BB rifles for hunting and hand pumpers as well as tank use .

[melloairman]

One looks like a rolling block .http://air-ordnance.com/modoc/ and the other does not . http://www.inovairtech.com/ Thought that there might be some useful info here for some . I know in the past that some have questioned why would you pay that price for a AR . For the same reason you buy several PB . Or hunt with your choice of a long bow , cross bow , hand gun , long gun , or a black powder gun . Because you want to and can in this country . Marvin

[Multigunner]

Saw a video on that Rolling Block Modoc rifle awhile back. looks like a very cool and useful gun.
Power level would be a bit better than a rifle chambered for .32 S&W Long. Plenty good enough for Turkey or other small to low weight medium game animals and birds.

The Texan .50 and .45 caliber guns are awesome. They have about the same power as a .45 ACP.

None of these should be classed as "BB Guns" they are pellet guns and/or pneumatic slug guns.
The earliest air guns were in much the same power range, intended for medium size game animals up to and including wild boar. Guns of .70 caliber and up were common. They were even used in war for a time.
Pneumatic powered Cane guns of the 19th century were also often more powerful than pocket pistols of the era.

A major advantage is they can't prohibit or tax air.

You should check out airgun hunter videos from Asia, where airguns are about the only option. The handmade airguns shown are ingenious.

[melloairman]

Saw a video on that Rolling Block Modoc rifle awhile back. looks like a very cool and useful gun.
Power level would be a bit better than a rifle chambered for .32 S&W Long. Plenty good enough for Turkey or other small to low weight medium game animals and birds.

The Texan .50 and .45 caliber guns are awesome. They have about the same power as a .45 ACP.

None of these should be classed as "BB Guns" they are pellet guns and/or pneumatic slug guns.
The earliest air guns were in much the same power range, intended for medium size game animals up to and including wild boar. Guns of .70 caliber and up were common. They were even used in war for a time.
Pneumatic powered Cane guns of the 19th century were also often more powerful than pocket pistols of the era.

A major advantage is they can't prohibit or tax air.

You should check out airgun hunter videos from Asia, where airguns are about the only option. The handmade airguns shown are ingenious.
BB Stands for big bore air rifles . A term given to a class of AR many years ago . Marvin

[DanishM1Garand]

They can ban lead projectiles. California and Obama both are are on a non toxic bullet kick.

These rifles fill a niche for hunting in places where an unsuppressed gun would cause problems. A parcel of land next to a devolpement for instance.

77 grains at 1000 feet per second is nothing to sneeze at.

[Multigunner]

"BB Stands for big bore air rifles "
Not a very good choice of term, considering that BB rifles always stood for .18/.177 caliber round ball shooting airguns styled more or less like rifles, even though BB guns are ordinarily not rifled. Some European .177 BB guns, like the Drozd made for use with round lead shot as well as steel shot are rifled.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Firearms News, January 2017, Issue 2, there's an article on the latest air rifles including some big bores. No prices. Think I'm getting interested in owning one.

[koehlerrk]

Bought my first pneumatic gun last year, a lightly used Benjamin Marauder.

I'm hooked. These pcp guns are flat out amazing in what they can do. Next, I want a Benjamin Bulldog in 357, launches 150gr bullets at 800-900 fps.

[melloairman]

"BB Stands for big bore air rifles "
Not a very good choice of term, considering that BB rifles always stood for .18/.177 caliber round ball shooting airguns styled more or less like rifles, even though BB guns are ordinarily not rifled. Some European .177 BB guns, like the Drozd made for use with round lead shot as well as steel shot are rifled.
It is a term established by some of the first and best known builders of AR . I can see your point as well . But look at some of the terms we as casters use . Smelting , and mining ? And fire arms calibers and boolit, sizes 38 caliber or is it a 38 special caliber or a .357 or .358 . And the list goes on . The term use to stand for and still does to a large mass of shooters for any thing of .300 and up in boolit diameter. Some are now saying it should stand for a certain amount of energy . Which in my opinion is not proper . What does that have to do with the term or BB used to state a size of a built . This adds to miss use of terms . Just have to except the way things are sometimes .Marvin

[Multigunner]

"They can ban lead projectiles. "
Even if we couldn't salvage lead for projectiles cast zinc alloy bullets have proven very accurate in fire arms at the same velocity levels, so pellets of slugs would remain available.
The arrow shooting pneumatic guns are another option.

