Think I May Be Done With BH209---Long winded sad story

[Themoose]

Beeing a "geezer" I have developed patience out of necessity over the years... but as my hero Popeye said, " I stands all I can stands and I can't stands no more!"... I've shot several pounds of BH209 since it came out and only previously had issues with one rifle... A Knight 50 Disc that would occasionally FTF only igniting part of the charge and you could watch the bullet leave the barrel... recently I revisited a couple of inlines with paperpatching knowledge picked up from Ron and Roger to fine tune... well, it all went down hill from there.... on a trip to the range last week my pet rifle FTF on the first shot... never happened before... so I removed charge and started from scratch... fired enough to get new scope on paper then switched to the Knight 50... about 1 in 4 were the old squib load thing from the past... thinking it was issue with loose fit I left the range and returned to the man cave for some changes to both bullet, wrap and wads to get a better fit on the 50... Today was full of optimism.. wrong thing to do... first shot on favorite rifle again, not even a squib load.. just primer pop... not my first rodeo... I had already dried the bore thoroughly and fired 3 209 primers thru the critter... dismantled it, cleaned it out and reloaded... went bang, but left a whole lot more residue than normal..(I'm anal and wipe between shots)... thinking it was primer issue, I changed brands... and all seemed well for a couple of shots... I was careful to load out of the newly opened(but out of my stash) can... remembering last week's episode had both older charges and new ones... then another squib.... frustrated, I went to the 50 with the new very tight fitting loads... about 50% ignition... screw it.... back to 777.... I packed a can of that too... went bang each time I pulled the trigger... only issue was the crud ring... which I learned to deal easily with until BH209 entered the picture..... thought how it was a good thing that this happened at the range instead of during a hunt..... so without more consternation, I am going backward... and 777 will be my go to propellant... just to let you know also, that the only variable that I can think of was the newly opened container of BH209, it still had the seal unbroken under the cap... it had no clumps and looked just fine.... I made no changes to either rifle, breech plugs, vent liners or primers used... both my rifles prefer Win209's over Fed 209A and seal very nicely, do not soot up or are hard to extract from the bolt.

Hopefully, tomorrow will be a better day... now of to KP before the boss revokes my pass

Kindest regards,

TheMoose

[59sharps]

Beeing a "geezer" I have developed patience out of necessity over the years... but as my hero Popeye said, " I stands all I can stands and I can't stands no more!"... I've shot several pounds of BH209 since it came out and only previously had issues with one rifle... A Knight 50 Disc that would occasionally FTF only igniting part of the charge and you could watch the bullet leave the barrel... recently I revisited a couple of inlines with paperpatching knowledge picked up from Ron and Roger to fine tune... well, it all went down hill from there.... on a trip to the range last week my pet rifle FTF on the first shot... never happened before... so I removed charge and started from scratch... fired enough to get new scope on paper then switched to the Knight 50... about 1 in 4 were the old squib load thing from the past... thinking it was issue with loose fit I left the range and returned to the man cave for some changes to both bullet, wrap and wads to get a better fit on the 50... Today was full of optimism.. wrong thing to do... first shot on favorite rifle again, not even a squib load.. just primer pop... not my first rodeo... I had already dried the bore thoroughly and fired 3 209 primers thru the critter... dismantled it, cleaned it out and reloaded... went bang, but left a whole lot more residue than normal..(I'm anal and wipe between shots)... thinking it was primer issue, I changed brands... and all seemed well for a couple of shots... I was careful to load out of the newly opened(but out of my stash) can... remembering last week's episode had both older charges and new ones... then another squib.... frustrated, I went to the 50 with the new very tight fitting loads... about 50% ignition... screw it.... back to 777.... I packed a can of that too... went bang each time I pulled the trigger... only issue was the crud ring... which I learned to deal easily with until BH209 entered the picture..... thought how it was a good thing that this happened at the range instead of during a hunt..... so without more consternation, I am going backward... and 777 will be my go to propellant... just to let you know also, that the only variable that I can think of was the newly opened container of BH209, it still had the seal unbroken under the cap... it had no clumps and looked just fine.... I made no changes to either rifle, breech plugs, vent liners or primers used... both my rifles prefer Win209's over Fed 209A and seal very nicely, do not soot up or are hard to extract from the bolt.

