belgium .320 s&w copy bulldog issues

[loiner1965]

decided to tinker with the old girl as it was hit and miss with the cylinder indexing etc.
although it will never be used i still like it to work as it was made too.
removed hammer and trigger guard and re-assembled but it works perfect in double action but not in single action...the hammer stays back and will not release on pulling the trigger etc.
is they a knack on reassembling these ?
downloaded a book from net about bulldogs but not this version in particular and i am doing what it says but i must be missing something out......hoping you guys can shed some light on it.
many thanks

[LAGS]

I have a Belgian British Bulldog that I bought and it was missing the hammer.
So I made a hammer for it.
I have not made the Fly for it yet, but it shoots fine in single action.
The cylinder takes a 38 S&W cartridge, but the Bore slugs out to only .340"
So I take 9mm lead bullets, size them to .340 then crimp the cases down to fit the bullet, load the cases then recrimp the casing to hold the bullet.
I intend on displaying it in a shadow box on the wall with a Sherlock Holmes theme, with the Ivory Pipe, a Scottish Plad Background, a Magnifying Glass, and a Glass Hypodermic Syrenge.

On this gun I have, the sear is just a simple piece of metal that pivots on a threadded pin.
Perhaps you installed it backwards.
If you can post a picture of the sear and hammer, then I can determine if it is the same set up as the one I have.
These guns are so Basic.
But it would be of help to me to see what the double action Fly on the front of the hammer, or the hammer for that matter looks like, to see if what I built from scratch, and Trial and Error, is close to the original design.

[LAGS]

All of these what I call Sucide Specials were missing parts, or had something seriously wrong with them where they could not be fired.
One was welded together, one was rusted and non operable, others had 32 or .38 bores that were too rusted to shoot.
So I sleeved the bore and cylinder to .22 LR and modified them to a rimfire Firing pin.
Hay, I got them shooting again.

[loiner1965]

Hi
looks like the one on the bottom left of your photo but internals can be different.
not taken the sear or indexing lever out just hammer / spring and sear return spring which basically drops out when trigger guard is removed.
they is a long line of script on top of the barrel which ends something like revolver patent....
will need to examine closely when I get home as I never saw it before and I had it years.
will

[loiner1965]

Sorry for not finishing text but cast boolits just locked up when typing so posted what I had written.
will post a pic of the hammer....this is definitely .320 cal but I will / cannot fire them here in the uk due to gun laws but I like it to function

[loiner1965]

185777

[LAGS]

Thank You for the picture of the Hammer.
I will tear mine down today and post a picture of the Hammer I made for the one I have.
I made it so it was functional only because I had No Idea on what the hammer or Mainspring was supposed to look like.
But this will help me get mine back to looking and functioning like it is supposed to.
I tell people, I am not a Gunsmith.
I am a Firearms Recycler.
I take old broken or junk guns and either restore them in some fashion , or build the parts into something functional and most times Shootable.
For the guns I build, you can not find the replacement parts, or the parts wont function due to wear on other parts.
So I am forced to Make Many of the parts.
The Springs are the hardest part to make and temper correctly, but with a little time, I get them working.

[loiner1965]

mine as far as i can remember function properly in both 1st and 2nd action but was hit and miss and indexing etc.
i watched a video on youtube and decided to clean and re oil it as its only a cupboard drawer revolver etc.
i undid the trigger guard and the trigger return spring fell out.....thats when the trouble started.
it indexes perfectly if i take hammer / main spring out and refit sear spring but when i rebuild it the ist stage doesnt work.
it may be something simple so i like to ask rather than get frustrated.
i have an old remington rolling block pistol which needed a sear spring and the main spring was bubbered to work.
a chap over the pond (usa) supplied the sear spring but not the main.
the hammer was so loose and flimsey and wasnt right.
i got a spring which looked similar but not the right shape....i heated up to cherry red all over and dropped in water.
i fitted and bent the spring to shape....reheated to a straw colour all over then left over night to cool.
perfect shape and the trigger is superb to use and smacks a primered case good.
i shortened a 50/70 case to fit but it wouldnt fire a primer off which was annoying ( over here we cannot use this pistol due to gun laws )
its a wall hanger but i like it to function as it was made for....
i annealled / retempered the spring a few times and each time it worked perfectly but not capping off.........i had a doh ! moment and inserted a large pistol primer as i do with cbc cases for snider / martini henry and bingo....fire everytime.

[LAGS]

Here are some pictures of the guts.
What does your Mainspring look like if you don't mind.

[loiner1965]

simple as this
185794

[LAGS]

Thank you again.
See I didn't know if the hammer had a yoke or toggle on it , so I did the best I could.
But now I have an idea of how the parts look.
Now when reassembling my pistol.
I found that if I put the Sear Spring in up side down , the hammer would not release when cooked.
Hope that helps

[loiner1965]

it releases in double action but not single so you may be right....it all started when i took out the sear spring
many thanks

[LAGS]

You are welcome.
I love helping others , especially ones who still have or shoot these pistols from Days Gone By.
Sorry your gun laws are so restrictive.
That was the main reason I moved from California to Arizona, Stupid Gun Laws that restrict our hobby.