Yesterday while going through some old boxes I found some .177 aluminum and plastic darts I bought many years ago. They didn't work well in the airguns I had at the time so I forgot about them.
I tried them in a 760 crosman at two and three pumps and found them reasonably accurate in that gun and in my 1377.

A heavier fin stabilized steel dart, suited to the bigger bores and with driving band or sabot to protect rifling should be deadly on game animals, through probably not as accurate as proper pellets or slugs.
A scaled down copy of the waisted sabot slugs used in shotguns with rifled bore inserts should also be fairly accurate at air gun velocities.

[Tracy]

"BB Stands for big bore air rifles "
Not a very good choice of term, considering that BB rifles always stood for .18/.177 caliber round ball shooting airguns

Agreed. And using "AR" as an abbreviation for air rifle is a bad idea too. How about using actual words, at least in an opening post? Or is that just too much trouble?

[melloairman]

"They can ban lead projectiles. "
Even if we couldn't salvage lead for projectiles cast zinc alloy bullets have proven very accurate in fire arms at the same velocity levels, so pellets of slugs would remain available.
The arrow shooting pneumatic guns are another option.

Yesterday while going through some old boxes I found some .177 aluminum and plastic darts I bought many years ago. They didn't work well in the airguns I had at the time so I forgot about them.
I tried them in a 760 crosman at two and three pumps and found them reasonably accurate in that gun and in my 1377.

A heavier fin stabilized steel dart, suited to the bigger bores and with driving band or sabot to protect rifling should be deadly on game animals, through probably not as accurate as proper pellets or slugs.
A scaled down copy of the waisted sabot slugs used in shotguns with rifled bore inserts should also be fairly accurate at air gun velocities.
I have shot up to 22 bhn bullets out of AR made in the US that have TJ liners for barrels with no accuracy problems Never tried zinc but it might work as well . But there are several avenues to go with the right barrel . My Korean rifles will not maintain accuracy beyond a 10 bhn alloy . But back to my original post purpose was to give some insight to a low volume fill rifle for a hunter with only a hand pump .Marvin

[Multigunner]

The Brocock precharged pneumatic cartridges were more of a novelty at one time, allowing quick conversion of a cartridge firearm to fire pellets propelled by compressed air and later a line of purpose designed replica guns .

They were not all that powerful but in the UK street thugs quickly found they could alter the air cartridge to hold an 8mm theatrical blank and use it to fire a heavy pellet or lead slug at lethal velocities.
Because of this these were possibly the first air guns banned in the UK.

Not sure if the Modoc could be altered this way, but you can bet someone somewhere will give it a go.

A compact quick detachable air cylinder and a belt pouch full of spare cylinders makes more sense to me than a large capacity reservoir permanently mounted on the rifle.
A slender cylinder in a stout tube inside the butt stock with vents in case of a catastrophic failure of the cylinder or its connection seal should be plenty safe.
A ten shot at full power capacity per cylinder would be okay for hunting purposes. Even fewer full power shots per cylinder would be acceptable if the cylinders were easy to swap out.

One of ten cylinders blowing out due to some accident would be less of a danger than a cylinder with ten times the capacity doing the same.

If the cylinders were small enough a compartment for one could be built into the pump body itself. Just insert the cylinder tighten it down and start pumping.

[Motard]

Multigunner, the smaller the cilinder the less air it will contain and the more rapidly rifle precision will be affected from pressure variation, external temperature etc etc. English air hunters always prefers midern Pcp rifles tht can guarantee over 40 consistent load in the underbarrel reservoir, and some purist' s choice is for high ends springers like AirArms. Those are akso my preferred for same purpose, pcp and springer

Inviato dal mio F5321 utilizzando Tapatalk

[jcwit]

For some reason if 1,000 members here "and we are gun people" were asked what AR stands for I'm betting there would be 900 + members would say AR? a rifle used by the armed forces as in AR16.

If a similar question was asked about BB I'm again betting 900+ folks would say a kids BB gun as in a Daisy rifle.

Prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



BTW, I own a Discovery, I happen to use it with CO2 as at my age "73" it's pretty hard to pump up. I also own 8 springers ll the way from common available ones to a Walther 300.

[melloairman]

For some reason if 1,000 members here "and we are gun people" were asked what AR stands for I'm betting there would be 900 + members would say AR? a rifle used by the armed forces as in AR16.

If a similar question was asked about BB I'm again betting 900+ folks would say a kids BB gun as in a Daisy rifle.

Prove me wrong!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



BTW, I own a Discovery, I happen to use it with CO2 as at my age "73" it's pretty hard to pump up. I also own 8 springers ll the way from common available ones to a Walther 300.
Welcome to a AR forum . I hope you can become a custom to AR forum terminology soon . Marvin

[jcwit]

Nope, an AR will always mean to me an Army rifle, likely in .223 caliber. Just as a BB gun will always likely be a Daisy.

BTW, my first BB gun was 68 years ago.

Again, prove me wrong!

[jh45gun]

I agree bb is a round slightly under 177 round ball used in bb guns and b b/pellet guns. Big Bore should be spelled out.

[Multigunner]

IIRC the Term BB comes from the French term Ball Boulette , though I don't remember the exact spelling.
It basically means "Spherical Bullet" or "Round Ball" shot as opposed to Conical Ball bullets.

The 6mm Airsoft BB shot falls within the broad definition, but not by much.

Size BB bird and small game lead shot are .18 caliber, the original type of shot used in the early production BB guns.

[Mr Humble]

Nobody ever called a 416 Rigby a "BB", as for AR, it has always meant Automatic Rifle as in BAR.

My first BB gun was a Daisy pump style some 63 years ago. It was great for picking starlings out of the tall dead locust trees as you could see the BB's line of flight against the sky and adjust accordingly. After killing a ton of them, we had songbirds again.

[melloairman]

It is a term established by some of the first and best known builders of AR . I can see your point as well . But look at some of the terms we as casters use . Smelting , and mining ? And fire arms calibers and boolit, sizes 38 caliber or is it a 38 special caliber or a .357 or .358 . And the list goes on . The term use to stand for and still does to a large mass of shooters for any thing of .300 and up in boolit diameter. Some are now saying it should stand for a certain amount of energy . Which in my opinion is not proper . What does that have to do with the term or BB used to state a size of a built . This adds to miss use of terms . Just have to except the way things are sometimes .Marvin
here is a video that might help some of you understand .Marvin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njW2z_SoFP8

[jcwit]

Think as you wish.

But remember, is it a mag, or is it a clip? A gun or a rifle/shotgun/ handgun/pistol/revolver/air rifle/Daisy BB gun/and onand on and on! Do we have a bough or a bow? A crick or a creek?

Guess you folks have just started a whole new vocabulary. You might somewhere with the young set, but the old timers will not change!

[Multigunner]

In part confusion may arise due to the fact that the vast majority of members of this site are more firearms oriented and the initials "BB defined as 177 steel shot or .18 lead shot and AR meaning Auto Rifle (and more recently rifles based on the Armalite Rifle), have been in common use for over a century.
The earlier large bore air guns were never given any such designation as BB guns, and there are early examples of air guns of .70 caliber and up.

Even the panel of air gun enthusiasts in that video were not in complete agreement as to what constituted a "Big Bore" airgun.

Personally I think of air guns as either "small bore" (.177, .20, .22, and . 25, though a very few 6mm and 7mm airguns are out there) ( The .12 and .118 caliber guns are rare and long obsolete) or "large bore" of .30 and up. Since the term "BB" has already been taken and has very deep historical roots when it comes to airguns perhaps the term "LB" for "Large Bore" would be a better choice to avoid confusion. A further refinement would be "LBAR" for "Large Bore Air Rifle" , more descriptive and far less likely to be mistaken for anything else.

The largest game animals that the large bore air guns firing heavy conical bullets would be suited to are at best medium game even if someone somehow manages to drop a truly large animal with a well placed shot its highly unlikely that the average hunter could take anything heavier than a Deer with even the best large bore airguns available at this time.
The energy level of the hottest available large bore airgun is a hair more than that of a .45 ACP pistol, not something you'd want to trust your life to on a Brown Bear hunt though fair sized bear have been dropped with a well placed pistol shot in the past.

