of 45Colt, hs6, and seating depth

[Thundermaker]

I've been reading up on 45 colt powders lately. Hs6 kept coming up as a clean burning and accurate powder. I was interested in the former, as just about every load I've tried would make you think I was shooting black powder. Most people use it in heavy loads for Blackhawks. I found load data on the hodgdon site for SAA loads and decided to try them in my 5.5" uberti cattleman 2 (hate that new safety BTW). Seating depth seems very critical with this powder. The minimum load was 9.7 grains under a 250 grain cast bullet for 746fps. I started with 10 grains under my 255 grain Xtreme plated fp bullets. I was going for around 800 fps velocity.

My initial COAL was 1.59". This put the case mouth at the bottom of the cannellure. The final oal put it at the top of the cannellure so that it is not visible. Generous crimp was applied, as I knew I was dealing with a big case with a lot of free space, and that was going to present some powder burning problems. My chronograph results are as follows.


Description: xtreme 0.452
Notes 2: oal-1.590"
Bullet Weight (gr): 255.000
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
6 667 251.95 170.09
5 777 341.90 198.13
4 805 366.98 205.27
3 733 304.27 186.91
2 706 282.27 180.03
1 752 320.25 191.76
Average: 740.00
StdDev: 49.54
Min: 667
Max: 805
Spread: 138

Description: xtreme 0.452
Notes 2: oal-1.562"
Bullet Weight (gr): 255.000
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
5 827 387.32 210.88
4 785 348.98 200.18
3 701 278.29 178.76
2 795 357.92 202.73
1 826 386.38 210.63
Average: 786.80
StdDev: 51.44
Min: 701
Max: 827
Spread: 126

Description: xtreme 0.452
Notes 2: oal-1.535"
Bullet Weight (gr): 255.000
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
7 716 290.32 182.58
6 ERROR 2
5 803 365.16 204.76
4 767 333.16 195.59
3 751 319.40 191.51
2 751 319.40 191.51
1 747 316.01 190.49
Average: 755.83
StdDev: 28.50
Min: 716
Max: 803
Spread: 87

Since the new brass I was using was all different sizes, giving unequal neck tension between rounds, I ran some through the sizing die before loading just to see if I could shrink that SD. Here are those results.

Description: xtreme.452
Notes 2: 1.563" sized
Bullet Weight (gr): 255.000
Shots
# FPS FT-LBS PF
10 815 376.16 207.82
9 828 388.25 211.14
8 758 325.38 193.29
7 805 366.98 205.27
6 695 273.54 177.23
5 722 295.21 184.11
4 724 296.85 184.62
3 790 353.44 201.45
2 880 438.55 224.40
1 757 324.52 193.04
Average: 777.40
StdDev: 56.69
Min: 695
Max: 880
Spread: 185

I was getting a little more consistency, I thought, until I sized those cases. The best group I got was 3" at 7 yards. I got a lot of unburned powder grains with the first two loads. I've tried the max SAA load of 10.8 grains in my redhawk. That load proved reasonably accurate. Others report good results with 10 grains under the RCBS 270SAA, which is a 270 grain mold that tends to cast about 280 gr with wheelweights. I could go higher on the powder charge, but that would put me at higher velocity and recoil than I want. The conclusion I'm drawing here is that hs6 is only really good for max loads or extremely heavy bullets in the LC.

Any other powder suggestions?

[rond]

Have you tried a magnum primer to see if you can get a better burn of the powder? Unique has always worked well for me in .45 Colt.

[Thundermaker]

I was using winchester large pistol "for standard and magnum loads". I could shove a large rifle in there, see if that helps. I'm so low on the pressure scale at this point, it can't really hurt. I also have some "Shooters world heavy pistol" I'm going to try. It's a slower, bulkier powder.

[osteodoc08]

I've used HS-6 at the middle pressure loads suitable for the N frames and have had good luck under the 45-270-SAA boolit. Used it in a mountain gun and regret selling it. Wish I had it back. I still use those loads in my 45 Colt Marlins and they provide some thump without being abusive.

I wont provide data as it would be over pressure for the SAA replica, but use the illustrate to suggest bumping your powder charge if able too as I had clean burning and decent accuracy.

[Thundermaker]

I've used HS-6 at the middle pressure loads suitable for the N frames and have had good luck under the 45-270-SAA boolit. Used it in a mountain gun and regret selling it. Wish I had it back. I still use those loads in my 45 Colt Marlins and they provide some thump without being abusive.

I wont provide data as it would be over pressure for the SAA replica, but use the illustrate to suggest bumping your powder charge if able too as I had clean burning and decent accuracy.

Yeah, that's what I'm seeing. Burns great at max loads. I'll keep that 270grain load in mind for my redhawk.

[USSR]

I was using winchester large pistol "for standard and magnum loads". I could shove a large rifle in there, see if that helps.

Don't do that! Unlike small pistol/small rifle primers, large pistol/large rifle primers are dimensionally different.

Don

[Thundermaker]

Don't do that! Unlike small pistol/small rifle primers, large pistol/large rifle primers are dimensionally different.

Don

I've loaded rifle primers in a lot of pistol ammo back when no stores around here carried pistol primers. I've never had a problem. No protruding primers, not difficult seating, nothing. The only problem I've seen is that glocks don't reliably pop them. I don't mess with Glock, so that's not my problem.

There may be a set of specs somewhere that says they're supposed to be different, but I have yet to see it.

[therealhitman]

Those SD numbers would be ugly in a rifle cartridge at three times the velocity. Have you played with your crimp at all?

