Mold sizing for ML

[rsvp2rip]

I'm sure this topic has been beat to death but can't seemto find the right info. Even an email to Tom @ Accurate molds has a bust. I am really interested in his 51-440B tapered bullet. My T/C Black Diamond has a .501 bore and a .510 groove. Tom said most customers order under groove size but that didn't help. How far under? There are 4 bands on the bullet. What should the sizes be for somewhat easy loading and good accuracy? I'm interested in the taper design because I may remove the QLA. Should I just go with a straight design? How much will pure lead bump up?

[johnson1942]

why dont you paperpatch? if your top of the lands diam is .501 then the wrapped bullet should be .499. get a straight mold and a reducer made by lee precision so that when you wrap with two wraps of number nine paper the diam is .499. as for me i like a barrel like yours with 5 thousands deep grooves. i had a barrel made like that once and it really shot well with ease. pp and you will more happy than any other way.

[ShooterAZ]

I would probably just order it "as drawn". Since it is a tapered design, it should work ok. I ordered a similar mold for my Lyman 54 cal, And it does require a mallet to get it started. Once started it is easily pushed home. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=51-440B-D.png

[rsvp2rip]

I'm really not interested in paper patching, and I'd like not to have to hammer the bullet in, the bullet size would matter not at all then. I'm not opposed to using the starter though. Do you think making the top band .508" would be too undersized to bump up to .510"?

[ShooterAZ]

The top driving band you want to be a tight fit. Just a couple of very light taps with a small plastic mallet is all it takes to get mine started. .508 will be too small on the top band.


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[rsvp2rip]

I suppose if I ordered it at .510" and had the tollerance at + or - .001" instead of +.002, -.000" I could always get a sizer die for the 450 to make it whatever on the top band. You don't think that it would bump up on firing an the top band would fill out if it were .002" under?

[Harleysboss]

I saw that you dont want to paper patch but you could eliminate all of your questions about band widths and bumping up etc. You already mentioned a sizing die so you would be half way there. Order a .499 sizing die a cheap lee S&W 500 mold and some paper. Watch a couple of the tutorials to get familiar and look out tiny groups and no more worries. Its easy and it works! Deer and Especially Elk hate them:)

[rsvp2rip]

Just seems like more trouble than I want to go through at this point. I'll save that for a last resort.

[Squeeze]

For most of my soft lead grease groove style, I like about .001-.0015 over bore size, and use a wad usually. Typical is .001-.002 over bore size. Obtrusion seems to fill the groove at ignition from there. This is with soft, or very pure lead. I never had as much luck going too close to full groove diameter on loading with GG style. I DO go there with jacketed and a full form die, but thats a whole different thing, and in a different style gun. (and requiring a barrel drop for the sizer) I really don't even do it there much, as I don't see the validation over smooth forming performance.

[Squeeze]

Very similar, but much more versatile is a mold from Noe. complete with pins, in both flat, and hollow base, so you can make 6 different sizes from one mold.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=43_428&products_id=3308
heres a link to the forum, with sizes and specs
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=43_428&products_id=3308

and heres mine, in the largest size, in both flat, and hollow base (I have a 2 cav, and set it up with one flat pin, and one hollow, for the largest)
184367184368 Should be exactly what you need

[idahoron]

I saw that you dont want to paper patch but you could eliminate all of your questions about band widths and bumping up etc. You already mentioned a sizing die so you would be half way there. Order a .499 sizing die a cheap lee S&W 500 mold and some paper. Watch a couple of the tutorials to get familiar and look out tiny groups and no more worries. Its easy and it works! Deer and Especially Elk hate them:)


He is looking for the easy way to get his gun to shoot. He says wrapping paper is too much bother. I will keep quiet to him about the fact that he could save time, and money paper patching. But he doesn't want to hear it so I will leave it alone.

[rsvp2rip]

Did not mean to hurt your feelings about the subject but yes I am looking for the easy way to get my gun to shoot.

[rsvp2rip]

Thanks Squeeze, I have seen that mold and thought I would get one then saw this tapered one and thought it would be a good idea. Most other people I've talked to shoot No Excuses bullets that are just like the mold you have. Now I might just flip a coin, or get both at this point. I am definitely going to be using sub bases or not cards. Thanks.

[54bore]

Did not mean to hurt your feelings about the subject but yes I am looking for the easy way to get my gun to shoot.