Hopefully, tomorrow will be a better day... now of to KP before the boss revokes my pass

Kindest regards,

TheMoose

All I can say is nothing better than real BP.

[NSB]

Knight doesn't recommend using BH209 in this guns. A little research will tell you that. I've seen other people get the same result you're getting when they try to use it. I use it in my TC Encore with no problems at all. Different breech plug set-up.

[ShooterAZ]

I'm using BH209 in a T/C Impact, and I couldn't be happier. It is one flat shooting, hard hitting, clean burning, accurate son of a gun. Sorry it isn't working out for you in your gun.

[54bore]

Reading this (and others) makes me feel REALLY fortunate to have easy access to all of the REAL BP i can afford to buy. Thank you Buffalo Arms!! They dont carry ANY substitutes, only Real stuff, every brand, and variation.

[54bore]

If i were to HAVE to choose a sub, it would be exactly what Idahoron uses, Pyrodex P

[rodwha]

I'm one that greatly dislikes Pyrodex. It works fine and I like the smell, but the fouling has an odd almost sticky feel to it. I don't notice it much in my rifle but my pistols I can't help but notice it.

I also use my powder through my .50 cal rifle and .44/.45 cal revolvers and demand a higher output than Pyrodex P provides. I like T7, but usually use Olde Eynsford as it's cheaper.

I've not dealt with this "crud ring" in my guns. My percussion rifle, using Rem #10's has either not produced it or it's so minimal that it's not noticed (I swab my rifle every 3-5 shots). And I don't clean my pistols at the range and usually get no less than 6 cylinders full and often many more.

But if this crud ring is an issue I'd suggest trying Olde Eynsford by Goex. It should give you very similar results with the same volume of powder from what I understand. And it's cheaper.

[Themoose]

I still use Swiss & Goex in Flint & caplock. Only one place to get it locally. When I shot a lot BB ought a case and shipped to my front door...But that was like my hair line and athletic figure........A long, long , long time ago.

[tomme boy]

I've sent emails into Accurate about this several times and they never reply back. It is one of the worst subs made unless the gun is made just for it. What a joke!

[rfd]

i will not shoot subs as i think all of them are inferior when compared to any good real black powder - for me, there really and truly is nothing that can compare to real black powder for muzzleloaders and 19th century breech loaders. make mine swiss black powder 3f and 1-1/2f.

it is impossible for me to buy black powder in person as none is available within a hundred miles at least. this is where mail order is best, while mail order for bp still exists. buying in 25# lots typically means no shipping or hazmat fees. yer looking at spending between $400 and near $600. if that's way beyond yer budget, time to actively seek out locally minded gun cranks (clubs, ranges, etc) and pool together for a group buy.

[Squeeze]

Did you ever clean the carbon buildup out of the breech plug flame channel with a drill bit turned by hand?

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Your breech plug sucks, plain and simple. BH209 is a very easy powder to shoot in an inline. With the CVA/ Traditions rifles I've shot the powder in, around 60lbs worth, FTF or hang fires are very rare and most of them happened at a very early stage when I knew nothing about it.

Are you properly cleaning your breech plugs flash channel with the proper size drill bit? Soaking it in solvent does not remove the hard nasty carbon build up in the breech plug.

[Rick Hodges]

CVA sells a special recessed breechplug for use with BH209...it is counter bored to reduce the distance between primer and powder. BH209 is notoriously hard to ignite and this is even worse in cold weather. I am happy with 777 but I rarely shoot a long string so the "crud ring" isn't a problem.

