indeed hit the stop shoulder and headspace the round on factory jacketed ammo, as it has the shortest distance to go before it hits the headspacing surface. The primer does not receive the full "denting" firing pin blow until the cartridge is prevented from further movement by the headspacing surface. This is true of just about any arm, rifle or pistol. The cartridge does not remain at rest under the firing pin blow, and in fact cannot if there is room to move.

What handloaders do to headspace their rounds, especially with lead SWC's, is another matter entirely.

Regarding the 8 grain 255 SWC case bulging load, that should have supplied at least 1100 fps and maybe more with that bullet from a 1911.

After that shot I guarantee all the barrel lugs were bearing on the lug recesses in the slide.

With a decent throat, a bullet can have jump to the rifling or be pressed against the rifling origin and shoot well either way. A poorly cut throat might be helped by rifling contact but I don't know as I don't have a poorly cut 1911 throat. In theory with rifling contact the bullet is pointed straight at the barrel, but I don't know that 1911's or any pistol are accurate enough to prove the point.

Tumtatty

07-03-2008, 08:04 PM

I"ve made up a few test rounds.

I used 3.5gr titegroup (which is under the minimum listed the info that came with my Lee dies).

I seated the boolits with some of the top drive band showing (1.177)
I noticed that if I did not use the crimp die, the rounds would not seat completely in the barrel. They would certainly not drop out when I inverted the barrel.

I put a (i think) signicant crimp on the using the Factory Carbide Crimp Die. Now they drop into place nicely and fall out easily into my palm when I lift the barrel.

Do these look healthy?

http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/crimp1.jpg
http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/crimp2.jpg
http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/crimp3.jpg

docone31

07-03-2008, 08:26 PM

How well do they chamber. They look like my wadcutter reloads.
I do like to load hot and fast in my 1911. I start low, like you are, and work up. Slowly. I watch for pressure signs, chambering, and in general how the pistol feels while shooting. I use buffers on my pistols, mostly just to have them, but once in a while I am glad I had them.
I use Blue Dot on my .357s and 1911s. A medium load is an almost full case. Cycles well, very little carbon, I don't know about the flash I only shoot in day time.
They do look better.
This has been a great thread. I am sure I am not the only one who really read it.

35remington

07-03-2008, 08:55 PM

"Do these look healthy?"

Your load is light. Hopefully your 1911 has appropriate springs or it may not function semiautomatically. The ideal .45 ACP round is somewhat longer than 1.20" but this is not possible with many "bullseye" wadcutters of the type you have. This length cartridge requires a magazine with an earlier release point.

Measure the case diameter at the end, at the bullet. Tell us what you have. Taper crimp as little as possible. Ideal is just to turn in the case mouth flare and press the brass gently against the side of the bullet. Overcrimping does nothing good for bullet tension. Taper crimping does not help to hold the bullet in place - it's a chambering aid and not a bullet retention improvement.

Just running the bulleted cartridge in and out of the carbide ring at the very bottom of the LFCD will turn in the flare of the case with no need to taper crimp by running the cartridge all the way in the die and adjusting the crimping screw. With my die, so doing results in a mouth diameter of .472" which is sufficient. You may taper crimp an additional thousandth if it gives you warm fuzzies but there is no need for more unless somehow you intend to get an overly tight chamber really filthy with scraped off bullet lube, carbon and lead. Many reloaders over do the taper crimping bit.

A tight chamber is mostly a drawback on a 1911.

In theory, the LFCD loosens bullet pull. In actual practice it does not matter with my particular die and cast bullet loads.

Sorry for the slight thread diversion.

Texasflyboy

07-03-2008, 10:20 PM

My next thought is that "Brass has a lifespan, it weakens there each shot and your brass should be retired. It looks well used in the pictures.

I 2nd that. Look closely at the nomenclature on the base of the round that failed. The stamping is worn severely, like a coin that's well used. That case apears to have been loaded and fired many, many times. I would guess at least 20 or 30 times from the wear on the base.

I've seen failures just like this one many times. Brass has a lifespan, and it appears yours was past its useful life.

Tom in VA

DaveInFloweryBranchGA

07-03-2008, 10:32 PM

Turntatty,

It looks from the picture your crimp might be just a bit heavy. I use the same bullet with the same powder charge (3.5 grains) and crimp just a bit less than your picture shows near the mouth of the case. I'm getting great results, both function and accuracy wise with no pressure issues. The load is a pretty mild one, but you need to use a light and keep a close eye on the powder in the case as you seat the bullet. I think you easily have room to move up, but those loads have worked well for me in my Commander sized 1911.

Regards,

Dave

billyb

07-03-2008, 10:49 PM

texas, sorry but i have to disagree, the wear you discribe is the damage from the excess pressure, brass extrusion. the case was in good shape before the big light hit it. tumtatty,got to agree with Dave that is very heavy crimp. Bll

Echo

07-03-2008, 11:00 PM

+1 on heavy crimp - I seat mine a tad further out, maybe .020 more, and taper crimp lightly. But then I don't load mine to max - 3.6 gr BE & 452460.

Tumtatty

07-04-2008, 02:39 PM

docone31

07-04-2008, 05:16 PM

What is the OAL?
That looks like a rifling land mark on the case! Are there any others?

Tumtatty

07-04-2008, 05:19 PM

What is the OAL?
That looks like a rifling land mark on the case! Are there any others?

1.224

docone31

07-04-2008, 06:14 PM

I should have said case length.
It calls for .898

Cloudpeak

07-04-2008, 06:18 PM

The longest I ever loaded that bullet was 1.17". Otherwise, it would jam into the rifling on my Springfield.

The damage on the bullet nose is from hitting the ramp. The groove in the bullet looks like it jammed into the rifling. It's possible a bit of lead was shaved from the bullet and jammed into the brass causing the damage.

What's the diameter of your crimp? I crimp my loads to .469-.470" Load up some dummy rounds starting at the length shown in the picture (no primer or powder) and see how they fit into your barrel (with the barrel removed from the pistol). I'm fairly certain it won't fit. Re-seat the bullet until you're flush with the barrel hood. Drop a factory round in the barrel so you have something to compare to.

Cloudpeak

KYCaster

07-04-2008, 06:49 PM

I've tried using less crimp. But here is what happens:
http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/jam.jpg

The slide is locked forward and I have to pull back hard on it to eject the round. The round comes flying out with great force and both the boolit and the brass have been damaged (by what I'm not sure.)

What is the down side of using heavy crimp?

Tumtatty, that flat spot on the nose isn't anything to be concerned about. That happens when a soft lead boolit contacts the feed ramp.

