New Load Chamber test

[Javater]

So i loaded up some rounds using 356-120-TC at .358 PCed Seated down to 1.05.
My PT111G2 passes the plunk test and falls right out and spins freely.
My Shield 9mm plunk in the chamber decently and spins OK, but will not fall out on its own.
I found that when a round in dropped into the Shield chamber it actually creates air tight seal. Is this a good thing or bad thing? Should i go down to .356 on these boolites?

[Yodogsandman]

Do the dummy rounds feed from the magazine? If so, go try a range test.

[runfiverun]

see post number-2

[Javater]

So they do load well and shoots OK, no tumbling or keyholing at 7 and 15yds. I was concerned about "wearing" out the extractor or messing up a new gun.

[runfiverun]

the round headspaces off the case mouth.
sort of, it's supposed to, it may or may not in actuality.
the oal doesn't determine whether it does or doesn't.

[blackthorn]

the round headspaces off the case mouth.
sort of, it's supposed to, it may or may not in actuality.
the oal doesn't determine whether it does or doesn't.

Could you please expand on your post? I understand that (at least in theory) the round is supposed to headspace off the rim, but given the disparity in tolerances inherent in any manufacturing process, this would seem to be unlikely across the board. If the chamber is sloppy, would the round not headspace off the bullet? Particularly if the brass was short? If that is correct, it would seem that seating the bullet out a bit would be advantageous. Yes? No?

[mdi]

Could you please expand on your post? I understand that (at least in theory) the round is supposed to headspace off the rim, but given the disparity in tolerances inherent in any manufacturing process, this would seem to be unlikely across the board. If the chamber is sloppy, would the round not headspace off the bullet? Particularly if the brass was short? If that is correct, it would seem that seating the bullet out a bit would be advantageous. Yes? No?

While I won't presume to answer for runfiverun, the OP's talking about 9mm which is designed to seat/headspace on the case mouth, not the rim, thus one of the reasons for the plunk test. Manufacturing tolerances can easily be held to +/- .005" which would have very little effect on headspacing a semi-auto cartridge. Sometimes a "short" cartridge can be held against the bolt face enough by the extractor for the gun to function correctly If a case is too short a problem may be a failure to fire, because the case head is too deep for a good firing pin strike. I would think chamber pressures developed by the bullet jammed into the rifling/throat would/could become high enough to damage the gun.

[gwpercle]

Your O. K. , nothing to worry about......Choot Em !

[Echo]

I believe that if one were to actually measure the chamber depth, and check the case length, one would find a difference of several thousandths. My practice with the 45Auto was to seat the SWC -460 boolit out about 1/32" to contact the throat. This was suggested to me by Jim Clark, a notable expert on the subject. This reduces endplay, improving accuracy, or so Jim said. I assume the same adheres to the 9...

[Javater]

I have a set of bullets COAL 1.05, .358, 356-120-TC design and fit the chamber tightly. I have to pulled it out
I did the marker test (coloring the entire ammo) to see where it contacts. I found that its actually touching the boolit about .025 above the brass casing rim. So i set the COAL to 1.04 and noticed that distance between brass casing rim/mouth to the marked spot did NOT change.
As last resort, i switch to .356 boolit and it chambers perfectly after running it through FCD without the crimp. Boolit remained at .3565.
S&W MP Shield cant handle .358 is my guess. I would have tried .357 but wanted little wiggle room for the brass with thicker casing plus i dont have .357 sizer. I guess i will have to keep .356 and .358 boolites for different guns.

[Javater]

Does anyone have a snapshot of Lee load data with 125gr 356-120-TC COAL 1.05 starting and max load for HP38/W231?
I have mine from Zip, 124 (L) LC RN 3.4 958 3.7 1,035 34,722 1.050.

[runfiverun]

lee doesn't put out load data for their boolits.
the new lyman #4 might have some.
for 231 I would just start at 3.6 and work up 3.8 should function the guns well after that your just looking for accuracy.

[Javater]

Thanks Runfiverun that was the range i was looking for. I tested 3.7. my accuracy was bad so i need to get a pistol rest which i ordered. Now i am sizing boolits to .356 and .358. Not too much more work. oh well.

[runfiverun]

once you get it straight you'll wonder what all the trouble was.
a little tight in one pistol wouldn't slow me down much.
I'd get everything else working then come back to the one pistol.
it might be fine with the 358 diameter and just Winchester brass...

[fivefang]

R5R some 9x19 will feed most anything, the sad part is our mold manufacturers all tend to shy away & shorten the O A L from the designed 9x19 length not all who shoot this Ctg. like loads which will not cycle a Luger action , I hope the NOE 128 rf will come close, my 2cents, fivefang

[Phlier]

Thanks Runfiverun that was the range i was looking for. I tested 3.7. my accuracy was bad so i need to get a pistol rest which i ordered. Now i am sizing boolits to .356 and .358. Not too much more work. oh well.

Were you able to increase the OAL after changing to .356? If not, you may want to increase the OAL as much as the smaller .356 boolits will allow, then check accuracy again.
Also, have you tried shooting the .356 boolits in the gun you're loading up the .358's for?

