Adding Copper Sulphate.

[HABCAN]

Will those that KNOW and HAVE DONE IT please post............are there any poofs, spurts, eruptions, stinks, or other hazards?? Please detail your alloy formula quantities and safe methods. Enquiring minds could use the info, TYVM.

[MyFlatline]

What I have learned.

Start in a wide shallow pot, I use about 1 inch of molten lead.
Then gently sprinkle about 3/8" og CS across the top, WAIT until it has turned pure white ( no blue) before trying to stir.
AS I said WAIT until the blue is gone, the blue is moisture. I run my temps up pretty high, 8- 850, not sure on that part.
I then pour them into the small ingots that can be added to the pot, kinda like adding tin.
I personally believe that it helps create a more malitable bullet, some may disagree.184478
I like that it did not fragment in the least.

Hope that helps.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

pennies are zinc and copper plated!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I almost did that once, glad I noticed it was grainy, and I don't think copper is, so do not use it for an alloy, I have gotten a small amount of very,very fine copper wire to mix with a torch, getting it as hot as possible and dipping/swirling the wire into the lead. I got some dissolved, about an inch, but it wasn't near enough to tell.sometime in the next week or so, I am thinking of doing some smelting, and while I am doing that, hook my stick welder up, the ground to the pot (half a propane tank) then clamp a thick copper wire( 1/8 ) into the ***. and stirring it in as it melts and sparks and whatnot. will be wearing protection...lol glasses,gloves, jeans, and being ready to run! just kidding. if anyone thinks this is a horrible idea, let me know. doubt it will stop me. but I do want to hear you opinions, either way. I do value them. Travis

[Oklahoma Rebel]

oh is that not a penny in that pic? and myflatline, I like your idea better, but I would like to see a measurement result, have you thought of having some tested, it only cost 1lb of lead.?..

[runfiverun]

you need zinc in the mix for the copper to trade out with when using the sulphide method.

the other way you need tin in the mix to help the copper absorb.
about 3 times as much tin as copper.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

what about what I mentioned? even set low a welder will get the copper more than hot enough, and if I used a couple pounds of very high tin alloy do you think it would work, I think it would at least have a fair chance, I see no reason why it wouldn't, but if you know something I don't...

[KYCaster]

what about what I mentioned? even set low a welder will get the copper more than hot enough, and if I used a couple pounds of very high tin alloy do you think it would work, I think it would at least have a fair chance, I see no reason why it wouldn't, but if you know something I don't...




Are you talkin about sticking a 5000 deg. F electric arc in your melted lead?

What could possibly go wrong? :roll:

Jerry

[runfiverun]

I don't know about the electrode.
if I were to try it I would clean the rod real well and tin it.
don't touch the sides of the pot,,,,,,,, oh my god.

I got small nips of speaker wire into solution, but heard of others getting some small amounts of copper plate to go in that way.[tinning and dunking and swishing around slowly]

[B. Lumpkin]

what about what I mentioned? even set low a welder will get the copper more than hot enough, and if I used a couple pounds of very high tin alloy do you think it would work, I think it would at least have a fair chance, I see no reason why it wouldn't, but if you know something I don't...

I would recommend against doing it. However, if you do decide to do it, please put it on youtube.

[1johnlb]

I just did what was easiest for me. After reading all the endless threads of the members here on the subject. I started with 15 lbs of 45acp indoor range scrap that still had the copper jackets. Melted it down added approximately 5 lbs of acid core solder that came from the flea market that the labels were gone and didn't know the content. Kept it hot for a while trying to tin the copper, then added about 2 lbs of zinc wheel weights. Then started adding my copper sulfate slowly about 1/2 inch layer each time. Staying out of the fumes and doing this far away from everything, because of one of the more knowledgeable members statement of the fumes being potentially deadly. 3 or 4 layers is all I was able to get in before I started to notice resistance from the mixing so I stopped adding sulphate and cleaned out all the ash until I had a clean mix. Then while keeping the mixture stirred up well, I spoon filled mini muffin tins. One of the members, R5R, made a statement that lead me to believe mixture was unstable and could seperate, like oil and water, so I made sure to keep stirring while making my mini muffins for consistency. I use 1 muffin for 20lb pot of coww's and 2 for anything softer like 50/50. While my babbit will be hard to duplicate and not very scientific, it did get me in the ballgame. I don't use it in every pot but wow, what a difference when I do.

