Firearm protection

[FabMan]

I have a question for gunsmiths and how they protect their firearms from theft. We have had burglaries commited by druggies feeding their habit. Some of these thefts involve stealing gun safes that were bolted to walls and floors. This is happening in quit, rural communities. Does anyone have special deterrents to avoid these creeps from taking your stuff?

[country gent]

Several things can and should be done to slow thieves and or stop them. One is a safe that has to be disassembled to fit thru doors, If they cant get the locked unit thru the doors it greatly deters them. Serial number on the safe made note of along with all pertanant info from manufacturer, Manufacturer notified of theft so if they contact them for combination its not given. Safe solidly bolted to floor and wall or walls if posible. Floor bolts should go thru floor and heavy plates. Ideally a piece of boiler plate the same or larger size than base of safe, the more they have to break the harder it is for them. A piece of 3/8"4"X4" boiler plate used to bolt the safe to the floor Under the floor means a 4' square of floor has to be broken or cut thru. Filling the gaps under the safe keeps pry bars from being inserted under the safe also. Lag screws seem good but are easy and quick to pull out of the wood. Serial numbers, descriptions, and pics of firearms should be recorded and stored in several places, your home, parents or family members home, saftey deposit box at bank. If stolen send this list serial numbers and descriptions to every pawn shop gun shop in the states surrounding this makes selling almost imposible to do. If possible postings at gun shows. You wont defeat the professionals but can slow them down to where its not worth it for them.The locals can be stopped.

[375RUGER]

You didn't mention if you are a home based business or what, so being a home based business here is what I do.

#1 An alarm system and lots of security cameras, make it obvious where you put them. Cameras are not a deterent to all thieves though.
#2 A mean dog or 2. My dog isn't mean but he's big enough to intimidate most people. I will get a decent guard dog some day.
#3 A black bear. This is my wish list, I wouldn't need #1, #2 or #4 if I had one.
#4 Fenced property. Close and lock the gates at all times. My gates are locked whether someone is home or not. If you only close the gates when you are gone, then everyone knows when you're gone.

[Iron Whittler]

I understand your dilemma. Having sold gun safes and seen a good number of safes on the market, the most common mistake made in the purchase is price, weight, thickness of metal and physical size. Understandably cost is a big factor. However a well built, thick wall, very HEAVY safe is not cheap. One must consider the value of the items stored inside the safe. At todays prices and demand, it does not take many firearms to well exceed the cost of a top end safe. Don't forget, it is a safe and jewelry, important papers, etc. will wind up inside as well. Next, a person should be very selective as to who knows you have a safe. If possible, keep safe concealed or covered to protect from roaming eyes. Having a monitored security system is a very good and inexpensive backup to the safe. A thief needs time to move a 1500-2500 lb. safe. The security system will limit the amount time thieves have to work and greatly improves the chance of them caught in the act. Thieves are lazy bunch that won't work, but will take what you have worked to acquire and think nothing of it. I hope this will be of help. Iron Whittler:Fire:

[Blackwater]

Nothing can ever be truly safe from theft. Real pros can steal almost anything. Even the Mona Lisa has been attempted! But for your average, ordinary thieves, who are by leaps and bounds the most numerous and active, Country Gent gives great advice. And when yoy say to yourself, "I'll put in in the safe and lock it later," ...... well, that's the way to lose stuff OUT of the safe. And ol' Murphy's Law predicts that if you forget to come back and do as you told yourself you'd do, that the VERY time that a thief will hit you! Don't ask me why it works like that. I don't know. It just DOES! Diligence and foresight are always the best policy. Things we don't think will happen .... just DO sometimes.

[merlin101]

Somewhere on this internet thingy I saw (possibly this site) a pepper spray bombs that can be hooked up to an alarm system or stand alone. Disguised as a smoke detector or sprinkler head they spue pepper spray and fill the room, would discourage all but the most determined.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Actually the Mona Lisa was stolen. An Italian who was working at the French museum simply put the painting under his coat and walked out the door. He thought it should be returned to Italy. If I remember correctly, it was missing for several years before being returned.