The most deadly of the early air rifles was the Girandoni repeating air gun of IIRC .43 caliber, it had aprox the equivalent power to a .38 Special +P pistol round. The quick change air canister/butt stock held enough high pressure air for up to 30 shots, the first ten were judged to be deadly at a range of 120 yards, the second string of ten deadly at 80 yards, and the last thirty shots deadly at closer ranges. I remember this from an old NRA test run on an original still in shooting condition. In one test firing the ball penetrated a steel helmet of the type worn by some mounted troops of the 18th century at over one hundred yards.
The pump used to fill the canisters , three per rifle, was similar to the Hill high pressure pump which is commonly used today, with a screw threaded tip for mounting it securely in a tree trunk so the man doing the pumping could lean into it with his whole body and legs behind the trust. These air canisters unfortunately were often not up to the task and on occasion exploded injuring the man doing the pumping. The problem was traced to substandard sheet iron used in mass production. The original cylinders were very strongly constructed and safe, but each of those was carefully made by a skilled craftsman and of the finest materials.

Since the father of a schoolmate was killed by an exploding split rim truck tire in his garage I have had a healthy respect for the power of compressed air. That's why I suggested smaller slimmer quick change cylinders mounted inside a sturdy shell inside the butt stock with vents in case of a catastrophic failure of the cylinder. Some present day large bore airguns like the Texan use the air cylinder itself as the butt stock just as the Girandoni rifles did.
Of course modern materials are extremely strong, but I've also seen a Scuba tank that had burst wide open in a dive shop. The shop owner hung it on the wall as a reminder of what could happen if the tanks were not kept cooled down while filling them from a compressor.

There's a youtube video of a guy shooting at some older and beat up carbon fiber reinforced air tanks. One when hit ripped loose from the rack it was hanging from and launched itself at high speed across the field coming fairly close to the camera.
In a Myth Busters test they broke the valve off a large capacity compressed air cylinder laying on a floor and it punched its way neatly through a cinder block wall like a cannon shot.

BTW
I recent saw a video on a nice looking compact PCP pistol considered suited to small game hunting. Its a revolver with a rather small capacity tank mounted under the barrel. I think there's just enough air in the tank for about thirty shots at full power. its built in regulator keeps the velocity deviations very low from first to last shot.
The gun could be made much more powerful for the first few shots, but without the regulator velocity deviations would be very high and accuracy would suffer. A larger tank is not a viable option for this pistol.
Some PCP pistols have rather bulky tanks that attach to the bottom of the grip, which allows more shots per fill but makes the gun a bit unwieldy and practically imposable to carry in a holster with any level of comfort.

[melloairman]

In part confusion may arise due to the fact that the vast majority of members of this site are more firearms oriented and the initials "BB defined as 177 steel shot or .18 lead shot and AR meaning Auto Rifle (and more recently rifles based on the Armalite Rifle), have been in common use for over a century.
The earlier large bore air guns were never given any such designation as BB guns, and there are early examples of air guns of .70 caliber and up.

Even the panel of air gun enthusiasts in that video were not in complete agreement as to what constituted a "Big Bore" airgun.

Personally I think of air guns as either "small bore" (.177, .20, .22, and . 25, though a very few 6mm and 7mm airguns are out there) ( The .12 and .118 caliber guns are rare and long obsolete) or "large bore" of .30 and up. Since the term "BB" has already been taken and has very deep historical roots when it comes to airguns perhaps the term "LB" for "Large Bore" would be a better choice to avoid confusion. A further refinement would be "LBAR" for "Large Bore Air Rifle" , more descriptive and far less likely to be mistaken for anything else.

The largest game animals that the large bore air guns firing heavy conical bullets would be suited to are at best medium game even if someone somehow manages to drop a truly large animal with a well placed shot its highly unlikely that the average hunter could take anything heavier than a Deer with even the best large bore airguns available at this time.
The energy level of the hottest available large bore airgun is a hair more than that of a .45 ACP pistol, not something you'd want to trust your life to on a Brown Bear hunt though fair sized bear have been dropped with a well placed pistol shot in the past.

