.54 paperpatch question

[bhuch5]

I keep reading about successful paperpatch loads and they always seem to be for .50 cal barrels. My question is this : Does anyone have a good shooting paperpatch load for a .54 barrel with a 1:48 twist? I have 2 that I want to pp but have not gotten the size die yet so at this point I am on hold with this project. Am I wasting my time with this or is there hope ?
Thank you, Bruce H

[54bore]

I keep reading about successful paperpatch loads and they always seem to be for .50 cal barrels. My question is this : Does anyone have a good shooting paperpatch load for a .54 barrel with a 1:48 twist? I have 2 that I want to pp but have not gotten the size die yet so at this point I am on hold with this project. Am I wasting my time with this or is there hope ?
Thank you, Bruce H

I have NOT had good luck with it so far, i had 2 sizing dies made for my 54s, a .538 and a .539, The guy that made the dies for me told me that 'usually' best accuracy will be found 1-2 thousandths under bore Diameter. The best i have gotten so far is with the Lee R.E.A.L. Bullets, They make 2 weights of R.E.A.L.s for 54 Cal, a 300 grain and a 380, i have the heavier 380 Grain, i wish i had the smaller 300 Grain as it is quite a bit shorter, The 300 grain Lee R.E.A.L. Looks to be as short a bullet as you can possibly get for a .54 and i believe that is EXACTLY what you need to make a paper patched bullet fly good in a 1:48 twist barrel. The 1:48 Twist is a middle of the rd twist, designed to shoot 'anything' conicals, or patched round balls, but not a master of either. Strictly Round ball you want a Slow 1:66-1:70 twist, And for Conical bullets you want a Fast Twist like 1:30, i personally would not go any faster than 1:28-1:30 for 54 Cal, and probably a 1:32 would be better yet for most bullets available for .54 Caliber.
Again, i believe the little short 300 Grain Lee R.E.A.L. Bullet for .54 is the best chance you have in a 1:48 stock twist barrel. I have just about lost all interest in messing with stock 48 twist .54 Cals. I have 2 barrels that TRULY shoot like high end scoped center fire rifles, and those are my Green Mountain LRH barrels, a 45 and 50 Cal. With my .50 Cal shooting a 460 grain Paper Patched bullet what would i gain with a .54 Cal? NOTHING! If i were SUPER SERIOUS about a 54 bullet shooter, i would buy the Lyman Great Plains Hunter rifle, 1:32 Twist designed for Conical bullets.

[Good Cheer]

A possibility I'm looking into is to take advantage of the fletching effect provided by grease grooves at the rear of a boolit with a relatively small hollow base. I think that between the two factors contributing to stability that a wide flat nose can be used in a slow twist. And that with paper patching the gas cutting can be minimized or eliminated in fairly deep grooves.

This is follow on to having used the old traditional style thick skirted Lyman #542622 minie with heavy charges in the .54 GPR. The twist is plenty fast enough for a minie. But you have to use a lot of powder though to get the grooves sealed off and that has the tendency to act like a cutting torch. And the Lyman .54 minie has a pointy nose; good for adding stability but not so good if I use it for hunting.

The possibly workable solution is to use Lyman #533476.
185209
It has plenty of weight, a flat nose for hunting, it can be patched up to the GPR bore, the new plug gives a thin lip and thick wall to work with stout charges, the patch will help keep the deleterious effects of the blow torch to a minimum, the grooves and hollow base help keep the rear to the rear...
I think this home made "buffalo" will work in the TC, the GPR and a Hoyt .54.
We'll see.

[54bore]

I had high hopes in these Lee Minie's, but ended up with the absolute worse group I've ever shot, i would have needed a 4X8 sheet of plywood to give an accurate group measurement, and thats no joke! My mold is the 540-415, Sized to .538 then 2 wraps of 9# onion skin, and sized thru a .539 to pinch the paper on good and tight. Idahoron mentioned the 533-410 and it makes good sense at .533 to wrap it up, but i can not imagine it being much better than mine, the ending result after patched up would be the same size as my bullet after a trip thru my sizer. I will likely never know for sure tho, unless some of them fell from the sky, I'm done buying .54 molds

185210

[izzyjoe]

I have a 54 T/C hawken, and the Renegade, and I've often thought about this, as I get so so results with a patched RB. I also have the Real 380, but have yet to try it.

