.44-40 Factory Crimp Die problem

[dikman]

As the FCD worked so well on the .38 I bought an FCD for reloading my .44-40. All looked ok, but half-way through a competition at the range my Winchester jammed! Looked like an empty case hadn't ejected, but when I pulled it out I could see that the boolit had been pushed back into the case!!!! One more shot and it happened again, at which point I stopped shooting it. I ended up using the original roll-crimp die and reseated all my loaded cases.

After much messing around I discovered that if I push an empty case into the FCD the top of the case is flush with the top edge of the crimper, which is what I would expect, however if I put the case into the shellplate and then push the FCD on the case sits lower inside (obviously by the thickness of the top of the shellplate where it grips the rim). This means that the crimp edge is now aligned with the boolit, not the case.

This would suggest that this FCD can't, in fact, be used for .44-40. Anyone else have any experience with this?

[Bent Ramrod]

I don't have a progressive reloading setup, so no shell plate, just regular shell holders in a single stage press. I don't look so much for the mouth of the case showing in the FCD as for making sure the three little gaps around the collet are closed tight, but not overly tight.

I have .44-40 cases that I shortened slightly the better to fit the loaded rounds into the cylinders of a Remington 1890 clone, and as long as the crimp collet pinches shut as above, the 42498 boolit I use doesn't come forward from recoil.

Sorry I can't help you with a repeater with spring and tube, which might put more strain on the crimp, but a common observation/complaint when the FCD first came out was that they would form their own crimp groove even in jacketed bullets. Some rival reloading tool manufacturer tried to push the notion that Lee FCDs "deformed" such bullets, ruining accuracy, but properly set, they do no such thing and the ad was dropped due to lack of traction. However, for short range shooting, you could set the FCD to mash a crimp groove into your boolits.

The Lee FCD has made all the difference in my .44-40 loading. Variations in the roll crimp, which ran from too loose, allowing the boolits to move forward, to too tight, making a bulge behind the crimp that prevented chambering, used to make a loading session a real ordeal. At that time, it seemed every box of 50 shells would be a different length, mostly shorter than standard.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

My experience with the LFCD has been very similar to Bent Ramrod's. I use a RCBS Rockchucker press and the die works fine on my .44-40 cases. I also gauge the crimp by how far the collet gaps close, and when they close completely they produce a very visible crimp. It sounds like yours just isn't compatible with your press set-up, but really isn't the fault of the die.

[stranded1980]

I've never loaded 44-40, but the guy in the below youtube video did, and you can watch him set up the Lee Factory Crimp die for it. It might help with your set-up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS2Hv14RdeU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS2Hv14RdeU)

[Patrick56]

Never had any problems with the 44-40 Lee FCD. The one for the 30-30 Win works well also, as I have never had any problems with cartridges in my Winchester 94 AE either. Bought also one for my .44Rem Mag Winchester 94 and Ruger Super Blackhawk as the earlier ones did what they promised.

[Walkingwolf]

Bottle neck cases use a different system to factory crimp, case length is very important. Be careful how much you trim.

You should contact Lee if you are having a problem with new cases, which should be the proper length. You could also have someone with a lathe take a few thousands off the bottom of the FCD to accommodate shorter than factory cases. Keep in mind Starline trims their cases short, probably because they know they will be reloaded. Also trim cases before sizing.

[gpidaho]

My Lee 44-40 factory crimp die is the rifle style collet crimp. On my single stage and turret presses I screw the die down in the press until contact is made with the case when ram is at it's top stroke then back off a bit and screw the die in small steps at a time until the crimp is what I want. Gp

[MT Chambers]

Unnecessary die, all my pistol reloads are crimped in the Redding seating die, usually as a separate step, including for my .44/40.

[dikman]

Thanks for the responses, guys. My .38 FCD has quite a bit of adjustment available, but the .44-40 is different, with no adjustments, same as the video that stranded linked to. It's rather bizarre, as the case lengths are correct and it's a Lee die with a Lee press so one would assume it would work.

Walkingwolf, I came to the same conclusion, that removing metal from the bottom of the crimp part is the only way to make it work properly, but unfortunately it's going to need more than a few thou removed.

A bit of a conundrum.

[dikman]

Based on the responses here, and that video, I did a bit more experimenting. In order to crimp the adjustment is critical, there's no leeway. The die has to be adjusted so that the shellplate is pushing the moving part of the die hard up against the bottom of the die, then it will crimp - just. While it would be fine for a revolver, I'm not convinced it would have the holding power to resist the action of a lever rifle. I might do a few one day, as a trial, but for now I think I'll stick to the "standard" roll-crimp.

[Walkingwolf]

Based on the responses here, and that video, I did a bit more experimenting. In order to crimp the adjustment is critical, there's no leeway. The die has to be adjusted so that the shellplate is pushing the moving part of the die hard up against the bottom of the die, then it will crimp - just. While it would be fine for a revolver, I'm not convinced it would have the holding power to resist the action of a lever rifle. I might do a few one day, as a trial, but for now I think I'll stick to the "standard" roll-crimp.

Use the roll crimp, then take the bulge out with the FCD for revolvers. If your rounds do not bind in a lever I don't think you need the FCD. I started using a FCD for a Marlin 94 44 mag due to cartridges loaded with black powder failing to feed after a few stages. The FCD cleared up the problem, but the 44-40 is a tapered case, it should not experience the same problem with a roll crimp.