[Themoose]

I think some have missed my point... previously I had on one rifle that had an issue until I opened a new container of the propellant... I think it somehow was not up to par... but, I don't want to even worry about it in the future... as far as my "breech plugs suck" their design may not be up to your standards, but they were very clean, soaked in Hoppe's, scrubbed inside and out, soaked in acetone and rinsed in denatured alcohol(I did say I was anal about cleaning).. the vent liners were removed and cleaned as well... the ventliners were replaced within the last 20 shots so they were not enlarged, plugged or burnt out...I do have proper drill bits and the needle like bits to gauge when to replace them... again, one of the rifles never gave me a problem before.. I never shot 60 lbs, but did shoot at least a couple dozen 10 oz cans of it with no issues.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

you need to run a drill bit through that plug once you remove the vent liner. Even the liner could possibly be the issue if its not shaped correctly.

[OnHoPr]

If you are interested in shooting the PP boolits then give American Powder a try. When I was doing my Idaho Ron's PP Lee 440 gr testing it was the most accurate and cleanest burning powder of all the subs except Black MZ because I never tried that one. It was considerably cleaner and one ragged hole accurate @ just under 50 yds. But, that is the only time it has shined for me with the PP boolits and that give or take 70 gr of powder charge.

[M-Tecs]

4 1/2 pounds throught Savage ML & ML2, multiple Remington ML's with Savage breeches with zero issues. I have very limited use in sidelocks with 209 Magsparks. Again no issues but not really enough experience to comment.

[NSB]

you need to run a drill bit through that plug once you remove the vent liner. Even the liner could possibly be the issue if its not shaped correctly.
It's not designed for BH209. Drilling it won't fix it. The people who make the gun know what they're talking about.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Yes, using a drill bit to cut the CARBON build up out of the breech plug does fix it. Even CVA shooters and EVERY other muzzleloading brand has to use the drill bit to properly remove carbon build up from the breech plug. SOAKING in solvent DOES NOT remove it.
http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/breech-plug-cleaning/

[johnson1942]

when i got a cva inline i had to buy a aftermarket breech plug and then it worked perfectly. never ever have issues with the magsparks on the side locks. to day i went out on the deck and shot about 60 rounds of 45 long colt with 209 powder in them and cleaning the gun afterwards took only minutes. with the inlines you have to have the right breech plug for it. i would never suggest how to alter the present breech plug as it may make it dangerous to the user. cleaning out the flash channel with a proper size drill bit isnt altering it but just cleaning it. i could give suggestions on how to alter a breech plug but i wont, could get someone killed that way. im in the process of build a inline with a .357/1/15 twist barrel for target and fun. 209 with be the powder i use. again, got to have the breech plug made for it or it wont work.

[koger]

I started using BH209 last year, fired perfect every time, great velocities, flat shooting,and zero issues with it. I have supreme confidence in it, in my two TC Omegas, took several deer, all long yardages, hit where it was supposed to. I followed their directions, to the T. Sorry you are having issues. ON all my traditional guns, I use real black powder only.

[NSB]

Yes, using a drill bit to cut the CARBON build up out of the breech plug does fix it. Even CVA shooters and EVERY other muzzleloading brand has to use the drill bit to properly remove carbon build up from the breech plug. SOAKING in solvent DOES NOT remove it.
http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/breech-plug-cleaning/
FM, I too use a drill bit to clean my breech plug. However, the design of some of the Knight plugs doesn't lend it well to using BH209, and Knight tells you that. I have friends who tried using it and got the same results the OP is getting. Even with cleaning the plug every ten shots they were getting misfires. More so in the cold weather of late hunting season. Don't argue with me about it, take your case right to Knight and tell them they don't know what they're talking about. They're the ones saying it can be a problem and not to use it. They seem to be correct.

[Omega]

Another thing to consider are the primers. The BP primers are not recommended for BH209, regular shotgun primers are recommended. When I first started to mess with BH209 I had a few FTF due to the primers, I guess they are not made as hot as the regular primers.

[Squeeze]

I have a pile of Knights. Cant say how many pounds of BH i've been through, but buy it by the 5 lb jug. I don't have a problem, ever. (I only use it in Knight bolt guns with bare primer setup) But If you dont like it, Go with something else. Confidence alone goes a long way

[Edward]

Sounds like my experience and mine was 2 new cans of BH209 in 3 different TC hawkens . I have used 209 for several yrs with great performance until those 2 cans . Lots of opinions concerning my cleaning methods , but the only thing that got me shooting again was drilling a small hole at the breech end of the barrel suggested by Johnson 1942.Details can be found on this site as my grief started just a few months ago ,5 barrels done so far and 209 works great !

