Leading with PCed boolits

[Javater]

I have loaded 3.8gr of HP38, COAL of 1.03 and powder coated, sized to .358. They shoot great and accurate but i am getting leading from the middle to the muzzle.
Do i need to reduce the charge or more? since its fast burning powder? maybe switch to slower powder?
2 guns(Shield slugged out .357 and PT111 G2 slugged out.358)
I have read i should be .001 to .002 over the bore but that doesn't explain why its leading for the shield.
Also i have smashed the PCed boolit and PC stays and does not flake of break off.
i am using range scrap

[Landshark9025]

I experienced the same thing in an HK with PC, Hi-tek and traditional lubes with just range scrap and tin. Always had minor leading. Problem solved by going to a 95/3/2 alloy.

[yondering]

Are you using Harbor Freight powder coating? Or baking without a thermometer to verify temp?

I suspect the coating before anything else in a load like you describe. No way should you be seeing any lead in the bore at all if the coating is doing it's job. Either a poor quality coating or not cured correctly, could be too hot or too cold.

The other possibility is that your .358 sizer is actually sizing smaller, or your loading process is sizing the bullets smaller. Are you crimping the loaded rounds much? (If so, stop that.) Are you using a Lee FCD? Any of those could size the bullet smaller than your bore, which will allow gas cutting resulting in leading.

Also, you posted some load details but it's hard for anybody to judge that without knowing what bullet you're using. The OAL looks pretty short for most 9mm bullets.

[runfiverun]

I have seen P/C boolits come out the muzzle with no P/C on their sides.

[shoot-n-lead]

I have seen P/C boolits come out the muzzle with no P/C on their sides.

I have seen this, also...and they did not lead. Go figure...

[seppos]

Should the coat to be thicker?

S

[Javater]

Are you using Harbor Freight powder coating? Or baking without a thermometer to verify temp?

I suspect the coating before anything else in a load like you describe. No way should you be seeing any lead in the bore at all if the coating is doing it's job. Either a poor quality coating or not cured correctly, could be too hot or too cold.

The other possibility is that your .358 sizer is actually sizing smaller, or your loading process is sizing the bullets smaller. Are you crimping the loaded rounds much? (If so, stop that.) Are you using a Lee FCD? Any of those could size the bullet smaller than your bore, which will allow gas cutting resulting in leading.

Also, you posted some load details but it's hard for anybody to judge that without knowing what bullet you're using. The OAL looks pretty short for most 9mm bullets.

I used Smoke's Powder, but dont have thermometer to verify the temp. I have read that if i do the smash test it will tell me if the PC was done right. which i have mashed alot and they all stayed on the boolit.

i have measured alot of boolits they all come out .358 or .3575 and i have used without and with FCD. I seat and crimp with Lee setup and i crimp enough to remove the flair and cycle reliably.

i am using Lee Mold 356-120-TC design drops at 358 at 126gr.

[upnorthwis]

I have the same mold. Load them unsized and let the FCD do the sizing. Worked for me in the S&W M&P. You only want them sized enough to reliably enter the chamber. Plunk test works well for this. Might also remove a boolit and measure with a micrometer to check size.

[sandman228]

I pc with harbor freight red or yellow ive noticed small metallic flecks of lead on the patch when cleaning but never any lead smears in barrels .

[Phlier]

I have loaded 3.8gr of HP38, COAL of 1.03 and powder coated, sized to .358. They shoot great and accurate but i am getting leading from the middle to the muzzle.
Do i need to reduce the charge or more? since its fast burning powder? maybe switch to slower powder?
2 guns(Shield slugged out .357 and PT111 G2 slugged out.358)
I have read i should be .001 to .002 over the bore but that doesn't explain why its leading for the shield.
Also i have smashed the PCed boolit and PC stays and does not flake of break off.
i am using range scrap

That is a seriously short OAL. Are you unable to get longer rounds to feed reliably? You are four hundredths of an inch shorter than the shortest published 9mm load I've been able to find. You are in to an area where just the smallest change in powder charge can mean extremely large changes in pressures.

How did you arrive at that OAL?

