Accuracy problems

[1trkmind]

I am very new to paper patching and having lots of problems with accuracy and leading. I am using a 303brit #1mk3 with a .303 bore and .316 groves. The boolit is a lee-C309-180-R it has a .305 nose and .310 bands and cast from wheel weights. I use #9 onion skin paper and have tried 2,3 and 4 wraps from .314 to .319 and wrapped from the bands to the tip with no luck at all, it shoots about a 6ft. spread at about 30 yards.I twist the tails and clip,set them in a unsized case and let the bolt seat them.I have tried from 7 to 13 grains of red dot with no luck and 26 to 36 grains of IMR 4064. Does anyone have any suggestions that might help?

[OverMax]

a 6ft. spread at about 30 yards.
problems with accuracy and leading

Wow!! That's awful. Maybe try a light neck re-sizing to tighten the boolits neck tension. As read apparently your powder charge isn't given enough time to get a good burn going before the boolit leaves the cartridge case.
I would like to welcome you to this site.

[ShooterAZ]

A much slower powder would be the first thing I would try.

[1trkmind]

Do you think the 4064 is still too fast? Also I have tried seating deeper, to the crimp grove and slightly less with lite crimp and without. Same results.

[ShooterAZ]

I started paper patching with IMR4064 and had "OK" results. I then switched to Varget and things got a little better. Next I tried W760, (H414) and things really started to come together. If you have any IMR4831 or 4350 you might try those as well. You also may want to look at a little fatter boolit (.311-312) to patch up to where you need to be.

[1trkmind]

I was under the impression slug needed to be .001-.002 over bore. I was thinking the nose on mine was ok(.305) but the bands are too thick(.310) not sure but I am getting good patch disintegration maybe too good.

[1trkmind]

Shooter, right now all I have is 4064 and red dot,but if you were getting fair results with 4064 could you give me your recipe? At least I might get something on the target and a starting place.

[ShooterAZ]

Your final size needs to be .001/.003 over groove. You can try a thicker paper too.

[dverna]

6 ft patterns at 30 yards are not caused by less than optimum bullets or powder choice

Will the gun group with military or commercial loads?

Is everything tight? I had a loose front sight one time. But check the action screws as well.

Don Verna

[1trkmind]

Yes gun does quite well even with the .309 mold,but did have a little problem with the front sight. I'm thinking the patch is not making it through the bore before shredding.

[dverna]

That would explain the leading

[1trkmind]

Does anyone else use the lee c309-180 mold for a 303? If so how do you go about patching it?

[grullaguy]

Does anyone else use the lee c309-180 mold for a 303? If so how do you go about patching it?

It is one of my favourites in the 303. For my No 1 Mk 3 and Ruger #1, I size the bullets down with a custom .304" push through die that Buckshot made for me. I then do 2 wet wraps with green bar printer paper. Once dry, I clip the tails and apply JPW evenly with my finger and run the patched bullets a final time through a .314" sizing die. They are then hand pressed into unsized cases from the rifle they were fired in. IMR 4350 is one of my favourite powders, though I do use others.

[1trkmind]

I am thinking that the sizing to .304 is what I'm needing. Also my bore doesn't look bad but feels a little rough when I push a patch through it, could be causing problems. The bore is .316 so should I patch to that? The throat is .317 or so maybe patch to that and lube well to get over the roughness.

[grullaguy]

Yes, a fat bullet to fit your throat should be the way to go. You don't want gasses stripping your paper before your bullet reaches the rifling.

[1trkmind]

Do you think the sizing down to .304 is important. My c309-180 is .305 above the driving bands and .310 at the bands. My bore is .303.

[kungfustyle]

Have you tried to clean the bore with JB paste to smooth it out? http://www.frfrogspad.com/homemade.htm

Bore Paste
An excellent bore polishing paste that works as well as JB's can be made from equal parts of BonAmi™, paste wax (like Johnson & Johnson or Butchers), and light oil. The BonAmi is the "doesn't scratch" product. Regular abrasive cleansers may be too harsh for use in a bore.
put some one a patch and run it through the bore work it in and then run solvent patches down the bbl. After a few reps of this you should feel it smooth out.

[ShooterAZ]

Do you think the sizing down to .304 is important. My c309-180 is .305 above the driving bands and .310 at the bands. My bore is .304.

This will be dependent on your patch thickness. In my 30-06, I size a boolit to .308, and patch with a .0025 double wrapped. Final size to .311.

[1trkmind]

What boolit are you using to size to .308? Is it a two diameter(nose & bands)boolit like my .309? What is your bore and groove on the 30-06 and how far up the nose do you wrap? Sorry for so many questions just trying to figure what I'm doing wrong. Also I think polishing my bore could only help, maybe the key since I've tried most everything else.