[runfiverun]

copper is a weird duck in a lead alloy.
it generally needs tin to get into the alloy, but it hangs onto the antimony once it's in there.

some is good more is worse.
.3% works well and casts nicely.
.5% works better [in the alloy] buts casts like,, well,,, like your trying to make tin foil with your spout.
heat it up and you oxidize out your tin turn it down and you freeze the spout.
finding the balance that helps and still casts well is generally in the .25-.30% range.

[popper]

Pure will only take 0.3% Cu (by weight) - as a solid! Add that % of Zn or Sn to pure and add Zepp until it won't absorb anymore. I usually do this ~ 750-800F. After the fluffy dross powder is removed ( I wear a cheap paper paint mask while doing this), stir & cook for 1/2 hr. - then into ingots. If you have Sb in the alloy, it will take more Cu. I've gone to 2% Cu, 0% Sn, 3-4% Sb and it works great but really HARD boolits - left dents in a bar of superhard from roto.
Control the % Sn or Zn for the SOLID alloy and you control the Cu. Cu is replaced 1:1 on an atomic basis.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

when you are welding, what is the end of the stick sitting in, a puddle of molten metal, so I don't see the difference, im not talking about a electric pot, but a small pot of tin rich lead taken off the burner and away from itt then hooking it up.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

just a thought, im not sure ccopper would add enough positive elements such as strength or malleability to be worth it. that did remind me that I need propane to smelt some co's and mix some alloy

[KYCaster]

when you are welding, what is the end of the stick sitting in, a puddle of molten metal, so I don't see the difference, im not talking about a electric pot, but a small pot of tin rich lead taken off the burner and away from itt then hooking it up.



Google "vapor pressure of lead".

Jerry

[762sultan]

I have followed Popper on several over threads about this very subject and have found his insights into this subject to be right on! Using his advise I have made Cu alloy that has produced beautiful and well filled out boolits. I have pounded some flat on an anvil without them shattering or cracking on the edges. That makes me believe that they won't shatter on impact with bone. It is my favorite handgun alloy in 44 mag, 45 colt, and 480 Ruger.

[runfiverun]

Popper did some very good research when this got brought up again a couple of years back and does have a good handle on the subject.
we do have a sticky on the subject, it was the offshoot of another thread that has been buried in time now but should be found with a search, Badger EDD was the O.P. airc.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

where do you get copper sulfate? is it a soil amendment??

[popper]

Zepp root killer. Finally getting to the bottom of my can, after several years. ~$12.

[Someudername]

HABCAN, my buddy, I'll convert the copper sulfate pentahydrate into anhydrous copper sulfate, in small batches as you need it.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

oh ok

[MyFlatline]

oh is that not a penny in that pic? and myflatline, I like your idea better, but I would like to see a measurement result, have you thought of having some tested, it only cost 1lb of lead.?..
Not a penny, flattened bullet.
No, I have never considered spending the extra money. My uneducated guess on "malability" is , if I can smash it flat, with no fragmentation, then it should do well holding together for hunting. I may be well off base, but IMO it is working for me.

[MyFlatline]

Not sure about the absorption but can definitely see a yellow tint in the mix.

I followed Popper and others for quite a spell, wanted a softer alloy but wanted it to stay together. I decided on this and powder coating, both are working for me

[Oklahoma Rebel]

what about fill-in, in the molds, does copper make a difference?

[1johnlb]

I have to run my pot hotter, probably 50 to 100 degree hotter on the pot. It's already been stated if you don't your bottom pour spout freezes up. Same with my molds they have to be hotter or it freezes when it hits the spru plate.


runfiverun

copper is a weird duck in a lead alloy.
it generally needs tin to get into the alloy, but it hangs onto the antimony once it's in there.

some is good more is worse.
.3% works well and casts nicely.
.5% works better [in the alloy] buts casts like,, well,,, like your trying to make tin foil with your spout.
heat it up and you oxidize out your tin turn it down and you freeze the spout.
finding the balance that helps and still casts well is generally in the .25-.30% range.