[dikman]

Funny you should mention that as I was thinking the same thing. I had a lot of problems initially with getting the roll-crimp right, as the cartridges were often tight when loading, and I eventually realised that getting the crimping right was very touchy. Tomorrow I'll try cycling some of those that I've just loaded and if they're tight I'll run them through the FCD. I have a spare hole in the press so I can fit it if necessary.

[Patrick56]

My Lee 44-40 factory crimp die is the rifle style collet crimp. On my single stage and turret presses I screw the die down in the press until contact is made with the case when ram is at it's top stroke then back off a bit and screw the die in small steps at a time until the crimp is what I want. Gp
In my opinion this is the right way to do it! No need to remove any metal from the bottom.

[dikman]

No argument from me, that is the type I have for my .38. Unfortunately, the type that is supplied for .44-40 is simpler, with no adjustment.

[Patrick56]

No argument from me, that is the type I have for my .38. Unfortunately, the type that is supplied for .44-40 is simpler, with no adjustment.
As is was written, the adjustment is to screw the whole die in to get the crimp you want.

[dikman]

I agree, unfortunately it doesn't give a reliable crimp. I noticed that the actual crimp is not right at the end (rim) of the case, close examination of the die shows that the crimp "ring" is not at the end of the die but below the rim, so no way can it crimp at the end of the case. Doesn't matter, the roll-crimp is working fine so I'll stick with that.

[Patrick56]

I do not understand why the crimp has to be exactly at the end of the case. With roll crimps there is no other way to do it for sure. It´s more a matter of adjusting the crimp groove on the bullet to the right height in the case with the bullet seater before crimping. Take a close look at military cartridges and the place of the crimp.

[dikman]

I understand what you're saying, Patrick, and certainly in the case of a revolver it probably doesn't matter, but a lever rifle is a bit different. The magazine spring is exerting pressure on all the cartridges (in line) so any that don't have a tight crimp will end up with the boolit being pushed back into the case - which is what is happening to me. I did a bit more experimenting and if the die is adjusted so that the shell plate is pushing very hard against the die it will do a light crimp at the end of the case (and into the crimp groove), but I'm not happy with the force I have to exert on the press to do this, so the FCD will be relegated to the "stuff I don't use" box. I just can't take the chance of the rifle jamming during a competition.

[r1kk1]

I've used that same die in a 550 and had no problems. I do have a taper crimp die from CH4D that I perferred. I'm using a taper crimp on the wife's 454 Cassull lever action and it works well in it.

take care

r1kk1

[Patrick56]

I understand what you're saying, Patrick, and certainly in the case of a revolver it probably doesn't matter, but a lever rifle is a bit different. The magazine spring is exerting pressure on all the cartridges (in line) so any that don't have a tight crimp will end up with the boolit being pushed back into the case - which is what is happening to me. I did a bit more experimenting and if the die is adjusted so that the shell plate is pushing very hard against the die it will do a light crimp at the end of the case (and into the crimp groove), but I'm not happy with the force I have to exert on the press to do this, so the FCD will be relegated to the "stuff I don't use" box. I just can't take the chance of the rifle jamming during a competition.
I have been using the LFCD in my Winchester lever action rifles mod94 and 65 in calibers 30-30W and 25-20W with no problems.

[dikman]

I looked up the dies for your calibres and the construction is different to mine. Yours have some adjustment in them, mine does not, as you can see from the photo mine has maybe 2-3 mm travel when the inner part is pushed up by the shellplate - and that's it.
186473
I looked up the .44-40 FCD on Titan's website and they now show a different design to what I have! looks like I'm going to have to modify this thing if I want it to work.

A bit later. I made two dummy rounds, one with a roll crimp and one with a factory crimp (set for the maximum crimp I can get with this die). I then put them in a vice and squeezed very gently, the roll crimp didn't budge, but the factory crimped boolit started moving down into the case. Not good.

At maximum crimp the "slots" in the die are closed, so no deeper crimping is possible, but because the top of the case is still approx. 3 mm below the top of the crimp die there's no way I can get a tight enough crimp. Looks like I need to take enough off the bottom of the inner crimp tube to allow the case to reach the top of the crimp tube and a few mm off the bottom of the outer die body to allow the inner crimp tube to still close up.

I figure I've got nothing to lose as it certainly can't work like it is.

[Patrick56]

Wonder what diameter bullets you have been using?

[dikman]

Patrick, that has also occurred to me as a possible issue. They're sized to .426 (I slugged the barrel, of course, to figure out what I needed). This die, unlike other Lee dies I have, isn't hardened so it was easy to modify in the lathe. Unfortunately, no matter what I do it simply will not crimp tight enough to stop the boolit moving back in the case. The next step would be to slightly widen the slots in the inner tube, to allow it to tighten a bit more, but at this stage I can't be bothered doing any more with it. My RCBS roll-crimp die is working perfectly so I reckon I'll stick with that.

Personally, I think the design of this particular die is the wrong one for this case and it should be the same type as you have (which is what they now show on the website). I'm just perplexed as to exactly what sort of crimp this die is supposed to do.