[popper]

Hodgdon shows ~ 0.1" short, 3.9gr min. I've heard of shield throat problems shaving lead

[Javater]

Damn Shield wont pass plunk test if its longer then 1.032 which drives me crazy b/c my PT111 G2 can plunk test up to 1.063
that is why i try to settle on 1.03 Accuracy is great on both pistol with this setup but damn leading is driving me up the wall and back. Oh yea. Leading is found on the grooves and not on the lands, also only from halfway mark to the muzzle. I was suggested to add 45/45/10 to the PC....is this viable?

Also maybe b/c i didnt "CURE" the bullets for 2 weeks. only been 4 days.

My next option would be to load 4.2gr and hope i dont blow it up and 3.3gr and hope that i dont get a squib. Maybe try slower burning powder like WSF, Unique, Powerpistol?

[Freightman]

Sounds like you need it throated by one of our members had a 45 acp barrel never could get to feed COL so sent it to DougGuy works with longer OAL now

[Javater]

How conclusion is this quote, " Another source of leading that can be traced to the components of the load is the mismatch of the powder burn rate to pressure generated by the load. Many years ago Elmer Keith used to write about the "balance point" of a given powder; the range of pressures at which that powder delivered smooth uniform ballistics. Basically this boiled down to fast powders for light target loads (e.g. Bullseye, W231, HP-38, AA #2), medium burners for standard pressure loads (like Unique, Universal Clays, AA #5), medium slow powders for +P loads (powders like HS-7, Blue Dot, AA #7) and slow powders for full-house magnum loads (like W296, H110, 2400 and AA #9). Match the powder to the pressure curve."

And where do i find this Pressure curve for HP-38?

[Javater]

Sounds like you need it throated by one of our members had a 45 acp barrel never could get to feed COL so sent it to DougGuy works with longer OAL now

Odd thing is i can plunk the shield with 1.05 with Berry's HBFP 124gr sized to .356. but not any longer than that. maybe the design of it.

[308Jeff]

Odd thing is i can plunk the shield with 1.05 with Berry's HBFP 124gr sized to .356. but not any longer than that. maybe the design of it.

That seems like a very short chamber. I have always loaded Berry's 115 and 124gr for my XD and XDm at 1.15.

ETA - Same length for the STI Trojan as well.

[Phlier]

Yeah, you're packing a fairly fast burning powder into a tight spot. HP-38 isn't as fast burning as, say, Bullseye, but it's still fairly fast. I've been using a powder slower than HP-38 (CFE-Pistol) in 9mm with cast boolits with great results.

[Javater]

I just found out ogive on the powder coated bullets add about .003 all around compared to non-powder coated. thats why i had to seat them deeper. I might try a 1.05 "tight fit" plunks OK but will not fallout without shaking. Which i think it means is that powdercoat is touching the lands/groves before completely seated. Not sure IF COAL can affect the leading? Higher pressure would cause it?

[Phlier]

I got so wrapped around the axle about your OAL, that I just now noticed that you're using range scrap. The PC experts will probably chime in here, but I believe that straight range scrap will most likely be too soft, even for PC'd boolits. Yes, you can shoot a much softer alloy when you PC, but you still need *some* hardness.

If your load is working well except for leading, you might want to try a bit harder alloy. A slower burning powder might help, too.

[Walter Laich]

no expert here but I've used range scrap and no leading in mid load .38, .44 Sp, .45 Colt

You can purchase a oven thermometer from wally world for about $5 (in cooking section) and that will remove doubts about baking times. Kinda wondering about your temp and this is a cheap way to answer that question

may have missed it but how long are you cooking your bullets? don't think we've addressed that yet

[Javater]

no expert here but I've used range scrap and no leading in mid load .38, .44 Sp, .45 Colt

You can purchase a oven thermometer from wally world for about $5 (in cooking section) and that will remove doubts about baking times. Kinda wondering about your temp and this is a cheap way to answer that question

may have missed it but how long are you cooking your bullets? don't think we've addressed that yet

I followed Smokes direction. Pre-heat (i preheated for 10 mins just to be sure) and cook it for 20 mins on the dot. I used Laser temp gun on the casts and they are around 390-400. I do stand them up and fill which is about 250 rounds per tray (Small toaster oven i think it was 4 toaster size) cheapo. I can load them 1.05-1.06 is good plunk WITHOUT PC, but I casted and PCed 2000 rounds..