[johnson1942]

guys, i have found this out. the bigger the bullet the better they respond to the single wrap system. i could not get my 3 fast twist 50/s to respond well to double wrap but when i went to the single wrap system the groups become one hole groups shot after shot. same with the 54. you dont want to patch a muzzle loader bullet with wet paper also. looks good when done but patch dry. use 18 pound paper and single wrap and put down the muzzle on top of a good wad to keep the paper on the bullet. every thing becomes simple after that.

[Good Cheer]

54bore,
From what I'm seeing in working with hollow bases the nine pound might not be strong enough (signs of paper failure at the lip of the skirt). But when I gets my O2it in gear I'll find out whether or not that's applicable with my .54 contraption.

[koger]

I have had great success with Johnson 1942 and Idaho Rons paper patching instructions in .50 and as of late .45, in fast twist. But I have had great success with 1-48 twist and conventional Maxi Hunter type slugs, Hornady Great Plain, TC maxi Hunters, Buffalo bullets and the Lyman Plains hunter. I have a TC Hawken barrel , 28', 1-48, on a Rengade stock, that is full length glass bedded. With any of the slugs mentioned here, and 105 grs of 2FFG, and a fiber wad from Mikes Wads at Friendship underneath the slug, they will shoot about 1"-1 1/2" groups, all day long at 100yds. I worked these loads up with a scope mounted, you cant hit what you can see, and 46 dead deer at ranges from 40-200yds cant be wrong. I had a buddy with the same setup, that did not keep them on a paper plate at 100yds, I glass bedded the stock, switched him from Pyrodex to Black 2ffg and cloverleafs at 100yds. In the past 25+ years as a gunsmith, I have glass bedded over 50 ML rifles, helped them all to some degree, even new inlines with synthetic stocks, as they are loose and assembly line manufactured. A dozen 1-48 rifles I have tweaked all shot stellar with maxi type slugs. I think most folks don't shoot enough to get used to their rifle, don't elimante all the small things that cause accuracy loss. Johnson1942 can attest to the fact that I, like him, are a accuracy nut, and have take a lot of deer at long range. If you want, pm me your phone#, I can even send you some wads, 450grain Lyman Plains slugs if you want, to try them. I think with the paper patch , 1-48 twist,we are chasing a ghost in the .54 area, where going to lighter slugs, wont gain anything. Paper patching is best suited in the faster twists, 1-28-1-32 etc. Just my two cents worth,. If your barrel is good, it will shoot good with the stuff mentioned here.

[dnepr]

I have had reasonable success with the Lyman 425 gr Minnie . Bare the bullet would slide forward off the powder charge under hunting conditions but I paper patched them with common printer paper and they would stay put. They also shot better out of a clean bore . This was in a TC hawkens and the load was 80 gr of 777

[glockky]

guys, i have found this out. the bigger the bullet the better they respond to the single wrap system. i could not get my 3 fast twist 50/s to respond well to double wrap but when i went to the single wrap system the groups become one hole groups shot after shot. same with the 54. you dont want to patch a muzzle loader bullet with wet paper also. looks good when done but patch dry. use 18 pound paper and single wrap and put down the muzzle on top of a good wad to keep the paper on the bullet. every thing becomes simple after that.

Do you cut this patch with 45deg angles on each end? Do you put the slick side of the paper towards the bullet or bore?

[johnson1942]

put the slick side to the bore and cut at a 90 degree angle so the paper looks like a rectangle. fold over the paper on to the base of the bullet and put ontop of a stiff wad as you load into the muzzle. simple and always works.

[glockky]

I guess I was thinking you used freezer paper. My google search is showing 18lb paper as just basic copying paper. Is this correct?

[54bore]

I guess I was thinking you used freezer paper. My google search is showing 18lb paper as just basic copying paper. Is this correct?

He does use Freezer paper, it has the glossy finish on one side. I have yet to try this method but i plan to.