You gotta walk sofly around Idahoron or you risk crushing his feelings! LOLOL! You didn't hurt his feelings, i promise ya!

Best of luck to you on your search for the 'easy way'

[johnson1942]

you did not hurt our feeling but we are just trying to save you grief and the results of paperpatch is so good you would never ever go to anything else if you tried it. harely boss is 100 percent right in his advice. i talked to a shooter from iowa who is getting into paperpatch for over a hour on the phone yesterday and one thing we both realized after a while is there are those who like to try different things to get the result that paperpatch can do and all of them are much harder than paperpatching. the only system that works just as good and is as easy is a 3 inch barrel the same as yours and make a pregroover for you loading press. pregrooving a bullet or paperpatching is simple and works perfectly every time. they will make your gun boring as it will shoot holes in holes at any range you want and it will shoot better than it was ever ment to be. do what you want as all of us had to get the other stuff out of our system before we came to where we are. i also had to do a lot of different things before i came full circle to where every one else comes to. paperpatching or pregrooving a bullet.

[Squeeze]

Im still out on full forming even. I only do it in a few smokeless capable guns, and can really match the accuracy with smooth form bore sized, With much less fuss I think a lot of this also has to do with jacketed bullets, and the pressures needed for obtrusion. I do some PP also, and for sure it works great, and really is easy once you get the hang of it. I have too many guns, and guess I just like tinkering with them all. Ill shoot whatever suits the mood of the day. Or even whatever happens to be on top of the pile at the ammo bench.. :-D

[rsvp2rip]

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't you paper patch a bullet with grease grooves? Why not try to get acceptable results the first time and then size and patch if I don't?

[aspangler]

Try a traditional minie' type bullet. With it's hollow base and being under groove diameter, it loads easy and expands to groove diameter when fired. I use one in my 1-20 twist carbine with 60 gr. FFF for hole cutting holes bullet accruacy. YMMV

[rsvp2rip]

Lee's 50 Cal minie is .500 from the mold so I think it might ride up on me during hunting and I wanted something a little heavier. I'm really leaning towards the NOE mold mentioned earlier.

[johnson1942]

i dont quite under stand the question about the grease groove bullet? you can paperpatch a grease groove bullet the same way you would paperpatch a smooth sided bullet. the grease grooves dont hinder the paperpatch in any way.

[rsvp2rip]

What I mean is what is the harm in getting a grease groove bullet mold and if that doesn't seem to work, go ahead and paper patch the bullets from that mold after sizing down? I originally asked about a grease groove bullet mold and was told that the only way to get an accurate bullet was to go 180 degrees and get a smooth bullet mold and paper patch. It was just a thought that if I could get acceptable results with 1/2 to 1/4 the work, why not try that first?

Let me further clarify. If I can get 2" at 100 yards, that to me, would be a great success. I'm not taking my Black Diamond to Camp Perry. The furthest deer I ever took was at 60 paces, and this over blow downs and thick brush. I still hunt in southern Ontario mainly where shots are close. I use a 2.5x scope on my guns. I want a bullet with a lot of weight, out of pure lead that exits, yet expands, no matter the shot angle. It's hard to pick your shot when you are jumping the deer. It's challenging, and I don't certainly don't have anywhere close to a 100% success rate, but I like that way...every deer is a trophy, from the spike to the 160 inch I've shot. So, now you know what my expectations are.

[Good Cheer]

My two cents...
Boolit as heavy as your rifle will shoot accurately, .001/.002" under bore, very good quality lube, over powder card wad.
From there it should be just a matter of increasing the powder charge until the group shrinks to where you want it.

[johnson1942]

do what good cheer says, its good advice.

[rsvp2rip]

Yeah I am going to by the NOE 502-500swc. If need be I'll size it down. I'm going to be using Dick Dastardly's Pearl Lube and nitro card over Goex ffg. Thanks for the input.

[725]

Like what good cheer said. Let us know how you make out.

[Good Cheer]

If you find regular .50 molds (probably about .512 to .515) and get a tapered sizer it will probably work taking it down to .499. I know that's a lot of metal moving around but if you lube the boolit first it will probably be OK. After all, when the gun goes off you were going to make lead squirm all over the place any way.
I tried this with the Lee 450 grain in a Green Mountain .50 bore fast twist years ago and I could hit with it what I shot at. I never sat down and dialed it in at a bench rest seeing as it is a shorty carbine barrel with fixed sights.