Like R5R said, your babbit will make the difference.

So to answer your question, yes it does make fill in tougher, but for me a little more tin and heat and problem solved.

[MyFlatline]

Yep, what John said. I keep a long handled lighter close to help the spout freeze at times. New pictures....184616
I truly think it works.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ii found an article here somewere written by a guy that used a tig welder to add copper to lead./ I guess he basically did just like you would welding, but used a copper wire, and I don't think he ran it too hot. he did it on ingots, moving quickly to avoid melting in too much copper in one spot. if that happened he said it would just float to the top like a clump. so I am going to try that today, and we will see how it turns out. don't worry, I have all the protective gear necessary!

[popper]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further/page26 See #502,504,505. All cast & shot fine. The WD ones were harder to push through the sizer. Don't have a BHN tester, they scratched with fingernail. I can send the flattened one to somebody to get XRF - no place here that will do it. This was just an experiment, I'll cast some 165 for the 40 & 170, 185 for the 30/30 to try.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

well it worked, I used a stick welder to add copper to lead alloy. first I melted about 6-7 lbs(what I had in my lee4-20) of lyman #2, once molten and good and hot I poured it into a stainless breadpan, I already had the welder ready with 4 thick 18"peices of wire (prob 12g), one in the ***. clamp. I hooked the neg.clamp to the pan and basically acted like I was welding the surface of the pool, stirring occasionally since it seemed to work best on a clear spot. I did have to turn the welder up a little (to 150) more then I do for most projects, but then again I never weld thick metal or anything. I just kept welding until the alloy hardened, I was able to get all 4 pieces of wire in it. it is definetly harder, of the top of my head I would guess the block is now .5-.75% . when I use it I will add a little pure. just thought id let you know. oh, by the way, there was no more popping or sparks flying than any other time I welded normally. Travis

[1johnlb]

I'd like to hear and see how it cast and shoots.

[Bama]

I learned a little on adding copper for HV rifle bullets this week. I got my stacks of WW and some previously hardened mixed up. ended up with WW, one bar of tin (pewter) and six large tablespoons of copper sulfate at 25.3% matalic copper. Cast the full 20 lb pot in 170 gr 30 cal bullets. before realizing how soft they were. they had cast well with few rejects. all had a light frost color. Pulled 30 and added gas checks and powder coated with Smokes JD Green. Using IMR 4895 set 15 at 40 gr and 15 at 41 gr. Highest velocity was 2790fpc. Accuracy was outstanding. The addition of copper seems to make even a soft aloy work in a HV rifle

[Oklahoma Rebel]

huh, interesting, can you explain what alloys you started with and what you did to them a bit better, I'm all ears, very interested in this subject,so far I think the welding method I used was the best but I think I added like 1% instead of .5, but I am going to throw that 10lb (or so) brick in when I mix my next batch of lyman 2, which, after throwing whats left of my current batch in for uniformity, will probably be 100lbs+.then I will bring the whole alloy to .5%, because that brick will only make it .01% so after doing that I believe it will be a good shooting alloy, and will most likely save me from having to heat treat. but we will see. I will continue updating as I go. how fast or slow it goes deepends on when I can scrounge up the money. have a good day! Travis

[popper]

Kinda made this stuff accidentally, IMO it's close to pure with a tad Cu. Shot 165gr. with 5gr. 231 @ 25 yds (near max for jacketed), 2x of BLL, from an XD 40 yesterday. Don't knock the 'group', I see only one front sight with my glasses on. 1 rnd jammed (setback from the ramp but IMO it was due to BLL or poor neck tension) but the rest feed fine. I was sizing some rifle boolits of the same alloy and got a very thin 'strip' from the leaded up sizer. I can bend it repeatedly without breaking (bent it 12 times in one spot and still didn't fail), about the thickness of Al foil. Anyway, no signs of tipping or leading plus comparison of isocore hitek coated shows my shooting was the culprit. Also tried it in the 30/30 GC helped a lot.
186143186144
Edit: Been casting for several years, always looking for harder alloy. Never knew you could run 40 & 30/30 hard with really soft alloy. Think I'll use some new GCs (vs recycled ones) & 2400 in the 30/30. 1600 fps for 185gr & soft should be a good pig load.

