Need it like a hole in the head, but new toy wins.

[Buckshot]

.............Got a schuetzen rifle. Sure is purty. Has a 30" heavy round barrel, chambered 32-40. Target scope blocks, but probably for some unobtanium Unertl, Lyman or Feckler I'm not about to buy! Double triggers and when set must release in fractions of an ounce. I may have to heft that up just a wee bit.

http://www.fototime.com/56A137A43BA9195/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/2BC6234D7037D74/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/6DB767A9F87A69A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/648C82EC6113C60/standard.jpg

Color casehardening is washed out a bit in places. It has an extractor but doesn't eject. I guess if you're doing scheutzen and only have that ONE case ya don't want to have to chase it!

http://www.fototime.com/E530A337B97320A/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/0935FAFD6EA2D46/standard.jpg

The PO had made the standoff rear sight base, which clamps on the rear scope block. Did a fine job but it's made out of aluminum and 'blued' with a magic marker, HA! Maybe he was saving weight?

http://www.fototime.com/E9B9AA3FE88DD38/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/BE5FF33600338A3/standard.jpg

[Buckshot]

..............A couple more...............

http://www.fototime.com/C677C55BE2EDEAA/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1DB2140B787E6FD/standard.jpg

This is really NOT supposed to be shot from a bench. I'd shot this rifle off the bench several years back and you have to sit up straight with the barrel on a 2' stack of sandbags :bigsmyl2:

http://www.fototime.com/0655D6AA8F20773/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1F1A84CB95B67B5/standard.jpg

I hope I can hold it up:bigsmyl2: it weighs as much as I do. Danged if I didn't forget to take a picture of the whole rifle. Maybe I can do that tomorrow. Oh yeah, the bore is like a mirror.

....................Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

Utterly beautiful, bud. If Marie saw the photos, she would make an offer I'm sure.

[Jon K]

Looks GREAT Rick, can't wait to see it.

You know, you could have another buttstock made for it, so you can shoot off the bench...........

Jon

[waksupi]

Great find, Rick!

[keeper89]

Need has absolutely NOTHING to do with it, brother! I would have gone for it in a heartbeat...........:twisted:

[DLCTEX]

It was good to see it had a tiny scratch on the wood so it won't hurt quiet so bad if you get another. My newest gun will be so much more useful when it finally gets that first scratch. Beautiful gun! DALE

[MT Gianni]

Wow, "sure is pretty" doesn't even come close. That is ARTWORK. Gianni

[longhorn]

Aydt system action? Beautiful rifle.

[No_1]

We are going to change your name to BATMAN cause you have "all those wonderful toys"

R.

[Jon K]

Well...........How does it shoot?..............Inquiring minds want to know.....................

Jon

[Buckshot]

.............Thanks guys, I think it's a nice rifle too. The guy I bought it from shoots commercial cast. Had no idea what the groove was and had loaded 50 rounds loaded with some170gr BB plain base cast slugs lubed with some kind of moly dip stuff and nothing else. He'd apparently fired 27 so I had 33 left to get rid of. After shooting them all off on one target (except for about 4 that missed the whole board due to the trigger surprising me) I got about a 6.5" group. I have figured out too, to NOT put my finger on the trigger until I am really ready to shoot :-)

At home I cleaned it and pulled out maybe 40 grains of lead flakes, wires, and dust over about 4 patches after using a bristle brush and Hoppe's. I then drove a Lyman 323471 lube-sized (.323") slug through the barrel and got a measurement of .313" x .320". Actually, according to my Brown & Sharps the groove appears to be .3198" to .320" miking around the slug and up and down it's length. It has 6 narrow lands and wide grooves.

I will need to find out what size boolit the chamber will accept. A fired case, checking with the dial guestimators, is a smidge over .318". The dies I got with the rifle are Lee RGB's. It will be edjumacashunal to run one up into the size die to see what it sizes to, just for fun. Probably about .316" if it's intended for a .321" slug! I'll probably have to back the sizer off several threads and partially size for now till I decide what I'm going to do.

Longhorn, yes I think you're right in it's being an Aydt (type) action. Other then '32-40' on the barrel and a small, sideways capital 'B' on the right front of the action there are no markings on it at all. I doubt the barrel is original to the action.

There is a threaded hole with nothing in it on the right front of the action, and you can see barrel threads in it. Maybe a switch barrel deal originally? There is a piece of metal dovetailed in across the top of the breechblock but I haven't tried to move it out to see what it may be for. A switchable firing pin for CF and RF? Just a guess as I really don't have a clue

................Buckshot

[Duckiller]

Looked at a double triggered 45/70 once. Clerk at the gunstore delighted in setting the second trigger and handing it (unloaded) to a customer. It was extremely difficult not to put my finger into the trigger guard at first, after 3 or 4 times I figured out that if you didn't want it to go "click" you didn't get any part of your hand near that set trigger. Somewhere I read or was told that you don't pull double set triggers but you gently tap the side of the front trigger when you want it to go bang. Saw the 45/70 just before I went on vacation several years ago and it was sold by the time I got home. Enjoy it looks like a lot of fun.

