Lyman 314299 (.312-.313) what's up

[1trkmind]

I just got a new lyman 314299 mold for my #1 mk-3 brit. I was hoping for great mold that would put out .314 maybe .315 boolits. Instead I get .312-.313 with the occasional .314 in one spot. Is anyone else having this problem and trying to cure it? First lyman I've had and am disappointed.I am thinking of trying to hone it out, never done it before but the mold is useless the way it is.

[Dan Cash]

I have heard that new Lyman moulds leave a good bit to be desired, kind of like an iron Lee project mould at a custom mould price. I, personally, would try to get a refund. Failing that, the ream, honing trick might work and you have nothing to loose. If you end up having to replace this mould, Accurate, NEI and NOE among others can fix you up quickly with a mould that drops to spec and the price is very competitive.

An alternative solution would be to keep the mould as is and get a push through sizer to size the bulllet to .308-.310 or so depending on your bore and paper patch the result. Patching is not hard to do and very effective in the results department.

[spfd1903]

The Lyman 314299 is relegated to sizing the .312+ boolits to .311 and .310 for .30 caliber rifles. The NOE 314299 is used for producing .314 boolits.

[Calamity Jake]

If your going to shoot cast in a brit. you might want to go with 316299

[longbow]

Larry Gibson will tell you that if you use Lyman #2 Alloy the mould will cast to spec (I am assuming here you did not use Lyman #2 alloy). I can't argue with that but since I usually cast with straight wheelweights and get 0.312"/0.313" mine was useless too.

I lapped mine out and it worked much better but then bought an NOE 316299 which casts to 0.316" with wheelweights! What a concept! I size them to 0.315".

I can't figure out Lyman's logic myself. If the moulds would cast a thou or two large with wheelweights the boolits can be sized down so are suitable for more variations in bore size which is important especially when casting for milsurps. And for those that cast with Lyman #2 alloy then they will be one thou+ larger... so again can be sized down to suit. It seems to make sense to me!

Thankfully we have mould makers like Mihec, NOE and Accurate that will make moulds that cast to spec with wheelweights or at least not Lyman #2 alloy. Nothing wrong with Lyman #2 alloy but I think many (most) here use wheelweights or mixes of wheelweights and lead.

Get yourself an NOE 314299 if you want 0.314" boolits from wheelweight alloy or probably better an MOE 316299 then size it to what suits from 0.312" on up. My Lee Enfields all like a boolit of 0.315" which is tough to get from a Lyman mould that will maybe cast 0.314" with Lyman #2 alloy.

Longbow

[1trkmind]

It is advertised as being for the 303 caliber on amazon. False advertisement!

[1trkmind]

Yes I am using wheelweights and probably needed .315 or .316 to start with. I will try for a refund from amazon and check on the NOE 316.

[obssd1958]

I know that everyone hears this all the time, but here goes - have you slugged your barrel?
There are TWO important dimensions that you can find by doing this. First is the one everyone is always concerned with - the major diameter, or the bottom of the grooves. And the second is the distance across the top of the lands, or the bore. Boolits are cast and sized to fit the major diameter plus .001 or so. But it's also important to know what the true bore size is, or there's the chance that the boolits you produce won't chamber because the NOSE is too big. Been there and done that!
I bring this up because another couple of options are:
Powder coat - this adds 1 or 2 thousandths to the entire boolit in most cases
Beagle the mould - this can also add 1 to several thousandths to the entire boolit
Both processes increase the size of the whole boolit and can make the nose too large - and it doesn't normally get sized when run through a standard sizing die. But if your bore will handle the increase in size of the nose, it's all good!

Just some food for thought.

[Hardcast416taylor]

A few years back I purchased a new #314299 mold from Lyman. While cleaning it I noticed that both cavities holes under the sprue plate were oval shaped! I called Lyman and read them the riot act about this mold. They told me to try casting with it and if it did indeed throw oval shaped boolets to send samples and the mold back. About a month later I got my mold back. The holes had been re-bored and were perfect circles this time and they now dropped .3155" every time.Robert

[1trkmind]

Yes, I have slugged the bore, bore is .303 and groove is .315-.316(5 groove). Powder coating? hadn't thought about it,is it easy or tough? Beagleing to me is a pain so only do that if I have to. I have thought of lapping, but have not done that before. Anyone that has I would like to hear from. Also I will be checking the roundness under the sprue plate, because I am getting close to .314 at the parting line and .312-.313 in the other direction.

[runfiverun]

lapping is pretty easy.
your other dimension and the more important one is the nose.
a 314299 should make 314 on the body and 304 on the nose.
my older one barely makes those dimensions.

but why should you have to lap a new mold.
[yes I have bought a lyman mold and a jar of lapping compound on the same day]
send it back to them and tell them to keep it and get the 316299 mold from NOE it will make 316+
sizing down to 315-316 for your rifle is a lot easier than trying to become a mold finisher Q/C department for lyman.

[Outpost75]

Much easier to order a mold from NOE the size you need which casts round bullets to begin with. Lyman molds have always had "issues" for me and I don't own any, anymore...