[54bore]

But If you dont like it, Go with something else. Confidence alone goes a long way

Right here ^^^^!!!

[johnson1942]

edward, thanks for telling others about your success. its simple, your just getting rid of the back pressure so the fire can reach the powder fast and harshly. i wouldnt be surprised if accuracy improves also because of consistant burn of powder.

[Saxtonyoung]

I have heard of this drilling a small hole in breech before and was wondering if anyone has any pictures of this they could share.

[johnson1942]

i cant remember if i posted some quite a while ago but i think i did. a 1/32 hole is drilled into the combustion chamber in the back of the combustion chamber or just in frot of the breech plug in the combustion chamber(both the same thing). drill it in on the left or right side at about a 45 degree angle as your looking from the back. the hole is drilled straight into the barrel. this hole lets the trapped air in the combustion chamber get pushed out by the fire coming into the chamber. if their is no escape for the air it can create a back pressure that doesnt allow the flame to reach the powder with some breech plugs. this hole has been seen on sidelocks that go back to the 1840/s. it even works on inlines. the flame reaches the powder better with the hole in the breech and a lot lot faster. just keep you finger off the hole when the gun is fired as if you dont you will get a good snap that will really wake you up. dont ask me how i know. it is a trick from the old old timers that is simple and really really works. pm/ edward he can tell all about it also.

[Saxtonyoung]

Pictures anyone ?

[rsrocket1]

I don't think BH209 is recommended to be used on slamfire rifles like Knights.
I use it on both the Optima Pro and Optima V2 and it works 100%. I have the BH209 breech plug for the V2 but I haven't found the need to replace the original one yet. Two things are very important in setting off BH209. First, it needs to be packed down tightly against the breech. An overpowder card or wad will help keep it there. The worst think you can use is a loosely seated hollow base bullet which allows powder to move around under it. Secondly, the flame from the primer must be fully contained and sent into the powder. That means the primer cannot allow the gases to leak around it. A loose fitting primer in the locked position will allow gases and flame to be diverted away from the powder and cause ignition problems. CVA sells a shim kit (http://www.cva.com/CVA-Store-View.php?id=504) that allows you to push the firing pin plug slightly forward to give an interference fit when you close the breech. You must be very careful to choose the shim(s) so that the primer rim causes a friction fit without the breech touching the primer face. This can be tested by coloring the back of the primer with a magic marker and looking for rub marks on the rim and not the face.

BH209 likes hot primers. I like to use Federal 209A's which are about the hottest primers around. Another good choice is the Winchester standard 209 primers which are not quite so hot but are the tallest primers available. This makes for a good fit. Before getting the CVA shim kit, I even used a 0.010" washer at the bottom of the primer hole to make sure I had a good tight seal between the primer face and the firing pin bushing.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/CVA%20Optima%20Pro/209Spacer_zpscdyaqs4l.jpg

The very first time I shot with my Optima Pro, there was daylight between the primer and the firing pin bushing and it was evident by seeing the fouling shot primers vs the more powerful full shot primers which pushed the primer back into the bushing face and imprinted the tooling mark on the primer face.
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/rsrocket1/CVA%20Optima%20Pro/FirstOuting_Primers_zpse3ecc28e.png

You could also see that the one and only misfire that I ever had with this ML showed soot on the primer face. This is where the primer gases leaked around the primer and fouled the primer face.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

yep, gotta seal up the gasses.

The o ring is very simple but does require more oomph to close the action.