[John Boy]

Burns great at max loads If that be the case and poor burns/low fps with other reloads ... the pressure is not uniform at ignition. Your crimp should be tight so when you run your finger over it . the brass edge is smooth - not sharp

[Thundermaker]

If that be the case and poor burns/low fps with other reloads ... the pressure is not uniform at ignition. Your crimp should be tight so when you run your finger over it . the brass edge is smooth - not sharp

There is no crimp groove in this bullet. I'm crimping until the case is biting into the bullet. Some powders just don't like to be loaded light. This might be one of them.

[Thundermaker]

Those SD numbers would be ugly in a rifle cartridge at three times the velocity. Have you played with your crimp at all?

They're ugly in this caliber too! Groups are garbage.

[USSR]

I've loaded rifle primers in a lot of pistol ammo back when no stores around here carried pistol primers. I've never had a problem. No protruding primers, not difficult seating, nothing. The only problem I've seen is that glocks don't reliably pop them. I don't mess with Glock, so that's not my problem.

There may be a set of specs somewhere that says they're supposed to be different, but I have yet to see it.

Okay, here's your specs - can you see it?
186217

[Thundermaker]

Okay, here's your specs - can you see it?
186217

Yes, I see it. Now see this. I have loaded thousands of pistol rounds with rifle primers with no problems. I repeat, no problems. That means that rounds were loaded, and nothing went wrong. Everything went right (except for the glocks).

[USSR]

Evidently you can't see it. .133" - .125" in additional height for large rifle primers is 8 thousands; enough so that the rifle primers in handgun brass won't seat well below flush and just begging for something bad to happen. I would ask anyone enrolled in my NRA reloading class with such a cavalier attitude towards safety to leave.

Don

[Thundermaker]

Evidently you can't see it. .133" - .125" in additional height for large rifle primers is 8 thousands; enough so that the rifle primers in handgun brass won't seat well below flush and just begging for something bad to happen. I would ask anyone enrolled in my NRA reloading class with such a cavalier attitude towards safety to leave.

Don

Oh, you're an NRA instructor. I get it now. Well, my information comes from observation and testing, not The internet. My primers seat just fine. They don't protrude from the back of the case. You can post all charts and spout all the condescension you want. You're not going to convince me that I'm not seeing what I'm seeing. On paper, they're supposed to be different, but I'd be willing to bet that primer manufacturers aren't making 4 different primer cups, and the brass manufacturers aren't punching 4 different primer pockets. Even my Lyman manual just says to reduce the powder charge a bit when using rifle primers in pistol cartridges. That is why the hierarchy of informational reliability is as follows.

Direct observation >video >book >internet >word of mouth >CNN

Now, back on subject. 45 colt and hs6.

[USSR]

Thunder, you do whatever trips your trigger. But please don't advise others in your unsafe practices.

Don

[Thundermaker]

Thunder, you do whatever trips your trigger. But please don't advise others in your unsafe practices.

Don

Make sure you call Lyman and tell them they don't know what they're talking about either.

[rond]

Could someone measure some large rifle primers to see if there is an actual difference? I don't have the tools or I would.

[Thundermaker]

Could someone measure some large rifle primers to see if there is an actual difference? I don't have the tools or I would.

I'll see if I have a few laying around. I may be considered an unreliable source, though I never said there was no difference. I just said that it doesn't cause any problems.

[USSR]

I may be considered an unreliable source, though I never said there was no difference.

Hard to say what you said, since you edited your post to remove what you said about the difference.

Don

[Thundermaker]

Hard to say what you said, since you edited your post to remove what you said about the difference.

Don

I originally misinterpreted the chart. I would ask if you're happy now, but you don't seem like the type.

[TMenezes]

First off I read the OPs first post but not all the following so if I repeat something already stated or answered I offer my apologies.

In my experience HS6 burns clean and consistent in the medium to heavy loads but loves hot primers. Federal Magnum primers work the best for that, my Spear manual has a load of 12gr HS6 under a 250 cast slug. Sounds like you need to try hotter primers and more powder or switch a faster powder. 700X works well for me in lighter loads and does not require hot primers.

Also tried 13gr of HS6 under 250gr cast on the suggestion of a John Linebaugh article and found that to be an excellent load but possibly slightly +P so keep that in mind if you try it.

[Thundermaker]

First off I read the OPs first post but not all the following so if I repeat something already stated or answered I offer my apologies.

In my experience HS6 burns clean and consistent in the medium to heavy loads but loves hot primers. Federal Magnum primers work the best for that, my Spear manual has a load of 12gr HS6 under a 250 cast slug. Sounds like you need to try hotter primers and more powder or switch a faster powder. 700X works well for me in lighter loads and does not require hot primers.

Also tried 13gr of HS6 under 250gr cast on the suggestion of a John Linebaugh article and found that to be an excellent load but possibly slightly +P so keep that in mind if you try it.

Yes, 13gr is very much +p, lol. 10.8 is about as high as I can go in my SAA clone. I do think a hotter primer is in order.

[USSR]

I always use magnum primers with HS-6. Same goes for 4227. W296/H110 also requires a magnum primer, but since those 2 powders cannot be used with reduced loads, I refuse to use them.

Don

[Thundermaker]

Well, I'm now at a max load of 10.5 grains. Accuracy is better but for the odd flier. I'm getting the occasional velocity spike. If I could go a little higher, that would probably solve the issue, but I'm at the maximum for the SAA, and I'm in the 900fps range. It would be a fine powder for heavy loads in the redhawk, but it's just not going to work for my purposes. Now to move on to my Shooter's World "Heavy Pistol".

[Thundermaker]

Shooters world heavy pistol. Minimum load of 15.4 grains. Listed velocity of 787 fps. It flattens my primers like a max hs6 load and it's filthy. It is more accurate though.