[spfd1903]

Never got. .314 from a Lyman 314299 WITH Lyman #2 alloy. Sorry.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, your Lyman mould is cut for #2 alloy. I suggest you add 2% tin to your WW alloy. That most often will bring the cast bullets from a new Lyman mould up to or slightly above nominal diameter.

Larry Gibson

[6.5 mike]

+1 for NOE. I just got a 316299 & it drops as advertised both nose & body. Did find I could take the nose down with my RCBS 30 cal collet in my boolit puller, 0.305 to 0.302. Now it will work for all my problem kids,.lol.

[1trkmind]

What is the best source for tin, Larry? If I can get it I will try to cast a few more and see, but the boolits do seem to be .314 at the parting line and smaller at 90 degree around the radius.

[krallstar]

If your going to shoot cast in a brit. you might want to go with 316299 This one. Great mold for the enfield.

[krallstar]

Also the freebore after the neck on mine is .316. Makes a nice tight seal.
I use indoor range lead. Comes out .316 to .317 NOE 316

[Larry Gibson]

What is the best source for tin, Larry? If I can get it I will try to cast a few more and see, but the boolits do seem to be .314 at the parting line and smaller at 90 degree around the radius.

Apologies for the late response. You should be able to get tin locally at a welding/plumbers supply store. They'll have it as solder. Usually in bars of 40/60 or 50/50 (tin/lead). You can also buy pure tin from venders here or, if you know what to look for, pewter can be found in 2nd hand stores. Pewter will contain a large % of tin.

Adding 2% tin only takes 3.2 ounces of tin for 10 lbs of alloy. It's not rocket science either where an exact amount is required. A 1 lb bar of 50/50 solder will have 8 ounces of tin, enough for 25 lbs of lead.

Larry Gibson

[Hamish]

send it back to them and tell them to keep it and get the 316299 mold from noe it will make 316+
sizing down to 315-316 for your rifle is a lot easier than trying to become a mold finisher q/c department for lyman.

that!

[gwpercle]

I had a nice BSA made No. 4 MKI dated 1942 , obtained in the 1960's , decided to leave it in military guise and shoot with cast. After hearing all the oversize bore horror stories I just knew I would need that 316299 mould. Got around to slugging it , slugged it and measured it 5 different times, three different ways , because I didn't believe what numbers I kept getting ....to my amazement that BSA barrel is .311. The inside bore measured .303 . The lands measured .004 deep.
.303+.004+.004= .311.... therefore a .312 boolit shoots just fine .
I picked up a 2 cavity Lee C312-185-1R that casts .3125, and solved my 303 British boolit problem
Slug your barrel, it may not be what you think ... I later found out that BSA manufactured rifles usually had better tolerances . Mine was right on spec.
Gary

[oldblinddog]

Apologies for the late response. You should be able to get tin locally at a welding/plumbers supply store. They'll have it as solder. Usually in bars of 40/60 or 50/50 (tin/lead). You can also buy pure tin from venders here or, if you know what to look for, pewter can be found in 2nd hand stores. Pewter will contain a large % of tin.

Adding 2% tin only takes 3.2 ounces of tin for 10 lbs of alloy. It's not rocket science either where an exact amount is required. A 1 lb bar of 50/50 solder will have 8 ounces of tin, enough for 25 lbs of lead.

Larry Gibson

No, this! ^^^^

Solder can be had from most any hardware store also. Adjusting your alloy to drop the bullet diameter you want is part of casting. Lyman molds have been made for number 2 alloy for somewhere around 100 years and various formulas for creating it are in the Lyman manuals. It isn't right to badmouth a company for doing what they say they do.

[longbow]

I'll agree that it isn't right to badmouth Lyman for saying that their moulds will cast to spec with #2 alloy as long as they do.

However, it would be nice if they made moulds to suit the guns they say they are for and many milsurps seem to run oversize bores. What would it hurt to have the 314299 cast a thou or two oversize with common alloys... or even with #2 alloy so the boolits could be sized down to suit many Lee Enfields, 7.62 x 54's or other milsurps that have fat bores? In fact what would it hurt to have all boolit moulds cast a thou or two large with wheelweights so maybe two to three thou large with #2 alloy? You can size them down but you can't add to diameter unless you paper patch or powder coat!

I can't see why they say they have a boolit to suit .303 British when it is evident that many if not most Lee Enfields have barrels with groove diameter at or larger than 0.314". I guess those moulds must be intended for the sporting rifles in .303 not the milsurps?

Having said that, I have several Lyman round ball moulds for my shotguns and all cast at least a thou or two large using wheelweights! I also have an old (1980's vintage) Lyman 311041 mould that casts at 0.310" with wheelweights so it must be way out of spec, but it suits my needs.

I know, Lyman is a big box outfit trying to supply moulds to the masses and most modern guns run pretty much to spec but again, most people size so having a mould cast a couple thou large is not a detriment and allows the shooter to size to suit his gun's needs.

My opinion anyway.

Thankfully we have NOE, Mihec and Accurate who make moulds to suit milsurps, guns with fat bores and for casting with alloys other than #2 alloy.