[johnson1942]

i got the idea a couple of years ago from a internet search about paperpatching the heavy bench muzzleloaders with starters. they use freezer wrap paper and the single wrap. they place the single wrapped bullet into the starter and then the starter places the wrapped bullet into the barrel. i thought to my self, why do i have to use a starter to do this? so i tried doing as they do but not useing a starter and wrapped the bullet as i was loading and placed it on top of a stiff wad just in the muzzle then down the barrel and seated. it worked perfectly. the paper came off at the muzzle, usually in one piece and accuracy was 100 percent consistant every shot. two brothers that i taught this system to using modern custom built inlines in 1/18 twist 45 cal rifles get hand size groups and smaller at 500 yards. they have won many 500 yard matches with this method. they told me when they use the freezer wrap paper their is never ever any build up in the bore and it really gets slick from the poly coating on the paper. they have shot ft per second up to 2200 ft per second and the paper stood up to it. the method is very very simple and easy to learn and use.

[mooman76]

I have heard of someone who used the paper that is wraped around butter and margerin, claiming it is very strong. Of coarse if you shoot much, you may have a difficult time aquiring enough paper.

[54bore]

I have heard of someone who used the paper that is wraped around butter and margerin, claiming it is very strong. Of coarse if you shoot much, you may have a difficult time aquiring enough paper.

My guess is about 2 shots this route, you would have to eat a LOT of butter, or shoot VERY little

[RBak]

i got the idea a couple of years ago from a internet search about paperpatching the heavy bench muzzleloaders with starters. they use freezer wrap paper and the single wrap. they place the single wrapped bullet into the starter and then the starter places the wrapped bullet into the barrel. i thought to my self, why do i have to use a starter to do this? so i tried doing as they do but not useing a starter and wrapped the bullet as i was loading and placed it on top of a stiff wad just in the muzzle then down the barrel and seated. it worked perfectly. the paper came off at the muzzle, usually in one piece and accuracy was 100 percent consistant every shot. two brothers that i taught this system to using modern custom built inlines in 1/18 twist 45 cal rifles get hand size groups and smaller at 500 yards. they have won many 500 yard matches with this method. they told me when they use the freezer wrap paper their is never ever any build up in the bore and it really gets slick from the poly coating on the paper. they have shot ft per second up to 2200 ft per second and the paper stood up to it. the method is very very simple and easy to learn and use.
Johnson1942...are you referring to "wax paper" the common house hold type, or are you referring to the Brown Heavy Butcher Paper, purchased in larger rolls?
"Freezer Paper", to the best of my knowledge, is a bit different than "Butcher Paper".
I have been following your writings on this with a great deal of interest, but now I'm getting myself confused...at least in my own mind, as to the exact paper you are referring to.
I tried some heavy duty "freezer paper" cut to the proper dimensions, but it was so "springy" it wouldn't stay on the resized REAL well enough to load. Tried it a couple of times, once dry and once with the REAL lubed.

Would you be kind enough to enlighten us, probably just me, on the paper you use.
Does "Freezer Paper" come in different grades, or thickness?
Any help greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Russ

[johnson1942]

renyolds freezer wrap paper. i dont know if i spelled renyolds right? it is white, and has a poly coat on one side and is 18 pound in thickness. i live in about the most backward and remote area of the wonderful U.S. and they carry it at my podunk local food store. the only place i heard it was hard to get was old racer had a hard time out in calif. getting it. he said he finally found some at a farmers market stall. one chap roll will last you the rest of your life. i dont know if you have read my article on ramshot.com yet but if you havent go to ramshot.com, then to their blog section and read and with pictures the article on paperpatching the inline muzzleloader. it is for any barrel, not just inlines. it may help clear things up. call me also if you want. i get calls about every wk. since that article went public. again as i mentioned before, one was from a military col. and we got his 1/48 twist .54 cal shooting 1 inch groups consistanly at 100 yards. a just retired marine sg. called me recently and we talked for 2 hours. he is going to build a sidelock fastwist hunting pp rifle off of those notes. its hard at first to ferret out the info but stick with it and all of a sudden you will get it and then you will be treaching others. i know 54 bore is going to do that as he is about there. idaho ron does it all the time. the list is relly growing. i most proud of teaching a disabled man back in penn. a couple of years ago over the email. he wanted to hunt deer with the help of his family. he learned it very well and his family set a blind for him and a nice stool in it and helped him into the blind. just as the sun come up he got his deer at 100 yards with one pp shot. he was very happy and i was happy to help him do it.pp is a growing club. there are a lot doing it that never post, they just stop by and learn and pass it on to others. keep going, you will get there.