[loiner1965]

tis true.......i shoot.....2 x rimfires, .223 / 308 / 30-06 / 8mm mauser . martini henry / snider / brown bess / 577 enfields / 1842 eic muskets and .44 bp pistol so not too bad i suppose

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The trouble with versions is that there were so many variations and hand-fitted parts with these Belgian revolvers, that you can't count on close guidance on parts shapes, let alone interchangeability. The original Webley versions are collectible enough to justify a good deal of restoration work, but in cold cash terms the Belgian ones aren't. Still, that probably isn't your motive, and somebody has to do it!

Problems with the function of these revolvers are most often due to the springs, or rounding of the tip of the hand where it engages with the cylinder ratchet. But neither will be the case if your hammer engages but won't release. I'd say the most likely thing is a substitution of parts. If the double action is smooth and well timed (rotating the chambers into line but not seizing up as the rotating hand pushes on the star after it is locked), that would almost certainly be the wrong sear, which is fortunate, as it is a lot easier to makethan a hammer. Or you could build it up with weld or solder a piece of metal to it, to make contact with the trigger. But you must make sure the top end of the sear is protected from anneaing, by holding it in pliers.

The separate sear is actually quite a good system, since it is light and better balanced on opposite sides of its pivot than a trigger is. So it is less likely to jar off if dropped when cocked, than a single-action with trigger-to-hammer contact. There isn't the risk of damaging the undercut half-cock notch which you find with Colts etc., through improper manipulation of the trigger.

This is my current restoration project, a Webley, probably of the 1860s and technically similar to their cap and ball revolvers and their enormous .577, of the type which preceded the Bulldogs. They haven't quite latched onto the fact that most people who wanted a .32 rimfire wanted it small, and they haven't yet started using Tranter's (or indeed any) ejector.

It avoids the characteristic you find in many cheap Belgian revolvers, of having the hand spring crimped into a slot in the hand, and sliding up and down its channel. What looks like a thickened butt end to the spring, showing a puzzling resistance to removal, is in fact extended in the form of a rod extending through a hole all the way to the top of the hand, where it can be driven out with a punch.

185935


This revolver wouldn't engage the hammer in single action, but the cause was quite different from yours. The sear spring, which was mounted in the sear rather than the frame, was missing. The springs actually present, and the hammer notches, were as good as the day they were made.

This is my double-trigger cap and ball Tranter having a new hammer lifter made. The tip of the old one is brass, and you can see where I have silver soldered new lugs for it. On the extreme left you see the hand spring, with the cylindrical extension which has surely fooled people into doing serious damage by trying to loosen non-existent crimping of the hand. The slight bend in the cylinder gives spring tension to lock it in place. Those people in the dawn of the revolver were not primitives.

185936
On this web page you can see the hammer I made for my 12mm. Spirlet revolver:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20s/a%20spirlet%20fr.htm

The best sequence is to make a wooden dummy hammer, and add a firing-pin of car body filler, cast to march the hole and front of the recess. Only then mark, through the hole, where you have to drill it for the axis pin, copy it in steel, and start on the outside of the hammer.

My little Webley operates by a pivoted lifter on the trigger fitting into a hole in the front of the hammer, like the cap and ball Webleys, but the Bulldogs, notably the OP's, are more modern. Whatever the double-action arrangement, it must release the hammer just a tiny bit short of engaging the single-action sear when it isn't wanted. It must also be just a tiny bit closer to the axis of rotation than the single-action notch, so that the sear doesn't strike it during the single-action hammer fall.

General Custer is often described as having carried a pair of Bulldogs at the Little Bighorn, but I think they are likely to have been the slightly larger RIC (Royal Irish Constabulary) revolver, probably in .442 or .450. Elmer Keith described the RIC as the best police revolver ever made, and for a detective who must carry concealed and isn't much concerned with reloading, it isn't bad.

I only started collecting cartridge revolvers in the UK when cartridge revolvers got banned. I could use any I cared to licence and lodge in a government approved shooting centre, like the political prisoners they would then be. But I have never really wanted to, as pistols, my friends when merely cherished, show an obstinate resistance to pointing the right direction for me. Our government's list of firearms uncontrolled as antiques, although hard fought-for, is one of the more sensible things they have done, and it would be rude to leave a concession unutilised. Based on the ammunition not being commercially available, it extends up to 1939, and even includes a few full-automatics. I have imported many firearms as a result, from the US and Australia, and have never had it queried by customs, or a package opened so far as I can tell.

I'd much rather restrictions on firearms were less. But it goes with attitudes which mean criminals being reluctant to shoot anyone if they can get out of it, and the public, except for the occasional weirdo, not thinking we are knuckle-dragging psychos lusting for blood.

[LAGS]

I never had Visions of these old pistols being worth more then their weight as scrap metal.
But they function, and it gives me the practice I need to have the skills to work on or rebuild the occasional Diamond in the Rough that I may come across some day.
A good percentage of guns that I aquire , and mostly for Free, are ones that people have taken to 4 or 5 gunsmiths and got the same story from each one
That Aint worth Nothing.
You cant find parts, or they would be unsafe to shoot ever again.
And their cost to try and make or fix one part wold far exceed the cost the gun would ever be worth.
So people just give them to me, or trade for some minor work on another one of their guns.
But when placed in a Shadow Box with a Theme and sold as semi functional decorations, I have got more than three times what the gun was worth in Original condition.

[nekshot]

I wish I had a bunch of those things to mess with!! I never saw much in the way of handguns as a kid due to my upbringing. Shot guns and rifles (especially those 32 rim fire and such) were in all farmers tobacco stripping rooms.