Heavy Leading in 9mm

[Alstep]

Greetings everyone,
Getting heavy leading in my 9mm. Bore slugs at .348-.356. Using a Lee 356-120TC, drops at .357. Alloy is 1Pb-1WW. BHN is 9.2 Lube is 45-45-10. 4.2gr Unique. Using as is, no sizing. Functions great in CZ75B. My guess is I need a bigger boolit, or harder alloy. Where am I going wrong???
Appreciate your advise.

[rhill]

At first I had the same problem with 9mm. I am using the same boolit, only mine drops at about .359 and I shoot without sizing. It turned out by switching powder 90% of the leading went away, and when I switched to Hi Tek coating I now have no leading at all. I was tumble lubing with LLA previously. In my case leading occurred with Bullseye, and when I switched to Unique it improved a lot. I am shooting 4.5gr. Unique. Maybe your bore does not like Unique and needs something else. I just bought a keg of Tite Group so I am curious to see what that does. There are a lot of variables shooting cast, so I would advise to only change one thing at a time when experimenting or else you will not know for sure what you did that changed the results. I myself would shoot 50 rounds with each change so you can really see any change in your bore. I know some people only load 10 or 20, but I have found it sometimes takes more rounds thru the tube to get a true idea of what your load is doing to your barrel. Keep us posted there are people here who know alot and can hopefully help you out.

[GhostHawk]

I would say bigger bullet first.

I had issues with a Hipoint C9 that evaporated as soon as I started feeding it .359 boolits.

As to the alloy, if the bigger boolit does not do it I might try a bit more WW or a touch of tin.
But normally I have no issues using range scrap. As long as the fit is good.

[BK7saum]

You may be loading 0.357 bullets, but what size is your expander? Chances are the case is sizing down your soft bullet to 0.356 or 0.355"

[BK7saum]

I usually use an expander the same size as the bullet and let springback be the neck tension on revolver ammo and a slightly smaller expander on semi-auto ammo. If this is a factory die set and expander, chances are it is 0.353 or 0.354 at the most.

[gloob]

In my case leading occurred with Bullseye, and when I switched to Unique it improved a lot.
I have wondered about powder. The conventional wisdom is that a fast powder can sometimes bump a soft bullet up a bit. But maybe if it's too fast, a softer bullet gets stripped by the rifling before it starts turning, or something.

At any rate, if your bullets are 357 and your bore is 356, you do not need the bullet to bump up, at all. You just have to make sure it gets into the barrel while still full size. So +1 to BK7saum. 1:1 Pb and Wheelweights @ 9 BHN is soft. If you want to use such a soft alloy, you really need to open up your cases, first. Esp in 9mm or 40SW. Even BHN18 bullets can get measurably swaged by a 9mm case, if the size die is tight. Regular industry standard 353 expander is not even an expander. It's just a flare die, AFAIC. The most it can open a case out to is ~351... lol. At 9 BHN, if you use a standard case sizing die and expander, you can be sure your bullets are not anywhere close to 357 at the base, once you have stuffed them into the case. Could be as small as... 352-353 or so. BTDT. But it depends, like I said, on your particular sizing die (and of course variation between brass). Not your stock expander. Your stock expander isn't doing any expanding in any case. You could replace it with Lee Universal Expander die, and you would get the same result.. which is it will work fine for most people for jacketed and commercial cast. But if you have a problem, particularly with such soft bullets, you can probably start looking right here.

FWIW, I am the lucky owner of a tight 9mm sizing die. I use NOE 356/360 expander plug, and life is good. Works fine for bullet diameter 355-357.

[Alstep]

My 9mm expander die sized the bullet very tight. When I pulled bullets, the brass sized down the bullets. So I used the expander from my .38 dies. Now the bullets seated easily and were not sized down. I still had severe leading.
The same 1-1 alloy with 45-45-10 lube leaves no leading at all in my .45ACP. I'm thinking higher pressure in the 9mm will need a harder alloy. I'm going to cast the next batch using WW only and see what happens.