[gloob]

i have measured alot of boolits they all come out .358 or .3575
How soft is your alloy? And is that a TL groove mold?

Depending on how aggressive is your sizing die, and especially since you have to seat short to chamber in an XD, you should take care to check for CASE SWAGING of your bullets. Pull some bullets and re-measure them at the base. A softer bullet can get badly swaged down in size by an inadequately expanded 9mm case. Be sure to pull and measure at least one bullet from each of your headstamps. PC holds out longer than a nekkid cast bullet, but it will melt if undersized. Maybe the PC is why the fouling starts midbore rather than just in front of the leade; it could be that the PC gives out at this point.


If you adequately prep the cases so they aren't killing the bullet, you may find PC is just a waste of time. You can shoot with no fouling/smoke* if you get it right.

*at least with locked breech guns. Blowbacks and revos will benefit from PC for reduced smoke. IME, locked breech autos do not smoke, at all, if you get it right.

[Javater]

How soft is your alloy? And is that a TL groove mold?

Depending on how aggressive is your sizing die, and especially since you have to seat short to chamber in an XD, you should take care to check for CASE SWAGING of your bullets. Pull some bullets and re-measure them at the base. A softer bullet can get badly swaged down in size by an inadequately expanded 9mm case. Be sure to pull and measure at least one bullet from each of your headstamps. PC holds out longer than a nekkid cast bullet, but it will melt if undersized. Maybe the PC is why the fouling starts midbore rather than just in front of the leade; it could be that the PC gives out at this point.


If you adequately prep the cases so they aren't killing the bullet, you may find PC is just a waste of time. You can shoot with no fouling/smoke* if you get it right.

*at least with locked breech guns. Blowbacks and revos will benefit from PC for reduced smoke. IME, locked breech autos do not smoke, at all, if you get it right.


I use range lead + little pewter(tin)about 1-2% additional to range lead.
Its not TL design, its a traditional band grove design.
I have pulled about 40 bullets and measured them all. They pull out between .3575 and .358.
It shot very accurate, no smoke good cycle, throwing casing about 2-3 feet away. i am going to try to force 1.05 and see how it does. I know my PT111 G2 will have no problems cycling and feeding, but Shield might run into issues.

Im so fed up, i been hand depriming military ammo box filled with military 9mm brass. prob about 3k to 4k and wet tumbling them.

[gloob]

If bullets are big enough and they are still leading, I would check bore. Take jag and a patch to make a tight fit, and run it down your barrel. See if there isn't a choke point? Also, if you have significant lead fouling, try shooting out to 100 yards and see if accuracy is still good! I bet it's not.

FWIW, I am always surprised when people don't get case swaging in 9mm. Due to it being a tapered round the modern carbide size dies end up doing a number on them.. combined with the fact they are short and thick cases with very little room in some of them before the case web starts... in some cases indeed, not even enough room for a cast bullet. I have tossed some headstamped DAG, because nothing that seated deeper than a 124 grain jacketed ball would even fit at all. Well, you could load em, but haha, good luck chambering them. I suppose if you really wanted to use your FCD and shoot some really crappy ammo....

When I pulled my WW bullets from even good Win cases, they measured as little as 353 at the base. OTOH, come to think of it, the harder commercial MBC bullets didn't suffer as bad, hardly noticeable with calipers; not even enough objective evidence to even register. I would totally just shrug it off... and yet these bullets still caused lead fouling which went away with oversized expander. So in my book, if you're shooting lead out of a 9mm and you aren't using 38 caliber expander, you're doing it wrong. For me, that would be step 1 advice to anyone. It wouldn't even be an option. :)

When I went on to tackle 40SW, I never even measured a pulled bullet. In fact, I couldn't even get the bullet out of the case with a kinetic puller, unless I ran the ammo thru an FCD... so I have no idea how bad the case swaged the boolit. That's how tight it was. I just assumed the bullet was buggered to all hell, which resulted in the one shot plugged bore I experienced. And I made custom expander. Problem solved.

[B. Lumpkin]

From the description of your problem, I would say that your throat is shaving your bullets. Do you get a rind of lead built up in the chamber?