The gouge on the shoulder and brass, on the other hand, has me baffled. I can't think of anything on a properly set up 1911 that would cause something like that.

I suggest that you take the gun to a COMPETANT pistolsmith and have him check the chamber and feed ramp for some kind of damage.

Whatever it is that is causing that gouge could easily lead to an out-of-battery condition, causing the case failure that started this thread.

It's obvious from your photos that you have some issues with your reloading technique that can cause reliability problems and can easily contribute to an over-pressure condition, but nothing you have shown, by it's self, should cause a case failure.

Have the gun thoroughly checked, then start working on your loading technique. If there is some mechanical problem with the gun, then you're just [smilie=b: by changing your loads.

Jerry

Echo

07-04-2008, 06:49 PM

Case length of .898 is MAX, and I have never measured one that long.

35remington

07-05-2008, 12:27 AM

Looks like the ejected round bashed into something on the way out, denting bullet and brass. Or struck something after being ejected. Doesn't look like a rifling mark - I can't see another mark where the lands would be bearing on the other parts of the bullet that is anywhere near that deep.

I agree, it's not lack of crimp that wedges the bullet tight in the gun - it's the bullet being grabbed by the rifling. Way too much bullet shoulder protrusion. Crimp is useful to press the brass back against the bullet, but too long OAL is the cause of your problems.

JIMinPHX

07-05-2008, 05:21 PM

texas, sorry but i have to disagree, the wear you discribe is the damage from the excess pressure, brass extrusion. the case was in good shape before the big light hit it.

+1 on what Billy B. says about the headstamp print -

If you look at the pictures that I posted, you will see that a single heavy load flattened the letters off the back of my star line brass. Both the cases shown in my example were new & on their first load. The letters on the two cases are now very different.

I have a box of general purpose .45ACP brass that I use for my casual target rounds. Many of the headstamps date back to the late 1980's when I bought the original Winchester white box ammo new. Most of the cases have been reloaded more than 20 times each. Of the roughly 1,000 cases in the box, I've only had about 3 fail from cracked necks in 20 years of reloading them. The print on the headstamps is still quite prominent.

MtGun44

07-06-2008, 12:58 PM

+1 for headspace on case mouth. Try firing some empty cases, you'll see that they
will fire just fine if even .060" too short with NO extractor installed, firing pin
travels about 1/4" or more past breech face. Normal brass is shorter than
chamber, either driven fwd by firing pin to chamber shoulder or with most
LSWC with boolit shoulder out about .025", shoulder can stop on rifling prior
to case on chamber, same net effect, distinction without a difference.

The damaged extracted round is VERY weird. In millions of rounds observed fired and
perhaps 300,000 .45acp fired personally, I have never seen this mark on
an ejected round. The only piece of metal that I can imagine that could do
this is the slide lock, and it would have to be very overlong and strangely
shaped. Does this gun have a extended/nonstock slide lock?

The original failure was fully closed chambered and overpressure, either too
much powder or boolit pushed back into case on feeding. I have personally
done this twice in 30 year with double charges, last time 25 yrs ago. Looked
exactly like the case shown, split grips and expanded mag into frame
holes, ruining it. If mag and grips were OK, I vote for less overpressure than
dbl charge, so boolit push in.

As far as .45 acp case life, I use them until the headstamp is battered off
by the ejector, at least 40 loadings with 4.7 Titegroup or 4.7 BE, or 5.7 W231
and I get maybe one cracked case per 500 loaded. IMHO the .45acp case life
is essentially unlimited with moderate, normal loads as listed above with
200 gr LSWC in normal 1911s. I never age out brass in .45acp, but definitely
do in rifles and some hi pressure pistols.

Don't get me started on Clark, who has done a number of crooked business
deals that I know of personally, wouldn't believe the man (now deceased) if
he said the sky was blue.

Bill

Bigjohn

07-06-2008, 08:57 PM

Tumtatty, I have had over twenty years experience handloading for and shooting 1911 .45 acp Pistols. Even with all this experience, I cannot consider myself as the ultimate expert on your experience.
Over the weekend just finished, this incident became a topic of discussion between myself and a friend with atleast twenty years more experience than myself. Even this does not make us experts.

Our opinion, based on the information you provided is; Excessive pressure caused by the projectile being pushed back into the casing during the loading cycle.

Inspection of the photo's of the damaged case indicate that it was fully seated in the chamber of the handgun at the time of ignition. It is also highly likely that the slide was in it's proper locked position at the moment of ignition.

The photo you posted of the loaded cartridge showed no shoulder protruding in front of the case mouth ( the image is a little hazy) and the crimp is applied over that front edge.
During the years I was shooting the .45 with Boolits weighing anything between 155 grs to 255grs, all the SWC's were seated with at least 1/16" of driving band protruding from the case mouth. I see in a later posting that you tried some loads with simular adjustments. Did they work? (that answer may lie in a posting I missed.)

IMO; if it had been a double charge, there would have been a LOT more damage to the handgun and possibly the shooter. Such as; magazine blown out of the handgun, grips split/shattered & slide/barrel damage etc.

I recall the published results of a test carried out many years back with a .38 special cartridge/handgun, a safe target load of REDDOT and only by varying how deep the seated the boolit, I believe they managed to destory the handgun. It would be interesting to reveiw this test here in light of this incident if another member can recall where it was published. Possibly in Rifle's Handloader!

Throughout the years of loading to shoot this cartridge I have experienced many issues with cases and other components.
I have used many different brands, some of which may not be available in the US, but most have been loaded until they split and become useless. Many loads were produced on progressive presses and an equal number on a single stage press. Of the possible 100,000 rounds loaded and fired through several .45's, less than a 100 would have cause a problem.

I would cull cases if they were too tarnished/rough, split, primers would not seat or the case would not grip the boolit firmly enough before crimp.

Some of the cases which would not grip the boolit before crimping, I could actually pull the boolit out with my fingers and crimping would not improve the grip on it.
This may have been a contributing factor in your mishap and allowed the boolit to be pushed back into the case thereby reducing the ignition chamber size and resulting in an increased pressure spike.

My co-contributor to this submission has experienced some problems with Remington (R-P) brass simular to what I have just described. I have also experienced it with other brands of cases; some Winchester (W-W), Fiochhi and some out of Arfica.

I have also had a Taper crimp die which when crimping the case, resized the boolit so when the case sprang back after crimping, the boolits were loose in their cases and could be partially pulled out or pushed in further.

The adjustment of overall cartridge length with SWC boolits is important as there is only a very small area which is used to guide them up the feed ramp of an auto pistol. The corner at the very front is that area, if it is not in the correct position then the pistol will not function properly (jam) or if it is seated too deeply a lot of rearward pressure is put on the nose of the boolit. Possibly forcing the boolit back into the case.