[BUCKEYE BANDIT]

I love reading these threads but for some reason I always get a headache :confused: . All of this is WAY above my pay grade and ability,but I keep reading anyway.
Thanks for letting me hang around !!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

glad to have ya, still haven't shot my alloy yet, waiting to get some more materials for my next batch, but I might break a small chuck of that copper alloy and throw it in my melter when I cast more bullets, I wont know exactly how much by % copper would be in it, but I will steer towards a lot less is more. i'll let y'all know how it goes

[popper]

Kinda made this stuff accidentally Actually wanted to experiment with a Sb/Cu/Zn alloy but ended with this. When the weather warms I'll try just the pure/Cu and see if it is the same. Second part of the experiment is to see if Pb/Cu heat treats - it seems like it does. If tests work , I can mix malleable alloy from near pure to over 36 BHN, cheaply. Got another can of Zep yesterday, ran out after 3 yrs. ~2x the cost of HF PC/boolit.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

well I am fixing to cast some copper alloy boolits, I took 2 1 inch square chunks of my copper alloy block, (like 5%) and am adding it to an almost full 4-20 lee pot. I tthink that should be about right,i am going to size/check them at .313( for an sks) then lube them with a 314 die in a lyman 45. not sure if I will heat treat yet, that's why I am sizing first and then lubing. I will smash a boolit with a hammer and see how the metal reacts before I thorw them all in the oven. pretty excited to see how this works, plus I am using my new lee 312-185-1r for the first time too. so I will let you guys know! I wish I knew how to post photos, if I can figure out how to I definetly will. till next time, be safe! Travis

[Oklahoma Rebel]

well, I cast about 200 boolits, it took a while to get going, but I think that was more the new lee mold than the alloy, I think I got a little wax in one of the cavities while lubing the sprue plate and pins. but soon I was humming along, had my lee 4-20 set at 7 1/2 an it was giving me good frosted bootlits. a few didn't fill out at the top ( gas check area,) but other than that seemed to go good. now I am just going to wait a few days and see how it hardens up, though I might check/size them tonight, atleast some. I am eager to try these boolits out in the sks. to be continued...... Travis

[Oklahoma Rebel]

got done in time to load one cartridge up, lol, shot a 1 gallon cranberryjuice bottle, it was quite impressive, tomorrow I will dig up the boolit if I can find it and hopefully post a pic, I don't expect spectacular mushrooming or anything, it was a starting load, barely ejected the case, but I do think that I love this boolit, and within the week will have a load perfected and be on the curly tails of some wild hogs.the length of the boolit is perfect to crimp on the rib right behind the crimp groove ( hope you understand what I mean, might be hard to picture). I used a lee FCD, which I almost always do. do you guys know if SKS's usually have a front sight adjustment tool in the kit that's in the stock? I would like to adjust it once I get my load dialed in so that I don't have to put the rear sight at 2-300, because that's not as fine- tunable. thanks for listening. will keep you guys updated on my loads/hunting, and the next 100lb batch of lyman#2 that I am going to make,and it will have maybe 1% copper in it. I just have to save for a block of rotos 70pb/30sb 5lb brick, I have everything else! stay tuned...Travis in oklahoma

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yup, shoots fine, expands well, and casts ok too, I did have some slight problems casting, but it was a maiden cast for a new mold, I am sure it was the problem, and it was only one of every 15-20 boolits

[popper]

