How do I mix alloys?

[mwarren]

I ask because I put 60 lbs in a pot and stirred it as well as 2 fluxings. When having an ingot tested, each side tested quite different.

[runfiverun]

if you melt 2 alloys together it becomes one alloy.
it works like mixing water with milk.
you still got milk it's just watered down, or you still got water it's just milked up.

[mwarren]

when i mixed mine, it was more like water and oil. some areas had more antimony when others had none.

[BK7saum]

How much did you stir the pot? What size are your ingots? How did you cool them after they were poured?

[Half Dog]

Great question. I might have a similar mixing/stirring issue because I can get different weight bullets when I cast. I have seen a difference of 4 grains when I cast from a pot into a 200 gr, 45 ACP mold. I have been using a wooden paint stirrer. I don't want to hijack a thread, just wanted to inject questions that might help the OP too.

How often do you stop casting to stir the pot?
Are there indicators to let you know the lead is blended well?

[Yodogsandman]

I ask because I put 60 lbs in a pot and stirred it as well as 2 fluxings. When having an ingot tested, each side tested quite different.

What type of testing? It's quite possible for the test equipment to test different readings from the same ingot. It could just be within the percentage of error of the equipment used. Just the time it takes an ingot to cool from one side to the other will effect readings. Ingot tests will have wide variations of readings. Most test methods are just from the outside "skin" of the test ingot.

[Chill Wills]

Pb, Sb, Sn is not a mechanical mixture like sand and water. Specific gravity can not sort the hot liquid into layers. Once your metal is up to casting temperature the surface and air interact. Oxides are produced that are lighter and tend to stay on the top. That is a different subject.

It would be unlikely you have found a way to separate your alloy into constituents in your home casting pot. There would be some other explanation for the hardness numbers you recorded.

Lead alloy hardness is dynamic though we most often treat it as though it is a constant. Still, that does not account for a large hardness spread you measured. I would look at other reasons. The testing process itself might be a good starting point.

[runfiverun]

if it's a bhn test the cooling rate will affect that.
if it's an X-ray type test and they shoot some oxides that will show different too.

[georgerkahn]

Hard to answer, not "being there" to see your set-up. Two queries which come to my mind are: 1/ What is the temperature of your mix? The metals you are mixing do have different melting temps, and I've noticed when I'm just past the sludge-state in melt, I may have similar as you; BUT, when heated higher, the alloy gets "water thin" and is well mixed. 2/ You indicated you fluxed twice. WHAT are you using? I've used pine sawdust, which many prefer, but also beeswax, red cheese wax, old candles, and Brownell's Marvelux. While I've oft' read folks dissing the last (Marvelux) I clearly recall a mix of COWW and "mystery lead" which would not mix as well as I liked until I used this product to flux. While I wrote "two things", there is also that chance of a third -- that "z" word. 'Specially around here (New York State), lead wheel weights are most illegal to use; rare indeed is a bucket of "lead" COWWs which doesn't have a copious mixing of zinc- weights in it. I'm thankfully not familiar with, say, the affect of, say, a few zinc weights in the pot. But, it *MIGHT* cause the lack of mixeability, etc. Just a guess...
Hoping this helps a bit!
geo

[mwarren]

I used half a candle, twice, and stored for several minutes with a wooden dowel.

Using a ladle I tried to push away the oxidization an pour a Lee ingot mold.

Maybe I should try it after making it into a bottom pour

I set the mold in a tray of water to cool.

I did not file the side of the mold before the scan gun took a reading.

[KYCaster]

I have not yet seen anything posted on this site that would convince me to have any confidence in the average XRF analysis.

Jerry (color me skeptical)

[472x1B/A]

I ask because I put 60 lbs in a pot and stirred it as well as 2 fluxings. When having an ingot tested, each side tested quite different.

I don't know the answer to your question, but are you referring to ingot BHN test or ingot alloy content testing? If alloy content then ?maybe? your fluxing and stirring procedures need changed/looked at. As to the amount of alloy stirring during alloy mixing or mold pouring from a dip pot or bottom pour pot, I too would be interested in other folks length of stirring time. For example= after every 10 pours, 20-25 pours, 50 or maybe not at all during a 10 lb. pot or 20 lb. pot. mwarren, not trying to hijack your thread but am trying to learn too. Thanks

[runfiverun]

I put lead in and cast.
I might skim the top occasionally and save that stuff to reclaim later.
but it just makes more oxides again in a little while.
in my main casting pot I might reduce and scrape every 100-150 lbs.
in the little ladle pot I keep the oxides separate [put them back in] and do a reduction about every 25 or 30 lbs.
if your alloy is clean going in the casting pot [and you don't go putting a bunch of other junk in there] you don't really have anything to take back out.

my next casting session in the main pot I will drain the pot down and clean it before filling it and casting.
it's only been like 17 years since the last time I done it.

[LAH]

it's only been like 17 years since the last time I done it.

