Martini Cadet Question

[Craiger1987]

I'm new to the Cadets but there seems to be a number of knowlageble people here with them. I've only put 200 rounds through mine but I love these little rifles already. My uncle shot mine and lived it so much he had me hunt one down for him, which leads me to my question. I noticed on his, when the rifle is decocked, there is zero movement of the breech block. On mine however, when the rifle is decocked and I hold the rifle upside down, there is vertical play in the block. There is none while it's cocked it locks up nice and tight but one the trigger is pulled the breech block can rise by about .02" give or take a little. Is this normal on these rifles or is mine kinda worn out?

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Photo?

Highly unlikely but you may have a "Pieper" made Belgian copy which looks the same but is quite different.

[Craiger1987]

https://youtu.be/_zHs5QyRd00

heres a link to a video of the rifle. I don't think it's a Belgian one it does say BSA on it but I don't know what THE elf and would have done. I don't really see what would keep the breech block from moving freely in order to fix it, the only thing I can think of it getting it closer to the breech face? Would that be right?

[Bad Ass Wallace]

That's normal internal tolerances, with a round in the breech it won't happen!

NSW BSA Martini Cadet. they are lovely little rifles!

[Craiger1987]

Thanks for the info, I was a bit worried about it after seeing how tight the other one is, but that one I'm pretty sure was never issued and was fired very little if at all. You're right these are super fun little rifles, I've got a second one one the way now lol and I'm considering a conversion of a 12-15 to centerfire but I'm not sure how involved that is and how available the parts are.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

I own over 40 Martinis in many different chamberings!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/MartiniAll_A_zpsa40c2b1c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/MartiniAll_A_zpsa40c2b1c.jpg.html)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It sounds like an entirely harmless condition. What would worry me, and I think could only arise from ham-handed amateur messing-about, would be if you can press the breech block down from its cocked and loaded position. I would check the headspace if that happened.

What allows the block to rise is lack of contact between the block and the barrel face. You could cure it by setting the barrel back a thread and recutting the rim recess. (In the Cadet you might not have to do anything to the front end of the chamber.) But apart from not being necessary, firm contact of the block against the barrel fact when the block is level and ready to fire, is usually considered harmful to accuracy. We are talking very fine adjustment here, and if the rifle's present condition bothers you, a more sensible way of dealing with it is a thin metal shim epoxied or soldered to the rear face of the lockwork frame. You can try it with tape first.

I doubt very much if you would find parts like a new block assembly to convert a BSA 12/15 to centrefire, and although I have found one Cadet and one rimfire block interchangeable, I don't know that that is always the case. It is quite difficult to detect whether the block face ends up at a slight angle to the case head. I've done the conversion with existing parts, and it does work.

There might be Belgian small Martinis which don't stand up well to wear, or are of mediocre accuracy - I don't know. But Lithe Cadet action was mostly Francotte's patent, and Liège proofing was reliable. Francotte supplied .297/.230 Cadet rifles to Australia, and they are cheaper there than the British ones, e.g. on http://www.australianarmsauctions.com/ . Pieper made some lifting-block saloon rifles and pistols which are well-made but weak, but their work in other firearms is very good - not just in the sense of fine workmanship, but attention to basic principles. They probably invented monobloc double shotgun construction, for example, out of aversion of possibly weakening brazing of the barrels, and for the same reason my Pieper shotgun not only has chopper lumps (i.e. forged integrally with each barrel tubes), but has them joined with an almost invisible vertical dovetail joint. I'd back Francotte and Pieper, and probably other reputable Belgian firms, to make Martinis as well as anybody's.

[Craiger1987]

Thanks for all of this info you guys are great. And that's quite the martini collection you've got there! Now that I've got two in .310 im hoping to find one in .357 and maybe one in Hornet. Then maybe one of the large frame ones in 45-70, as much as I would love a 577/450 it would require a new press to make brass from 24 GA and some other equipment that I don't have or have the space for as a condo dweller :/ having shot the little martini it's a nice change from the high speeds and flat trajectories of my other more modern rifles. It's got me thinking maybe I need a low wall in 32-20 at some point too :P

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, historical associations apart, I find the .577/.450 an unloveable cartridge, and expensive to load for. If I had one I think I would bite on the bullet (figuratively speaking) and go for Bertram cases. I have heard various reports that Magtech 24ga don't last with even full-power black powder loads.

I own but haven't shot a Belgian sporting carbine in .40-65 or some virtually indistinguishable European cartridge. It isn't very different from the .402 round the British adopted and promptly withdrew before it turned into the last single-shot military rifle in the world. You are very unlikely to find one of those unconverted to .577/.450, but with its Metford rifling to resist fouling, Another large Martini cartridge which promises to be better than the .577/.450 is the .450 New South Wales Police Carbine, which is basically just one of the obsolete shorter versions, in this case 2¼in., of the .450 Express.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Low walls are equal fun; this one has been relined and fitted with a BSA No.8 long range target sight

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/3220LW2.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/3220LW2.jpg.html)

[Hooker53]

Hey BA. Is that low wall a 310 Greener Mag??? Wink. Ha.

[enfield]

Hey, BA, I just acquired a #8 "extra tall" staff sight. Like the one on the low wall but taller. were they used on regular BSA Martinis just for long range, or did the get matched up with a taller front sight. It's 3.27" from mounting screws to top of elevation knob.
's .

[Ballistics in Scotland]

th
Low walls are equal fun; this one has been relined and fitted with a BSA No.8 long range target sight



I never did like the logic that if a gun doesn't have an external hammer, it isn't a real black powder rifle. The absence of one doesn't change the colour of the powder. But I admit that when I imagine my ideal Martini, it would be something like the Westley Richards Improved Martini or Swinburn, with a concealed internal hammer. I have never seen inside a Swinburn, but I think it should permit leaving more metal in the front of the block. That Low Wall is nice, and a half-cock position is useful, but it must be quite tedious to have the case eject in a common old straight line.

[commando223]

I own over 40 Martinis in many different chamberings!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/MartiniAll_A_zpsa40c2b1c.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/MartiniAll_A_zpsa40c2b1c.jpg.html)

Impressive

[BigEyeBob]

Just about to add 5 Martinis to my collection , from a friends deceased estate .
380Rook ,300Sherwood ,297Morris long , 32-20 ,and a Bsa international 22cal .

[Craiger1987]

Nice. I do believe the 380 rook can be made from 32 long colt brass and the proper heeled bullet. Either BACO or CBE will carry lead and a mould for it. The 32-20 will likely be a rechambered 310 cadet in which case shooting long 310 ammo will be the best way to go. Ammo can be made from 32-20 brass and the heeled bullet. The source for those again being BACO and CBE. Those are some sweet guns though, have to post some pictures and a range report when you can.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

The ammunition can be complex and a nightmare as shown in the attachment. L to R 310 Cadet, 32/20 before fireforming and loaded.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/IMG_2478_zps854c0f3b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/IMG_2478_zps854c0f3b.jpg.html)

[BigEyeBob]

I already load for 310 ,cast my projectiles using a CBE mould .It will be some time before I actuallly take possesion of the rifles due to the rigmarole I have to go through because they are in another state ,not to mention that the 380 rook and the 297/230 Morris dont require registration in NSW ,but have to be registered in the NT .So much for Jackboot Johnnies rediculous uniform gun laws.