[M-Tecs]

An alarm system and a GOOD safe. If it don't weigh at least 1,000 pounds add lead to it.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Say...I'll chip in with about $0.02 worth of experience and ideas.

I used to patronize, and almost bought , a local gun shop in Calif. The owner lived in a house that was about 10 steps away from the shop. He did not have a proper burglar alarm, but instead had one of the older intercom systems. It was very handy because his wife could call him home for lunch, etc. A receiver/transmitter in each room of the shop, and a master control in his living room with a bank of flip switches. He'd sit in his recliner at night and, as he watched TV, would occasionally flip the switches one at a time and listen for unusual noises. One night he heard such a noise, and taking his sawed off Rem. Mod. 11 12 Ga. and a powerful flashlight he located two burglars sawing through the wood siding on the back of the shop building. One of the burglars advanced on him with a crowbar, so he shot him in the arm. After that they were quite willing to wait for the arrival of the Sheriff's Deputies. The Sheriff himself personally presented the owner with a new box of shells a couple of weeks later. That was around 1959 or 60 and things were different than now. In fact, eventually I purchased the shotgun as my home defense gun, but when I found one I liked better I purchased a new barrel for the Remington, reblued it, re-stocked it. Still have it. I guess I deleted the photo of the gun from my computer picture file, but if you look at the Products Review forum and search for one about a crushed Doskocil gun case it's pictured there.

Found it: Thread name is: From the bottom of the pile.

Eventually I did own my own gunsmithing business. It was in a rural area on 30 acres, and my house was also on the property with about a 3 minute walk to the shop. When I first opened for business guys I didn't know would come in and hang out for awhile, and you could tell that they were looking all about trying to determine what the security features were. "Casing the joint" if you like. I had no functioning burglar alarm system at all, but engaged in psychological warfare. If anyone remarked that they didn't see any tape on the windows I'll tell them that it was unnecessary as the motion detectors were turned on at night. Then I'd reach under the counter and show them a funky little burglar alarm item I had purchased from Sportsman's Guide. It was about the size and shape of a pound of butter standing on end, actually had a motion detector sensor on the top and a keypad on the front. Supposedly it could detect motion and then phone your house or the local law enforcement agency and deliver a message, like "Send help. The shop at 733 Elm St. is being burglarized"--whatever message you wanted to record on it. I never bothered to use it--never even tested it--still have it. So then I'd say, "but if somebody had the guts to try and burglarize my shop and came sneaking up at night and looked in the window they'd see the little red lights that are actually laser beams. If something breaks one of the beams then the alarm goes off over at the house and I come over with the shotgun. So, I feel pretty secure with the motion detectors and laser beam protection." The little red lights were actually there at night, but were night lights for kid's bedrooms that come on by themselves when the overhead lights are turned off.
Then I'd say, in a friendly and confidential manner, "But who'd be crazy enough to want to burglarize a gunsmithing shop like this one. Everything in here is here because it's broken and needs fixed. Sure not worth someone risking their life for. "These fellows apparently talked to their buddies, and I never did have a burglary attempt in 18 years at that location. I did have a gate at the top of my lane about 15 acres distant that was locked with a heavy chain and padlock at night or whenever we weren't home. It was rare that no one was at home.
185405