[HPT]

i cant remember if i posted some quite a while ago but i think i did. a 1/32 hole is drilled into the combustion chamber in the back of the combustion chamber or just in frot of the breech plug in the combustion chamber(both the same thing). drill it in on the left or right side at about a 45 degree angle as your looking from the back. the hole is drilled straight into the barrel. this hole lets the trapped air in the combustion chamber get pushed out by the fire coming into the chamber. if their is no escape for the air it can create a back pressure that doesnt allow the flame to reach the powder with some breech plugs. this hole has been seen on sidelocks that go back to the 1840/s. it even works on inlines. the flame reaches the powder better with the hole in the breech and a lot lot faster. just keep you finger off the hole when the gun is fired as if you dont you will get a good snap that will really wake you up. dont ask me how i know. it is a trick from the old old timers that is simple and really really works. pm/ edward he can tell all about it also.

Would it work (letting out thr trapped air) using a hole in the nipple? Maybe a Slick shot nipple with the hole facing away?

[Edward]

I have heard of this drilling a small hole in breech before and was wondering if anyone has any pictures of this they could share. Hope this helps, 186951186951186951

[tomme boy]

Thats odd! Who came up with that?

[johnson1942]

its not odd and someone in the 1840/s came up with that. again as ive posted several times before, i first saw this on a high end 1840/s side lock. didnt know what it was for or why it was their. then soon after that dixie had a artice about it in one of their catalogs. all it is is a 1/32 hole into the back of the combustion chamber, just infront of the breech. this allows the air trapped behind the bullet to be push out by the primer flame instead of being compressed. sometimes that compressed air can blow the fame back where it came from and not reach the powder. then a missfire. with the 1/32 hole the ignition is faster and consistant. i even find on my guns the breech are is cleaner after firing. edward, if my memory is correct did this 1/32 hole to the guns he was having trouble getting to consistanly ignite and it cured the problem. again, no one know the name of the gun smith who came up with this, as he is from the 1840/s, and it isnt a hair brain idea, it is sound science and you cant get more traditional that from the 1840/s. just a recycled old very sound idea.

[Saxtonyoung]

Thanks Edward for the pictures.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

Air trapped behind the bullet? Every time I load, I hear air coming out the vent or nipple. I'd hate to deal with that hole once it starts to erode away from the gas cutting.

[54bore]

It makes sense, I understand the concept. But that is the LAST thing i would/could ever imagine doing to one of my rifles! Burning BH209 would NOT be that important to me! I'd throw the BH209 in the Garbage, or sprinkle it on Slugs. Switch to real Black

[GoexBlackhorn]

It makes sense, I understand the concept. But that is the LAST thing i would/could ever imagine doing to one of my rifles! Burning BH209 would NOT be that important to me! I'd throw the BH209 in the Garbage, or sprinkle it on Slugs. Switch to real Black

I haven't thrown my BH209 away yet. But I have switched back to real black. Blackhorn is just too fussy and if one doesn't use magnum powder charges or isn;t worried about using more cleaning patches with real black, then no need to continue with Blackhorn. All the powders need a swabbing at the end of the day shooting...... even Blackhorn here in the humid Upper Midwest / Great Lakes region. So worries about corrosion doesn't exist with ML owners that maintain their guns daily anyways.

Plus there's the price factor. Real Black gives us 16oz of powder for significantly less money spent, than Blackhorn at 10 ounces. Then there's the accuracy factor. Blackhorn likes magnum powder charges for accuracy (110-120gr). Not so with real black. Since 90+% of deer harvests are inside 100 yards, 80-90 grains of real black saves us money there too. Plus real black is accurate all the way down to minimum grain charges.

[johnson1942]

ok this is the last time im going to say anything about the bleeder hole. of course there is air coming out of your nipple when you load. BUT there is still air in there. the flame has to compress this air to reach to powder. sometimes the compression is too much and blows the flame back. as far as the hole eroding, thats going to take a real long time. and if it does any one with any skills at all can drill out the hole and tap it and put in a screw of stainless steel with a 1/32 hole in the middle of it. it sounds like i brought up politics or God or something the reactions that are coming in on this. frontier muzzleloaden, your not the last word on every thing. your new to this shootin black, you sound like you have been doing it for years and are about to right a book on it. because you dont like it doesnt mean its bullshi------. learn a little more and keep at it but again your not the last word on it all.