Love your simple approach.

[hutch18414]

In my casting pot I only stir when reducing. To be more specific, when I add more lead to the pot I watch the thermometer until the added lead reaches casting temp, then I take a pea sized ball of beeswax and stir pretty thoroughly, and then skim any thing that floats up. And until I add more lead, no stirring. In the smelting pot is a whole nother story. I scrape the heck out of the sides and bottom and stir constantly while working the carbon from the burnt sawdust into the lead. Rinse and repeat. If the lead just doesn't look "quite right" I will flux it again. During smelting I spend a lot of time stirring and scraping because of the gunk that seems to stick to the sides and bottom of the pot. And from your original post I gathered you were talking about your smelting pot, try some sawdust for flux instead of wax. Wax is more of a reductant that causes oxides to lose the oxygen atom and re-integrate with the alloy. Sawdust burns off to a fairly pure carbon that attracts the impurities and binds them to it. And usually this carbon mix will float to the top and then be skimmed off. With stick on wheel weights I seem to have a lot more problems with the gunk sticking to the sides and bottom of the pot.

[hutch18414]

It just occurred to me that you said opposite sides of the ingot tested differently. Are you talking about the bottom of the ingot that was in the mould as opposed to the top of the ingot that was exposed to the air?

[BNE]

What type of testing? It's quite possible for the test equipment to test different readings from the same ingot. It could just be within the percentage of error of the equipment used. Just the time it takes an ingot to cool from one side to the other will effect readings. Ingot tests will have wide variations of readings. Most test methods are just from the outside "skin" of the test ingot.

Yodogsandman and Kycaster are both correct.

XrFs will yield screwball data if you just drop a sample in and "shoot it".

I will take a sample, press it flat, scrape the top surface with a razor, then make sure it sits perpendicular to the X-ray source before testing. This makes a significant difference in the outcome.

I suspect your ingot is mixed just fine.

[hutch18414]

It is true that you can dissolve bigger chunks of antimony without grinding them up some some,but I found the extra time to dissole those big chunks to be a pain. I just took a 2"x6" pipe nipple and put a cap on it, then used my bullpen for a pestle. Kept most of the dust contained and kept the smaller chunks from flying. Biggest pieces were 1/4 " or less in diameter and instead of spend 5-6 hours stirring to dissolve the Sb it only took about 2 hours. More surface area for the lead to contact and dissolve the Sb. But I still plan on using super hard for the next batch of #2 alloy. I could probably do a 100# batch in less than 45 minutes with that, counting cooling time for ingots.

[Nose Dive]

I aside with CHILL WILLS. BHN does change with time and different alloys.

I smelt trash and corruption, thus in my smelt pot, I start with sawdust and smelt materiel. I, unlike some above, mix often and throughly with a metal spatula. Sides and bottom of pot. I, in a bad smelt, also include some sulfur from the nursery. Yes..heat up slowly and mix well. I usually add some pewter....it is my 'go too' remedy for bad ingots. I rarely have a clean 50/50 mix WW's and lead...WW's are becoming hard to find.

So...when things stop smoking and dross is removed...i add some wax....from anywhere I can cheaply find it... MIX WELL... I constantly stir the smelt...walls and bottom of pot. I pour into ingots and let rest a few days or so....or more...or more...or more...

When Casting... I do the wax trick again after the Cast Pot is all melted and then cast. After that... the BOOLITS SIT... I like three or four months....

OH!! I water drop into ICE WATER... Why you ask? Well... because...because that is the way I do it and after a few month 'resting'...I can test my BNH's and they are usually very uniform 'across that' batch of ingots. BHN's do vary from 'batch to batch' as my alloy mix varies... And Since I do not 'target shoot', I am not pushing my boolits down to .15" varinace on the paper, or watermelons, or beer bottles down range. Now I do cast for a friend who shoots his $5k black powder rifle in 'long range' events. His alloy is specific...he demands my ice water dropping and aging technique.
OK,, yes..he does win..but... it is due to his talent, expertise, rifle and HIS charging of powder and boolits in that rifle. I play a very small role.

Good Luck!

Nose Dive
Cheap, Fast, Good. Kindly pick two.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

How do I mix alloys?

I ask because I put 60 lbs in a pot and stirred it as well as 2 fluxings. When having an ingot tested, each side tested quite different.


I used half a candle, twice, and stored for several minutes with a wooden dowel.

Using a ladle I tried to push away the oxidization an pour a Lee ingot mold.

Maybe I should try it after making it into a bottom pour

I set the mold in a tray of water to cool.

I did not file the side of the mold before the scan gun took a reading.
mwarren,
welcome to the forum.
If you trust the scan gun and the scan gun operator, then whatever alloys you are blending? may need to be fluxed better.

this may help...
Chapter 4: Fluxing the Melt
"From Ingot to Target: A Cast Bullet Guide for Handgunners©"
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_4_Fluxing.htm