[Jon K]

Rick,

32 cal Breech Seat Boolits:Have a gander


http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/32001.jpg236g Jones Breech Seat Spitzerhttp://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/32002.jpg216g Jones Breech Seat Spitzerhttp://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/32003.jpg190g French Breech Seathttp://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/32004.jpg200g Breech Seat Semi-Spitzer
http://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/32005.jpg218g Breech Seat Semi-Spitzerhttp://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/32006.jpg190g Pope Breech Seathttp://www.pauljonesmoulds.com/32007.jpg180g German Heel Schuetzen

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Beautiful gun, Buckshot, but it isn't an Aydt. You don't have a photo of the action open, so I can't be sure, but it might be a Kettner. The exposed breech block is too long, and the action too short for an Aydt. Your breech block probably drops down, like a High Wall, Stevens 44-1/2, or Farquharson. The Aydt is a swinging block action, not a falling block. The breech block is "T" shaped, hinged on a pin in the front of the action, which is several inches long. On the left side, a "regular" Aydt, has two curved outside levers, the forward one to take the gun down, and the rear one the extractor. The "Reformed" Aydt, has an inside extractor, but still has the take down lever. An Aydt can be taken completely down without tools, the lower tang holding the whole trigger group which resembles one on a percussion rifle. Tomorrow morning, I'll take my Aydt out and shoot some photos. They're really remarkable in the way they're assembled like a Chinese puzzle.
My Aydt, like your rifle, is unmarked, and probably a "Guild Rifle" Back then, gunsmiths all belong to a guild, and apprentices to German gunsmiths, as part of their initiation, had to build a fine rifle to present to the guild for inspection, in order to be accepted as a gunsmith. These rifles were typically unmarked, and of very fine quality, since any poor ones were destroyed.

Morgan

[Lloyd Smale]

very cool!!

[Johnw...ski]

Very nice rifle, you will find that once you get the sights set up they will rival a scope at shorter ranges so a scope is really not needed.

You were also lucky enough to get it in an interesting chambering.

John

[Morgan Astorbilt]

My Aydt schuetzen rifle.


http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt1.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt2.jpg

This is a typical Aydt system Guild Schuetzen Rifle in original 8.15x46R. The differences in the action design from Rick's are obvious.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt3.jpg

These are the external takedown and extractor levers. The lever at the rear of the lower tang which resembles a double shotgun lever, releases the lower tang, which is the trigger plate, and allows the internal parts to be removed without tools. Notice also, the method of attaching the fore arm, identicle to ML rifles.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt4.jpg
The action open.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt5.jpg
The lower tang removed. Swinging the forward takedown lever downward, will
allow it to be removed,releasing the extractor lever,and breechblock retaining pin.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt6.jpg

The above parts removed.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt7.jpg
This is the block that holds the Swiss diopter rear sight. I use it with a “T” piece to lever my breech seater.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt8.jpg
This external dovetail on the octagon barrel, is used to mount a scope or a middle sight. One of the previous owners foolishly drilled and tapped it for scope blocks. I use dovetail clamp-on adapters with Unertyl blocks to hold my Balvar 24. ASSRA rules for "Original German Rifles Class", don't allow any alteration, scopes have to be attached without screws, using original fitments, or some clamping arrangement.

(More below)

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Too many photos, here's the rest of the story:-D

The small sling swivels were not there to use a sling while shooting. Shooters typically took public transportation to matches, carrying the guns on their backs, along with their shooting kits. Since these rifles were loaded by breech seating, the same case was reloaded for each shot. DWM sold bullets that were packed singly, along with a powder charge and primer. This allowed a shooter entering a match to purchase just what he needed, as if he were purchasing cartridges.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt9.jpg

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt10.jpg
The apprentice who built this rifle spared no effort to impress the guild. Every exposed metal piece is engraved, down to the last screw!

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/Aydt11.jpg
Another shot of the beautiful walnut. It never fails to amaze me, the difference in what skills it took to be called a "Gunsmith" back there and then, and here and now. Truly humbling.

Morgan

[Sig shooter]

Sweet ,,, Does it have a date ? is it a factory Haenel action . De Haas writes it was the most popular action used .

Edit --- I just viewed up a few posts for the answer.

[bullshot]

Buckshot
Very nice rifle in a great caliber. Just so you know, we on the East coast deleted the "need' word and substituted "want". Works for us.:-D Good luck with that bad boy. Hope it shoots as good as it looks.