[grullaguy]

Do you think the sizing down to .304 is important. My c309-180 is .305 above the driving bands and .310 at the bands. My bore is .304.

By accident, I recently patched some bullets that I missed sizing down to .304" first. When I get some fired cases from my Ruger, I will shoot some of each bullet and to see how groups compare. I think that with a .316" groove to groove measurement, sizing down the .308" bullets should not be as critical for your rifle as it would be for my rifles which measure .314".

Are your patches as close to identical as possible? Slight variances as to how the paper is applied, can show as big differences on the target. Just brain storming here....

[ShooterAZ]

I have been using the 311047 from NOE. http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?products_id=81. I wrap up around the ogive so there is no lead contacting the bore. At work now..so I don't have my notes on bore & groove(too many rifles to memorize all of them!). I have been paper patching for a short time, but my experience has taught me to size patch and size so the bullet is a slip fit (with resistance) into a fired and unsized case. A good fit in the throat is important though. My rifle (Rem 700) seems to really like this boolit design, patched or not.

The advice to use JB bore to smooth smooth the barrel is good. I used a patch wrapped around a bore brush with Hoppes/JB on it to do this on my Mosin Nagant. After a while though, just shooting paper patched boolits will accomplish the same thing. I just ordered a .303 PP design from Accurate http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=30-190P-D.png, and will start out with patching it with .004 copy paper and size to .310- .311 as needed. Still toying with different lubes as well. Paper patching is tedious but fun when you can finally get things to come together.

[1trkmind]

The wrapping is the same except for the number of wraps and the width of the strips if that makes sense. Because I've been wrapping to .313-316-.319 and different lengths up the nose just to try to hit on the 2-1/2 ft. target at 30yrds. None are working.

[wmitty]

It is not clear to me as to whether you are sizing the Lee boolit down to .304" or so for its full length. If you are trying to wrap the unsized boolit with a patch and then shooting it; I believe you will have problems. If I'm misunderstanding, and you are sizing the boolit to .304/.305 over its full length, and then patching up to groove dia. or slightly over, you should be having much better results. Do you have a .304" push thru die?

[1trkmind]

I am not sizing the slug at all before wrapping, and am thinking that may be my problem

[n.h.schmidt]

You have a Enfield with fuzzy bore syndrome. If like mine you would look down the bore after pushing that first patch and see fuzz in the barrel. Its from jacket material being stripped off by the cordite scorched barrel. This condition as is will be fatal to paper patching. The barrel can be smoothed up as some have suggested. This will result in good results. If when you see a white cloud upon fireing, the paper is being destroyed on its trip down the barrel. You should see paper strips blast out of the barrel when you have it right. Think confetti . Surprisingly you may get reasonable shooting out of regular cast boolits right away. Shoot a few regular cast boolits before trying the PP slugs at the same session . I did for mine and the regular boolits left the bore in a condition that would allow the PP to work.
n.h.schmidt

[wmitty]

303guy has mentioned using Enfields with what sounded like absolutely ruined bores and having success with pp boolits in those rifles - you might want to look at some of his posts...

I know there are some men here having success patching unsized boolits and shooting them - docone31 comes to mind. You might check some of his postings.

[1trkmind]

You are probably right n.h. My bore looks great except for being frosty and a little dark in the grooves. It does snag a patch a little bit and I see the white cloud after the shot. It does shoot cast pretty well. I will try shooting cast and paper in the same session maybe it will help.

[yeahbub]

Have you considered a few lapping rounds? Just about ten or so will take the high points off troublesome "lunch-grabbers" in a rough bore and there are very few barrels that don't benefit from making the bore consistent for it's entire length. Being dark in the grooves is an indicator your barrel is a candidate for this. With cast and PP sized for the throat, they will surely be riding over the rough stuff. I generally start with US Products Crystolon 400, http://www.us-products.com/product-p/product61.htm. A 1 oz. sample jar will do a dozen barrels, so you don't need much. If you're feeling motivated you could move on to 600 or 800, but if you barrel shoots cast pretty well as is, just smoothing off the "lunch-grabbers" will be an improvement.

[Old Coot]

I am thinking that the sizing to .304 is what I'm needing. Also my bore doesn't look bad but feels a little rough when I push a patch through it, could be causing problems. The bore is .316 so should I patch to that? The throat is .317 or so maybe patch to that and lube well to get over the roughness.

I would patch to the throat. If the bullet doesn't fit there it won't go into the rifling straight.
Shoot 50 or so patched and un-lubed bullets and you will see that bore start to smooth out. Shooting lubed patched bullets will do it as well, but it takes a lot more.
Brodie