[gloob]

Wow, that was quick. You have a shooting range in your backyard? :)

[runfiverun]

I shoot a cz-75B also and go a bit harder than ww allo and also use a 358 diameter.
B-troj is shooting the same set-up as I am right down to load and mold but he was suffering some minor leading and I wasn't.
he pulled his barrel and had some very rough spots right at the start of the rifling.
it's since been sent to Doug guy to get a throat cut into it.

[TXCOONDOG]

I'm having similar issues as described. I slugged my barrel at .356. I'm using straight COWW and even AC to BHN 14-16 it still leads my barrel sized at .356.5". Boolits sized at .357-.358 will not chamber reliably so I need to send my barrel to DougGuy for throating, etc as the next step.

Hopefully that solves my issue.

PS: I'm using Longshot and CCI 500 primers.

[Alstep]

Wow, that was quick. You have a shooting range in your backyard? :)

Yup, can shoot right off the back porch.

[rhill]

Don't forget if you use harder alloy, you can also water drop when casting and get your boolits even harder.

[Don Fischer]

I have never slugged a barrel. Shooting cast bullet's in handguns for over 40yrs, haven't learned a thing! I had to go check the dia of my 9mm bullet's. The one I checked were powder coated then sized through a .356 Lee sizer. I got just a bare shade under .356. I had a bunch I'd tumble coated and sized before coating but never measured them Neither the PC bullet's of the tumble cat bullet's have given me any leading at all. I don't know the answer but if I were you, I'd try some powder coated bullet's. I haven't used them a long time but sounds to me like the barrel and the gas don't burn off the powder coat. If you need a few PC billet's in .356 to try and your not to far off, I could let you have some. Ya know, my 38 bullet's and 32 bullet's I lube in a Lyman 450 and they have never leaded anything either. When I went to casting rifle bullet's, same experience, no leading at all tumble coating of PC. But before shooting them I read where all the copper fouling had to be out of the barrel before shooting cast in them. Pain in the but but both looked like new unfired barrels when I was done. I wonder if that does make a difference? I have never shot jacketed bullet's in my handguns!

[skeettx]

After you delead your barrel, do you lube your barrel.
I find that just like a cast iron skillet, the barrel needs
to be seasoned.
Mike

[tazman]

After you delead your barrel, do you lube your barrel.
I find that just like a cast iron skillet, the barrel needs
to be seasoned.
Mike

For best accuracy, seasoning the bore with whatever lube you intend to use is recommended by some of the top shooters.
I can't tell about that myself since I am not good enough to see the difference anyway. What I can tell is that I get great accuracy(for me) with no leading using water dropped boolits that are tumble lubed in all my guns including my 9mm handguns. I use range scrap and water drop. I don't have a BHN tester but you cannot scratch the boolits with your fingernail.
When I clean my guns after a session, I clean the exterior and the cylinder of my revolvers and the chamber and action of my semi-autos. I don't clean the barrels because they are never dirty or leaded.

[Alstep]

The weather let up around here today, so went out and ran another 50 rounds through the CZ75B. Same setup as before, except cast out of straight WW. Checks out to 14BHN. Still heavy leading. That Lee 356-120-TC functions flawlessly, but leading is awful and accuracy suffers. I think my next step is a .358+ mold. Been looking at an Arsenal 358-125-TC, which is similar to the Lee. Anybody have any experience with Arsenal molds? Your thoughts much appreciated.

[boho]

What works for my Bersa 9mm is the NOE 359242 with Felix lube and 700x.