I hope this has not been too long winded and that you can understand the information within. It is Murray and my assessment of what happened based on our experiences with .45's and the information within the thread.

John.

jsizemore

07-06-2008, 09:35 PM

I guess I'll through my 2 cents in here. I too only shoot range brass. I shoot a 200 gr SWC with about .030 of the bullet shoulder sticking out past the case mouth to protect the brass on it's travel from the magazine to the chamber. I figured the lead didn't mind a little more abuse before it was slapped in the ass with heat and pressure and forced down a too small pipe with grooves. Especially since the case mouth is what the round headspaces off of. I'm curious if the round that blew up had been trimmed to proper length? Since I shoot range brass my gunsmith told me to get a chamber gage to check my rounds to see if they would function in my pistol which I considered important since I built it for personal protection. I did but I still had the occasional round that would not feed properly. So I pulled the barrel out of the gun and used it's chamber for my gage. I adjusted my expander and crimp dies so that they FIT MY CHAMBER. All my feed problems went away. If you ask me what happened to the ruptured case is it either had a double charge or the case was too long with the case mouth crimped smaller than the chamber shoulder and when the gun came to battery it turned the round into a plug/grenade. Range brass is an example of the old adage "you don't get something for nothing". Usually it takes alot of sweat to get it where it will shoot worth a darn. I shot a 32/40 with mine in a NRA Hunter Pistol Metallic Silhouette Match with range brass and 200 gr. lead SWC.

Tumtatty

07-06-2008, 10:48 PM

Here are some more pics of the jammed boolit as well as some of the barrel and frame. I hope they can help shed some light on this problem. I get these deep scratches unless I put a heavy crimp on the round.

Again, this is a stock Springfield 1911 Mil-Spec. No mods. I bought it new and have put less than 200 boolits through it. I've never fired a jacketed round through this pistol.

http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/jam24.jpg
http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/jam25.jpg

http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/barrel_inside1.jpg
http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/barrel_inside2.jpg
http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/barrel_inside3.jpg

http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/barrel1.jpg
http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/barrel2.jpg

http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebayhandle.jpg

Tumtatty

07-06-2008, 10:48 PM

Here are some more pics of the jammed boolit as well as some of the barrel and frame. I hope they can help shed some light on this problem. I get these deep scratches unless I put a heavy crimp on the round.

Again, this is a stock Springfield 1911 Mil-Spec. No mods. I bought it new and have put less than 200 boolits through it. I've never fired a jacketed round through this pistol.

http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/jam24.jpg
http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/jam25.jpg

http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/barrel_inside2.jpg
http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/barrel_inside3.jpg

http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/barrel1.jpg
http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/barrel2.jpg

http://www.gracekernersville.org/ebay/handle.jpg

docone31

07-06-2008, 11:14 PM

good clear shots of where the case headspaces. does not look like a projection in the chamber.
Curioser and curioser.
Sure looks like the lead did no damage to the bore. Nice and shiney.
I do not see where the marks would have come from. If I had not been informed otherwise, and it was the first time I saw the cartridge, I would say the digs in the case came from water pump pliers. The spaceing.
I can also see, if the bullet was too far out, that type of bullet would jam against the throat and just get locked up in the chamber.
The ruptured case, my money is on either over charge, or under charge. I have seen catastrophic failure with too light loads in a cartridge. I am not at all familiar with the powder you used. I have always just used Blue Dot. With starting load, Blue Dot is 3/4 full. It is almost a compressed case with starting load and 200gn flat nose. Anything over and you see it right away.
A light load, I have seen the firearm detonate. I was told the shock wave in the cartridge is not progressive, rather simultaneous. This generates tremendous pressure rapidly. An explosion, rather than igniting from the primer to the end of the case. With too light a load, the powder burns from rear to front, and front to rear at the same time. With the case horizontal, the powder levels and the primer can spread ignition the entire length of the case.
Sure is a purty piece. 200 rounds has not been rough on it.
Real purty.
It is awful hard to diagnose this way. Too many variables.
Eliminate the variables. Get some factory semi-wadcutters. Chamber them. Compare them to your loads. Eliminate the ammunition from the variable factor. Assemble the firearm. Watch the mechanics through magazine extraction through chambering.
I am going to bet though, the incident was over pressure. The case was real black where the rupture occurred. Smokeless powder is not usually that black.
Were you using a turret, or progressive press? Eliminate the variables.

Bigjohn

07-07-2008, 03:41 AM

Tumtatty,
I wish to ask some questions here which may help clear up opinions;

I am not familiar with Titegroup, never used it, never seen it, in the manual what is the listed maximum charge weight for your cartridge/boolit combination?

What is the measured length of the cartridge cases you are using; base to mouth?

Was the crimp on the loads being fired at the time of the incident in the same place as in the photo in post #6? (Which appears to be over the front of the driving bands?)

Did any of the boolits appear to load into their cases too easily? (Sometimes hard to detect on a progressive.)

Can you check any remaining loads from that batch for loose boolits which may push back into the case during feeding?

Have these boolits been sized and lubed or just tumble lubed?

On the extracted round in post #91, does that mark appear in more than one place on the round? (I don't believe it is a rifling impression.)

I think if you provide us with this and as much other information relating to problems which may have occurred during the reloading and shooting of these rounds; we (the Members) may solve the case.

The photo's of your handgun show no visible problems in chamber, barrel or frame

As I am not proficent enough with CAD to draw up what I am trying to explain; I will try my best with words.

If you can visualise a Round nose boolit; (these boolits loaded into cartridges normally feed up the ramps of auto pistol with a hitch), these present a constitant surface to the ramp during the cycling of the pistol.

A SWC boolit has a flat nose with a radius on the edge where it transitions from the nose to side of 'nose'. If you laid a drawing of the SWC over a drawing of a round nose boolit; where this radius (SWC) touches the outline of the RN detremines the over all length of a cartridge with that (SWC) boolit. This is how it was explained to me some years ago by one of the writers for a gun mag.

Hell!: I miss my COLT Series 80 Govt. Model .45ACP

I hope this helps,

John.

JIMinPHX

07-07-2008, 04:19 AM

Tumtatty,

It looks like you have one of those Brazilian Springfields. A buddy of mine has one of those. The fit-up on his was not up to par with what I’ve seen on the older Springfields that I’ve messed with. I would have that gun checked over by a smith, just as a precaution. That recommendation is not associated with the problem that you reported here, it is just because of where the gun came from. The quality of the steel on my friend’s gun is very good, but the factory fit-up was not.

