New 45-70 mould- what alloy for hunting?

[Goshawk]

Just ordered a new Accurate 46-420-H for my Marlin GBL. I will be pushing these out at approx 1500 fps. Shots are always 150 yards or less, mostly under 75 yards. Game is moose, deer and black bear but grizzlies live in my backyard and since over the counter tags are no longer sold the grizzly bear population has really grown. I want a bullet that will work on my normal game but also break bone on moose and grizzly. I am a one rifle one load shoot everything guy so what alloy for this bullet?

[45stomp]

Just ordered a new Accurate 46-420-H for my Marlin GBL. I will be pushing these out at approx 1500 fps. Shots are always 150 yards or less, mostly under 75 yards. Game is moose, deer and black bear but grizzlies live in my backyard and since over the counter tags are no longer sold the grizzly bear population has really grown. I want a bullet that will work on my normal game but also break bone on moose and grizzly. I am a one rifle one load shoot everything guy so what alloy for this bullet?


Is this one Goshawk Longbows by any chance?
Darcy:)

[Smoke4320]

I can tell you this This year I have killed 4 deer all at 75-80 yds using NOE 460-350 with deep hollowpoint
2 with 50 cal muzzleloader using Knight black sabot and 50/50 mix Powdercoated 100 grns Jim Shockeys pellets
2 with 45-70's using 98/2 alloy

none of the 4 took a single step after hit

[45stomp]

I'd recommend straight WW alloy, air cooled, or 50-50 water dropped would work too.......heck 20:1 would be fine as well. I've killed with all of those, and they all perform well at the speeds you are considering. Heavy, not too hard, and moderate speed kills well.

Darcy

[Blackwater]

If grizzlies are on the menu, if it were me, I'd want to step up that velocity a bit. And for alloy, I'd use at least ACWW's with at least 2% tin, and probably would opt for 4% on griz. Tin tends to act like a "glue" in holding a lead bullet together, and this tends to ensure deeper and more consistent penetration, even if bone is hit.


But I've never shot a griz, and don't live where there are any, so you'll need to take that into account, too. But from all the bullet testing I've done, I'm confident enough in this that it's definitely what I'd do were it me, which it ain't. Griz don't always give you a 2nd chance, especially in a growing population, that always seems to embolden them, and make some become rather more desperate than in a true wilderness setting. Lots of factors enter into these decisions. I certainly wish you luck in any encounters you may have with them!

Edited to add: Oh! And the REASON I'd up the velocity is because velocity is one of the components that determine penetration. The faster a bullet, the more it CAN penetrate, providing the alloy is up to it. With ACWW's and 4% tin, you'd have good velocity, and good wt. and frontal area, and good expansion AND penetration, all in one package. Ought to work for moose and most anything else, too, including deer.

Deer respond well to nearly pure lead. A buddy in KY made some 330 gr. Gould HP's with pure lead, and drove them at about your velocity, and shot a small doe with it. It REALLY opened up and held together on that light resistance. Dead in tracks where she was hit. But that's deer, and soft is good on light resistance such as a deer provides. ACWW's aren't too hard nor too soft, and with the 4% tin to keep them intact while expanding and penetrating, it ought to make a darn good heavy game bullet, that'll also work on lighter game, too. When in the woods, I like to carry whatever will deal with the toughest thing I might encounter. Around here, that's only a VERY rare black bear, so rare I've never seen one here in the wild, and I've spent a LOT of time in the woods and on our waters here. The few we have tend to run along the rivers, and I usually make too much noise oohing and aahing at the fish I and my partners catch to sneak up on a bear while there. And I'm content to leave them alone if they'll just return the favor, which they're very good about here. Griz are a joker in the deck, and from what I know of them from others, I wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw a chimney by the smoke. They are well known to just be surly sometimes, and they can be VERY insistent that we leave faster than we have the ability to move in the woods, unaided.

Wolves I know less about. Was planning on an elk hunt with some close cousins once. They'd been going to CO for years, and always wanted me to go, but something always prevented it. I built a gun in .35 Whelen AI just for that hunt (and because I'd long wanted something like that), and they'd gotten old, and one by one cancelled out, so it never materialized. But griz were in the area they hunted, and I wanted a big bullet on that account. I just wanted something I felt a little more comfortable with as a "stopper." Anything can kill one, but stopping one is a bit of a horse of another color.

And just in case (though not likely), I'd practice some quick, snap shooting with it a good bit, so I'd feel confident of bullet placement, which is and always will be "king" on any animal. Just my 2 cents' worth, anyway.

[Goshawk]

Yes, Goshawk Longbows. Thanks guys, keep it coming.