[n.h.schmidt]

I have a question for you guys using up to .358 dia cast 9mm bullets. How do you deal with the case bulge that bottom edge of the bullet causes? I would like to use the .358 dia cast bullet for at least one of my 9mms. I have made a custom expander that is .3562 dia and when pushed deep enough to equal the bullet seating depth causes a bulge in the case . The case will not fit the chamber with the bulge. Many cases are so thick I can't see this working. I do have a few WW made cases that are thin sided and little to no bulge. Almost all range pickups have the thick sides. Thanks
n.h.schmidt

[skeettx]

I use a Lee Carbide 9mm Makarov sizing die,
Mike

[Edward]

Might be able to help as I have been there done that ,BLL /BHN 15 or PC and no lead in my GL26 and I"m in Eldred NY. PM anytime/Ed

[tomme boy]

Use a 38 S&W expander and most of your problems will go away. Your bullet is being sized down by the case.

[Alstep]

Been using a 38 S&W expander, and even made one a thou bigger. I can just about seat the bullet by hand, and then just lightly taper crimp. Still have leading problems. Any more thoughts???

[Dusty Bannister]

Take a look at the throat in the barrel and see what the max OAL of a loaded cartridge is that will just touch the lands. If the bullet is not nearly against the lands, you will be "floating" in hot gasses until the bullet is blown forward to seal the barrel. See if the OAL will even allow the bullet to be seated in the case. Some mistakes have been made and if set to touch the lands, the bullet is not even in the case. Dowel rod or cleaning rod method will help you get this determined.

[tomme boy]

0.358"+

I run 0.359" Never leads in any 9mm I have shot them in. I use plain range scrap to 1/2 scrap 1/2 WW. Or what ever I have. I have a CZ75 compact clone. , P38, G26, G19. None of them lead. bullseye, red dot, unique, tightgroup, 231 whatever I feel like I have the most of.

Myself I HATE the 45,45,10 or the BLL. Never could get it to work in anything other than coating the bore rider section of rifle bullets. And I even stopped doing that as it is too messy.

[Phlier]

Alstep, what OAL are you loading to?

[Alstep]

OAL is 1.045. Just barely backed off touching the lands. Just a tiny bit of full diameter is exposed. If OAL is any longer, cartridge will not "plunk" all the way. Charge is 4.2 Unique. Last alloy was straight WW. Bullets mike at .357. Bore slugs at .356. Gun functions great, not a hickup. Still think I need a bullet .358+.
Anybody got any more ideas??? Comments??? Suggestions??? All welcome and appreciated.

[Phlier]

Looks like you've really run the gamut here. Only thing I can think of is even harder alloy.

[tomme boy]

Water drop them. Lube them unsized. Let them sit for a few weeks before loading and shooting. If this does not work then you are going to need to try to conventional lube them.

[bigolsmokebomb]

Have you tried powder coating your boolits? I used pc boolits in my glock sized to .358 after pc and don't get any leading. I use the standard lee 9mm dies but I did a lot of tweaking and pulling to get it to not bulge my case and get it to seat flush in a chamber checker. I do get some that bulge from time to time but its those that I don't set in straight.

[gwpercle]

OAL is 1.045. Just barely backed off touching the lands. Just a tiny bit of full diameter is exposed. If OAL is any longer, cartridge will not "plunk" all the way. Charge is 4.2 Unique. Last alloy was straight WW. Bullets mike at .357. Bore slugs at .356. Gun functions great, not a hickup. Still think I need a bullet .358+.
Anybody got any more ideas??? Comments??? Suggestions??? All welcome and appreciated.

Here is what I did. After using the Lee 356-120-TC for awhile and getting similar results. I ordered an NOE 358-124-TC - GC. the GC stands for gas check and that made all the difference ! These have been used in 4 different 9 mm pistols. I use the same 50-50 lead /COWW alloy , sized to .357 , lubed with Lithium - Beeswax (1 to 3 ), and with that check attached NO LEADING. I have even shot this boolit out of my Ruger BH 357 magnum(sized .357 and .358 ) with some stiff loads and had no leading.
The gas check may be cheating, but it works. I kept nagging Al until they made a run, GC and PB moulds are still in stock if you want to do it the easy way.
Another thing is the TC design is very accurate in both 38 special and 357 magnum . The GC lets you use the softer 50/50 alloy and just air cool the boolits, no water dropping needed. The NOE boolits drop out .3585 with the 50/50 alloy, perfect for sizing to .358 .
Gary

[nhyrum]

Read "from ingot to target" in the stickies, or at least the leading section. Phenomenal read, and will explain the causes and solutions.