That aside, can you please post a picture of the feed lips on the magazine that you were using with this gun? There are many subtle variations in 1911 feed lips & they affect feeding of various boolit types differently.

Tumtatty

07-07-2008, 12:40 PM

Hi Big John. Here are answers to your questions:

Tumtatty,
I wish to ask some questions here which may help clear up opinions;

I am not familiar with Titegroup, never used it, never seen it, in the manual what is the listed maximum charge weight for your cartridge/boolit combination?
Lee info states 5.4. I was using 5.0 so I thought I was safe.

What is the measured length of the cartridge cases you are using; base to mouth?
a random sampling showed lengths between .890-.895

Was the crimp on the loads being fired at the time of the incident in the same place as in the photo in post #6? (Which appears to be over the front of the driving bands?)No. The boolit was seated to the rim (not over) and less crimp was applied. The boolit in pic #6 has slightly more crimp, but less than is needed for the round to seat correctly.

Did any of the boolits appear to load into their cases too easily? (Sometimes hard to detect on a progressive.) Not that I noticed. I have had this happen with some .303 and Swede rifle rounds but none so far with the .45

Can you check any remaining loads from that batch for loose boolits which may push back into the case during feeding?I did have one round out of the magazine that contained the blow out that was pushed below the rim. I guess due to recoil. That makes me think this might have been the culprit.

Have these boolits been sized and lubed or just tumble lubed?
tumble lubed, sized to .452, re-tumble lubed

On the extracted round in post #91, does that mark appear in more than one place on the round? (I don't believe it is a rifling impression.)Post 81? No there is only one mark like that on each extracted round. The round seemed to chamer home just fine, but I could not easily eject it. I had to really pull on the slide and the round finally flew out (with a vengeance!).

oneokie

07-07-2008, 01:01 PM

Think we are getting somewhere now:

Posted by Tumtatty;

No there is only one mark like that on each extracted round
I take this to mean that more than one loaded cartridge exhibited this marking.?????

Posted by JIMinPHX;

That aside, can you please post a picture of the feed lips on the magazine that you were using with this gun? There are many subtle variations in 1911 feed lips & they affect feeding of various boolit types differently.
My WAG is that the lips of the mag are what the problem is. Unless the mark matches the corner/s of the barrel hood, the mag lips are the culprit.

JIMinPHX

07-07-2008, 06:34 PM

My WAG is that the lips of the mag are what the problem is. Unless the mark matches the corner/s of the barrel hood, the mag lips are the culprit.

My guess is that the lips are the original problem that caused the left corner of the hood to make the mark, but I'll wait until I see a picture of the mag before I stand on that opinion with both feet. I'm guessing that his mag doesn't have any cut outs half way up the lips & that it wasn't tuned for wadcutters, but like I said, I'll need to see the picture.

Bigjohn

07-07-2008, 09:48 PM

I would IMHO stick with my claim, "The boolits was pushed back into the case during the loading cycle; reducing the 'combustion' chamber volume within the case, causing the pressure to rise enough to cause the damage shown".

The book I check last night didn't list Titegroup (LEE's Red Covered manual), but a .4gr less than maximum is a safe loads under normal circumstances. Change one of the parameters and you reduce the safety margin. I spent yesterday evening re-reading all the postings in this thread to see if there was a snippet of info I missed.

From what I read; I don't believe the front end of the cartridge was stuck in the barrel at the moment of ignition. Apart from the boolit being pushed into the case, there MAY have been an issue with the integrity of the brass/case.

In ALL overpressure mishaps that I have seen; the primer will depart for parts unknown during the incident, some will still be in the primer pocket but held in place by the breech face, very loose; others will never be found.

Inspection of the initial photo's of the damaged case show the primer pocket being stretched towards the blow out and a number of cracks within which I would say are tearing caused by the sudden movement of brass towards the opening (point of blow out)

Tumtatty, If you intend to continue using range brass and especially these cases; I would give them a thorough inspection then load then via a single stage press.

Check for faults at each stage; sort cases by brand, primer seating problems try different primers, check for loose boolits (they may be slighty undersize) and crimp as a seperate stage. (I have a DILLON 550B which is currently unemployed as I prefer a single stage press.)

Any brass that does not pass this form of inspection should be crushed and thrown into the scrap brass bin.

Once you have a good batch, go back to your progressive but slow down the rate and inspect the powder in each case; check the weights (Powder) regularly even on a progressive and avoid distractions. (My DILLON is rated at producing 550 rounds per hour of operation; I only did about 300)

It is a change in the "feel" (Very hard to get the right words here) during a cycle of the press that should alert you to a problem. with a case on the press.

I have a good sense of 'feel' after approximately 100,000 rounds.

John.

Bigjohn

07-07-2008, 09:59 PM

Just a couple of extra points, The cartridge with the marking on the boolit and case; as explained, it required some abnormal effort to extract it from the chamber. From my experience, I would say it struck part of the pistol 'hard' on the way out; hence the mark. The softer materials will show this type of marking if they strike something harder than themself. We bruise don't we?

Damn it! I've forgotten something here, I will post it when I remember it. Bad case; CRS.

One more quection; What is the case length on the damaged case? Try on the undamaged side.

John

MtGun44

07-08-2008, 10:56 AM

More thinking - I know, I could hurt myself. :roll:

Any brass or lead on the bottom edge of the ejection port? Stock ejection
ports often bang up ejected cases, so most modern 1911 versions use
a lowered port. You mentioned this was a stock milspec pistol, so this
may be the issue. I was thinking that maybe the hard manual ejection is
hitting the case mouth/bullet on the bottom edge of the port, making this
mark. Almost all of my 1911s are lowered ports models, so I only have one
that could do this, and it is relatively rarely shot.

I'm thinking this is a impact mark from hitting the bottom edge of the
port on the way out, should be witness marks with trace brass/lead on the
port inside edge, fairly far fwd. May take good light and a magnifier to
see.

+1 on R-P .45 ACP brass being thinner and possibly lower bullet grip without a
really good crimp.

Bill

JIMinPHX

07-08-2008, 09:13 PM

Bill's opinion would be my second guess.

OBXPilgrim

07-08-2008, 09:49 PM

MiHec

07-09-2008, 03:40 AM

I think OBXPilgrim is right. I have the same problem with 8 shot magazine. If i load only 7 then is ok.

Echo

07-09-2008, 10:55 AM

+1 more on R-P brass - I can't use it, as it is so thin it doesn't grip the boolit - the boolit (sized .452) can be pushed in by hand.

And +1 for OBXPilgrim - makes total sense, but should be positively corroborated.