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/Ren_zpsqrwrbwv4.jpg (http://s791.photobucket.com/user/SNARGLEFLERK/media/Ren_zpsqrwrbwv4.jpg.html)

[idahoron]

What I mean is what is the harm in getting a grease groove bullet mold and if that doesn't seem to work, go ahead and paper patch the bullets from that mold after sizing down? I originally asked about a grease groove bullet mold and was told that the only way to get an accurate bullet was to go 180 degrees and get a smooth bullet mold and paper patch. It was just a thought that if I could get acceptable results with 1/2 to 1/4 the work, why not try that first?


You didn't hurt my feelings at all. 54Bore knows me way to well.
You said.

"what is the harm in getting a grease groove bullet mold and if that doesn't seem to work, go ahead and paper patch the bullets from that mold after sizing down?"

As some have indicated you need a GG bullet that is very tight. Using one with a very large band at the top helps even more.
I have road that dragon. I bought a lot of moulds and shot a lot of bullets. I shot a lot of bullets that were in the sub 4" range. And some guys would call that good enough. They say that are shooting at 50 yards and the deer won't know a thing. I agree. If that is all you want almost any bullet will do this.

But lets say you don't like the results. Now you take a bullet that is close to bore diameter and you size it and size it and size it again. Then you paper patch it and size it again. Let me tell you some guys might get a bullet to work that way but most don't. I have found that sizing a bullet down more than .006 ends up in frustration and groups that are great one day and piss poor the next. The best bullets for paper patching are the ones that are the right diameter before the paper goes on. The sizing that comes after just presses the paper a bit to make it better to stay on while handling, and make it easier for a reload.

You said before that we can't paper patch a GG bullet.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/RCBS11mm405gr446.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/RCBS11mmgroup2.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Muzzleloaders/RCBSgroupCleanbetweenshots.jpg

Don't tell these animals that it was a GG bullet.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/Antelope%202015/Antelope%2001_zpswbmbiaew.jpg

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd294/idahoron/2013%20deer%20hunt/Deer03small_zpsf18743fd.jpg

The reason I wrote the sticky about paper patching is I wanted other guys to know that first, paper patching is not hard. Second, it is accurate. And third paper patching in a lot of cases is easier to get better results, and more consistent results.
If you want to buy moulds and do testing, the route you are going is a good one.
I had a friend that told me that Hornady was discontinuing the 410 gr 50 cal. I panicked and bought 30 boxes of bullets to be sure I had enough to hold me over. Then I went on a search to find a better bullet. I tried the 320 REAL. I tried the 400 gr Lyman plains bullet. The plains bullet sucks.
Then I read a story about the original Whitworth rifle and bullet. Then I read that guys were paper patching traditional shaped bullets for the Whitworth. That got the wheels turning Even with paper patching I ran into a couple road blocks. But there are two bullets that in my opinion are fool proof. First the Lee 500 S&W bullet. poured soft, wrapped, and sized to .501 will shoot amazing in any rifle that the twist is right and they will fit down.
Second bullet is the RCBS 11mm rifle bullet. it is .446 and with two wraps of onion skin and sized to .446 or .448 this bullet in a fast twist 45 has never failed to produce small groups and big smiles. That bullet is the one I posted above and the animals above were shot with that bullet.

I am going to leave this alone after this. We all want a rifle that shoots well. Consistence is the key to making a gun and bullet shoot well. Now if you are shooting a greaser bullet. That bullet must have a very good lube, and even then lead will be left behind after you shoot. If you shoot enough that lead keeps building. That every building layer of lead is making things in your barrel inconstant. If accuracy is the "target" then you "target" is always moving. Guys will go the the range and shoot until the gun just wont hit anything and go home to clean it. That is how a lot of us are taught. My sticky is to break this old method. You use a bullet that is patched. The patch protects the barrel from the bullet and the bullet from the barrel and gas. The only inconstancy is the powder residue. Cleaning between shots eliminates that inconstancy.

What you have left is a rifle, and load that is accurate and consistent. A rifle that shoots like that is one that builds confidence. If the shooter has confidence in the rifle and the bullet, then there is no second guessing when it comes time to shoot. The shooter knows the bullet will hit where he wants, no matter if it is a deer at 50 yards or a beer can at 100. Right Lewis!!!

[54bore]

You are VERY right Ron!!! :-D

[crappie-hunter]

No one seems to have gas checks in stock or available for the Lee 500 S&W mold,so what about shooting w/o checks or altering the mold to a plain base mold? This thread has caught my attention. Have a Bob Hoyt 1:28 twist 50 cal barrel that so far does not seem to like Sabots or lead bullets.