The most deadly of the early air rifles was the Girandoni repeating air gun of IIRC .43 caliber, it had aprox the equivalent power to a .38 Special +P pistol round. The quick change air canister/butt stock held enough high pressure air for up to 30 shots, the first ten were judged to be deadly at a range of 120 yards, the second string of ten deadly at 80 yards, and the last thirty shots deadly at closer ranges. I remember this from an old NRA test run on an original still in shooting condition. In one test firing the ball penetrated a steel helmet of the type worn by some mounted troops of the 18th century at over one hundred yards.
The pump used to fill the canisters , three per rifle, was similar to the Hill high pressure pump which is commonly used today, with a screw threaded tip for mounting it securely in a tree trunk so the man doing the pumping could lean into it with his whole body and legs behind the trust. These air canisters unfortunately were often not up to the task and on occasion exploded injuring the man doing the pumping. The problem was traced to substandard sheet iron used in mass production. The original cylinders were very strongly constructed and safe, but each of those was carefully made by a skilled craftsman and of the finest materials.

Since the father of a schoolmate was killed by an exploding split rim truck tire in his garage I have had a healthy respect for the power of compressed air. That's why I suggested smaller slimmer quick change cylinders mounted inside a sturdy shell inside the butt stock with vents in case of a catastrophic failure of the cylinder. Some present day large bore airguns like the Texan use the air cylinder itself as the butt stock just as the Girandoni rifles did.
Of course modern materials are extremely strong, but I've also seen a Scuba tank that had burst wide open in a dive shop. The shop owner hung it on the wall as a reminder of what could happen if the tanks were not kept cooled down while filling them from a compressor.

There's a youtube video of a guy shooting at some older and beat up carbon fiber reinforced air tanks. One when hit ripped loose from the rack it was hanging from and launched itself at high speed across the field coming fairly close to the camera.
In a Myth Busters test they broke the valve off a large capacity compressed air cylinder laying on a floor and it punched its way neatly through a cinder block wall like a cannon shot.

BTW
I recent saw a video on a nice looking compact PCP pistol considered suited to small game hunting. Its a revolver with a rather small capacity tank mounted under the barrel. I think there's just enough air in the tank for about thirty shots at full power. its built in regulator keeps the velocity deviations very low from first to last shot.
The gun could be made much more powerful for the first few shots, but without the regulator velocity deviations would be very high and accuracy would suffer. A larger tank is not a viable option for this pistol.
Some PCP pistols have rather bulky tanks that attach to the bottom of the grip, which allows more shots per fill but makes the gun a bit unwieldy and practically imposable to carry in a holster with any level of comfort.
Things are changing with AR . So it is hard to keep with energy levels . This one is up there .Marvin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAjZ8GYdqx8

[Multigunner]

very interesting rifle in that video.
I wonder if Helium charged rifles are still considered air guns?
CO2 powered guns are usually lumped in with the air guns that use pressurized air so I suppose so.

Relying on precharged containers of gases such as CO2 or Helium do pose a potential problem, the supply of either could be cut off by regulations. It would be easier to make your own gunpowder and caps than to manufacture your own purified gases. Generating Hydrogen is fairly easy, but manufacture of Helium is not so straight forwards.

Use of high pressure Helium does appear to allow both much greater power and more compact gas reservoirs. These could rival firearms in power for barrel length.

[melloairman]

very interesting rifle in that video.
I wonder if Helium charged rifles are still considered air guns?
CO2 powered guns are usually lumped in with the air guns that use pressurized air so I suppose so.

Relying on precharged containers of gases such as CO2 or Helium do pose a potential problem, the supply of either could be cut off by regulations. It would be easier to make your own gunpowder and caps than to manufacture your own purified gases. Generating Hydrogen is fairly easy, but manufacture of Helium is not so straight forwards.

Use of high pressure Helium does appear to allow both much greater power and more compact gas reservoirs. These could rival firearms in power for barrel length.
I started this thread to show that a low volume BB was available for a hunter . Not to see if AR were better than PB . Yes helium AR are still considered AR . But do not take my word for it . Please check out the site listed here . This producer keeps build quality to were leakage is not a problem . And states his rifles will work on both gases . You also stated that bear should not be hunted with a AR . in a earlier post . If hunters use bows then why not a AR . Scroll down the home page on this site and view the pictures as well . Marvin
http://www.extremebigboreairrifles.com/

[Multigunner]

Brown Bear are a bit tougher than I'd want to try taking down with the Large caliber air guns that are at present available. As I said few of these have more muzzle energy and penetration than a large caliber pistol.