Tumtatty

07-09-2008, 01:55 PM

Geez, kinda realy looks to me like the bottom of the slide made that mark on the top of the top bullet in the magazine.

A good way to test that would be load the first into the gun with the slide back. Let the slide fly closed. That bullet won't have the mark. The rest of the bullets that got loaded after the slide was shut over them, will have the mark.

Is it noticibly hard to seat the mag in the gun?

Is the machining on the bottom of the slide rough, and lead streaked now?

Hmmm....Well that round will load fine when the slide closes on a new mag. Then it is hard to eject it.

The mags slide in very easily.

This seams to happen only with rounds that are not crimped sufficiently.

docone31

07-09-2008, 02:16 PM

How come you ain out there putting a few out?
I have had pop offs in mine. They make you sit back and take another look for sure.
Try some factory ball in it. Compare diameter, and length of the brass. Might be part of the breaking in process also. Reloaded ammo, possibly an overcharge, tight chamber.
If it were me, I would fire a round, look at the recovered brass from that chambering. Observe it before and after.
That sure is a purty pistol just sitting there.
Did you check the round with the barrel out?

hotwheelz

01-19-2009, 02:13 AM

Well unfortunatley I have joined the Kaboom club mine seems very similar to this one and Im chasing my tail trying to figure it out. First the specs
-gun colt 1991a1 commander w/ Ed brown Barrell installed by profes. have shot 1000's of rounds threw it
- case unknown number of reloads
-bullet was a 200gr swc and I use a Lee FCD O.A.L. 1.2"
- powder was 4.5gr of titegroup was loaded on a dillon 650 with powder check
-primer was winchester of new manufacture

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo241/Hothweelzz/Picture104.jpg
http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo241/Hothweelzz/Picture103.jpg
http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo241/Hothweelzz/Picture105.jpg
http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo241/Hothweelzz/Picture106.jpg

I am ok no broken parts on me took some scrap to the face and some ringing in the hands thanks GOD !!! The only thing that hurt is my pride
Gun has no broken parts it didnt even yard the magazine , I should say seems ok I didnt fire anymore ammo after Im going to take it into the Smithy this week to be checked over..
When I have seen pics of double charged ammo and heard the tales seems like it would yard the magazine and blow grip panels off. so on . I had confidence in the powder check on my dillon now Im questioning that as well as my procedure when reloading. I have talked with alot of the guys that were at the match today alot of opinions and that maybe all I end up with but right now Im just searching for answers. Any insight is welcomed ....

I have read alot but not all of the posts from this thread

waksupi

01-19-2009, 03:27 AM

Well unfortunatley I have joined the Kaboom club mine seems very similar to this one and Im chasing my tail trying to figure it out. First the specs
-gun colt 1991a1 commander w/ Ed brown Barrell installed by profes. have shot 1000's of rounds threw it
- case unknown number of reloads
-bullet was a 200gr swc and I use a Lee FCD O.A.L. 1.2"
- powder was 4.5gr of titegroup was loaded on a dillon 650 with powder check
-primer was winchester of new manufacture
I am ok no broken parts on me took some scrap to the face and some ringing in the hands thanks GOD !!! The only thing that hurt is my pride
Gun has no broken parts it didnt even yard the magazine , I should say seems ok I didnt fire anymore ammo after Im going to take it into the Smithy this week to be checked over..
When I have seen pics of double charged ammo and heard the tales seems like it would yard the magazine and blow grip panels off. so on . I had confidence in the powder check on my dillon now Im questioning that as well as my procedure when reloading. I have talked with alot of the guys that were at the match today alot of opinions and that maybe all I end up with but right now Im just searching for answers. Any insight is welcomed ....I have read alot but not all of the posts from this thread, Im not sure if was an out of

Kinda looks like your barrel has a ramp that someone got a bit carried away with. Probably do ok with light loads in a comp gun. Full power stuff will probably show a repeat. Got a picture of the ramp?
Glad you didn't get hurt!

Boerrancher

01-19-2009, 08:02 AM

Hmm, I think I see a connecting string here between the two Kabooms. Many of you are going to sneer and jeer for me saying this, but the problem came from loading a small amount of fast burning powder on a progressive press. If powder hung in the measure it would be easy to be one and a half or two grains off, which would cause an excessive charge, and on the one that was short you probably wouldn't notice the difference in it except it was a flier. My suggestion to anyone who is using a progressive is to stay away from fast burning powders. Use powders that nearly fill the case. I know of too many guns that have been blown up by progressive presses and fast burning powders.

Best wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

Ricochet

01-19-2009, 08:16 AM

What caused a similar burst case in a 1911 for me was a bullet that got pushed into the case too far, with a load of N100 that was on the hot end already.

Willbird

01-19-2009, 08:37 AM

HangFireW8

01-19-2009, 09:28 AM

[QUOTE=EasyEd;359496]
It's not hard to sort out range pickup brass.

Multiple fired brass has multiple extractor marks on the inside of the rim.

Glock fired brass has a pot belly on one side.

Discard both.

-HF

Silicon Wolverine

01-19-2009, 10:40 AM

ive had 9mm come out of my glock looking like that. it ended up being a primer problem. i had a flat of CCI primers that had somehow become mixed. the compound inside the primers was green instead of red in about 1/3 of them. i called CCI and they said that the green primers were small RIFLE not small pistol and to not use them in a handgun. you may want to check yours and see if you have the same problem as me.

SW

01-19-2009, 12:28 PM

I'm a little late to this discussion but I'll weigh in as I've shot up 16 lb of titegroup using 5.1 gr behind the 200 gr. H&G #68, which reliably makes major out of any 5" 1911, 850 to 875 fps. Not on the ragged edge at all. Also, I've seen a number of these 1911 case head blow outs and IMHO they've been due to three basic causes:

1. the top round in a guys carry mag which has been loaded and unloaded 50 times prior to matches without being fired or swapped out. At the end of the year, (or two years), he finally decides to shoot up that carry ammo to replace it and that first round blows the case head over the ramp as the bullet has been pounded far enough back into the case to push the pressure through the roof. I've seen this twice and in both cases metal was gone from the blown area and the primner pocket was stretched way out.

2. Joe home gun smith "polishes" his feed ramp with a dremel and grinds it far enough forward that the unsupported area extends forward of the case web. This usually results in a "peeled back" lip of metal at the blow out, but the rest of the case looks fairly normal.

