Swiss 1911

[Lethemgo]

Recent pick up and glad to have it. Bought it with a set of hornady dies and 30 rounds of ammo. But.....wait to see last picture....why would someone do that. Going to fix it even if I have to make the rest of stock for it. Would like to find a stock but don't want to spend a bucket full of money on doing it. I'm sure it will all work out. Will start casting and reloading for it to in future so will be looking to pick your guys brains on what to use.
http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad317/lethemgo/20170123_125212.jpg (http://s947.photobucket.com/user/lethemgo/media/20170123_125212.jpg.html)
http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad317/lethemgo/20170123_125226.jpg (http://s947.photobucket.com/user/lethemgo/media/20170123_125226.jpg.html)
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[funnyjim014]

Well that was a nice hunk of wood... all I can ask us Why? Keep digging you might be able to find a nice set for a decent price

[Stewbaby]

Those stocks are unobtainium from my searching. I finally just parted mine out as I have three others. Good luck in your search and check the Swiss rifle boards.

[Lethemgo]

I ordered top from numrich and going to make the bottom and splice it in under barrel band. Will still keep looking for stock but sounds hard to find. Not sure what kind of wood they used but haven't really looked at it much yet. Sure something will be better than what's there now.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I think they ran about 50% walnut (earlier production) and 50% birch (later production). I'm guessing from the photos that yours is stained birch from the color difference in the scratch on the right side of the butt. If that's the case you can go either way with a restoration. Although I've never extended a cut off Schmidt-Rubin stock, I have done so quite successfully on several Krags and Mausers. You have plenty of room beneath the barrel to drill a hole for one or two small dowels, matching holes in the replacement wood, and apply AccraGlas Gel. I have also used the threaded brass stock repair pins instead of the dowels. Have you got a front barrel band? That shouldn't be too hard to find. You'll need to remove a bit more wood from the end of the stock so that the repair will be beneath the middle band where the sling swivel is located. Once done it won't be visible, and is a very suitable repair as the stress from carrying with a sling is borne by the barrel, and the pieced-in part doesn't really do much except make the rifle look complete. If you're a good woodworker and think it's necessary you can free float the added part between the center and front band. Good luck with this project.

[Duckiller]

got one just like yours. It was cheap and is fun to shoot. find some berdan primers and have fun reloading Swiss army loads. The brass is too pretty to throw away. Makes a good backup deer gun.

[Jeff Michel]

That's a nice stock, shame it got cut. Most of the K11 stocks seem to be in better shape than the K31's. You might keep an eye at Simpson's web sight. They import a pretty good number of rifles and not infrequently, parts. If this is your first, your going to love it, never had one that shot bad. NOE offers a mould specific to the Swiss rifle.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/

[bouncer50]

Here is my opinion if you bought it at a good price as a shooter. Just enjoy it as it is. The time you spend chasing down parts and labor you could buy another one complete.

[skeet1]

Liberty Tree has the 1911 hand guard, a call to them may be in order for the stock. https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewcategories.asp?idCategory=18

Ken

[Lethemgo]

The hand guard is on its way along with the end barrel band. I'm going to just cut in a piece for the stock and than just keep my eyes open for a complete stock. Heck guess that will really make it mine and hopefully turn out great...not as good as new but not noticeable if you didn't know. We'll see anyway...

[William Yanda]

"not as good as new but not noticeable if you didn't know. "

And if you do know, you can take pride in the restoration.
Bill

[Pb4me]

Lethemgo:

I was in the same situation with the same rifle. I traded a Buck knife for it in the 80's. I was unable to find a stock until I checked on the Swiss rifle board just a few years ago. Mr. Frank von Bennindijk in the Netherlands had these stocks and I ordered one from him. He included all the metal and even an original can of military issue oil. He was known as "Guisan" on the Swiss rifle board and was very respected among collectors and shooters. Unfortunately, he has passed on. My point for bring this up is someone on that forum may know what became of all the parts he had. It would be worth a shot. If you do find one and order it, it may behoove you to order a taller font sight at the same time. I had one on mine but put the low factory sight back on to see where it strikes with cast loads. Good luck and don't give up.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I ordered top from numrich and going to make the bottom and splice it in under barrel band. Will still keep looking for stock but sounds hard to find. Not sure what kind of wood they used but haven't really looked at it much yet. Sure something will be better than what's there now.

I got just those parts, including the forend iron and clips, from Numrich for one of my 1889s, a rifle I love despite its not being as light, handy and modern as the 1911. Laziness is your friend here, if the intellectual who did the work did the cut where it will be covered by the band, didn't taper down the forend, and didn't cut the barrel to a nice sporting length.

[Jeff Michel]

I'd splice the fore end. Most 96/11's I've seen have the pistol grip spliced and they seem to hold up just fine.