[Frank46]

Buckshot, well if you ever thought you were on the slippery slope guess again. Ain't it wonderful. All kidding aside, beautiful rifle and I like the idea on how the previous owner used that aluminum piece to get the eyepiece closer to the eye. Have fun. Frank

[Buckshot]

................Morgan, a beautifull rifle you have there. So you shoot it breech seating? I see my 'Pusher' buddy Jon K is showing me boolits from moulds I can't afford :-) I did just order the Lyman offering and the Saeco 200 gr moulds. I didn't really need it, but just checking found out neither Graf nor Midway) had and 32-40 brass. Midway said out of stock and no backorder.

Gonna have to make one of those palmrest dealie bobs for it.

..............Buckshot

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Buckshot, Thanks, if you post a photo of yours with the action open, I'll try to figure out which action you have. 30-30 brass will work just fine. I can send you some cases made from it. I've been using the same case for years, must have loaded it thousands of times. Are you going to breech seat? I should have some tapered bullets laying around if you'd like to try them. Some lubed and some not. They're from a Hoch mold. Probably cast them ten years ago. Send me a PM.
Morgan

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Buckshot, If you don't like using .30-30 brass because it's about .010 short, you can use .38-55 brass, it's the same length as the .32-40. You can just run in through your .32-40 sizing die.
Just checked, Starline has .38-55, but they're showing two lengths, 2.082" and 2.125" I thought 2.082 was the .375Win. length, and 2.125 the .38-55 length. Don't know what's going on, I sold my .38-55 Borchardt years ago.
Anyway, Starline has the long .38-55 brass in stock, and so does Midway. Midway also has Win. .38-55 brass, which should be 2.125" I'm guessing, this was always the correct length.
Morgan

[Buckshot]

..............Morgan, I'll send you a PM about the boolits. So far as brass goes I have 50 once fired (or so I was told it was) and 100 new unfired W-W. A friend of mine knows someone with 32-40 brass but nothing to shoot it in and he said the guy should sell it reasonable, so the brass issue isn't critical whether the supposed "friend's" supply becomes available or not.

I was running a bunch of size die orders today and threw in one for me while I was at it :-) It was a push through type and was supposed to be .321". I got in a hurry and finished too close with the boring bar. It polished out nice at .322" and I ran a bunch of Lyman 210 gr 323471's up through it.

................Buckshot

[Jon K]

Rick,

Try it like it is, should be OK. Hoch makes moulds for .32 Schuetzen .322" x .314" tapered for breech seating.

[Buckshot]

Rick,

Try it like it is, should be OK. Hoch makes moulds for .32 Schuetzen .322" x .314" tapered for breech seating.

...............If I get the chance tomorrow I'll load some up to shoot Tuesday.

...............Buckshot

[EMC45]

Nice gun and nice hardwood floors Morgan!

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Buckshot, Sent you an E-mail.
Morgan

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Rick, Here are two push-style breech seaters in .32-40 cal. The short one is pushed in with the thumb, and the breech block complets the seating. In my rifle, in which I've reamed a 1-1/2º throat, it enters all but a bit less than 1/8" by hand. The radius on your breech block would probably be enough to complete the seating. The rod used is steel, a flat milled, and retained by a brass pin soldered in to the case.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/seater5.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/seater6.jpg

The long seater is actually two piece. The rear part is drilled for the reduced diameter end of the plunger, which is soldered in, and then bent.

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/seater1.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/seater4.jpg

The bullets are the same as the ones I sent you, 188gr. 20-1 lead-tin. You can try breech seating, by cutting two dowels to place in an empty case. One 1/2" from the case mouth, and the other full length. Place the bullet in the short one, seat, and then finish with the second. Will probably take some experimenting with dowel lengths. Good Luck,
Morgan

[Bigjohn]

Buckshot I understand your predicament. However, if the guilt is really paining you then just pack up the rifle and I will send you my shipping details. [smilie=1:

It looks like you have picked up a 'Pearler'; hang on to it with both hands mate just in case someone else makes you an offer.

Morgan The second seater in your posting was the one I had heard about as it starts with the boolit inside the seater and only completes the task of seating the boolit into the rifling after the case 'Headspaces' out.

It helps to protect the boolet from various injuries during the seating process at least thats the way I understand it. IMO, That type would also give you better alignment of the boolit with the bore.

Buckshot, you will have to post some of your results on the range and let us know how it goes.