[54bore]

No one seems to have gas checks in stock or available for the Lee 500 S&W mold,so what about shooting w/o checks or altering the mold to a plain base mold? This thread has caught my attention. Have a Bob Hoyt 1:28 twist 50 cal barrel that so far does not seem to like Sabots or lead bullets.

You dont use a Gas check with this bullet Paper Patched!

[crappie-hunter]

You dont use a Gas check with this bullet Paper Patched!

Thanks ,that helps

[rsvp2rip]

Idahoron - I know you are really passionate about paper patch bullets, I've watched your YouTube video and it is very informative on the subject. I think you got something I posted wrong though. I never said that a grease groove bullet could not be patched, just the opposite. Are you telling me that a mould that drops a .503" bullet is too large to size to .499" so I could patch it? I'm a little confused about what you said about sizing. Obviously you didn't have good success without patching, but all my muzzleloaders have shot very well without patching, at least to my criteria. You level of acceptance is not the same as everyone else's. Would you be so critical of me if I were asking for a round ball size to shoot out of a smooth bore?

[idahoron]

Don't get me wrong, I am not upset or put off. I am just answering your posts and giving you some input.

You posted this on an earlier post.
"Correct me if I'm wrong but can't you paper patch a bullet with grease grooves?

I was commenting to that post and I am correcting that. One of the reasons I posted the sticky was to prove that you can PP and GG bullet.
You probably will be fine sizing a .503 to .499 but then you have to size it again after it is wrapped. If you sized it again to .499 then that bullets actual diameter is going to be .493 I think that will be fine.
I am casting the Lee bullet to .501 then I wrap and size to .501 for my guns. I would size to .498 and have no problem with that I recommended that 54bore use that size. Some guys want to size down from .510 or .515 and that much doesn't normally work well.
I did have some good luck with out paper patching. The Hornady 410 gr 50 cal was super accurate but they discontinued it. The 385 gr is accurate but that bullet is not a good game bullet in my opinion. I have seen what good bullets do and I have seen what the Hornadys do and the power belts do. A good cast bullet can beat them but you have to work at it. I was shooting my own naked cast bullets at 3" to 4" groups. I wanted a LOT better results because I knew how the Hornadys shot. The Hornady bullets will shoot sub 2" in my guns, and I actually have a group that is sub 1/2" at 100 yards.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/2250Group_2_small.jpg

I am not trying to critical of you, and I am sorry if it appears that way. But like the others have said we have found that a paper patched bullet in the right twist will produce the kind of accuracy most are happy with. I look for sub 2" groups from my guns. I get much better than that but I am happy with sub 2".
I would not be answering to a thread that was about a PRB in a smooth bore. I also don't add input to threads about sabots. Just not my thing.

[rsvp2rip]

There was never an argument that you cannot PP a grease groove bullet. You should read the posts from the beginning. All I was saying was that if I bought a mould that dropped.503" bullets and I could not get any kind of accuracy I did not have to scrap the mould, but instead just resize and then PP those bullets. I was originally asking about a grease groove mould that gave a diameter appropriate for the rifling dimensions of my gun. It is apparent that non-paper patch bullets are not your thing. Thanks for your input.

[idahoron]

Correct me if I'm wrong but can't you paper patch a bullet with grease grooves? Why not try to get acceptable results the first time and then size and patch if I don't?

You wanted some one to correct you, I did.
You said you didn't want to mess with PP until that was the last resort. Okay by me, good luck.
I never said that naked bullets were not my thing. I and a lot of other guys that have tried it found that there is a better way. But good luck.

[rsvp2rip]

You obviously are not reading that correctly.

[mooman76]

Have you tried Lee REAL bullets. They don't have to be hammered in. Takes a good smack with a starter but shouldn't need a hammer. With a over powder wad, they usually shoot pretty dang good.

[rsvp2rip]

No, I haven't tried anything in this gun yet, other than trying to cram a few saboted bullets I had lying around down the bore and realized that it would be the wrong way to load this gun. REAL bullets would be alright but they are too light for my tastes. I really want a bullet over 400 grains. A power belt bullet goes down the bore great and mikes at exactly .500", just tried it today. So sounds like I'm heading in the right direction. I've been doing some research outside of this forum and looks like a bullet from bore size to plus 2 thousandths is on the right track.