[Shepherd2]

About 10-12 years ago I bought a 1911 Swiss rifle at an estate auction. It was missing a few small parts and I discovered the firing pin was broken. I used to visit the Swiss Rifle forum and knew about Guisan and another dealer who went by "Swiss Dagger". I emailed Swiss Dagger about the parts I needed. He had what I needed and gave me a very reasonable price. He had me send US currency in payment. I received the parts in about 10 days of mailing him the cash.

I don't visit the Swiss forum very often and don't know if he is still around but I do have his address since I still have Swiss rifles that may need parts some day.

If you can't find him on the net his mailing address is (or was):

Helvetica Antiques
Rotacher 41
CH-4457 Diegten
Switzerland

Hope you get your 1911 restored.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'd splice the fore end. Most 96/11's I've seen have the pistol grip spliced and they seem to hold up just fine.

I think any 96/11 does, unless the stock has been replaced, since they were conversions of the straight-hand 96 rifle. You will probably find a service replacement has the matching serial number stamped in the wood, possibly in a concealed spot.

The grip splice was probably done with animal glue, but Switerzland isn't a hot or humid country. I would be careful with storage anywhere that is. The 96 action, unlike the 89, is just as good in all respects as the 1911, including use with modern 7.5x55 ammunition. A true 96 would be the most tragic to see butchered by an amateur today, as the officlal conversion to 96/11 of those in service makes it a great rarity.

The www.swissrifles.com (http://www.swissrifles.com) website is indeed full of information.

[Lethemgo]

I'll get it fixed one way or another. I do have my eye on a 96 also and will get one soon. Same guy has them all and says he has one I have got to see first. I was drooling on the 2 he had at the gun show and says the other is better. Already bought some 6.5 dies from him and don't even have a gun yet.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

6.5mm.? The 96 I meant was the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin 96 in 7.5mm., almost all of which were converted to 1911 specification.

[Multigunner]

I wonder if fish glue was ever used in splicing military wood?
The Mongols used it when laminating their bows. Its flexible, water proof and long lived, and extremely strong. A derivative called Isinglass was used to make flexible windows for convertible tops for buggies and early automobiles.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I wonder if fish glue was ever used in splicing military wood?
The Mongols used it when laminating their bows. Its flexible, water proof and long lived, and extremely strong. A derivative called Isinglass was used to make flexible windows for convertible tops for buggies and early automobiles.

Could be, but I don't think good animal glue, thinly applied and not degraded by overheating, is any worse. I always suspected that one reason the Mongol and Muslim invasions of Europe never got into areas where you could get extreme damp or frost, was their effect on the composite bow.

[Multigunner]

"I always suspected that one reason the Mongol and Muslim invasions of Europe never got into areas where you could get extreme damp or frost, was their effect on the composite bow. "

Don't know what effect bitter cold would have had but the only historical mention of wet weather effecting bows that I've read is when the bow string looses tension after being soaked by rain.
Composite bows were used throughout the Russian Stepps and in damp tropical climes. The Mongols conquered much of Russia.

Only thing that prevented the Mongols from penetrating deep into Europe was that their Empire and Armies were spread to thin. By that time most Mongol troops were non Mongol conscripts and mercenaries.

The Eastern Composite bows were wrapped in a layer of water proof flexible covering glued to the limbs.

Any decently finished compound bow would have to be submerged for hours to draw any significant amount of moisture.
Strings on the other hand had to be kept dry.
The Mongol horseman always carried two bows, one was kept strung all day, then it was unstrung to relax the limbs and the other bow was strung that night for use the following day.

[bouncer50]

I wonder if fish glue was ever used in splicing military wood?
The Mongols used it when laminating their bows. Its flexible, water proof and long lived, and extremely strong. A derivative called Isinglass was used to make flexible windows for convertible tops for buggies and early automobiles. Isinglass, I have not hear that word for over 25 years. Old timer told me they used it on wood burner. Like a window to look at the fire.

[Multigunner]

" Old timer told me they used it on wood burner. Like a window to look at the fire. "

Not sure but it was probably not the same form of Isinglass used for flexible windows. Could be though.
That form of isinglass is a lamination of super thin layers of the mineral Mica. Somehow they bonded these fragile layers together over lapping the pieces for strength. Whatever glue they used had to be strong, clear as glass and water proof.

The fish glue is made from the swim bladders of fish, and in Germany this same material is called Isinglass and is added to beer to improve the aging process.

Its amazing how durable many natural materials are. I only recently found out that the grips of my FN 1922 pistol are made of steamed and pressed goat horn rather than an artificial plastic material or hard rubber.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Isinglass, I have not hear that word for over 25 years. Old timer told me they used it on wood burner. Like a window to look at the fire.

That was mica, a mineral which is often found in tiny flakes in rocks, but sometimes in a form which can be split into sheets. Isinglass is water soluble. A weaker jelly than the glues was sometimes used to preserve eggs.

I think archery on the Russian steppes was a seasonal affair, or the bow had to be kept warm - which it probably could, in a case attached closely to the horse, although it is just guesswork that they ever did. A bowstring made of sinew would indeed stretch when wet, but the English longbow, of glueless wood with a linen string, worked well in the rain. The story the French chroniclers tell of the battle of Crecy wasw that the strings of their Genoan mercenary crossbowmen became useless in the rain. But it was probably just an excuse.