[45stomp]

Velocity is not that important. Boolits hold together better if you stress them less, and will penetrate deeper. Velocity helps flatten trajectory, but for the ranges he has in mind, 1500 is plenty.

When I get time, I will show the 430 wfn I recovered from a big bull moose neck this year. 1400 fps, 40-60 WW-PB water dropped. Found just under the skin.....nose slightly mushroomed and very little weight loss. Smashed the spinal column and killed him instantly.......from very close range. For what it's worth, I am switching to a smaller meplat(65%) and heavier boolit 500 grains.......velocity will be 1300 to 1400 fps.

Darcy

[45stomp]

See you this afternoon Goshawk. I'll bring some stuff to show you.

Darcy

[45stomp]

FWIW after 1500 FPS testing has shown penetration will be reduced. That's not intuitive to us, we usually figure more is better. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

Cheers.
Darcy:)

[Tenbender]

My 45 70 groups better with a 50 50 WW to pure with a 405 gr boolit. The softer the better for me.
I'm using 45 gr. Acc 2015. In the 1600 fps range.

[white eagle]

In my 45-70's I use 25-1 for hunting
for hunting tough big teeth critters I do believe
that straight ww alloy would suffice

[Dthunter]

I cast that same bullet for awhile now. Shoots well out of a variety of 45-70's I normally shoot. It Really gives that audible "thump" when you hit the animal! Love the nose profile.

I found as recommended by others, ww+ 4% tin Air cooled works great around the 1400-1600fps range. You can go faster if you like, but this bullet will penetrate very well without over expanding at this velocity range.

[Goshawk]

Wow, I am overwhelmed. Thanks to all who responded. I guess I need to find some wheelweights and some tin. I have some pure lead from my muzzleloader. What do you do to get tin?

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Goshawk,

As you indicate being, I am also a one load/bullet for one hunting rifle person, feeing that it is very poor thinking to be switching loads/bullets in a given firearm depending on the game in question.

For that reason, I like to "optimize" the bullet load for all the game on which a given firearm may be used.

I have used a 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast, cast from an alloy of 50/50 - clip on wheel weights/lead which is water quenched as it falls from the mold.

I use this bullet as recommended by the mold maker, quenching, sizing and aging as per his recommendations. His recommendations also extended to powder and charge weight, a load which I have not bettered in spite of testing various powders and charge weights.

I will attach a before after image of the bullet which took my first 45/70 elk. NEVER expected to find one of these bullets, but that first big cow was taken with a quartering shot which took out the BIG front leg bone after which it continued on through a rib, the lungs a big and heavy paunch, guts and stopped under the hide just ahead of the off side rear ham.

I think that the nose of the bullet was lost on that big leg bone, leaving a weight of 327.9gr, but the bullet continued on for about another 30" before stopping.

Muzzle velocity 1650fps

Forget the need for expansion, that is the reason for the large meplat. Expansion with a cast bullet is always and for ever dependent on alloy and velocity. Far better to go with the well proven WFN bullet profile and if expansion happens, so be it but no big thing if it doesn't.

Of my growing pile of deer, they have all with the exception of one critter, been a bang flop.

My 3rd 45/70 elk (Aug 2016), also attached was again with the 465gr WFN at 1650fps. This one at 161yds.

All deer and elk down with one shot.

You can see the small red spot of where the bullet entered the rib cage of the pictured elk

Keep us posted as to your results!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

184771184772

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Goshawk,

No need for tin!

Lyman lists an nominal .5% of tin in typical WW.

The 465gr WFN shown in my last post is using the 50/50 - WW/lead alloy with an even lower percentage of tin.

Accurate Molds are good ones and you will not need additional tin beyond what is in standard clip on Wheel weights for good bullets.

Attached are images of bullets from various molds. The 465gr on the left is from the 50/50 alloy and a mold made by BABore ( sorry to say he no longer makes molds ) the one on the right is from one of Tom's Accurate Molds. Tom makes a good mold! The piles of bullets are shown to prove the point that added tin is not needed if your have a supply of WW.

If not, such places as Rotometals can supply good casting alloys.

CDOC

184775184776184777

[Frank V]

Goshawk,

As you indicate being, I am also a one load/bullet for one hunting rifle person, feeing that it is very poor thinking to be switching loads/bullets in a given firearm depending on the game in question.

For that reason, I like to "optimize" the bullet load for all the game on which a given firearm may be used.

I have used a 465gr Wide Flat Nose cast, cast from an alloy of 50/50 - clip on wheel weights/lead which is water quenched as it falls from the mold.

I use this bullet as recommended by the mold maker, quenching, sizing and aging as per his recommendations. His recommendations also extended to powder and charge weight, a load which I have not bettered in spite of testing various powders and charge weights.