3. The handloader has applied too much taper crimp on a bullet seated too deep so that he's crimping forward of the front drive band. This tapers the case and the bullet allowing the bullet to get shoved back into case, again raising the pressure enough to blow out the case over the unsupported area of the web. Metal is gone from the blow out and the primer pocket is stretched out. I've seen this several times, and I've seen maybe twice as many instances where the round jammed the gun and was not fired, but the bullet was pushed well back into the case

I've only seen two 1911 KB's traced to a double charge, one on the station next to me at a bullseye match, and one at an action pistol match. in both cases everything was blown out through the mag well and the fired case head was pretty much destroyed.

Looking at the excellant pictures of the first instance here my guess is that the taper crimp over the front drive band allowed the bullet to be set back increasing the pressures. In looking at the feed ramp and the later picture of the extracted round, annular machining marks are clearly visible on the feed ramp and the nose of the extracted round shows a dent with these same marks and they are very clear, not smeared. I believe that the bullet nose hit the ramp, stopped and was driven into the case until the case lip hit the ramp allowing the cartridge to feed. The resulting deformation of the case mouth caused the jam, and made extraction difficult. the groove impression may have been caused by the edge of the ejection port as a result of the difficult extraction. All of the brass shown from the first occurance appears to show some ramp rash on the edge of the case mouth.

BD

Hardcast416taylor

01-19-2009, 12:30 PM

I go along with the double charge of powder. It can happen to anybody if their concentration is distracted for even an instant when loading. This is why I use bulky powders, reload by my self, have no radio on, and stop loading if anyone enters my bat cave. RandRat, how are the rounds supposed to stay in place when you are shoving the current issue of Guns & Ammo into the pistol instead of a clip?:kidding: Concentration is the most important factor to use when reloading. :!::!::!::!: Robert

bobk

01-19-2009, 02:08 PM

+1 what Boerrancher said. Progressive loader or not, I load so that a double charge will make a mess on the bench, not in my hand. I do agree that the bullets were seated too deeply. I got into a discussion with someone about headspace in the .45, but suffice it to say, I seat the bullets so that the OAL controls the headspace, with lead bullets particularly. This, and medium burning rate powders, give me the loading safety I want.

Bob K

silvertip47

01-19-2009, 04:02 PM

bobk

01-19-2009, 04:19 PM

Scrap brass I crunch with a pair of pliers I keep by the bench. That way, nobody stupid, including me, will ever use them again.
Bob K

Willbird

01-19-2009, 06:20 PM

I have come across some brass that had the flash holes drilled out. I think that this was for
plastic and wax bullets. I think I have read somewhere this will cause high pressure if loaded
normally with powder and cast or j-boolit. These that I have are 45 acp and they are in the
scrape brass bucket.

Tom

The winclean ammo that is loaded with lead free primers and tmj bullets has larger flash holes. This should not cause an issue in 45 acp, in 17 remington a large flash hole might be an issue, but not at 16,000 psi or less ??

Bill

seabat0603

01-19-2009, 06:32 PM

I have been shooting and custom building 1911's for more years than I can remember. I have seen this before several times and every time I have it was due to an over charge of powder. I do reload and cast my own bullets as well, and there is nothing wrong with picking up range brass as long as you inspect it. I color code my personal brass with a wide faced marker ( say in blue ) and range brass in red. This keeps them separate and easy to inspect should there be a problem. A lot of folks that are new to reloading make the mistake of not personally eye checking every powder drop before seating the bullet. The end result is your problem. I don't know if you use a single stage or a progressive press. My suggestion would be to weigh your completed rounds on a good scale if your using a progressive press. If using a separate powder measure, physically look to make sure all cases look to be filled the same. On occasion, pull a random case (say every 10th ) and measure the powder that it receives to ensure your powder measure is holding the setting you set. I use a redding bench rest model br powder measure. You can get both pistol and rifle powder gauges for it. It's one of the best they make. I am glad to hear your ok and I would consider having a competent person look at your gun to make sure it's ok. seabat0603

felix

01-19-2009, 06:37 PM

Bridging occurs ONE full percent minimum in every brand of the drop type dispensers. You can take that FROM the bank on a guaranteed basis. Nature of the beast. ... felix

kamikaze1a

01-19-2009, 09:19 PM

I would say it was a double charge...note the flattening of the head stamp. The "O" is almost erased and you can see how the brass flowed into the "T" from the pressure... Also note how the brass flowed into the extractor recess.

atr

01-19-2009, 09:29 PM

+2 what Boerrancher said
there is no way I would load small amounts of fast burning powder with a progressive
even with my single throw lyman powder measure I still get some hung up flakes which can throw off successive charges....so I always scale weigh each charge...might take me longer but its worth the trouble

hotwheelz

01-19-2009, 10:35 PM

I understand what everyone is saying about fast powder and progressives but thats why I have a powder check die. 1000's of rounds and now this I believe as many of you that I SCREWED up when loading seems funny i went to the 650 from the 550 and sold myself on it with the powder check dies.. I had gotten away from titegroup for almost a year I had switched over to red dot b/c of the case fill out but still have over 4lbs of titegroup left so I have been loading with it for the last few months to use it up. I hope that someone who hasnt had this happen takes a look at this thread and learns from a few mistakes that I wont be making again. Will

PatMarlin

01-20-2009, 02:01 AM

The brass in the start of this thread is horribly worn. Looks like it tumbled down river in California's motherload. No way I would use brass like that. Hard to tell but the later brass looks fatiqued also.

Russel Nash

01-20-2009, 02:23 AM

somebody on page 2, I think it was wrote this:

Contrary to popular belief, the .45ACP does not headspace on the case mouth

That person went on to say that the round actually headspaces off the bullet.

My own personal experience shooting 9X19 (Parabellum aka Luger) in a 9X23 chambered 1911 leads me to believe that the round actually headspaces off the extractor hook.

I might be wrong and YMMV.

kamikaze1a

01-20-2009, 02:59 PM

The worn look of the base was caused but the casing being driven back against the slide by excessive pressure. Note the deformation and how the brass "flowed" into the extractor recess... What caused the excessive pressure is debatable. It could have been detonation but I would guess a double charge. It would be interesting to see some of his other fired brass.

Headspaced via case mouth with 45acp and 9mm...

GSM

01-20-2009, 06:45 PM

"What caused the excessive pressure is debatable." Yup. If the flow into the extractor area ocurred with this firing and was not on the brass previously.

One odd thing though, Look at the amount (area) of brass outside of the rupture and compare it to the open area of the rupture.

Also, it may be the angle of the picture, but the primer pockect looks very ovally, with a pronounced tighter curve at the rupture area.