Making the allow harder won't solve the problem.

Try switching lubes and/or use more lube.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[Phlier]

Read "from ingot to target" in the stickies, or at least the leading section. Phenomenal read, and will explain the causes and solutions.

Making the allow harder won't solve the problem.

Try switching lubes and/or use more lube.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Well, that depends on the cause of the leading. Often, a harder alloy *will* cause certain cases of leading to go away. In my 9mm's, I have to cast with a minimum BHN of 15 in order to keep the brass from swaging down the boolit to a size too small for my barrels.

There are other instances where harder alloys will help, too.. interestingly enough, they're all discussed in "From Ingot To Target". :)

[nhyrum]

Well, that depends on the cause of the leading. Often, a harder alloy *will* cause certain cases of leading to go away. In my 9mm's, I have to cast with a minimum BHN of 15 in order to keep the brass from swaging down the boolit to a size too small for my barrels.

There are other instances where harder alloys will help, too.. interestingly enough, they're all discussed in "From Ingot To Target". :)
I guess I should have said, making the alloy harder won't necessarily solve the problem.

I know they're covered. I literally just read the sections yesterday.

If the brass is swaging the bullets, you need more of a flare

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[tomme boy]

You don't need more flare, you need a larger and deeper inside diameter. That is the purpose of the 38 S&W expander.

Alstep. Try a different powder. Tightgroup or 231/hp38. They are more appropriate to the 9mm than unique.

[Phlier]

Yeah, it isn't the top of the brass that's causing the swaging, it occurs deeper down in the case, hence the need for the larger expander that tomme boy suggested. I'm using a .360/.356 flare/expander from NOE that seems to be working quite well.

[Shiloh]

If they are undersized and rating down the bore, you get leading. As suggested, check the size of a pulled seated boolit. I size to 158. My expander is custom and .3555 IIRC.

Shiloh

[gloob]

If they are undersized and rating down the bore, you get leading. As suggested, check the size of a pulled seated boolit. I size to 158. My expander is custom and .3555 IIRC.
Undersized bullets don't rattle down the bore. The lands are touching. The problem is they don't seal all the grooves. Hot gas shooting through the gap(s) melts the bullet in short order, depositing lots of lead and causing the bullet to erode and lose any semblance of symmetry.


In my 9mm's, I have to cast with a minimum BHN of 15 in order to keep the brass from swaging down the boolit to a size too small for my barrels.
IME, even 18 BHN bullets can be affected by case swaging in 9mm and 40SW cases. Whether or not this makes a difference depends on your gun. As others have stated, hardening your alloy is just one way to skin this cat. A larger expander plug will also likely solve this problem. I can shoot alloy around 11 BHN in 9mm, using 356 diameter expander plug, no problem. With stock expander, I get fouling and noticeable loss of long range accuracy, even with 18 BHN, even though calipers cannot really decisively show the tiny difference. Change expander and the fouling disappears. Accuracy is great. Some of my guns just happens to need ALL of that 356 bullet all the way to the base.

+1 on the NOE 356/360 expander plug. I wouldn't let anyone who would take my advice load cast 9mm bullets without this $10.00 game-changer. And I don't care the BHN, what lube you use, or even if you powder coat. If you want to make the best 9mm cast ammo, it starts right here. It costs $10.00. You put it in your die, and it lasts forever after. Everytime you pull that lever, you're making a better cartridge.