I will attach a before after image of the bullet which took my first 45/70 elk. NEVER expected to find one of these bullets, but that first big cow was taken with a quartering shot which took out the BIG front leg bone after which it continued on through a rib, the lungs a big and heavy paunch, guts and stopped under the hide just ahead of the off side rear ham.

I think that the nose of the bullet was lost on that big leg bone, leaving a weight of 327.9gr, but the bullet continued on for about another 30" before stopping.

Muzzle velocity 1650fps

Forget the need for expansion, that is the reason for the large meplat. Expansion with a cast bullet is always and for ever dependent on alloy and velocity. Far better to go with the well proven WFN bullet profile and if expansion happens, so be it but no big thing if it doesn't.

Of my growing pile of deer, they have all with the exception of one critter, been a bang flop.

My 3rd 45/70 elk (Aug 2016), also attached was again with the 465gr WFN at 1650fps. This one at 161yds.

All deer and elk down with one shot.

You can see the small red spot of where the bullet entered the rib cage of the pictured elk

Keep us posted as to your results!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

184771184772


CDOC has a lot of experience with cast bullet hunting. I think his advise is good!

[ChristopherO]

For Grizzly I would heavily lean on what the professional hunters in Africa use in their big 40's. It is one thing to kill a murderous beast, it is another to drop it before it kills you.

[runfiverun]

I wouldn't go as far as 4% tin but I would add some.
2% max and more like 1%.
tin adds a binding agent to the antimony and the SbSn chain is stronger and it adds a toughness to a lead alloy to help it resist shearing.
adding more tin than antimony is counterproductive as the excess will break away from the chain and try to re-bond with the free lead as the boolit cools.
there isn't enough time for it to do that and you end up with bits of tin surrounded by unalloyed soft lead.

you want the SbSn chain in an air cooled alloy to be consistent and structured.
if you are water dropping the quick cooling affect works on the antimony so a low tin alloy is best for the application.
CDOC's alloy works because the tin is in a low enough amount to act as a grain refiner, and the antimony is locked into place and disbursed throughout the alloy so it [the antimony]cannot break down under pressure as easily.
[it would normally allow the lead to flow easier under pressure but the tin matrix stops that]

[Ramjet-SS]

Having taken several elk with the 45-70 and heavyweight bullets I can tell you that you have the right idea here. The tin can be had by just buying heavy % tin solder. It gets expensive but look for deals. I actually have switched to the Accurate 460 grain GC WFN and shoot it in a number of .458 caliber rifles including a 458 SOCOM it is a total hammer and deep penetrating bullet that is highly effective on game. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-460CG-D.png Goid luck with your journey it's fun playing around with big bore rifles and heavy weight cast boolits.

[EMC45]

The last 3 deer I have killed were with a 45-70 and cast bullets. My load was the Lee 459-405 RNFP cast from air cooled clip on WWs. This is a plain base bullet and it was propelled by 15gr. Unique. It is a killer and none of them went too far. Full pass through as well.

[Norske]

Just a comment about velocity with that heavy bullet. The greater the recoil, the slower follow up shots will be. I may be chicken, but I load my 400 gr bullets, cast or jacketed, with 38.5 gr IMR 3031. It's a "factory equivalent" load according to my 44th edition (1967) Lyman manual. One aimed shot/second at 25>50 yards is very possible. Oh, for emergency power, I load my Marlin 1895 so the last 2 rounds from the magazine are Buffalo Bore. Yes, they have a wide nosed cast bullet load. I can shoot 3 shot groups with BB, but 5 shot groups open up a lot because I flinch.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

When I first began to load for the 45/70, I was laboring under the years long habits developed with typical high velocity center fires and jacketed bullets.

BAD direction to take with cast bullets and the great 45/70!

First hunting bullet I worked to develop loads for was a LBT (Lead Bullet Technology) Wide Flat Nose bullet of 355gr, with which I did a lot of testing and load development at velocities approaching 2000fps and as high as a bit over 2500fps. BIG MISTAKE!!!!!!!!!!

The first deer showed me the error of my ways as putting that 355gr WFN into a 100yd critter with a starting muzzle velocity of 2300fps left me wondering just what in the world I had turned loose on the game population. NEVER AGAIN do I want to see that size of a wound channel. NEVER!

Bone and tissue not mince as would be expected with a jacketed bullet, it was simply gone leaving a huge wound channel of about 4" all blown out of a relatively small off side hole in the hide.

The 465gr WFN at 1650fps has been ever so much better, IN SPADES! Proven on a growing pile of deer and 3 elk.

But as to recoil, the 465gr at 1650fps recoils way less then the 355gr at 2300 - 2500fps. Way Less!