There was a lot discussion on 45 brass yield and sudden failures on the Bullseye bulletin board a year or so ago. Given that bullseye shooters are about as frugal as casters, the discussion centered around how many times a piece of brass could be loaded. One gentleman made note that it is extremely difficult to eyeball a piece of sized brass to tell if the brass had reached its fatigue limit. Even with "light" short line loads, you have the opportunity to hold 10,000+ psi in your bare hand. It wasn't so much the intensity of the load as the number of cycles the brass had to tolerate. The same person ended up making a check gauge to run the shot, but not sized, brass through. If the brass would not pass through it, it could be considered fatigued and subject to a sudden failure.

Any way, too many variables on this one to make a definite anything on.

Headspacing on an extractor is the best way to break the extractor. Extractors remove the empty from the chamber only - that's all they are meant to do.

KYCaster

01-20-2009, 11:33 PM

To begin with...there are two, and only two, possible causes for the case failures shown here. They are 1: excess pressure and 2: an unsupported case.

In the second case there are two reasons for the case to be unsupported. 1: too generous a feed ramp in the barrel and 2: firing out of battery.

Here is a pic of a barrel I've had since 1985.

I have fired well over 250,000 rounds of IPSC major loads (both old 175 and new 165 pf) through this barrel without incident and it has a very generous feed ramp.

It's kind of hard to tell from my pic, but if you compare the unsupported area of the case in my barrel to the area of displaced metal in Tumtatty's pic it's obvious that his feed ramp is not too large and his round was not fired out of battery.

In Hotwheelz's pic it's not so easy to see the shape of the feed ramp, but it doesn't appear that was a problem. His also shows much greater pressure than Tumtatty's because of the brass displaced by the extractor and the texture on the surface of the brass from being ironed against the chamber wall.

In both cases the primer pockets and flash holes are oval because the cases stretched into the feed ramps.

Yondering's pic in post #76 clearly shows a case fired out of battery. Sorry Yondering, it's either out of battery or the feed ramp is cut WAY too much, and if that's the case then all of your brass would look like that. By comparing that with Tumtatty's case it's easy to see the difference.

I may be over-simplifying this, but I don't think so. I've seen many cases fail from metal fatigue, but all of them resulted in cracks in the case walls and not in blow outs into the feed ramp. If the case is bulged to the point it will cause it to fail on the next firing then I don't think you could get it into a sizing die; and I've seen many cases like that. (see Yondering's pic)

I've fired many hundreds of thousands of rounds of 45ACP, some of them at pretty intrepid pressures, and I've yet to have a catastrophic failure of a case like those shown. That doesn't mean that it won't happen tomorrow, and the thought of it scares me enough that I do everything I can to prevent it. First and foremost is, I will not put a bullet into a case that I have not looked into to see the level of the powder charge.

That's just my take on the situation.

Jerry

Oops...no pic.

KYCaster

01-20-2009, 11:37 PM

to begin with...there are two, and only two, possible causes for the case failures shown here. They are 1: Excess pressure and 2: An unsupported case.

In the second case there are two reasons for the case to be unsupported. 1: Too generous a feed ramp in the barrel and 2: Firing out of battery.

Here is a pic of a barrel i've had since 1985.

I have fired well over 250,000 rounds of ipsc major loads (both old 175 and new 165 pf) through this barrel without incident and it has a very generous feed ramp.

It's kind of hard to tell from my pic, but if you compare the unsupported area of the case in my barrel to the area of displaced metal in tumtatty's pic it's obvious that his feed ramp is not too large and his round was not fired out of battery.

In hotwheelz's pic it's not so easy to see the shape of the feed ramp, but it doesn't appear that was a problem. His also shows much greater pressure than tumtatty's because of the brass displaced by the extractor and the texture on the surface of the brass from being ironed against the chamber wall.

In both cases the primer pockets and flash holes are oval because the cases stretched into the feed ramps.

Yondering's pic in post #76 clearly shows a case fired out of battery. Sorry yondering, it's either out of battery or the feed ramp is cut way too much, and if that's the case then all of your brass would look like that. By comparing that with tumtatty's case it's easy to see the difference.

I may be over-simplifying this, but i don't think so. I've seen many cases fail from metal fatigue, but all of them resulted in cracks in the case walls and not in blow outs into the feed ramp. If the case is bulged to the point it will cause it to fail on the next firing then i don't think you could get it into a sizing die; and i've seen many cases like that. (see yondering's pic)

i've fired many hundreds of thousands of rounds of 45acp, some of them at pretty intrepid pressures, and i've yet to have a catastrophic failure of a case like those shown. That doesn't mean that it won't happen tomorrow, and the thought of it scares me enough that i do everything i can to prevent it. First and foremost is, i will not put a bullet into a case that i have not looked into to see the level of the powder charge.

That's just my take on the situation.

Jerry

oops...no pic.

10774

kamikaze1a

01-21-2009, 12:29 AM

I wonder though, if case fatigue would have caused the wiping of the headstamp? In my experience, that is usually an indication of excessive pressure as is the brass flowing into the extractor. I've seen shells that fatigue ruptured and the primers weren't excessively flattened. And these were before progressive powder feeds and some were loaded with bulky powders so a double charge would be almost impossible...and is why I think likely double charge but detonation a possiblity.

What ever the cause, bad news!

GSM

01-21-2009, 01:09 AM

snuffy

01-21-2009, 04:08 AM

My experience makes it 3. Or can I join this club of .45 kabooms?

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/P1030120_edited.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/P1030115_edited.JPG

http://photos.imageevent.com/jptowns/arrow/websize/P1030121_edited.JPG

This happened 3-4 weeks ago. It's a springfield armory 1911. Yes, I do know why, at least I'm 90% sure. This was load development, using a bulk surplus powder I got from Jeff Bartlet at gi brass. It is Chinese manufactured for a ammunition factory, it was an over run, the surplus being sold to Jeff. It's designation is NM-04. It's a flake powder with a burning rate like dupont PB and alliant green dot.

I started at 4.8 grains, ended up at 5.6, under a west coast 200 SWC plated bullet. I loaded 10 at 4.8, 5.0, on up to 5.6. The first one at 4.8 blew as in the pic. I wear glasses in order to see, so my eyes were protected. I felt some powder hit my right cheek, something hit my right lens as well. I had black soot all over my hands. The mag stayed in the pistol, the top 2 shells had their bullets seated deeper by a bit from the hot gases. The slide was locked back, but that shell was still stuck in the chamber. It took a cleaning rod and a couple sharp taps to get it out. No damage to the gun, if it had wood grips, they would have been shattered.

I loaded them on a new lee cast turret, with a pro auto disc, and safety prime. While choosing which disc would dispense the correct charge, instead of dumping a weighed charge back in the hopper, I must have put it back in the case. Then proceeded to charge it again when putting it back in the shell holder and returning to the sequence. So instead of 4.8, I had 9.6 grains of the surplus powder.