[Javater]

Were you able to increase the OAL after changing to .356? If not, you may want to increase the OAL as much as the smaller .356 boolits will allow, then check accuracy again.
Also, have you tried shooting the .356 boolits in the gun you're loading up the .358's for?

i JUST did it today! i have settled on 3.8gr of HP38 for BOTH guns.
358 vs 356 W/FCD saw that 356 was little better. They were seated 1.05 for both. Cycles great. Used the data from Western Powder ZIP/Accurate#2
Give me a min and i will post pics.

[Javater]

Here are pics
185866185868
Each target was shot 6 times

they are .356 unless its says 358 on the target
356 did shoot little better and had FCD on it without crimp, no swaging seen

[Forrest r]

It's not the bullet diameter that's affecting the oal. It the difference between the bbl's. The taurus has a throated bbl & the shield has a bbl that is not throated.

A picture of a pt111g2 bbl, note the llloooooonnngggg distance between where the chamber ends (round ring) and the rifling begins. That space is the throat that is cut into the bbl.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/taurusbblthroat_zpsyrhyw9pn.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/taurusbblthroat_zpsyrhyw9pn.jpg.html)

A factory bbl (left) and a aftermarket bbl (right) that are not throated, note that from where the chamber ends (round ring) the bbl is just straight (no taper).
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/apexbblcompare_zpsqoiiurtq.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/apexbblcompare_zpsqoiiurtq.jpg.html)

The tc bullets are hitting that round ring in your shields bbl. And more pointedly the lands in the round ring. You've herd of a 308 bbl being 308/300 meaning the lands are .300". Your 9mm bbl is no different. Even if it slugs .358" the lands are still .354"/.355". The tc bullet you are using has a nose that angles/tapers straight back to the bullets shoulder/diameter.

Un-throated bbl's do extremely well with aligning rn/2r bullets in them. But they are touchy with tc designs. Perhaps you should measure 20 or 30 of your loaded rounds and see how consistent the oal's are. It's not uncommon to see a =/- .005" difference in oals.

A chronograph would be a good thing to have with your bullet selection for the 9mm. While not a graph for hp-38 it clearly shows how the oal will affect pressure s and velocities with that bullet in a 9mm.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/9mmCOLvMVvP_zpsfgancxi9.png (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/9mmCOLvMVvP_zpsfgancxi9.png.html)

I use/shoot that lee tc bullet quite a bit in the 9mm's and 38spl's. Got rid of the tl grooves in 3 of the 6 cavities and left the top tl groove in the other 3 cavities (crimp groove for revolvers). I load them longer than you do in the 9mm's, 1.130".
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/semiseat_zps9lbhbnez.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/semiseat_zps9lbhbnez.jpg.html)

But then again all my 9mm bbl's are throated.

[Phlier]

Great post Forrest r, thank you.

I hope every 9mm reloader that loads their rounds short sees the pressure curve graph. It's a real eye opener. I would love to see that graph using HP-38.

[Javater]

Thank you forrest again for your help. You have help me more then you think. I was able to to shoot my cast + PC without leading and very little streaking from PC in the barrel.

"Un-throated bbl's do extremely well with aligning rn/2r bullets in them. But they are touchy with tc designs. Perhaps you should measure 20 or 30 of your loaded rounds and see how consistent the oal's are. It's not uncommon to see a =/- .005" difference in oals."

is very true. I am able to load them between 1.05 to 1.04 with very good results as you can see with .356 on both pistols.
I could stay with .358 but i would need to get my barrel chamber throated. Maybe when i have more money and without drooling over another gun, i would get the shield throated...i always want another gun. I am planning to shoot my current load and consider it as Long term test" and may improve it in the future.
I was considering round nose design Lee 356-124-2R, but i didnt see many who reported a good accuracy as the 356-120-TC design.
I wonder how much it costs to throat the barrel in the Shield? vs buying a new Lee mold.

[Phlier]

Thank you forrest again for your help. You have help me more then you think. I was able to to shoot my cast + PC without leading and very little streaking from PC in the barrel.

"Un-throated bbl's do extremely well with aligning rn/2r bullets in them. But they are touchy with tc designs. Perhaps you should measure 20 or 30 of your loaded rounds and see how consistent the oal's are. It's not uncommon to see a =/- .005" difference in oals."

is very true. I am able to load them between 1.05 to 1.04 with very good results as you can see with .356 on both pistols.
I could stay with .358 but i would need to get my barrel chamber throated. Maybe when i have more money and without drooling over another gun, i would get the shield throated...i always want another gun. I am planning to shoot my current load and consider it as Long term test" and may improve it in the future.
I was considering round nose design Lee 356-124-2R, but i didnt see many who reported a good accuracy as the 356-120-TC design.
I wonder how much it costs to throat the barrel in the Shield? vs buying a new Lee mold.

I have shot over 10,000 rounds of the Lee 356-124-2R, and have been extremely pleased with it, including its accuracy. There are a lot of threads about people having trouble with this boolit, so I guess I got lucky. I'm able to load it to 1.130 OAL @.357 and it functions perfectly through my S&W M&P C.O.R.E 9L and my son's CZ 75 P-01