It should go without saying that any 45/70 should be equipped with a good and thick recoil pad, but even with that all my load development and bench shooting is done with a sissy bag while the few shots at game are never felt.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Goshawk]

Thank you all for your replys. I will be looking for some COWW in the next 3 weeks while waiting for my mould. I am sure I can find some tin heavy solder locally also. Seems the consensus is 1%-4% tin, darn I guess I'll have to experiment with my new mould.:Fire:
As for velocity I won't be pushing these over 1500 fps. Just don't need more speed for my hunting area.

[Goshawk]

Just a comment about velocity with that heavy bullet. The greater the recoil, the slower follow up shots will be. I may be chicken, but I load my 400 gr bullets, cast or jacketed, with 38.5 gr IMR 3031. It's a "factory equivalent" load according to my 44th edition (1967) Lyman manual. One aimed shot/second at 25>50 yards is very possible. Oh, for emergency power, I load my Marlin 1895 so the last 2 rounds from the magazine are Buffalo Bore. Yes, they have a wide nosed cast bullet load. I can shoot 3 shot groups with BB, but 5 shot groups open up a lot because I flinch.
When I am not hunting and just carrying the rifle for bear protection I have some 480 grain WFN loaded to 1325 fps. This load really doesn't kick much and allows for very fast follow up shots. This is just too much fun!!

[M-Tecs]

I have only killed one really large animal with cast. For that I used 20 to 1 alloy. Performance was perfect. For deer straight COWW worked well for me.

Some good info here:

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_15_HandgunHuntingCB.htm

http://www.sixguns.com/crew/castbullet.htm

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Goshawk,

I think that the addition of tin is more of an Ol'Wives tale then anything else, and I will need to some solid tested evidence from a well know source to believe otherwise. Some folk said it was needed when in reality it was more likely a problem with their casting process and now that thought just carries on and on no matter how much validity it may or may not have.

Will gladly take very close up photographs of a series of cast bullets cast from just plain old WW, if you so request, and let you judge for your self the deficiencies in those bullets.

If you can find any clip on Wheel weights, save your money on the tin. BUT, if you must add tin, then be sure to tell your mold maker what your alloy will be.

Adding other alloys/metals to WW for a mold made to cast with WW will at times give you problems in such areas as attempting to seat gas checks. It is the dick'ins to try to seat gas checks on over sized cast bullets. Be aware that the addition of other metals to WW can change your "as cast size" when using a mold meant for the use of WW.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[45stomp]

Here's a pic of a 430 WFN cast of 40-60 WW-PB, Water Dropped .no tin added. Impact velocity approx. 1400FPS(was very close range) at this bulls neck to finish the job when a client hunter broke the lower leg with a J-word projectile. Boolit broke much bone, and ended up just under the hide on the offside. Moose necks are BIG!
Boolit retained 90% (390 grains remaining)

http://i.imgur.com/Mbe9E7h.jpg?1

http://i.imgur.com/4zzohuL.jpg

[45stomp]

Here's another moose, this is one of several I have killed with 45-70 and cast boolits. 425 grain LFN GC design, 50-50 Air cooled. 1650FPS Too soft and fast for best penetration, still dumped the bull with a high shoulder/spine hit from almost 200yards. We found the boolit in the offside shoulder muscle. Required a finisher as the shot was too high to hit lungs.

I would cast harder than this with a 425 grain.......water dropped 50-50 should be ideal.....or straight WW Air cooled.

http://i.imgur.com/K89VAnW.jpg

[45stomp]

This is the boolit I am going to for all purpose beast stomping. 500 grains, 65% meplat (.300") From Mountain molds. I like his molds better than any I have tried.......and I have tried a bunch.
I plan to run this at 1300 to 1400 FPS MAX.......with either straight WW air cooled, 50-50 water dropped, and maybe I will try 20-1 just for grins.

Darcy:)

http://i.imgur.com/AuEAiP1.png

[244ack]

I run a Accurate # 46-440A at 1700 FPS and use either a water quenched WW or Air cooled WW. Can't see the difference as they always pass completely through and they all fall down

[ChristopherO]

When I am not hunting and just carrying the rifle for bear protection I have some 480 grain WFN loaded to 1325 fps. This load really doesn't kick much and allows for very fast follow up shots. This is just too much fun!!

