45 Colt,new Vaquero,250gr Berrys plated best Tier II loads

[Brokenbear]

I hear of the touted Tier II loads ...above the 12000cup Colt loads ...but not not the "Ruger Only" 32000 cuppers ..just around 20000 cup hovers the tier II for the stronger mid frame size Ruger but not the Blackhawk level of loads

But I have never seen data with pressure or a Tier II data base ....So I would appreciate directions to this elusive data base or if you have worked up loads using the above caliber,gun and bullets to build a mid pressure load approaching 1000fps I would appreciate you sharing it with me

I will adapt to any powder/primer combination ..would also like to know how your experience on roll crimping with this bullet

Thanks

Bear

[DougGuy]

Page 14: https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

Also: http://buffalobore.net/HandloaderDecJan2012.pdf

[Brokenbear]

Page 14: https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL%20246partial.pdf

Also: http://buffalobore.net/HandloaderDecJan2012.pdf

Thanks DG ..good reference ...still would like to hear from fellow reloaders/shooters who have worked up loads for the new vaquero 45 colt on the warm end of the scale ....and really like to see some pressures professionally measured

In looking at Hodgdon data for "Ruger Only" they do show a couple "starting loads" in the 23,000 range ..the question in my mind would be can these particular powders safely be dropped a grain or two to get closer to the 20,000 range (i realize that it most probably can handle the 23,000 but I would like a bit of room below the ceiling)

Bear

[DougGuy]

Don't download H110/W296 whatever you do.

The problem with the medium frame guns is that Ruger gave us a DANG FINE revolver, capable of 25kpsi in the 44 Special, and 23kpsi in the 45 Colt/45 ACP. Unfortunately, neither the 44 Special or the 45 Colt will ever have a +P load because there are too many old guns chambered in either caliber that couldn't handle much over the 14kpsi original factory smokeless powder loads of the early 20th century.

So... There exists a void in load data where this revolver would shine and be brought to it's upper level of performance, and also pressures. Brian Pearce has posted the most what we call "Tier 2" loads, and I think I posted links that have the bulk of his load data published. He used some heavier boolits/bullets than I ever will in the medium framed gun, if I want to launch anything over about 260gr, I will just use a full size Vaquero or Blackhawk, for which there is no shortage of load data regardless of what boolit you are using.

I have a medium frame Vaquero which I rechambered a 45 ACP cylinder to use 45 Schofield brass. It's basically a "45 Special" if you will. I figured if I have to clock down the 45 Colt to 45 ACP+P pressure, then why not reduce the case volume and keep higher load density, which usually will be a better performer than shooting the same boolit in a larger case. Medium frame gun, mid-range pressure curve, why not a mid-size cartridge to go with it?

So far my 45 Schofield has worked out quite nicely, I have some 150gr mouse fart loads that work good, and on the heavy end I have some 250gr LBT WFN boolits over 21.5gr H110 that leave the muzzle at 1200fps, and still maintain the 23kpsi pressure ceiling. This load is PLENTY GOOD for deer, bear, hog, and it doesn't stress the gun or the shooter like the Ruger Only loads do.

As far as load data, there is even less for 45 Schofield at 45 ACP+P pressures than there is for the 45 Colt. I developed my loads using QuickLoad which worked out pretty good. Keep digging around you will find some data that will bring you to 20kpsi, but I wouldn't look to downloading much of the Ruger Only 30kpsi data to achieve it.

[Brokenbear]

DG ....Roger that on not down loading the H110 ...so shoot a hole in this or your view on this line of thought ...Studying the Hodgdon data side by side for 45 colt low pressure vs high pressure and I think Hodgdon kind of sticks a foot in the Tier II stuff with their starting loads in the "Ruger only" section ...with a 250 grain boolit ...the high pressure (HP) loads use a jacketed bullet but they do show 2 or 3 start loads at 23,500cup and down using H4227,Longshot and Tightgroup ...

Tightgroup is the only powder that also shows up in the low pressure (LP) loads so I know it can be down loaded
I have not loaded H4227 or Longshot so I do not know if they have a bit of "down loadability" room to them
I do know that the Hodgdon data uses jacketed bullets for the HP data ...I know a cast bullet will show less pressure with more FPS

So I am fairly comfortable with the Starting Loads with Berry's plated (per Berry's site ..says use cast data) as the final top load
BUT ..I want to walk into the max numbers by downloading by 10% by weight the powder and build from there

My Magnum is a 7.5" SBH that I have taken deer antelope and elk with ...I just want this one to handle nicely a black bear, mountain lion or other vermin as I am out and about!

Bear

[DougGuy]

I know you can use 2400 for downloading the 45 Colt into the +P range even though no data exists for it. I think you can get there with TG as well, Herco is similar to Unique and would get you there as well as HS6.

If I get time let me fire up QuickLoad and run a few things and see what it says.

Do you have specific boolits in mind or looking for recommendations for those as well?

[Brokenbear]

I know you can use 2400 for downloading the 45 Colt into the +P range even though no data exists for it. I think you can get there with TG as well, Herco is similar to Unique and would get you there as well as HS6.