Another gun dealer friend who lived in a town about 28 miles distant from my shop had the most secure set up I've seen, which was a concrete block building inside of which in one corner was a concrete block vault. The holes in the blocks were stuffed with concrete and rebar. Now this is kind of hard to describe, but on either side of the door into the vault was a pillar made of more concrete blocks, and between the pillars and the sides of the doorway was a heavy channel iron frame. The door, which was a huge sheet of about 3/8" boiler plate, was on rollers inside this frame. When rolled closed the lock for the door on the right hand edge was behind the pillar as was the left hand edge. There was nothing to attack on the door at all, just a flat steel surface, and you could reach behind the pillar to unlock the padlock but couldn't much get at it otherwise. It was an Air Force surplus armory lock which sort of resembles a very tall and thick Master Padlock, many layers of laminated steel and which will supposedly withstand a direct close-up hit from a .30-06 bullet. At night he'd move all his guns into the vault and lock the door. There was a light bulb above the vault's door, and at night passing police cruisers (small town, rarely more than one) could look through the window and see the vault door. I used to kid him about his nuclear fallout shelter.

[FabMan]

Thanks for the good info. Most of us probably have collections that took years to acquire. The thought of some garbage taking what I worked hard for is unthinkable. I am going to order the pepper spray bomb and look at enclosing the safe with hardened walls. Please keep the ideas coming.

[Petrol & Powder]

The basic premise is you trade time for security. Given enough time any defensive fortification will fall to a prolonged siege if the defenders cannot be relieved. Now, a gun safe isn't a fort but the concept holds true. You're just using physical security to buy time.

During most attacks you only need to buy a little time in order to prevail. Surprisingly gun stores located in more populous communities may have an advantage due to a larger police presence. A small rural community may have little or even no police presence during some hours and what few police officers they have can be diverted, often over great distances, by fake calls for service. If a thief can buy just a little time they may be successful. Alarms don't stop attacks, they simply notify someone that an attack is occurring. If there's no one available to respond to that alarm; the alarm is of little value.

Fortunately, most thieves aren't that sophisticated and will seek a less defended target when confronted with strong security. Defense in depth is a good strategy. Prevent vehicle access to the building (note that this may impair fire suppression efforts), prevent direct access to the building itself (locked gates), prevent access from non-conventional areas (roof, walls, etc.), prevent access to the safe itself and finally make the safe exceedingly difficult to remove forcing the thief to attack the safe in situ.

[Blackwater]

Der G., that was good thinking and a good plan, IMHO. I have a friend who's done very well for himself. He's an old mountain boy, and is built like Lee Van Cleef but in the face, looks just like Sean Connery. He's an old Viet Nam vet and went there with a good knowledge of how to fight. He came back, learned to do some hi-tec welding, and owned his own company that installed stainless and other pipes in high pressure, high corrosion facilities. All welds HAD to be "perfect," or they had to cut them off and reweld again. He learned quickly who was up to that standard of welding and who was not. And he kept the good ones, and was very generous and fair with them, as to pay and all else. They all had a mutual respect for each other, and became a "family" of sorts.

He had need of a young "gopher" and hired a young man of uncertain nature. One day, he pulled up to his "supply yard," which was a simple chain link fence with a padlock on the gate. The young helper knew the value of the SS pipe and other equipment stored within the simple fence. He looked up at my friend, and asked, "Mr. X, what's to keep somebody from coming here, cutting the lock, and making off with all this stuff?" Mr. X jerked his head around as if insulted, and gave him that stern look he did so marvelously, and simply said, "My reputation!" He continued that stare only he could achieve, looking into the young man's eyes for any sign he might be thinking about actually doing such a thing, and seeing he was totally cowed, went about his business as though nothing had happened. The kid got the message, and he NEVER had a theft from the little fenced in stash.

And THAT, my friends, when it CAN be achieved, counts for a lot more than most other "security devices." Anything man can make, he can bypass. But a man's reputation CAN, if it's sufficient, be one of the best that a man can possibly have. Few have this quality or demeanor or countenance .... or the reputation to back it all up .... but IF it's achievable, and convincing, it really can make a huge difference. I've heard a number of burglars say they'd NEVER try to burglarize so and so's home or whatever, because "That man'll KILL you!" And the look in their eyes showed how deeply they meant it.