For deer, elk and moose I would feel quite comfortable with what you are using at those velocities but for a charging grizzly bear, no way. I've shot too many deer sized game with cast 50 caliber muzzleloader slugs, 12 gauge slugs and the like only to see the animal run off, dead on its feet but still travel a goodly piece with their hearts and / or lungs turned to jello. Those are flight animals. Grizzlies are fight animals. If a deer can run away after having the vitals trashed a grizzly can easily run at you and trash you before expiring.
I consider slow, heavy lead slugs equivalent to a broadhead, they cut a hole in the blood containers so they leak out. Certainly animals drop at the shot of these slow heavy slugs on occasion, I've seen the videos, but my personal experience shows much more just run off fast. The small doe I shot at 30 yards with the 45/70 405 grain WFN at 1,620fps ran 80 steps before piling up this past December. One lung and liver were shredded (quartering to shot). She was toast, still she ran over twice as far away as I was when pulling the trigger on her. She didn't know I was there, no adrenaline to pump her up, no anticipation of her soon demise to factor in, unlike a riled predator with teeth, claws and an attitude.

I like the idea of that massive wound channel OCDC spoke about. Maybe not for deer or elk but for the big bruins, for sure. A charging bear does not give you a broadside shot. It will be head on and fast and you must be able to break it down even faster. 1325fps in a 45 caliber bullet isn't a charging bear buster, not in my book. No way.

[Blackwater]

45Stomp, what a beautiful rifle!!! Is that a '75 Sharps? And as to the 20:1, my experience with the bigger, longer bullets is that it was a lot easier to get good bullets. WW's always gave me voids in the base. Not terribly sure why, but think it's got something to do with the shrink rate of the various alloys or my molds (Saeco #745, mostly). And I'd expect a simple binary alloy to expand and hold together very well. That can be an asset on big, tough game, and especially at moderate velocities, IMO at least. But above all else, bullet placement is king on game of any sort. A little bullet that just gets to the vitals enough to do its job will suffice IF it's put in just the right place. Stopping a grizzly, on the other hand, is a MUCH more difficult and demanding proposition. And pretty consequential if we can't or don't stop it, too.

And as to alloy, my post was based on some experiments I did long ago, and that's the results I got with my pistols. Run5's comments are based on more and more thorough experiments, so it's probably good to go with his evals, rather than mine. But that's just the results I got back then with pistols. Just put whatever you choose in the right place, and it ought to do a good job. That's kind'a reassuring when it comes to stuff that can bite back. I keep remembering the old story about the Alaskan woman who killed a big brown bear with a .22 Short. Not sure I totally believe it, but strange things happen when a bullet hits just right. The field is a puzzling and startling place sometimes. If anyone gets it all figured out, they're a lot smarter than I am!

[725]

#2
Back when we did group buys from Lee for moulds, we did one for the 460-420. Your bullet in the OP looks like a great copy. Have used that boolit for lots of game. Many of my hunting buddies use that boolit and it has garnered the nickname of the "matrix boolit". It simply switches the life force off. I generally cast 66% WW + 33% pure with a lino kicker to help fill out. Others shoot different loads, but I use 40 gr. or 3031 for top trapdoor levels of performance. That weight & profile track straight through flesh, even after breaking bones. Without chrony info, I think it's travelling at `1300 / 1400 fps. Nobody ever recovers a boolit from deer and dependably get pass through performance. I shot a very large pig, stem to stern and recovered the boolit under the skin, at the end of the ham. That was at least 3 feet of penetration through the pig. Mine cast out at 415 grains and are great all around boolits for any purpose I've run across. You've picked a very good boolit to cast.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

ChristopherO,

Let me guarantee that the 465gr Wide Flat Nose (WFN) cast bullet will take down any bear that ever walked, far better then the 355gr WFN that gave the huge wound channel.

Just a bit of research will bring to light the fact that velocities in excess of 1600 - 1700fps with cast bullets in the 45/70 begin to have diminishing returns in that penetration suffers greatly. Check out the writings of Randy Garrett and those on the Beartooth Bullets web site.

So, while a 355gr WFN with a muzzle velocity of 2300fps gave the huge wound channel on a hundred yard deer, the 465gr WFN at 1650fps wins hands down.

The WFN bullet profile is highly efficient and warp velocities are not only not needed, but detrimental in over all results.

There is no critter presently walking the American continent and most of the rest of the world to boot that the 465gr bullet at 1650fps, WELL and PROPERLY PLACED will not take care of and do so quickly.

I believe that I indicated in the post showing my "before/after" image of the 465gr Wide Flat Nose bullet that the bullet traveled about an additional 30" after taking out the big/heavy upper leg bone on the elk in which the bullet was surprisingly found. In all likely hood, that is the point at which it went from 465gr to the remaining 327.9gr as pictured.

Now suppose the 355gr would have been used for the same approximately 100yd shot, in all likelihood, the 355gr at the much higher velocity would have pretty much self destructed on that big bone causing a great deal of meat loss and destruction but even if not, had it lost the same 137.1 grains that the 465gr lost it would have been down to a weight of only 217.9gr.

In short, the huge wound channel might be dramatic, but no matter how big, it is of little good if the bullet does not continue on into the boiler room.