Best wishes,

John.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

John, You're right, but even the short seater, subjects the bullet to less marking than a loaded round would, and with the tapered bullet, and the 1-1/2º throat, the bullet enters the bore without any damage. When seated, the front band is just land diameter, and the rear band bore diameter, the other bands engaging the rifling in progressive amounts. This positions the bullet in the throat in perfect alignment, like a tapered shank in its socket. The Hock mold was my design, made according to a Cerrosafe chamber and throat casting I sent in to Dave Farmer.
Morgan

[Bret4207]

Buck- That threaded hole might be for a palm rest?

You guys have to stop posting pics like those and Morgans. I can't keep buying keyboards when the old ones short out from the drool!!!

[trevj]

I was thinking it pretty likely that the threaded hole on the side of the action was part of an original rear sight mount. I recall reading to the effect that the Euro shooters would typically carry their sights separate from the gun, to avoid knocks and bumps in transit.

Re: the "apprentice" theory.

It doesn't seem right to me. I've heard that line before in a couple different fields, and in the end, I find it lacking.

Effectively, the total supply of well made, ornamented pieces such as these, would have to be limited at one or maybe two, per apprentice, if they were actually "apprentice pieces" or "masterpieces".

The world would have to be awash in qualified apprentice gunmakers to get a many of them to be around.

I figure it is more likely, that the guns were built to order, at the level of decoration that the customer was willing to pay for, or that there were, as in so many things, different grades of the same thing, depending on ones tastes. And finances.
The lack of marking is explained as simply that they were recognizable as to what they were, and did not need the "brand name" carved into them, as do so many of the bland and generic products of this day and age.
I find it a possibility too, that for their time, these may not have even qualified as exceptional pieces, but rather merely "good" in a time when good was what you expected to get when you paid for "good". For real money, you got gold inlays, and fine engraving in addition to the workmanship that was expected.

Regarding the engraved screws, these are not uncommon, even in fairly basic grades of hand made guns.

Makes for a good story, but not one that I would make any bets on being able to back up with research. Not to cover off the numbers of them around, in any case.

For comparison, look at the number of surviving American made fine target rifles that have survived, and the levels of hand work that have gone into them, in fitting them together, as well as in assembling "select" components, and embellisments that did nothing to make them shoot better, but added a great deal to their value as fashion statements, at the range.

I would expect a similar proportion of the rifles that were bought in Europe in that era to have survived as have done so on this side of the ocean, taking into account the histories of the two sides. They, after all, had to deal with two wars, while on this side of the ocean, the fad for "varmint" rifles saw a huge number of the high grade target guns get hot dipped, and clothed in ugly wood and white line spacers.[smilie=1:

Thanks for the stripdown on the Aydt action. Simple in the design, complicated in the details.

Cheers
Trev

[dragonrider]

Good lookin rifle Buckshot, and thanks Morgan for pics and history of yours. Beautiful.

[Buckshot]

...............I just HAD to shoot the scheutzen rifle even though I didn't have any correct boolits for it. The closest I had on hand that would work in the slim time span I had in which to load these up was a couple 8 mm designs.

http://www.fototime.com/646B73ACD38755D/standard.jpg

Both these had been lubesized @ .323" and were sitting there in the plastic slip top 22 mag RF boxes. As I had been in the process of making up lube dies orders the previous 2 days, I tossed in a Lee push through to do for myself, and made it .322", so I had that on hand.

On the left is the NLA Lyman 323471 all dressed @ 214 grs and sized to .322". On the right is a custom GB Lee 8mm mould I'd had them do a couple years back. It drops at .326" and here sized to .322", with lube & etc it weighs 244 grs. These cases were some that came in a paper bag that a buddy gave me. They're W-W headstamped but had a fairly deep cannelure rolled in for the boolit to sit on (I suspect).

As you can see on the right, the 244gr slug had to be seated just below the cannelure in order to chamber. The nose at .318" and the front band at .320" were both engraved. The Lyman boolit had the front drive band engrave. All that's great, but did I have any load data for 200+ grain slugs? Nope.

I really didn't have the time to look too far either. All I had on paper available to me went to 187 grs. Since all I wanted to be able to do was to just SHOOT the thing I loaded 30.0 grs of surp WC860. I knew it would be safe. I was pretty sure the rifle wasn't going to be able to stabilize either slug, and so it turned out.

The report was mild, recoil was nil and the bore was littered with unburned powder. I'd only loaded 5 rounds of each. The Lymans surprisingly enough put 3 of the 5 into a hole the size of a nickle. But one high and one low ended up being about 5". The holes were jelly bean shaped. The big 244gr boolits sent 2 through the paper completly sideways, and the other 3 were lozenge shaped. Group size for these ran about 6". It was a nice round group though :-)

..................Buckshot

[Cag40Navy]

So im waking up a very old thread but you have the plans for that custom GB Lee 8mm mould Buckshot??? Would like to see about a copy of it!