[Lloyd Smale]

if you have a rough chamber or barrel its going to strip the coating and allow leading. the same gun would probably copper foul with jacketed. My suggestion is you try fire lapping your gun and polish the chamber and ramp.

[Javater]

From the description of your problem, I would say that your throat is shaving your bullets. Do you get a rind of lead built up in the chamber?

Good Question....i need to look for that after next shoot.
I clean the hell out of the barrel and its nice and shinny inside now.

[B. Lumpkin]

Definitely look for it during your shooting session. If the throat is scraping off a ring of lead, then you should be able to see it after 15 rounds or so.

[Javater]

So i loaded up 25 rounds of 3.3gr and 25 rounds of 3.8gr COAL of 1.045-1.05 with very tight fit and shoot great and very good accuracy.
I have found that 3.8 gr had Less fouling then 3.3gr. I may try 4.3 gr and see

[Javater]

I shot 4.2gr and its swaging my primers BUT i see almost no leading after 1 dry patch after firing 15 rounds per gun.
Here is the pic of both barrels.
184545184546
Now i need to find happy medium 3.8gr leading, 4.2gr virtually no leading but primer is swaged. High pressure
I also polished the chamber with flints for 10 mins each. maybe that helped.

[Javater]

Definitely look for it during your shooting session. If the throat is scraping off a ring of lead, then you should be able to see it after 15 rounds or so.

I checked after shooting, Yes i do get a ring of lead(well more like 1/6 of a ring or less) where the casing seat into the chamber.
How do i fix it? and whats causing it?

[yondering]

I checked after shooting, Yes i do get a ring of lead(well more like 1/6 of a ring or less) where the casing seat into the chamber.
How do i fix it? and whats causing it?

Sounds like a sharp edge at the front of the chamber.

You can try burnishing the chamber by spinning a chamber brush wrapped in fine steel wool in a cordless drill; that won't hurt the barrel but might break loose a sharp machining burr if there are any. It's not an aggressive method though, and you may have to resort to firelapping or hand lapping to fix it.

Using a harder alloy helps prevent this as well, if it's not an obvious burr or rough edge in the chamber or throat. Add a little antimony to your range scrap, by adding some type metal or even some commercial cast bullets.

[B. Lumpkin]

I suspected you would find a ring of lead. below are some options to fix it:

1. Get the barrel throated (best option)
2. Change alloy
3. Change bullet profile
4. Size even smaller

[Javater]

Just found out i had no leading with thicker powdercoat. Ring i did not return. for some odd reason, but i will have to take a closer look.
fired 12 rounds in each gun and saw no leading.

[Phlier]

Just found out i had no leading with thicker powdercoat. Ring i did not return. for some odd reason, but i will have to take a closer look.
fired 12 rounds in each gun and saw no leading.

Good to hear, and glad to see you're making progress on getting it dialed in.

One other thing to consider...

I size all my 9mm's to .357. If I pull a COWW alloy boolit after loading, I'll get a bit of case swaging, in the neighborhood of .355-.3565 depending on the brass headstamp. If I use a bit harder alloy (Lyman #2, or about 15 BHN), I get little to no case swaging, the worst I've seen is .3565 from military brass. Keep in mind that I am able to seat mine long (1.125-1.130 OAL), and the deeper you seat them (as you need to for your fussy Shield), the more case swaging you'll get.

As others have mentioned, it might be a good idea to get a 38 caliber expander, and/or use a bit harder of an alloy. Especially since you're having to seat them so deep; you might be trying to throw a hot dog down a hallway.

[Javater]

I already use the 38SW expander plug. I have tons and ton of military brass now and i can get unlimited amount,which i have not used yet.
My last test had COAL of 1.05 but on the shield its doesnt fully seat without help. Should i bring it down to 1.045-1.05? I find that 3.8gr is on the high side without primer swaging. I may test more with lesser charge with double coated cats bullets. I may revisit 3.5 and 3.7gr

[243winxb]

I checked after shooting, Yes i do get a ring of lead(well more like 1/6 of a ring or less) where the casing seat into the chamber.
How do i fix it? and whats causing it?
The seating die may be removing the bell/flare from the case mouth to soon. Open the inside of the seating die.