I have tested the 465gr into the 1900fps range, but would only go there if those velocities showed a marked improvement in group size. They don't, and I surely don't need any wound channels beyond what I am seeing with a muzzle velocity of 1650fps.

Yep, you could say I have been greatly impressed!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[white eagle]

deer run after being shot with pretty much anything that saves the meat for the hunter
lots of elephant and buffalo have been shot in Africa with 45 cal slugs
thrust them yes I would but having to face down a charging P.O'd bear would anything be big enough:Fire:

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

White Eagle,

To this point, every deer taken with my 45/70, with only one exception has been a bang/flop! D.R.T.

CDOC

[45stomp]

There is one effective way to stop a charging grizzly, and it is the only way that will work every time(unless you hit them with a mack truck or nuke bomb), and it can be summed up with three Letters. CNS, Central Nervous System. Hit that with anything reasonably powerfull, and you are golden. Ask any Alaskan guide with much brown bear experience what they shoot for if charged by one of those furred volkswagons.........
Other hits may turn the charge, but to stop them in their tracks consistently, you need to hit brain or spine.

Blackwater, there are 2 different rifles pictured above. Both of my own design and make.

Cheers,
Darcy

[M-Tecs]

there are 2 different rifles pictured above. Both of my own design and make.

Cheers,
Darcy

Very nice work.

[Goshawk]

244ack, that's a nice looking bullet, do you shoot it in a Marlin 1895?
Black water, Darcy(45 Stomp) builds those rifles. It is a true work of art, much more impressive in person than in a pic. His knives are beautiful also.
Christopher O and white eagle, truly, no rifle would seem like enough if I were actually charged by a Grizzly bear. In almost 50 years hunting in bear country I have never been threatened by a grizzly bear. The few times I saw grizzlys I turned around and walked away as quickly and quietly as I could. I did however have to shoot a charging black bear once right in my own backyard. It was springtime and he had been bothering my neighbors and when I came out of my home he was eating spilled sunflower seeds from my bird feeder. I kind of surprised him when I came around the corner of my house. Instead of running off like they usually do this bear came right for me. I ran back into the house and the bear ran around the other side of the house where I could not see him. I waited a few minutes thinking the bear would probably leave but just in case I grabbed my 35 Rem when I went out about 5 minutes later. As soon as I turned the corner there he was about 25 yards away and he charged immediately . Bears are fast. I had a round in the chamber and by the time I got the rifle up and shot off , the bear was only 10 feet from me. The 200 grain Core-Lok knocked him flat and then he jumped up and ran away. He made it about 50 yards before he piled up dead. It was very scary and I hope it never happens again. Turns out he was an old boar, mangy and snaggle toothed and probably hungry. He was pretty big, about 400 lbs. The bullet hit at the base of the throat and ended up in the rear of the guts near the pelvis.
Sorry about being so long winded but it's cold out and I am an old geezer that enjoys maybe talking too much. Thank you all for your help. Bob

[ChristopherO]

CDOC, I appreciate what you say and love your writings tremendously. Thing is, I consider a charging grizzly on par with a charging lion, hippo, elephant, etc... Killing the bear and dropping the bear immediately are two different categories, in my humble opinion. Your elk were killed well enough but even some of them didn't drop on the spot, iirc. Stomp45's recent post of deer kills in this very forum exemplifies that a massive WFN 45 slug kills them but they kept moving until blood loss convinced them to drop. I've been in bear country, Wyoming, with elk guts and bloody hands while the sun was down behind the mountain. The 180 Nosler Partitions in the 30/06 weren't all the much comfort as dark settled in. I've also seen grizzlies first hand in Montana. They are massive. If I were ever in a position to face a charging bear I don't really care of the bullet traverses from stem to stern nearly as much as will it cause it to nose dive into the dirt before said bear reaches me. A round that kills deer but lets them travel 80 yards first just isn't what I consider good bear medicine. The PH's in Africa use more than a 480 grain bullet only traveling 1380fps for a reason. That is good deer, elk, moose fodder but not so much a bear deterrent. Again, MHO.
Until I have to face this situation, though, I'll look forward to many more wonder installments of your success with our beloved cartridge.

I agree, Stomp, CNC or close enough that it is shocked into submission.

Goshawk, glad that blackie incident went in your favor. I imagine it might have been difficult lighting up a smoke afterwards with fingers shaking so badly. I suspect I'd peed down both pant legs, LOL. All the best and may your paths continue to lead you into peaceful valleys and beside still waters.