Probably 80% of burglars are essentially cowards, who use the "sneak" to do their crimes. Most get a thrill out of it. Most have to go to the "Big House" to learn it's not worth what they get. I used to have a sort of semi-canned spiel that I'd give all my burglars whenever I could spare the time. It just basically wound up being a serious evaluation of the gains and losses that were inevitable. Since they'd already been caught at least once, it was impossible for them to NOT get the point. And it seemed to actually make some difference to som of them. One I met a few years back, and he tried to thank me for "all I'd done" for him, and introduced me to his wife and children. He'd actually gone straight, believe it or not! And he was SO proud of himself, despite the fact that by most standards, he didn't really have a whole lot. But what he had was HIS, and nobody else's, and that was enough for him, when compared to years in prison. I made VERY sure that he knew that I'd just passed along stuff I'd learned from many others, and that ALL credit was due to HIM, and NOT me! He understood, and it made him even prouder of himself. And I think it was warranted. Burglars are usually one of the most difficult offender types to "reason with." But it CAN be done, and some of them actually "get it." Horace was one of the better ones, and he's happy as a lark, and attends church with his wife and kids every Sunday, unless some sort of sickness prevents it.

BUT .... there's another type, and THOSE can be dangerous! Some go armed now. And the hatred on the streets in many areas drives them to commit heinous acts that are TOTALLY unnecessary. But they LIKE it! Those are the type you REALLY have to be concerned about, and there's no way of knowing which type is confronting you until it's over. This is the great problem of dealing with burglars. Most will leave and not stop running if you fire off a starter pistol that can't fire live ammo. Those fewer others consider it an invitation to a gun fight. Good luck with those. You may really NEED it!

Eternal vigilance and forethought is the price of Freedom. It's also necessary on a personal basis, if you want to keep what you've worked a lifetime to accrue. And nothing will ever change that, and for years now, the bad ones are getting more and more common. "Y'all be careful out there!" as they used to say on Hill St. Blues.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Thanks for the compliment.

A cross between Sean Connery and Lee Van Cleef? That would scare me. Wouldn't know what to expect--the long barreled SAA with rifle stock, or an oil slick!

I guess the most dangerous type of burglar is becoming the most common type--the drug addict. Stealing to get a fix, maybe desperate to get one or already high.

I'm glad that at least one reformed.

I remember the Sgt. on Hill Street Blues saying things like, "Hey, hey--Let's be careful out there," and "Remember..be careful out there," but didn't see the episode where he said "Y'all..." You probably saw the Southern version. ;)

[FabMan]

Yes, for some reason this area has a heroin problem. Coincides with a rising illegal immigration problem. Overdoses daily in this county. I just don't want to be a victim of these zombies.

[paul h]

IMO the two keys to keeping your guns safe is a safe location that won't allow a cable to be wrapped around the safe to yank it out with a vehicle, and a location that isn't easily found.

To me the ideal location is in the corner of a basement. Pour a concrete slab to keep the safe off the floor and protect it from flooding, and bolt the safe to the floor, and the concrete walls of the basement. Then build a false wall or some other means of hiding the safe.

Nothing is truly theft proof. The key is turning a several minute job into a several hour job.

[kingstrider]

Not sure how it works for a gunsmith but after my safe, my biggest piece of mind comes from a good insurance policy.

[smokeywolf]

If you have the money, one thing you can do is buy an actual safe, not a "residential security container". I think even the biggest of the Cannon safes (RSC) weigh in at under 1,000 lbs. Most actual class B safes that would be big enough to store a couple of dozen long guns will weigh in at around 1 ton. The bigger class B safes can go over 3,000 lbs.

You have to buy what you can afford. But, if you have say $12,000 worth of guns, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to try and protect them from theft and fire with $500 sheet metal box.

Fire scares me as much as theft. One of the things I read recently is that if you put your safe in the basement and the house burns down, the safe ends up buried under several feet of coals and/or water.