If I get time let me fire up QuickLoad and run a few things and see what it says.

Do you have specific boolits in mind or looking for recommendations for those as well?

living in the boonies the only thing I came up with was Berrys plated 250gr truncated .452...the Berrys site gives zero data on their bullets but do say to use cast lead data

Just looking for 20,000/21,000cup and 1000fps or close

Thanks bunch for your time n patience

Bear

[DougGuy]

I need the length of the Berry's plated bullet, and also your chosen COA. Berry's suggests 1.595" but they don't give the length measurement of their bullet.

NM, found it in their FAQs, 0.636" for that 250gr FP. What is your COA length with these?

Using Berry's OAL and COA figures, 0.636" for the boolit and 1.595" for the COA length of the assembled cartridge, QuickLoad lists the following..

The % is the amount of powder burned in a 5 1/2" barrel, QL does not take into consideration the B/C gap, and the velocities shown are probably more optimistic than the same powder charges will get you in real life, and again this is a ballistic SIMULATOR, not a loading manual! These loads listed are SUGGESTED loads by myself, based on what you want to do with the described bullet. They are not tested, but going by exeprience, none of these are going to be dangerous in the NM Vaquero. BEFORE you use any of this load data, GO to the powder mfgr's site and CHECK their published data for the powder in question and the bullet weight, compare your COA with the listed COA in the mfgr's data! DO NOT USE published data in your cartridge IF your COA is less than the powder mfgr's published COA without compensating for this reduction in case volume!


Unique *Of course, what 45 Colt load data would be without this powder?*
10.0gr (which I do not recommend and do not personally load in any 45 Colt applications, just showing it here for reference) 20,304psi 1065fps
9.5gr (which I recommend as max even for the medium framed NM Vaquero) 18,396psi 1026fps
9.0gr 16,593psi 986fps 100%
8.5gr 14,893psi 944fps 100%
8.0gr 13,294psi 901fps 100%

Herco
11.0gr 20,079psi 1075fps 99.6%
10.5gr 18,310psi 1037fps 99%
10.0gr 16,635psi 998fps 98.3%
9.5gr 15,053psi 958fps 97.2%

TiteGroup
8.0gr 20,447psi 961fps 100%
7.5gr 18,291psi 924fps 100%
7.0gr 16,248psi 886fps 100%

HS-6
13.0gr 20,969psi 1096fps 97%
12.5gr 19,328psi 1061fps 96%
12.0gr 17,774psi 1026fps 94.8%
11.5gr 16,303psi 990fps 93.5%
11.0gr 14,914psi 954fps 92%

Alliant 2400
19.0gr 20,720psi 1145fps 73.2%
18.5gr 19,353psi 1113fps 71.7%
18.0gr 18,062psi 1081fps 70.1%
17.5gr 16,843psi 1049fps 68.5%
17.0gr 15,693psi 1018fps 67%

LilGun
25.0gr 21,832psi 1218fps 72.2%
24.5gr 20.462psi 1184fps 70.4%
24.0gr 19,182psi 1152fps 68.7%
23.5gr 17,984psi 1120fps 66.9%
23.0gr 16,861psi 1088fps 65%

[Brokenbear]

DG
Your the bomb man
I will be loading exactly the Berry's specs COL 1.595 and will double check the 0.636 ....and will be working from the bottom up ...starting with the powder mfg's recommended starting loads ...and as usual I will be trimming cases to exact trim length so my crimp die has consistent crimp as well as constant case volume ...all starline cases ....plus I will look at EACH primer as it comes out of EACH chamber as I climb the ladder to my goal

I would like to give you instant feed back on the progress but I am away from my bench until spring but you can bet I will keep you posted on the progress ....thanks again!

Bear

[TMenezes]

Hey bud, dunno if you like Accurate brand gunpowder but their plus P 45 colt data was loaded from 16k psi to 20k psi up until their latest Manuel where they upped their pressure to 30k to compete with Hodgdon. You can still find their old data with an internet search or in the Lee reloading Manuel. I usued to use their data with Accurate number 7 and number 9.

It was fine an everything but settled on 13 gr of HS6 with a 250 gr rnfp as it was more accurate in my gun.

Also Alliant lists 12.9 gr as a max standard pressure load which was in ballpark power wise but my gun just didn't shoot it as accurately as I wanted for some reason.

[rintinglen]

Two loads that I have used with good results that fall into the range you are looking at.

17.5 grains 2400 with a 454-424 boolit running right under 260 grains.

12,0 grains of HS-6 with the same boolit.

The 2400 load is the better of the two in my guns, but 2400 has been hard to find, while I lucked into a couple pounds of HS-6 a while back.

[TMenezes]

12 to 13 gr of HS6 with Federal mag primers works great in my Ruger's and Smith N frame.

Also all the Accurate brand +P loading data was loaded to 20k PSI until their latest Manuel where they bumped up their pressure to compete with Hodgdon's 30k psi data. I have seen their old data on web as a downloadable PDF. It's also in the current Lee loading Manuel. Accurate number 7 and 9 work very well for that pressure. Just don't load them below their start loads and use Magnum primers. I used non Magnum primers for the number 9 powder at the starting load and had to pound out a bullet. Plus the powder had turned into a sandy gritty mess that got everywhere. I'll never do that again.