There are some very powerful bows these days but I remember and Indian hunter being quoted as saying that no American Indian ever killed a Grizzly till the introduction of firearms by the Whites.
The Last member of the California Yani tribe and a highly skilled archer stated that when faced by a Grizzly the only way they could be brought down with bows was for the entire hunting party to fire volley after volley at as long a range as possible. Of course they had no magnum handguns or rifles at hand to take up the slack if they missed a vital spot.
Old Moses had more than one hundred healed over bullet wounds in his body before being taken down by more than two magazines of 30-40 Krag and if not for one of the first shots clipping his spine he would have added the hunter to the dozens of other professional hunters he had killed. He even had two 38-55 slugs buried in his brain and long healed over.
Nope you won't see me trusting my life to either bow and arrow or airgun when it comes to animals that can eat you for supper.

[melloairman]

A new under $ 700 BB low volume fill multi gas AR . AT 2017 shot show. Marvin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS1l7WWYW2g&feature=em-uploademail

[Multigunner]

Very nice. But it raises the question of regulations on 'fixed ammunition".

I think my basic idea was better in the long run.

The technology to produce quick change small capacity high pressure canisters is certainly here.

[jcwit]

A new under $ 700 BB low volume fill multi gas AR . AT 2017 shot show. Marvin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS1l7WWYW2g&feature=em-uploademail

Nowhere did they describe these as AR guns or BB guns. LOL

[jh45gun]

Actually AR stands for Armalite Rifle.

[melloairman]

Found this clip on the rolling block . Lots of info . Marvin
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=ymyy-t-999&p=modac+air+rifle+reviews#id=1&vid=07a91c910737b21659c52fcc15037b26&action=click

[Multigunner]

The Modoc looks to be a very nicely done redesign of an old classic single shot action to handle these air cartridges. Looks to be very well made as well.

The air cartridge it uses seems to be an evolutionary step of the Brocock air cartridge.

looking over some valve parts in my bin the other night I let my imagination take wing and came up with a simple air rifle design that would use the same parts coupled with the butt stock enclosed HPA cylinder I mentioned. The first thing that came to mind was the Civil War era Warner Carbine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7lIjY-UYZU

The breech block would look the same externally but most of its length would only serve as a cover for the valve body.

[melloairman]

Found this clip on the rolling block . Lots of info . Marvin
https://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=ymyy-t-999&p=modac+air+rifle+reviews#id=1&vid=07a91c910737b21659c52fcc15037b26&action=click
Found some info on the company that makes the rifle . They make PB rolling blocks as well if you check out their product line .Marvin
http://tippmannarmory.com/index.html

[melloairman]

Here is a man that hunts with a BB and uses a hand pump . Uses a BB with arrows in the first part and slugs in the second . He speaks about controversy in the second part as well .Marvin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl5F65ALB3I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDdARRxjUvE&list=TLGGefD6593kBvkxMjAyMjAxNw

[Multigunner]

The discussion of PCP and gas powered guns brought to mind the prop trank rifle used on the old sci fi TV series "Voyage to the bottom of the sea".
That air gun, if it in fact was an operational air gun, was built from a No.5 Enfield carbine.
A large air or gas tank was fitted to an aluminum valve body that was fitted into the magazine well. No fore end was present, though some had vertical fore grips that may have come from the STEN Mark 5 SMG.
All metal was chrome or nickel plated.

The basic idea was sound. The detachable bolt head of the Enfield could be replaced with one that had a probe with O-ring seal. The valve could be tripped by an extension of the cocking piece. The stroke of the bolt would allow use of darts of three inches in length, perhaps longer.
The barrel, which had the No.5 flash hider and sight painted red or orange as airsoft muzzles are today, seemed to be a straight tube of possibly .50 bore.

The cylinder for these looked to be the helium tank once used with deep sea scuba gear to add helium to the breathing mixture to replace nitrogen in the blood preventing nitrogen narcosis and the bends.