[FabMan]

I thought about getting a safe with 1/4" walls and a 1/2" door. However, a cutting torch will cut that as easily as 1/8". I'm sure some of the firearms would get trashed from the cutting too. The weight of a heavy safe would be a huge plus tho. I think trying to put up time barriers so it takes them longer to break in the safe is a good idea.

[paul h]

If you're house burns to the slab, it doesn't matter what level of fire protection your safe has, your guns will be damaged. That's what insurance is for.

To provide a level of fire protection that would protect your guns would most likely cost more than your guns are worth. So you have to figure out what level of protection you want and how much you're willing to invest.

[Love Life]

Not sure how it works for a gunsmith but after my safe, my biggest piece of mind comes from a good insurance policy.

Amen!

Below is food for thought for those who plan to build a house or shop in the future:

I'm currently in process of having my forever home built along with the shop of my dreams. The shop will have my guns in it, and my gun safe will actually be a vault that I can walk in with an Island in the middle to put guns on for examination and such, and the walls will have rifle racks, pistol racks, etc. I am modeling it off of an armory for nostalgia purposes. Making this a part of my shop actually came out cheaper than buying a safe that met my requirements. Odd how that works, but I'll take it, lol! Just an idea for those who may look at building a home in the future.

[smokeywolf]

If you're house burns to the slab, it doesn't matter what level of fire protection your safe has, your guns will be damaged. That's what insurance is for.

To provide a level of fire protection that would protect your guns would most likely cost more than your guns are worth. So you have to figure out what level of protection you want and how much you're willing to invest.

As you did not add a qualifier (probably, most likely) to that statement. I'm thinking you must have some personal experience with regard to this. Could you expand or offer a little more detail? If this happened to you or a friend, what brand and model of safe was it? RSC or class B safe?

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Love Life--you're definitely on the right track with the shop. When I built mine about 10 years ago I included a full bathroom, kitchenette, hard wired for telephone (4 jacks), computer (2 locations), a large sliding door on one end for entry and removal of heavy machinery--but no vault as I couldn't fit it into the design. The building is 24'x32' and is two story with another floor upstairs with a useable room of about 10'x32', less about 5' of stairwell access. It has a barn-type roof, so there is storage on the 2nd floor on either side of the 10' wide room. I'm anticipating moving in a year or so, and will be buying an existing place with and existing shop, so will anticipate some remodeling. A couple more features: motion activated outside security lights on the two sides not visible from the house, and intercom to the house, and a telephone service not available everywhere, but here it is called "Ring back". You dial your own phone number and when you get a busy signal you hang up. Then, in about 3 seconds your phone will ring. You pick up the receiver and are connected to your house and whomever picked up the phone when it rang on that end.

I think the important things to remember about safes are that they fall into two basic types: security and fire. The fire safes are primarily meant to protect their contents from the heat of fires, and all are rated as to the temperature that the interior will withstand and for how long. Although the door may appear very sturdy and burglar resistant, the sides and rear are less so as they usually involve two layers of steel with fire clay in between. As has been pointed out in several previous posts, it's a really good idea to bolt them to the wall and floor to keep them from being turned over and attacked with cold chisels, pry bars, and torch on the sides and/or back. It's far more common for a fire safe to be entered at the location than to be hauled away. All gun safes that I have seen, regardless of appearance and claims, are actually fire safes.

The true Security-type safe, as a financial institution might store funds in or a jewelry company might store diamonds in, is super, super heavy as it is thick solid steel all the way around and very difficult to move. They require a very solid (reinforced concrete?) footing and are not the kind of thing you're likely to be able to install on a 2nd floor, or even in a basement after the building is constructed unless provision to do so was included in the design like a freight elevator. Very often when a business that has a true Security safe moves or goes out of business the safe remains behind. They can be defeated and opened, but it requires a long session with a cutting torch or explosives, and is more of a thing of novels and movies than something that happens often.