I pulled ALL the shells apart, while thinking what could have gone wrong. I'd used that powder before, it behaves exactly like either green dot or PB. I did not think it was simply an overload. So i dropped way down to 3.8, went up in .2 grain increments to 4.8. The 3.8 wouldn't even work the slide! it wasn't until 4.4 that the slide would fire, eject, feed another shell and lock back after the last round. Actually the 4.8 load is nice and accurate, pleasant to shoot. I may try 2-4 tenths more to see if the group tightens more.

Us older loaders need a kick in our complacency now and then, to get our attention. I need to pay more attention to details. I also need a light to shine right on the top of the shells so I can eyeball the powder charges. Yes, that powder could easily be triple charged and not spill over the top of the shell, at least at 4.8 it could.

I need to take some better pics of that case. My digital camera can't get closer than 9" to anything. But it looks a lot like the other two, you can see the beginning of the feed ramp just in front of the blown out area. The primer flash hole is 3X as big as normal, oval shaped and cracked around the inside edges.

catkiller45

01-21-2009, 10:13 AM

That looks like a double charge to me..It happens to the best of us......I was always told to not crimp the case as the case head spaces on the mouth of the case?????????????
I see that happen to a guy with a 357 once..He didn't get hurt but his revolver blew to pieces....

IcerUSA

01-21-2009, 12:07 PM

One thing I have had happen is too much crimp , allowed the case to enter the barrel just a few thousands and when I pulled the trigger the brass became wedged , my cases didn't blow but was very close to it . I think the min for the crimp on the brass is around .471 or .472 so that it can't get into the barrel . Just my take from the photo .

Keith

docone31

01-21-2009, 01:26 PM

I have not had that happen, but, I have worried about it.
I use the larger powders so a double charge is not that much of an issue. I stick to Blue Dot.
Most times, I toss the load myself rather than useing a progressive press.
In my magnums, I always toss the powder, with my ACP I do use the press on occasion for powder chargeing, but I look a lot at the amount/level in the case.
I have always done it this way, and so far, no issues. No empty cases, no overloaded cases.
Lucky.

kamikaze1a

01-21-2009, 02:58 PM

"I wonder though, if case fatigue would have caused the wiping of the headstamp? "

We can't make any judgment, as we do not know the condition of the round before it was fired. It may have been fairly well wiped before it failed.

If you look at the pics, you will see how the brass "flowed" into the extractor recess. That, to me, tells me that the headstamp wiping probably occurred at at that time...

lewellan2

01-21-2009, 04:48 PM

looks like the case is too long and not fully allowing the bolt to close all the way. surprised the fireing pin struck the primer. or the case may need to be taper crimped. but any case you don't know intimately, and causes frustration in loading is suspect and I wouldn't use them.
Dano

Hipshot

01-21-2009, 07:46 PM

The brass has been loaded/fired once too often and you have a case of insipient (sp) head seperation. the 1911 has a chamber where the head of the case isn't fully supported and with the old brass that is where the case let go.

Hipshot

NHlever

01-21-2009, 08:24 PM

I haven't read through the whole thread, but I do have a comment. If you are new to 1911 loading you may not know how to check a loaded round for headspace. Disassemble the gun, and place a loaded round in the barrel(only!!) The loaded round should be flush with the barrel extension as shown in KYcaster's picture. If the case is crimped too heavily ( and it looks that way to me) the round can sit deeper in the chamber, and fire in that position. If case expansion halts the rearward motion of the case in the chamber (likely) then there will not be room in the rifling for the case to release the bullet, and pressures can skyrocket quickly. Often, in 1911's, the extractor will keep that from happening, but it still is possible, and a sample of the loaded rounds should always be checked.

kamikaze1a

01-21-2009, 08:32 PM

Those pics are not good examples of incipient separation... Incipient separation is normally seen as a bright ring about the base and above the rim. Usually caused by improper sizing or excessive headspace but can be caused by excessive pressure too. Incipient means early stages or beginning...

TexRebel

01-21-2009, 08:36 PM

my thought is a over charge of powder, and old brass,

MtGun44

01-22-2009, 01:34 AM

snuffy

01-22-2009, 03:14 PM

Old brass has nothing to do with it. Too much powder or bullet pushing
back into case during feeding. Much more likely double charge.

Old brass gets harder, not softer. I have some brass that has been fired
so many times that the headstamp is beaten off of the brass from hitting
the ejector so many times. They will crack eventually as they get harder
and harder from resizing.

Me too! I have some .45 brass in the same condition, so beat up you can't read the headstamp. It eventually cracks at the mouth, ends up in the recycle bucket. The brass in my kaboom was loaded 3-4 times, just getting broke in!

Here's a question; Has anyone ever done tests on how much pressure increases when a bullet gets pushed back into the case? I'm talking about the "bullet/boolit hitting the feed ramp" scenario, with too little crimp or in tumtatty's case the shell crimped over the shoulder of the boolit. I've heard that caution so many times, I often wondered just how much the pressure climbs. The thing is, I doubt it goes up enough to cause what we saw here.

I understand the reasoning, the decrease in combustion space results in higher pressure. Same thing that's done in engines, shaving the heads increases compression ratio, increasing horsepower AND combustion pressure.

I just don't see how .020 deeper seating jumping pressure that much. To find out, you'd need a pressure gun and some careful reloading, seating deeper and recording the results.

01-22-2009, 04:32 PM

First, I don't buy the "old brass" argument. I have over 50 firings on the first lot of 500 WW brass I bought with my first Kimber. Some of them are still in the "plinker" bucket and will be loaded again. When they die they split along the length of the case from the mouth back, usually when being expanded on the press. When they split in the gun it's a non-event, you never realise it until you inspect them before loading them the next time. I've had Amerc brass do this on the first reloading, (before I learned to sort it out).

Second, I don't think the case blow-outs we're looking at here are at catastrophic pressure levels. Sure, they are well over pressure, but it's the brass letting go over the unsupported area at the ramp. The two KB's I've seen which were verified to be double charges, (by pulling the other bullets from that lot and finding other cases with double charges), both blew everything out of the mag well and the case at fault was in little bits and pieces, (some in the shooter's cheeks). There was no case head left to examine. They also involved other damage to the gun, sprung slides and cracked frame rails.

I've seen the results of a couple of .40 Glock KBs which were blamed on the barrel design's lack of support for the case head, and both of those guns were wrecked. These 3 instances in 1911s seem much more controlled. That's why I'm leaning toward the bullet setback theory in these cases.

BD