[Squeeze]

Hey, if it works... Half of those old wives tales die hard in the BH myths. Most of them were from when it was new, and the kinks were still being worked out. (which mostly ended up being a breech plug issue) The magnum charge thing is BS too. My Knight Mountaineer .32 conversion shoots a 15-20 grn. charge under a patched roundball flawlessly.

[tomme boy]

If you have to use or do all of this just to use this powder, it is worthless. All of these subs are for the people that are too lazy to clean their guns properly.

But that is my opinion. You what they say about that!

[koger]

Some folks on here, seem a bit high and mighty with their feedback on the pressure hole being drilled. This was published in Dixie Gun Works catalog for years, as some facts for beginners, by Turner Kirkland himself, who has probably forgotten more about traditional American made ML's than most of us will ever know. Do some research, it was used a lot in certain schools, of Southern rifles. Take a deep breath guys.

[johnson1942]

thanks sam, lots of mice trying to roar like a lion.

[tomme boy]

I just don't get it? Why bother when you can use regular black and not have to drill anything.

[54bore]

[QUOTE=koger;3938013]Some folks on here, seem a bit high and mighty with their feedback on the pressure hole being drilled. This was published in Dixie Gun Works catalog for years, as some facts for beginners, by Turner Kirkland himself, who has probably forgotten more about traditional American made ML's than most of us will ever know. Do some research, it was used a lot in certain schools, of Southern rifles. Take a deep breath guys.[/QUOTE

I just can't imagine drilling a hole in the barrel of any of my rifles just to use a certain brand of powder, personally i would never do that! But i am definitely not against you doing it to yours, If its your rifle 2 or 3 holes might be better than 1?

[M-Tecs]

Considering that drilling this type of hole has been done for the past 200 years without issues is good enough for me. I don't own any that's are drilled but I have drilled them for other people. They have been happy with the results.

[johnson1942]

tomme boy, this was invented in 1840, not yesterday. it was invented for black powder users, not modern powder. some side locks with number 11 caps dont go off all the time due to back pressure with BLACKPOWDER. i think talk here by some is with out reading what is being talked about. we could go to double spacing and all capital letters and use the out line form of talking like back in school. some people get wound up over nothing. this is old 1840/s tec. and some are saying it was just invented, WOW, there is something in the air.

[tomme boy]

Someone seems all high and mighty???

Really don't care when it was invented. If the gun has to have this to work properly, then that gun is defective. Someone messed up making the breach. How many million of these guns have been made and do not require a extra hole to work? It is a work around for someones screw up.

[Edward]

Someone seems all high and mighty???

Really don't care when it was invented. If the gun has to have this to work properly, then that gun is defective. Someone messed up making the breach. How many million of these guns have been made and do not require a extra hole to work? It is a work around for someones screw up. Not lazy and not a screwup ,just faster /reliable ignition and I"ve done 5 !If it didn't I would not done a second one and sounds like you don"t have the experience to even voice an opinion (just a wild A** guess) !

[johnson1942]

tomme boy, please write a book for all of us to read. bet you know everything about every thing. you bring joy to a party when you walk in a room. let it all out, every piece of knowledge you have on muzzleloaders. i know one thing your groups, are nothing to my groups and my friends groups. the thing about the internet, even mice can roar. go ahead, contribute, tell us all about muzzleloaders. show us your groups, bet you know all about politics,God and the american way of life also. lead on great oh great authority, lead on. guys like waksupi has forgotten more about black powder than you could ever learn in a life time. you should listen and learn, instead of nay say, anybody can nay say.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

If you have to use or do all of this just to use this powder, it is worthless.

No it would be the rifle that is worthless LOL. Its like saying my old f250 uses Type F fluid for the power steering. Now my NEW ford uses automatic tranny fluid! This is BS! I bought a 55 gallon drum of Type F, Now I can't even use the ****! This truck is junk.

[tomme boy]

Someones rear end hurts! Johnson, are you sure you are not Mr. Humble using a separate account??? Because you act just like him.