[RBak]

Thank you, Sir
Looks like I got the right paper, I will head on over to ramshot.com and see if I can't get me some learnings...lol
Like many others, Idaho Ron got me started several years ago and I ain't looked back, don't know why I'm having problems with this one but we'll get it worked out....Thanks again

Russ

[johnson1942]

i just noticed your from the columbia basin. please tell me about the fishing, my wife and i was thinking about relocateing there. is that columbia river full of fish and what kind are they? sorry to get off track.

[RBak]

Yes, Please check your PM.

Russ

[Good Cheer]

The lefty .54 flinter fast twist barrels never having been produced by Lyman...
I've thought about having my unfired fifty round ball barrel recut to primo paper patch rifling.

Dunno, maybe I'll just sell the barrel if somebody needs a lefty fifty.:rolleyes:

[Saxtonyoung]

johnson1942 - you mentioned how a couple of military men shot excellent groups with the 54 cal. with 1-48" twist but I didn't see what bullets they were using.

[54bore]

johnson1942 - you mentioned how a couple of military men shot excellent groups with the 54 cal. with 1-48" twist but I didn't see what bullets they were using.

I am curious of the same thing? If they are using the chase wrap system with butcher paper they would have to be using a smaller .520s-.530ish diameter bullet? How thick is 18# butcher paper?

[johnson1942]

they used mini bullets for the 54 cast with most of the hollow base part cut down so the mini was a cupped base. they resized it so when wrapped with a 18 pound freezer wrap paper one wrap it was about 2 thousands under the top of the lands bore size.i really dont know if you can buy wads for the 54 cal but if you can then you will have to figure out how to make a good tight one. a wad is very important in paperpatch shooting. ill go into the basement now and see what thickness the freezer wrap paper is if i can find all my stuff.

[johnson1942]

it is 3 thousands thick. i also have two tablets of artist paper that is 18 pound paper that would work very well also but one roll for freezer wrap paper will last a long long time. i, again, do not cut my paper on the slant, i just cut it rectangle according to a template i made. the fellows with the heavy guns and starters use a none slanted paper also.i think one of the best 54 cal for shooting pp would be a thompson 54 with a 1/48 twist. just reshape the base plug on the mold and resize the cast bullet to the right size for your gun. get a good 54 cal wad cutter and your in business. it is fun to make guns shoot way better than they were ment to be.

[54bore]

The Lee .533-410 Minie mold should work well here!

[bhuch5]

The Lee .533-410 Minie mold should work well here!

I cast a few of these today. I cut the base plug so there is maybe 1/8"- left. They weigh in at 458 gr unwrapped. Have some double wrapped in 9# onion skin and will do this batch in freezer wrap (single). Mine measured right at .539 and go down well so will try them without further sizing.Weather report says 10 more days of rain here so should have plenty of time for more casting, wrapping and reloading ammo. Might also get my underhammer finished, a 50 cal with 1:32 twist. Using Idahorons info for this one.
Good shooting, Bruce H

[glockky]

Johnson what wad material are you using? And how thick?

[johnson1942]

60 thousands thick fiber or poly wad. i have wad punches that are loading press mounted and cut my own 38, 45 colt and 45/70 and 50 cal wads. i have made wads out of the rubber cork gasket material you can buy sheets of at the auto parts store and that is good wad material also.

[glockky]

I've been looking to buy some wad material and couldn't figure out where to purchase something beside durafelt

[54bore]

I've been looking to buy some wad material and couldn't figure out where to purchase something beside durafelt

I just recently bought some Poly and Vegetable fibre wad material in bulk at Buffalo Arms both in 60 Thou, i bought 2 press mounted Fred Cornell Wad punches there as well a .45 and a .50, they are spendy but they work SLICK!! Buffalo carries both Wad materials, in 30 and 60 thou. They had plenty on the shelf when i was there

[glockky]

Only problem is nobody makes a 54 cal wad punch. May have to make one.

[54bore]

Only problem is nobody makes a 54 cal wad punch. May have to make one.

I have a set of Hammer strike Hole punches as well, 5/8" is what i use for my 54s