Well, learned something today. Cast a bunch with Cu'd rifle alloy I just made using Zn vs the normal Sn I use. Cleaned the oatmeal off the top and still got 80% rejects. Put the oatmeal back in and Zep'd it again. Mush! Lots of it. Solution - it is the higher melt temp of Zn that holds the converted Zn powder. Solution - remove most of the mush, Zep the pot, - powder appears - remove. Add more mush & repeat. Note - if adding Zn for the conversion for a given % Cu, Zn weighs 1/2 Sn & Cu. Zn & Sn are replaced 1:1 but Zn weighs more. Did a test cast (725-735F) & zero rejects this time. I obviously didn't calc. my Zn correctly.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

only way to get rid of zinc that I know of is sulfer, read the sticky above all the other threads

[Oklahoma Rebel]

the boolits shoot just fine, and while pretty hard, the mushroom in the semi-soft dirt behind my target like a commercial boolit. its pretty cool. I think I am hooked on copper!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

so why are people using zinc now? I have always heard to never get It into your alloy because it gives it too much surface tension and wont fill out the mold. I noticed people mentioning zinc when they are talking about adding copper. I have added copper to my lyman#2 ( a bit too much actually) but it was only 6-7lbs, but anyways, I didn't even think about adding zinc. the very thought scares me!

[popper]

Zn is cheaper than Sn. Zep replaces it with Cu. Sulfur stinks but will harden alloy and remove Zn. No welder needed.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

oh, ok, me -i'll stick with the welder, it is safe ( I know as I was the guenea pig) and doesn't involve nearly as many steps. step one, melt alloy that has tin in it, step two, weld a weighed amount of copper wire into the alloy ( which has been poured into a stainless steel container, not your lee pot!) using thick 1 strand wire works best.

[Kitika]

If you are actually melting the copper into the lead by using the welder does it actually replace the tin like the chemical swap of using copper sulphate? I would think that the molten copper would distribute itself and alloy itself instead of needing to swap with the tin but I'm no chemist/metallurgist! I haven't tried either method yet but would like to in the near future but I'm short on tin and my scrap is near pure roof sheets that I'd like to harden up.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

to be honest, im not sure, but we are talking like .5%-.6% copper, so I wouldn't think I would miss the tin that much, but if someone really knows his stuff I would love to know if it is still replacing tin when I do it my way. im always curious and eager to learn new stuff., ps I am going to try the copper sulfate method with a small batch. cant knock it till you try it!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

oh, by the way you will only see a little change in hardness at first, but give it two weeks and it is way harder, and I think it continues to harden to maybe 30 days after alloying/casting

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I finally got some zep and tried it on about 15lbs of #2 alloy. super easy, I used 1 12ga shotgun shell full for an almost full lee 20lb bottom pour pot, now, when I do a 100-120lb batch, I will stick with the welder, because its easy to weigh the wire and know exactly how much I am putting in. its slower but oh well. as far as adding to some alloy in my melter, the zep is great!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

Popper,so you said that using the zepp method, that it needs zinc in the mix first? I did a small batch without using zink and it worked, what did it replace? the tin or the antimony. soon I will be doing 2 60lb batches of my lyman #2 + .5ish copper.should I throw a couple sinc WW's in each batch, or add a bit more tin. I have some solder ( unknown) maybe 1lb that I can spare, I have a few lbs of pure tin for adding to alloys so I don't really need it. as far as the sepp I will add a little more than 1/4lb which will be .5% (1/4lb=.41%). thanks

[popper]

Replaces the tin, mixes with the Sb.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

after hearing you talk about making oatmeal, I might just let it replace the tin, and add some of it before I mix the zepp in. I don't know if that is what caused your problem or not, I cant think of anything else except the temp being to low or you having like 10% copper in your mix. but you don't strike me as being that dumb. so I have no idea, I learned most of what I know about adding copper from you, good luck and let me know how it goes. p.s. are you going to maybe send a sample to bne to see if that might give us any clues as to whats going on with your alloy? keep us informed and have a good'un, Travis

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ok, I re-read your post, I must have missed some of it. I see you know that it was too much zinc,. and you were able to salvage some. are you going to try tto save the stuff you skimmed off if there's enough of it?