[Brokenbear]

Good info guys ...if anyone can find a link to the Accurate data up to 20,000 group loadings please post them or PM them to me me

Thanks
Bear

[DougGuy]

I got great results with HS-6 in my 45 Schofield Vaquero too, under those LBT 250gr WFNs and OWCs. Good stuff!

[jreidthompson1]

Good info guys ...if anyone can find a link to the Accurate data up to 20,000 group loadings please post them or PM them to me me

Thanks
Bear

269885

[ddixie884]

18.5gr 2400 and a 250 is Elmer Keith's old .45Colt load..........

[Walks]

Keith blew up a lot of .45 Colts

[ddixie884]

That is not true!

[Kosh75287]

Yes, he DID! If memory serves, he opted for the .429" chamber & bore because of greater wall thicknesses, and the observation that he blew up fewer .44s.
I'm a little surprised that the estimated chamber pressure for Keith's 18.5/2400/250 load is under 20 kpsi. I would have expected somewhere in the middle of 20 kpsi & 25 kpsi. I think John Taffin took it up to 21.0/2400 /250, which gave ME some seriously flattened primers though, oddly, no sticky extraction. MY upper limit is 20.0/2400/250 gr. RNFP

I agree with DOUG GUY about the 10.0/Unique/250 LFP. TOO HOT! Primers looked okay in my Redhawk, but cases stuck. I had the same problem with 11.0/Herco/250 RNFP, btw. 10.0/Herco/250 is MY upper limit. I caution .45 Colt reloaders to exceed these limits, only with extreme caution, if they must do so at all.

I've piddled around with some loads using other propellants, but MY two favorite loads in the .45 Colt are 8.0/Unique/200 RNFP or 250 RNFP (depending on what I'm doing), and 20.0/Alliant 2400/250 RNFP, for hunting with my Redhawk, or general purpose shooting in my carbine. Using Unique in .45 Colt IS, to me, as intuitive a combination as hamburgers & french fries (followed closely by Herco). There ARE more economical & cleaner-burning propellants that can be used in the .45 Colt, but since I'm almost morbidly afraid of double charges in the .45 Colt, I'll take some smoke & extra expense for the peace of mind that Unique offers me.

[littlejack]

Theres a video by Forgotten Weapons, that shows the 45 Colt saa cylinder that Elmer Keith blew up. Apparently, he ran out of the proper .454 diameter bullets, and decided to substitute a .458 bullet designed for the 45-70 or 45-90. Afterwords, he sent the cylinder in for evaluation, and explained what he had done. As the story goes, he ask where he could acquire a .454 sizer die, to size down the bigger bullets he used. This is in a documented article by Elmer Keith in 1925.
So, with that said, I dont know how many handguns Elmer actually blew up, but one for sure. Personally, I like Herco in my 45 Colt.

[ddixie884]

Keith had a weak balloon case fail with black powder and it blew the loading gate off and nearly severed his trigger finger. He later had some old cases with loose primer pockets he loaded them with semi-smokless and said he thought he had a chain fire which caused the three top chambers and the top strap to come off the revolver. He never blew up a gun with smokeless powder and the legend survives on the internet that he blew up a lot of guns. This is an untruth repeated by folks who do not know the difference and I challenge anyone reading this to offer proof in written history of same. If anyone has any proof of same just tell us what publication you can "QUOTE" as proof of same. not just the oft repeated internet legend that Elmer Keith blew up a lot of guns..............................................

That boy on forgotten weapons is mixing his stories. the .45-90 300gr bullets were used in the case head failure and more than one chamber fired during the cylinder failure. No instances involved modern smokless powder and any gun failures involving Elmer Keith and I still ask for proof of same........................

[Kosh75287]

I guess I might have been too hasty to agree, about Keith's blowing up .45s. Perhaps it's more accurate to say that he "RETIRED" a fair number of them.
What he hoped to obtain by shooting a .458" diameter projectile through a .454" bore certainly escapes me. I'M suprised that he could get the fatter projectile to even chamber in the cylinder.

[littlejack]

Decades ago, it was believed that the 45 Colt case was to thin and weak, because they would often split. Actually, the only weak part of the case was the balloon head. The real problem was that the chambers and throats were easily reamed oversize. I don't know if that was the standard procedure for chambering, but SOME chambers in SOME revolvers were oversize, and SOME chambers in SOME modern revolvers are as well. Even with all the great tools and machines they have these days, the manufacturers are still able to ream the throats of chambers either oversize or undersize. This could account for Keith being able to seat a .458 bullet in "his" 45 colt case, and be able to still chamber the round.
Fast forward to present time. I have two .41 magnum revolvers. If I shoot six rounds in my S&W model 57, the fired cases will NOT chamber in my Ruger SBH Hunter. This goes to show how much difference there is in the reaming process of different manufacturers, and different firearms even in modern times.