Having once been in the security industry for a few years I can make the recommendation that the gun safes offered on the market today, the better ones, are certainly better than nothing; and if properly installed will give the average burglar pause to consider whether or not he has the time to work on it without being caught. Most will take the easily available and saleable items, be in and out in 10-30 minutes. What is really needed in combination with such a safe is a good burglar alarm. Whether connected into a monitoring service or not, the sound of an alarm going off will hasten the departure of the intruder and possibly alert neighbors to the fact that something is occurring--especially if they've been previously briefed that the alarm exists (not necessarily what it protects) and to call 911 if they hear it sounding. That's best, of course, for those who have neighbors. If you're very rural or have untrustworthy neighbors, then it's best not to stray too far from home too long. Some of the major nationwide alarm companies have periodic specials like $90 for installation and $30 per month equipment rental and monitoring, where available, and that's pretty good insurance for a collection worth many thousands of dollars.

[Blackwater]

Thanks for the compliment.

A cross between Sean Connery and Lee Van Cleef? That would scare me. Wouldn't know what to expect--the long barreled SAA with rifle stock, or an oil slick!

I guess the most dangerous type of burglar is becoming the most common type--the drug addict. Stealing to get a fix, maybe desperate to get one or already high.

I'm glad that at least one reformed.

I remember the Sgt. on Hill Street Blues saying things like, "Hey, hey--Let's be careful out there," and "Remember..be careful out there," but didn't see the episode where he said "Y'all..." You probably saw the Southern version. ;)

:mrgreen: I guess ya' got me pegged purdy good thar! And his personality is kind'a a cross between Lee and Sean, too. Very good man, and I'm glad to call him a friend. Not many like him. Never have been. But it's useful to know how he does it, at least.

[paul h]

As you did not add a qualifier (probably, most likely) to that statement. I'm thinking you must have some personal experience with regard to this. Could you expand or offer a little more detail? If this happened to you or a friend, what brand and model of safe was it? RSC or class B safe?

First an understanding of fire ratings:

U.L. Label/Class 350°F-one hour and Class 350°F-two hour. The safe will maintain an interior temperature less than 350°F when exposed to fire for a period of one hour at 1700°F or for a period of two hours at 1850°F.

When a house burns to the slab, you're going to have the safe heated by the fire itself for some time, and then you'll have the safe surrounded by hot debri for and extended period of time, likely a few hours. The fire fighters aren't going to rush in to clear the debri away from your safe, neither will they let you at it.

Don't know about you, but I'd expect most stocks and optics to be damaged after being exposed to 350°F, so even if the safe performs as designed, it's not likely to protect the contents from damage. If you want to test this, crank your oven up to 350F and put a handgun or rifle in it for a few hours and report back.

A fireproof safe does not mean there will be no damage to the contents in a fire, all it means is that the safe was designed and tested to a given set of criteria. The safe can be fire rated and the contents can still be damaged.

Will some fire proof safes protect some guns in some fires, yes. Should you blindly believe firearms in a fire proof safe will be protected from all fires, no.

[garym1a2]

Keep tools that can break a safe locked up or hidden. A friend had his safe broke open and his guns stolen. Someone knew he was out of town for the weekend, broke into his house, got his tools and cut open the safe. Angle grinders and cutoff wheels can cut the safe open if he has the time.

[smokeywolf]

paul h, you've obviously done your due diligence on this. I was not questioning your knowledge, but looking to further "pick your brain".

Completely agree with you that finishes and optics won't survive the 350 degree temp quoted in the ratings. This is one of the reasons that I take a safe manufacturer's fire ratings and cut their time by 50%, which I believe will almost certainly be a more realistic expectation.

I spent quite a bit of time at "gunsafereviewsguy.com/articles/myths-about-gun-safe-fire-ratings/" while studying gun safes. He offers very comprehensive and seemingly unbiased study of gun safes.