[gundownunder]

OK, I'm no rocket scientist so all this stuff makes my head hurt.
I am curious though, so wouldn't mind somebody converting all the mumbo- jumbo into plain and simple English for me
I use coww + 2% tin for all my bullets.
When I make my alloy of coww + tin I use 22 pounds of coww and .44 pounds of tin, if I then added copper sulphate to the mix how much C.S would I need to use and how much harder will my bullets be.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

maybe 2 ounces or so, put a bit extra tin in there first, you only need .2-.3%

[Willbird]

I have quite a stash of indoor range scrap. There are a lot of pulverized gilding metal jackets mixed in with it. I cannot help but think that with the 95% copper and 5% Zinc composition of gilding metal that some copper ends up in smelt that uses range scrap like that ??

Bill

[Traffer]

I almost did that once, glad I noticed it was grainy, and I don't think copper is, so do not use it for an alloy, I have gotten a small amount of very,very fine copper wire to mix with a torch, getting it as hot as possible and dipping/swirling the wire into the lead. I got some dissolved, about an inch, but it wasn't near enough to tell.sometime in the next week or so, I am thinking of doing some smelting, and while I am doing that, hook my stick welder up, the ground to the pot (half a propane tank) then clamp a thick copper wire( 1/8 ) into the ***. and stirring it in as it melts and sparks and whatnot. will be wearing protection...lol glasses,gloves, jeans, and being ready to run! just kidding. if anyone thinks this is a horrible idea, let me know. doubt it will stop me. but I do want to hear you opinions, either way. I do value them. Travis

Sounds like a great idea to me. Please let us know how it works out. I might add that you may eventually devise some kind of flux for the copper rod just like the flux on a stick welding rod. If a person could come up with a formula for flux for copper to smelt into lead that way it would be a BIG deal to reloading.
I wonder if anyone has experimented with higher concentrations of copper/lead alloy for boolet making.

[CLAYPOOL]

The Copper Sulfate I have used was to put in ponds, ETC> to kill water weeds and clear the water. Crystals in a sack. Drag around the pond with a both as it dissolves..?? Blue green looking. kills roots in sewers also.

[CLAYPOOL]

BOAT sorry about that..

[HI-TEK]

The Copper Sulfate I have used was to put in ponds, ETC> to kill water weeds and clear the water. Crystals in a sack. Drag around the pond with a boat as it dissolves..?? Blue green looking. kills roots in sewers also.

Are you aware, that solubilised Copper placed into ponds also kill fish. Fish are extremely sensitive to Copper, and if I recall correctly, Copper kills fish in parts per million.

[HI-TEK]

Sounds like a great idea to me. Please let us know how it works out. I might add that you may eventually devise some kind of flux for the copper rod just like the flux on a stick welding rod. If a person could come up with a formula for flux for copper to smelt into lead that way it would be a BIG deal to reloading.
I wonder if anyone has experimented with higher concentrations of copper/lead alloy for boolet making.

I have heard of guys using Copper MIG wire being introduced into molten Lead like if he was welding. Steel melting pot is Earth, and copper wire aimed/welded into molten Lead shielded by MIG gas. They control weight ratio by weighing Lead prior to treatment and then weighing remaining Copper wire after Coppering the Lead. You have to be very careful of spatter from molten Lead.

[MyFlatline]

Are you aware, that solubilised Copper placed into ponds also kill fish. Fish are extremely sensitive to Copper, and if I recall correctly, Copper kills fish in parts per million.

Has been used here in Florida for years for weed control in the rivers and lakes and the fish are still swimming.

[HI-TEK]

Has been used here in Florida for years for weed control in the rivers and lakes and the fish are still swimming.

Thanks for quick reply.
I am really surprised. Many years ago, I had been advised by aquarium/pond fish supplier that I cant use Copper piping for water recirculation for pond aeration, as Copper corrosion traces will dissolve into the water and kill the fish.
I can only think that water in that river may be more alkaline than what we have which can precipitate out the Copper that is then absorbed by the weeds from settled sludge.
I don't really know this phenomena works or why Copper kills plants.
We have a root killing chemical here that contains Copper Sulphate, but that ends up mainly in Sewer waste and is not sent into waterways until after it is treated.