Longbow

[oldblinddog]

I imagine that Lyman (rightly) assumes that the rifles that need a 316299 can be covered by NOE, et al, and that their business model would not allow a profit from the few molds they would sell. They also (rightly) assume that you have slugged your bore prior to purchasing a mold and therefore whatever mold you buy is correct for your​ rifle.

[longbow]

I suspect that things at Ideal/Lyman have changed over the years.

From Ideal Handbook #38 page 75 reloading data for .303 British and Canadian Ross:

"#311299 Standard bullet for .303 British and Ross rifles" (yes that is 311299 not 314299!)

"Note: Use same cast bullets as .30-40 Krag but size, .313 diameter"

and same page for 7.7 M/M Jap (.31 cal.)

"Ideal Bullets:

Use same cast bullets as .300 magnum and also #311413. Size bullets to .314 or .315 or shoot as cast."

These instructions would be very difficult to follow for bullet moulds that cast to 0.311".

And from Lyman #44 page 76 for 7.65 Argentine:

"Cast bullet #311466 (155 grs.) worked well in our testing.This bullet is not recommended, however, for rifles which have groove diameters larger than .311" as it casts rather small (.312"). Where sizing diameters exceed .311" use #311284 (214 gr.)"

So their #311466 casts small at 0.312"?

Comments for .303 British 7.7 Jap are similar and for all three which are .31 cal. the cast bullets recommended are "311" series and the only one stated not suitable if groove diameter is over 0.311" is the #311284. In Lyman's defense they do recognize that these calibers tend to have barrels with large groove diameters and that accuracy may not be good.

Again, practice at Lyman seems to have changed some over the years as the above implies that Ideal/Lyman moulds used to cast larger than the mould spec.

Having said that I got a bit of an education today while reading through the section "Accuracy With Cast Bullets". Lyman states that their H&I sizing dies do not shear metal off the bullets, they swage the bullets larger into perfectly cylindrical bullets (page 256 Lyman #44). And they offer these dies in a wide variety of diameters including 0.312", 0.313", 0.314", 0.315", 0.316" & 0.318" which would take care of any typical .303, 7.65 or 7.7 barrel along with many oversize .30's like 7.62 Russian.

I am not sure if they changed cavity diameters to suit and whether the same mould numbers as Ideal are included here. If so then Ideal and early Lyman moulds must have cast larger than those in use when Lyman #44 was written.

Also, when I size my larger boolits down I do not see any shearing (no alloy removal). The action is swaging a larger boolit to slightly smaller diameter.

In any case, not arguing about Lyman moulds or quality or if they cast to "spec" using #2 alloy, just pointing out that there seems to be some inconsistencies in what they produce or have produced over the years.

The Lyman moulds I have currently are few and mostly round ball and I like them very much. I have a soft spot for the Lyman iron moulds but I do wish they would up diameters a bit. I think it is much more common to size down than to swage up.

Longbow

[1trkmind]

I changed my mind about the refund and tried lapping it out. I used lapping compound from advanced, not sure of the grit size but it didn't seem to do much except at the part line. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. It would be nice if someone could explain the process maybe with pictures. I tried adding 3% pewter, it didn't add anything to the diameter.I shot a few with 7 grains of red dot and did quite well at 30 yards(5 in about a 50 cent piece dia.) So, not too bad.

[longbow]

Lapping isn't particularly hard but it can be tricky.

I usually cast a half dozen or so lapping slugs then drill them a for a large wood screw with the head cut off.

I coat the lapping slug with lapping compound then put it in the mould with wood screw installed in the slug then turn by hand to get the grit into the lead and gradually get the mould closed. The mould will have to be opened and block faces clean regularly or lapping compound will keep the blocks from closing. Once that first lapping slug has impregnated and worn in and the mould blocks are closed I use an electric drill chucked onto the screw shank to turn the lapping slug slowly. Once it frees up a bit reload with lapping compound and change cavities. Work back and forth and when the lapping slug gets loose, use a new lapping slug and start over.

It is very important to keep opening the mould blocks and clean the faces because lapping compound will work its way between the blocks and force the blocks apart resulting in an oval mould that is wider at the seam.

That's my method in a nutshell... for iron moulds. For aluminum I do all the turning by hand and use the cast through a nut method for lapping slugs then turn the lapping slug with a wrench by hand. It is too easy to remove too much metal with an electric drill as aluminum is so soft.

Here is a ink for lapping in the CastPics info:

http://castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/MoldLapping1.pdf

This is the cast through a nut method.

and a good write up by saxguy:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?257858-Expanding-a-boolit-mould-the-quot-WEET-quot-method-(In-parts)

To remove a thou or two is not difficult but it can be time consuming to do it right.

I hope that helps.

Longbow

[1trkmind]

Thank you longbow, will check it out.

[Good Cheer]

Used to you could order from Lyman whatever you wanted.
But the best part was when they sold off their out of tolerance manufacturing mistakes for next to nuttin' (just as good as the correct ones) that had the cherry depths different from what the catalog showed.