[35Whelen]

CODC has nailed it....you want penetration and bone breaking or CNC hits on a big bear. A big wound channel won't stop a charging bear. Breaking his wheels or brain/spine will do the work and you achieve that with penetration. 45-70 penetrates best at 1500 feet and below. Garrett has proven that with his penetration tests.....458 cal bullets show diminishing returns on penetration as velocity goes up. Bears are like moose...they can suck up a lot of punishment ( lead ) and not go down...but bust big bones or brains and it's lights out and staying down. Don't go light and fast....you're only going to be on the receiving end of a bears desire to hurt the one who shot him.

[tdoyka]

my little brother uses his 45-70 in 405gr fbfn which goes 1400+/-fps. he likes to use coww that is air cooled. he has shot deer only. it does a complete pass thru, thru the shoulder or right behind the shoulder.

[ChristopherO]

Garrett's tests are all fine and dandy but the big beasties on the Dark Continent are shot with 458 calibers, Win Mag, Lott, etc, and they are traveling well past 1500fps, and they penetrate and kill DRT. Is it because they are using monolithic RN bullets of 400 to 500 grains? We can do the same with hard cast boolits, too, can we not? I have a hard time thinking .458 bullets/boolits behave differently because an ocean divides us. Maybe it's the equator? Maybe the boolits need to spin left handedly instead of right handedly?
Gentlemen, I'm not trying to be a thorn in anyone's side but looking at this from too many years of a misspent youth learning and loving the way of the sporting rifle and their projectiles. If we are speaking about soft lead boolits out of a 45/70, 45/90, 45/120, using black powder velocities, then, yes, I can see where too fast can impede penetration. The boolit upsets beautifully and the unaware broadside animal expires a humane death. We are not hindered with BP velocities in our modern guns using cast boolits as hard as FMJ RN bullets guides in Africa use to ensure deeep penetration and stopping power. Ever see the pictures of those bullets after hitting and stopping a buffalo? They could be loaded and used again.
I suppose my point is that I want more stopping power than 45 caliber boolits traveling 1,620fps (which is my pet load) gives. When I shoot that I expect a dead deer, but could I assume a DRT charging bear?

[45stomp]

For the sake of discussion, consider a .22LR is a pretty fair stopping rifle for rabbits. 40grain boolit at 1200FPS 4# animal.
40grains is about .001 of the target animals weight......28,000 grains=4#

To hit the bear, let's say he weighs 600 pounds, equally hard, if velocity is the same 1200FPS, we need to have a projectile of 4200grains. :shock:

I might not be as tough as some of you guys, but I don't want anything to do with 4200 grains at 1200FPS!

So, I'll shoot loads I can handle comfortably, and count on lady luck to guide my boolit to the CNS if I end up on the receiving end of a grizzly charge.

A good friend of mine was charged by a grizz while hiking out on a sheep hunt. He's alive and well, and turned the charge with a 140grain j-word from a 7-08. They are not quite as ruggedly built as any of the pachaderms.


Darcy

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

AS I've frequently stated. Every deer I have taken with the 45/70 was dead where it stood, with the exception of one that I hit back at about the diaphragm.

If some posters are commonly or regularly seeing deer run after a hit with the 45/70 and cast bullets, my results to this date leave me only a short list of possible reasons for such results. Poor bullet placement such as I witnessed with the diaphragm hit, wrong bullet profile - round nose or very small meplat -, or velocity a bit on the slow side caused by range or possible low starting velocity.

I do not shoot to impact the structure - bone or nerve - of a critter, meaning spine/neck/head as I am a meat hunter and use, whenever possible a lung shot.

The only head shot I have ever taken was at a known 100yds and as before the deer dropped where is stood, same as when I take a lung shot with the 45/70.

I do not shoot for head/neck/spine during elk hunts for the same reason, I hunt for meat, but were I to take such a shot and considering the results seen to date (three shots three elk), it would be an immediate put down instead of my normal, less time then it takes to type this sentence.

There is no bear alive that would survive and live to fight if my 465gr WFN or similar 400gr+ cast bullet at a reasonable velocity, was put into the head/neck as has been suggested on this thread to be necessary to make a stopping hit.

I have put only one bigger critter down, and that was a buffalo with a behind the ear shot, the critter collapsing where it stood.

I shoot a single shot rifle, but I have yet to need a second shot on anything.

In some quarters there are writings about guides using the lever action 45/70 for Alaskan back up.

Well a good cast bullet will not only break a bear down, but offer a more then adequate wound channel and provide way more penetration then any jacketed soft nose bullet other then possibly a Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame.

Go back for a search and find the story about Larry Kelly of Magna-Port fame taking his .44 handgun to Alaska for a big bear hunt. A bear made an uninvited visit to their cabin early in the hunt bringing the guide and Larry to unleash the available firearms on the un-invited "guest." The bear did go down, thankfully because of the guides rifle, as during the skinning process they found Larry's jacketed bullets had mostly been stopped in the bears fat layer. Larry went on, during the hunt to take a big bear with the .44, but using good cast bullets. Why he did not have the cast bullets loaded during the bear's visit to the cabin, I have no idea, but the point is even in a .44, the cast was the best medicine.