[Multigunner]

from Encylopedia Britanica

"Fish Glue. - Whereas isinglass, a very pure gelatin, is yielded by the sounds of a limited number of fish, it is found that all fish offals yield a glue possessing considerable adhesive properties. The manufacture consists in thoroughly washing the offal with water, and then discharging it into extractors with live steam. After digestion, the liquid is run off, allowed to stand, the upper oily layer removed, and the lower gluey solution clarified with alum. The liquid is then filtered, concentrated in open vats, and bleached with sulphur dioxide.' Fish glue is a light-brown viscous liquid which has a distinctly disagreeable odour and an acrid taste; these disadvantages to its use are avoided if it be boiled with a little water and 1% of sodium phosphate, and 0.025% of saccharine added. "

The derivative of Isinglass used to make beer is not treated in the same manner as the lower glue portion. Alum added to the mix makes Fish Glues and Hide Glues water proof enough to be used to secure the soles of shoes.

The English at Crecy kept extra bow strings in water proof packets and restrung their bows before the battle with fresh dry strings. The Genoans were using Composite limbed cross bows that could not be restrung that easily. The result was that the crossbowmen found their maximum range greatly reduced while the Longbow was not much affected by the wet weather.
During the US Civil War a early morning assault on Confederate fortifications succeeded because the Federal troops were instructed not to load their muskets until moments before the attack. The Confederate defenders had been loaded at the ready all night in a drizzling rain and their guns had a high percentage of misfires.

The Mongols and other horse archers had elaborate bow cases strapped to their saddles. One I've seen images of was layered in gold leaf and held a bow and dozens of arrows ready to rock.

I've never seen any historical references to the Mongol bow being adversely affected by wet weather or cold. They often lived and fought in mountainous climes where rain and snow were common enough.

I've seen laminated wood objects recovered from Asian tombs, the laminations still secure after thousands of years.

[Lethemgo]

Just wondering what this has to do with my cut stock....maybe you should start a glue thread. While it's interesting I keep hoping maybe someone is going to say yeah I have a stock I'll give you and than I read about glue.

[Multigunner]

Its called thread drift, we were speculating on what adhesive was used to mount the pistol grip on stocks that had been originally manufactured as straight grip stocks.

Those of us who once made a living from working with wood and still like to dabble in furniture and gunstock repair do get off on tangents when it comes to the best glues for such purposes.

A stock can be repaired with modern resin glues, but a proper restoration requires use of glues available when the guns were new.
Some military rifle matches only allow a stock that has been modified if the modifications are done in a manner and by use of materials available to armorers when the rifles were in service.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Just wondering what this has to do with my cut stock....maybe you should start a glue thread. While it's interesting I keep hoping maybe someone is going to say yeah I have a stock I'll give you and than I read about glue.

I wouldn't like to think we would actually put them off, and the more time a thread spends at the top of the list, the more it is likely to be viewed.

[Mr Humble]

I know some of the K31s (like mine) had 2 piece laminated walnut stocks. The work was so good you usually would never catch it under several decades of dirt and linseed oil. Mine came in greased paper and the stock became 2 pieces after a few shots. Appeared to be hide glue which I replaced with WEST epoxy.

Imagine what a stick of Euro walnut with those mineral lines would cost today !

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[Ballistics in Scotland]

It is beautiful wood, but it would be cheaper if it was made of joined pieces, each unsuitable for a gunstock. The thought of that stock coming unglued under recoil is pretty intimidating, so maybe any like it should be tested with a hefty rubber mallet on the buttplate before firing.

[Multigunner]

I wonder if there's anything under the wood to resist recoil, like a mortise and tenon or a line of biscuits.

That is some nice looking wood and a pretty good job of matching up the grain.

[Mr Humble]

No biscuits, just well fitted. Note mortise on bottom view. Swiss folks say these were made when walnut got scarce. Looking at the grain lines, it seems the two pieces were made from one piece.

Your stock looks like walnut but could be beech. In either case pieces to make what you need are easy to find.

I've done several "duffel cut" 98 Mausers. A repair well done is invisible and plenty strong.

[Lethemgo]

I know the a lot of mosins had the small piece added on the bottom part of stock. Kind of makes you wonder if in there thinking if glue did come loss that top part would move up instead of down and into shooter. Probably not but who knows...as we've read glue can be so strong. In my dealing with woodworking if done right a glued joint can be stronger than the wood it's used on. Thought about shooting yesterday on a outing but only have a few rounds for now. Think I'll just wait until she's put together and if I get to forming that front end and stop looking at this gun board it will get done much faster.

[Mr Humble]

Your Swiss rifle would be an easy fix. Go to the library and get a few books on advanced woodworking. Should have instructions for making hidden, reinforced glue joints using epoxy glue. The barrel band will hide your work.