Just searched the web.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3797326/
this site is where they publish results of toxicity of Copper on fish, apparently, and if I read this report correctly, about 2.5 parts per million Copper can cause fish kill in 96 hours. They also quote, that a 50% fish kill is achieved with 2.31 parts per million.
There seems to be many similar reports available on the web.
With waterways, effective dilution keeping Copper levels well below fish toxicity but being lethal to plants/Algae may be achieved.
My question is, how can the stuff be diluted adequately before adding it to the river/stream?
At entry point, the Copper levels may be very high, and the stuff moving through waterway is subsequently diluted.

Did more research. On this government site they quote figures for Catfish 50% mortality at Copper levels of 1.7 parts per million.
They quote Copper levels tolerances for other species of fish, but the results seem to agree/correlate with the other site I visited.
Other site is
http://www.isws.uiuc.edu/pubdoc/C/ISWSC-131.pdf

[woodbutcher]

:-) Most interesting thread.Think I`ll saddle up and go along for the ride.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[bstone5]

OK
How many new pennies need to be added to a 20 pound pot of lead for the copper sulfate to go into solution for .2 percent copper added to mixture.

[HI-TEK]

OK
How many new pennies need to be added to a 20 pound pot of lead for the copper sulfate to go into solution for .2 percent copper added to mixture.

bstone5
It is most difficult to melt in Copper metal by simply placing it into molten Lead.
The melting point/solubility of the coin is much too high. To get some mixing into Molten Lead, you need temperatures for the Lead to reach around 800C . This is very bad for user as you get huge volumes of Lead vapour. I would not recommend it.

[dondiego]

OK
How many new pennies need to be added to a 20 pound pot of lead for the copper sulfate to go into solution for .2 percent copper added to mixture.

Remember, new pennies are thinly copper coated ZINC discs! Don't put zinc in your melt. Pennies minted prior to 1982 are what you want.

[popper]

^^^ totally WRONG. You add Zn or Sn to exchange for Cu in the Zep.

[dondiego]

^^^ totally WRONG. You add Zn or Sn to exchange for Cu in the Zep.


I don't do either so I can't be wrong, but I guarantee you that pennies made after 1982 are zinc, so if that is what you need then go for it. I can't understand why anyone would bother. I also know that I don't want zinc in my mix.

[Traffer]

I don't do either so I can't be wrong, but I guarantee you that pennies made after 1982 are zinc, so if that is what you need then go for it. I can't understand why anyone would bother. I also know that I don't want zinc in my mix.

It may help to read up on what is going on here. There has been a long discussion on how zinc can be added and that can be replaced by copper because of how the chemical bonds of this particular alloy work. So yes, you definitely want to introduce zinc to eventually get copper into your lead...With a particular technique.

[HI-TEK]

It may help to read up on what is going on here. There has been a long discussion on how zinc can be added and that can be replaced by copper because of how the chemical bonds of this particular alloy work. So yes, you definitely want to introduce zinc to eventually get copper into your lead...With a particular technique.

How are you doing Traffer,
I think that it is the other way around, Zinc displaces Copper and Zinc dissolves.
If you put Zinc into alloy containing Copper, the Zinc will displace the Copper, not the other way.

[bstone5]

I have been putting 5 new pennies in a 20 pound pot of lead and then putting the copper sulfate on top of the melted lead. After the copper sulphate turns white I mix the lead.
After a little mixing, let the lead settle for a while and then shim the residue off the top of the lead.
I flux with bees wax, mix and clean the top,of the lead again.
The bullets cast with the copper added will get hard in a few days.
I cast a 117 grain 30 caliber bullet for the M1 Carbine the bullets are powder coated and a home made gas check is installed.
The 30 caliber bullets with the coppe shoot very well in the carbine.

My previous question with regard to the number of pennies was to see if 5 were enough or not enough. Five seems to work well but is five too many or to few.

[HI-TEK]

I have been putting 5 new pennies in a 20 pound pot of lead and then putting the copper sulfate on top of the melted lead. After the copper sulphate turns white I mix the lead.
After a little mixing, let the lead settle for a while and then shim the residue off the top of the lead.




Copper Sulphate contains Water, and crystals are generally Blue. When you place this onto molten alloy, the water is evaporated, and the residue becomes white.