[Alstep]

Update.
Weather finally cleared off today, nice and sunny, 30*. So ran another trial.
Same Lee 356-120-TC bullet, drops out of the mold at .357, straight WW, 45-45-10 lube, 3.8 gr 231, very light taper crimp to just kill the belling, same leading results. Made an expander plug that's .3575 and goes .300 into the case, so no reducing the size of bullets. Horrible leading and lucky to get an 11" group at 30 yards. Sure does function nicely in the CZ75B tho. I'm thinking I'll have to order a bigger mold from NOE.
Appreciate all your input, anybody have any more thoughts?

[autopilotmp]

Questions
1 did you completely scrub your barrel of copper?
2 have you tried a conventional lube yet?
3 measured boolits in several places? (My mold casts .3565 at widest but .3545 at just off the mold line)
I know these are obvious but haven't seen them answered yet so could be valid.

[Alstep]

1. Barrel was thoroughly scrubbed clean. Last couple hundred rounds were lead, and with all the leading, was scrubbed out with a wire brush wrapped with copper pot scrubber. Even lubed with a patch lightly dabbed with 45-45-10 to "season" the bore as suggested earlier.
2. Have not tried conventional lube. Always had good results in other guns with 45-45-10.
3. This mold casts pretty round bullets. .357 - .3575
I'm thinking maybe a mold that drops .358+ might be the next step???

[MT Gianni]

Where is it leading? In the front of the bbl or starting with the front is generally throat and size issues, at the rear is generally lube issues, assuming a relatively smooth bbl.

[putnro01]

Running 9mm in a very very similar gun, CZ-SP01 (75b variant). Had the same issue. Bore slugged .356, ran .358 boolits through it cast from straight WW. Used a NOE TC, PB&GC, 124g mold. BAC from the white label folks. Pushed with bullseye. Keyholed with the PB, and ok with GC. Was already using an m-die for an expander, so I think that eliminated swaging.

To tighten my groups, all I did was water drop those WW boolits. Worked wonders.

Current load is now water dropped wheelweights, pushed by either Bullseye or Unique.

[6622729]

Fit is the first to work on. I think you're a little small in diameter. I'd also harden up the alloy a little and go with straight WW then I'd switch powder.

[Phlier]

Running 9mm in a very very similar gun, CZ-SP01 (75b variant). Had the same issue. Bore slugged .356, ran .358 boolits through it cast from straight WW. Used a NOE TC, PB&GC, 124g mold. BAC from the white label folks. Pushed with bullseye. Keyholed with the PB, and ok with GC. Was already using an m-die for an expander, so I think that eliminated swaging.

To tighten my groups, all I did was water drop those WW boolits. Worked wonders.

Current load is now water dropped wheelweights, pushed by either Bullseye or Unique.

My son shoots an SP-01. Sweet gun.


One thing to consider is that the GC's are preventing the case swage effect.


If you're running the standard 9mm Lyman M-Die, you aren't expanding it wide enough to prevent case swaging. If you're running the 38 S&W M-Die, you're probably opening it wide enough to prevent swaging, though.


With a GC, you might even be able to get away without water dropping them, especially if you're using a 38 S&W expander.


I'm really glad my son got the SP-01 model, as I've read that a lot of the other 75 variants aren't very friendly to shooting cast.


We've put a bit over 7,000 rounds of cast through his SP-01 now, and it eats them like candy. I got him a Cajun Gun works trigger kit for Christmas, but can't get him to stop shooting it long enough to have it installed.

[Alan Bycroft]

Hi guys....reading this whole thread and absorbing as much as i can. I came here because I too get some leading in my 9mm Shield, but none at all with my Sig 2022. Using a Lee TL356-124-RN then water drop, then size to .356 with Lee sizer. I pc using Smokes powder. I don't resize after pc, but used to. They come out about +.001. I have thought about getting a .358 mold but dont know what would work best. I have heard TCs don't feed well in semi-autos, so I like my Lee RN#2 shape. I've never heard about the expander plug, so maybe will try that. I will say, when seating my boolits, it is a tight fit and wouldnt be surprised that they are getting swaged down. It hadn't occurred to me to pull one and check the size. Thanks! Just to be clear...the NOE expander plug is the .360/356?