[shoot-n-lead]

Keep tools that can break a safe locked up or hidden. A friend had his safe broke open and his guns stolen. Someone knew he was out of town for the weekend, broke into his house, got his tools and cut open the safe. Angle grinders and cutoff wheels can cut the safe open if he has the time.

Do you keep those tools locked up in a safe, also?

Otherwise, they will just break into what you have them locked up in, take them out and use them to open your safe.

There is no way to cover all situations.

[shoot-n-lead]

A friend of mine is a reserve fireman of about 10yrs, we were discussing fireproof gun safes...he told me that he has never seen a common commercial fireproof gun safe that would protect the contents if the house had burned completely. He said the guns were always ruined.

[smokeywolf]

Does anybody here have a fire sprinkler system in their house? Seems like that might be the most effective measure that could be taken to guard against loss by fire.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The cost and installation difficulties of a safe to the standard people use for jewellery and large sums of money escalate drastically with size, and will be horrendous for one which will accommodate a lot of long guns. There is a lot to be said for a small and really secure one, possibly concreted into a wall, in which bolts and breechblocks are kept. A notice on the big safe saying that is the case might be a deterrent. A thief very likely won't take the risk of wrenching out and trucking away the big safe before he has found and opened the small one, which is impossible if there isn't one. Who would you be lying to? Somebody you owe the truth?

Some of the most effective alarm systems don't alarm anybody outside the room. In these days of wireless technology, if a simple pressure-release switch or pad makes a single LED start flashing, he doesn't know what it is doing somewhere else. On top of mine I used to keep a loosely covered tray of a mixture of old oil and stamp-pad ink. If your floor covering will stand it, a good dose of that stuff may be enough to send an imaginative thief looking for a change of clothing and an alibi.

[garym1a2]

I dont even have a safe yet. I just keep my guns in three locations. My brother keeps his guns in a RSC and his tools in a locked job box. I brought two job boxes to store mine in as the house floor will not support a heavy safe. Concerning fire protection their are ways to improve it. You could make a closet around the safe made on concrete, insulation, sheet rock, tile the inside and outside of the safe with ceramic tile will make it harder to cut open. Store extra lead in it to make it heavy.
Don't have powder and things that burn hot in your gun room.



Do you keep those tools locked up in a safe, also?

Otherwise, they will just break into what you have them locked up in, take them out and use them to open your safe.

There is no way to cover all situations.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If you have a fairly thin steel cabinet, vertical tubes filled with hardened steel rollers or ball bearings in the angle near the locks will resist a saw, or even to some extent an abrasive disc cutter.

[paul h]

Does anybody here have a fire sprinkler system in their house? Seems like that might be the most effective measure that could be taken to guard against loss by fire.

I've worked in the fire protection industry for ~20 years. There are a few things I've learned in that time.

1) Codes and standards are written to provide a minimum level of protection.
2) Meeting codes and standards does not guarantee you will be protected against all possible hazards.
3) The codes are written in blood, i.e. they are reactive to when someone was killed and retroactively address those minimum levels of protection.
4) There is a world of difference between life safety, and asset protection. Most codes and standards are addressed to provide life safety, not asset protection. Typically meeting life safety requirements is much less expensive than asset protection.

Hence when looking at fire ratings for residential buildings, fire detection and sprinkler systems, they are generally designed to aid in providing sufficient protection for the occupants of the building to exit the structure. They are not designed to protect the structure or the contents of the structure.

My personal thought is whether or not your safe is fireproof, mostly likely your firearms will be damaged in a house fire. Hence make sure you have sufficient insurance for the guns and don't sweat whether or not your safe is fireproof. If I have a house fire, my only goal and concern is that my family is able to safely exit the house. If it burns to the slab, so be it. We almost lost our house to a wild fire this summer, it puts what I value in perspective.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/3/4/4/344100033/3931050322_5FCCDBC01690E74600D99E9620B8FF35.jpg

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/3/4/4/344100033/3821050322_9BB26E5699D67C62CAC9F275A1E3DBAE.jpg

I do believe a sprinkler system does provide additional life safety benefits and would recommend investigating how much it would cost to install one. I haven't installed one because our house is on a private well and I would expect to loose power to my well in the event of a fire and hence it would be of minimum benefit in many fire scenarios, also quite expensive given the size of my house. I am considering installing a sprinkler in my utility room as it contains my hot water heater and furnace and is located in my basement. Hence a higher risk of fire, and a much longer response for me to determine there is a fire in the location and to respond to it.