[Traffer]

How are you doing Traffer,
I think that it is the other way around, Zinc displaces Copper and Zinc dissolves.
If you put Zinc into alloy containing Copper, the Zinc will displace the Copper, not the other way.
It wouldn't be the first time I got it backwards. A lot of stuff here is beyond my simple (deteriorating) mind. Ugh, now I have to go back and read it more earnestly. And I hate to read that way.

[dondiego]

It may help to read up on what is going on here. There has been a long discussion on how zinc can be added and that can be replaced by copper because of how the chemical bonds of this particular alloy work. So yes, you definitely want to introduce zinc to eventually get copper into your lead...With a particular technique.

Yes, see that now. I didn't read enough.

[Retumbo]

Hmm maybe this alloy will come in handy...

Pb = 0%
Sb = 3.9%
Sn = 90.1%
Cu = 6.0%

My friend dropped off a 10 lb ingot.

[Traffer]

Hmm maybe this alloy will come in handy...

Pb = 0%
Sb = 3.9%
Sn = 90.1%
Cu = 6.0%

My friend dropped off a 10 lb ingot.

Very nice indeed. A pinch of that should get you there.

[HI-TEK]

Hmm maybe this alloy will come in handy...

Pb = 0%
Sb = 3.9%
Sn = 90.1%
Cu = 6.0%

My friend dropped off a 10 lb ingot.

That is a great alloy to get. You must have great friend.

[autopilotmp]

Okay gave it a shot today.
12# pure on
3 newer pennies cut in half
Melted it all up then added 4 tbsp zep (1tbsp at a time)
Scraped and skimmed the crud
Fluxed well
Added 12# coww
Stired and fluxes with saw dust and wax
Poured into ingots

Emptied my Lee pot and filled with this new mix
Added 3" solder
Cast some air cooled and water dropped from a noe brass 5 cavity 225-70 mold for my Ar.
Ran the pot at 750°
First time with this mold and things went well.

[JBinMN]

I am a bit confused about the "pennies" deal. If the pennies are coated with copper & copper melts at close to 2000F, how is anyone getting the copper in the pennies to melt & disperse into their alloy mix at temps around 700-800F. ?

I "get" the copper sulphate stuff being added, but the pennies still have me wondering. They melt? I figured they would just sit on the bottom of the pot...

[Rcmaveric]

Pennies are just for the zinc content. That copperish coating isn't much more than plating. So its super thin. I don't like handling new pennies. They feel like fake kid toy money. Most people cut the pennies to help them melt into the alloy. Once the zinc melts it most likely dissolves the copper plating like spit on candy. There are a few different metals that zinc will eroded/dissolve once molten. Molten zinc will dissolve allumium and steel once molten. Like sugar in your hot tea. This is just a hopthesys at the moment. Someone melt a penny and see what happens. I have been toying with the idea of adding copper to my alloy via this method. Need to find me some root killer. Don't quite understand the math ratio yet.

If i under stand this correctly Tin is a one for one swap with Copper, but copper is a one for two swap with zinc? So if i have 20lbs of lead and i want to make an alloy of .3% copper. .3% is equal to .003 which makes .3% of 20lbs is about .9oz. So would that mean i need to add either .9 oz of tin or 1.8 oz of zinc to sacrifice for copper to get the desire .3% ?

[JBinMN]

Thanks for helping me to understand about the pennies.
:)

I think I understand about that the zinc helps get the copper dissolved into the alloy instead of it melting. At least that is how I understood what ya posted...

I don't think I want any zinc in my alloy mix. Unless there is some contaminant wise in the COWW/SOWW I use with the pure lead & tin right now... Not wanting to add any ...I think I prefer to keep it out.

I will just continue to read about this. I do not intend to try until I know a lot more than what I have read so far.

Thanks again!
:)

[Traffer]

I am curious as to how the big alloy companies (smelters) put 3 or 4 percent of copper in a tin/lead alloy? Anyone know?

[popper]

JB - works the same with tin too. But tin is more $$.

[JBinMN]

JB - works the same with tin too. But tin is more $$.

Thnx!
:)