So lets see some groups there Johnyboy

[johnson1942]

i wish i knew what you are even talking about, have no idea with your babble. put forth some clear ideas here, teach us something. give us something to read and ponder with science behind it. your just a guy who wandered into a real meeting and has nothing to say but says it anyways. keep punching the keys and show us how really smart you are. lead on tommy boy, you light up every room you walk into, light us up. i want to learn something from you.

[tomme boy]

Still waiting on those groups????????

[tomme boy]

Johnyboy, sounds like you need to take a time out. You are acting like a 3 year old that was told NO. Just because someone does not believe in something you do does not give you the right to belittle them. You have attacked two people on this thread already. I guess it shows your mentality of a being a liberal. You attack when someone does not think like you.

It does not matter if you or anyone else is right. But people that act like you are what gives forums bad names. Did you not just reply to a thread about people being rude on forums? You are acting like the thread was all about.

Like I said above, it is my opinion. And you know what they say about that. I don't try to seem demeaning or attack people. But you sir seem to do it on most threads you post on.

At least I am in the Iowa record books for shooting a deer with my muzzleloader. Can you say that? 189 3/8"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/20170204_174520_zpsgx0xgjqy.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/20170204_174520_zpsgx0xgjqy.jpg.html)

And here is a 200 yard group with said muzzleloader.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/20170204_163918_zpsatc83gw0.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/20170204_163918_zpsatc83gw0.jpg.html)

[izzyjoe]

Man, i don't care what anyone says that is a nice buck!

[tomme boy]

Here is a little better pic. My phone is not that great.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/20170204_192252_zpsjhfqc1ze.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/20170204_192252_zpsjhfqc1ze.jpg.html)

[Fishman]

This thread sure went downhill. Tommyboy and Johnson1942, you both contribute a lot to this forum and are better than this. It must be hunting season over and fishing season still not here.

[WILCO]

I think some have missed my point....

I got it. Life's too short. Stick with what works for you. Sounds like you've got the plan.

[FrontierMuzzleloading]

I have some spare barrels so I can put this to the test some time and see how things improve with pyrodex.

[koger]

Tomme that is one nice buck. As for Roger Johnson, he is one of my best friends, though we live over 1500 miles apart one way. I have shot with Roger, he introduced me to paper patching and BH 209, if he states his guns shoot a ragged hole at 100yds, you can take it to the bank. We have had dealings for years, everything has been exactly as stated. One of Rogers Rifles he recently sold, was shooting about 2" groups, at 250yds, I forget the weight, but very heavy paper patched .50. I was shooting it, with peep sights. What Roger knows, he knows. I was skeptical of BH 209 after my first outing, but after further reading the company's tech stuff, and reviewing what Roger had explained to me. I currently have 2 TC Omegas set up,with BDC scopes made for ML rifles. One of them will shoot under 3"at 300yds, can show you the groups. Range was shot with a Leica Gevoid rangefinder. If the gun you are shooting is not made to shoot this powder, Roger offered a easy fix, some people wont like it, but the drilled hole will help. I would try to get a different breechplug for most inlines first, if it was me.Like I stated previously, it has been around for a long time, with folks using it who shot trad ML's, most with a drum/nipple setup, to make sure it went off every time, especially in the more humid areas of the south, from my research. I have a .50 TC Renegade barrel, that has had this done, and fires much faster with 2ffg, than my std Renegade .50 barrel. As for the BH209 issue, I have went thru 5 cans, all different lot#'s, with no issues, in either of my TC Omegas, guess I got lucky.

[tomme boy]

You mean like this?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/20170204_163902_zpsy1cy9bhf.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/tommeboy/media/20170204_163902_zpsy1cy9bhf.jpg.html)

If it works for you and other, then hey, what the heck, why not. But it is not for me. I just don't like the powder. It's like I like Chevys and you like Fords. To each their own. None of my rifles need to have this done. And if they did I would get rid of them. Mine go off without delay. The only time they did, I was using Pyrodex. It was with powder I had sitting around for about 5 years. Pyrodex goes bad after it has been opened. At the time I did not know this. The article I read said it was about 9-11% reduction in velocity for each year after the container was opened.