[JWT]

Fire scares me as much as theft. One of the things I read recently is that if you put your safe in the basement and the house burns down, the safe ends up buried under several feet of coals and/or water.

Guy at work had a fire that started in his basement right by his safe(s) due to a battery charger. The structure of the house was saved so no pit of coals, but the smoke/vapor damaged his guns. His insurance policy paid to have all of the required repairs and refinishing done.

[smokeywolf]

Guy at work had a fire that started in his basement right by his safe(s) due to a battery charger. The structure of the house was saved so no pit of coals, but the smoke/vapor damaged his guns. His insurance policy paid to have all of the required repairs and refinishing done.

The insurance company cannot restore the value of an antique rifle in completely original condition. As soon as a restoration is done, it's no longer in "original condition" and its value is greatly reduced.

[JWT]

The insurance company cannot restore the value of an antique rifle in completely original condition. As soon as a restoration is done, it's no longer in "original condition" and its value is greatly reduced.

Same thing I told him.

[McFred]

If you have a safe, don't tell people. Don't keep it in plain sight unless you have a dummy one specifically for distracting thieves who would go after safes. If people don't know you have things to steal then you're less of a target. This is referred to as Operational Security. Just keep your mouth shut.

Layered physical security with detection/alarms tied to emergency response is the only way to go for irreplaceable assets. You have to perform your own risk analysis to see what measures you're willing to take to secure your assets. For a $300 plastic pistol it makes no sense to blow $20,000 on a vault. I agree dedicated thieves will eventually breach your security, the physical security aspects only supply delay so that someone has time to respond.

In terms of fire protection you can insulate a RSC in excess of the fire rating by stacking up gypsum board, fiberglass and refractory brick etc. outside of the box. It's generally not a great idea to put your safe on a floor that's not the ground floor either. A 1,000lb safe is not rated to fall 10-12+ feet in a house fire and maintain a good door seal while stewing in a bed of coals. Try to keep it where there's a lower fuel load too. A corner of the house, not in the garage next to all your high VOC paint and gas cans. If you live in a rural community with a threat of wildfire, don't put cord wood on the other side of the wall from your RSC etc.

With regard to insurance, I for one don't like having to itemize the contents of my RSC for the policy underwriter. If I could get blanket-coverage for a set value then that's different. That will hep you get back what was lost, but you'll always lose the deductible. Low deductibles mean higher premiums.

A lot of it is common sense. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

[smokeywolf]

McFred,
Good write up. Good advice.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If you are on the ground floor and can get through to earth, either through a wooden or concrete floor, use an earth augur (you can rent a power-driven one) to drill one or more deep holes, to fill with concrete and steel rods, of which one is either threaded or an internally threaded tube. With the safe bolted to what amounts to a deep pile, there is no way they can drag it out sideways.

[farmbif]

you might get some ideas if you watch the movie "Street Thief"

[Connelly47]

One gun shop I frequent has gun safes in the back and a soda machine. The safes hold guns that are in for repair, the soda machine holds holds the high end rifles when the store is closed. I'm there so often they are pretty lax around me, knowing I'm not a criminal. Still never figured out where the hand guns are locked up. The gun safe that you can't see is much harder to rob.

[FabMan]

It probably doesn't matter, but I would rather lose it in a fire than have some lazy lowlife who doesn't want to work take my hard earned items. Takes a lot of balls to break into someones house and steal with the possibility of hurting someone or getting hurt.