Not saying that this was a "stopping" shot such as is needed during a bear's determined charge, but the cast bullet provided the penetration where a "J" bullet did not.

I know that we are not going to get the original question answered to everyone's satisfaction, but I do wonder if some are answering with little hands on knowledge as to the usefulness of good cast bullets at moderate velocities.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[45stomp]

I watched a friend kill a nice 4 point buck with a .375 H+H and Winchester silvertip. The bullet bored thru a 3 inch pine tree, blew a huge hole thru the chest destroying the heart and lungs, and smashed the offside shoulder knuckle. That deer did not fall on the spot, but hobbled about 10 yards and tipped over.

I have personally killed dozens of deer, a half dozen moose and upwards of 20 bears, not to mention the many game animals I have seen killed as a hunting guide. It has been my observation that unless you smash heavy bones, or impact the brain or spinal column, most game animals will travel some distance after the shot. If the shot was well placed, this range is usually relatively short.

I have also seen that it makes very little difference what you hit them with. I have personally killed deer with .303 british 180 grain, .270 Winchester 130 and 150 grain, .257roberts 120grain, 45 colt, 310 and 325 grain cast, 45-70 with 425 and 430 grain boolits of various alloys and at different velocities. If there was a difference in killing ability with lung shots between these cartridges I could not see it. Almost every lung shot deer will run, wobble, tiptoe or stumble at least a short distance before gravity takes over.

A survey of my close friends with much hunting experience reveals the same conclusion.

I am left to infer that the deer in Canada must be tougher than their southern brethren[smilie=1:


Darcy:)

[Walstr]

Wow, I am overwhelmed. Thanks to all who responded. I guess I need to find some wheelweights and some tin. I have some pure lead from my muzzleloader. What do you do to get tin?

I use Pewter, kinda trade secret...opps now it's out there. [smilie=1: I'd be glad to send you a few pewter belt buckles I picked up, to support your fine opportunity.

[244ack]

[QUOTE=Goshawk;3907359]244ack, that's a nice looking bullet, do you shoot it in a Marlin 1895?
I shoot it in both my 1895 marlins and my 1885 and 1886 Winchesters. Shot elk , moose and deer with it and it works great. H322 is the powder of choice
Bullets chamber perfect in the marlins but I have to seat them deeper in the Winchesters as they have no throat. Not an issue in the single shot but in the 1886 I trimmed the brass 20 thous to accommodate seating at the crimp groove.

[ChristopherO]

[QUOTE=45stomp

I have personally killed dozens of deer, a half dozen moose and upwards of 20 bears, not to mention the many game animals I have seen killed as a hunting guide. It has been my observation that unless you smash heavy bones, or impact the brain or spinal column, most game animals will travel some distance after the shot. If the shot was well placed, this range is usually relatively short.

I have also seen that it makes very little difference what you hit them with. I have personally killed deer with .303 british 180 grain, .270 Winchester 130 and 150 grain, .257roberts 120grain, 45 colt, 310 and 325 grain cast, 45-70 with 425 and 430 grain boolits of various alloys and at different velocities. If there was a difference in killing ability with lung shots between these cartridges I could not see it. Almost every lung shot deer will run, wobble, tiptoe or stumble at least a short distance before gravity takes over.

A survey of my close friends with much hunting experience reveals the same conclusion.

I am left to infer that the deer in Canada must be tougher than their southern brethren[smilie=1:



Darcy, This is pretty much what I have found on the various animals I've shot over the past 30 years. I would say I've averaged 2 deer per year +/- since taking up this sport in 86. Some years much more, other years only one. Nearly all with big heavy conicals from 45 and 50 caliber muzzleloaders or 12 gauge slugs. Unless a big bone or the spine was hit I expected a trail to follow. This is with hearts turned to lasagna and lungs ripped to shreds. Bang/flops were certainly not expected. Last year's season was my first with the 45/70 with the Accurate 360C-405GC boolit at 1,620 FPS. I snuck up on a bedded anterless deer from behind. Shot through the vitals was less than 20' and it was the first time I've ever seen a deer go as limp as this one did upon the shot, not counting the deer taken on the run with the 30/06 at 2,900 fps years earlier.
I'm glad others experience bang/flops as regularly as they do, I really am, this just has not been my experience, of which I've had my fair share that I've been grateful to have participated in.
By the way, I am really enjoying your posts of successful hunting pictures. Fine looking animals and appealing rifles to boot!