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Oldfeller
11-03-2005, 06:28 PM
Following is the offer from LEE PRECISION, office of the president:

==================================================

If we want a 48% discount on our custom cut mold purchases (and everything else from LEE PRECISION) we can do the following:

Find ONE (1) civic minded member whose stay-at-home wife wants a part-time type stay-at-home job. This could be a retired couple or a young couple whose child raising needs has locked Mom away from working outside the home.

We would pay a bit extra for this person's time in collecting and processing our individual orders, but on the whole we would save a good bit of money as our $56 custom cut six bangers cost say $35-$36 now (delivered).

It would be nice if this person was centrally located in the USA to cut down on the required postage amounts, but this is not absolutely required.

HONCHOS -- PLEASE CONSIDER STOPPING ANY LEE CHECK FOR A MOLD ORDER THAT HASN'T ALREADY BEEN ACTUALLY SENT OUT TO LEE AND CONSIDER HOLDING THEM UNTIL THE FIRST OF NEXT YEAR. (our stuff in motion is considerable $$$ right now and could tally up to ringing this $6,000 bell fairly easily if held until after the first)

Amass all the money and route it all through our front person on Jan 1st, 2006. If we sent a single order for $6,000 (at the 48% discounted rate mind you) we as a CAST BOOLITS group qualify for a LEE Distributorship. We get our initial order and all following orders at a 48% discount. This order can be ANY LEE products, custom cut mold orders, pots, cast iron LEE presses -- anything LEE makes.

$6000 is 240 six banger molds or 310 pistol molds or some other combo of LEE items. We bought more custom cut molds than this quantity this past year, but not all at the same time. As individuals, we also bought a whole $$$ lot $$$ of LEE stuff over the year (die sets, pots, you name it).

Next year we could order it through our front person and get the discount, not only on these normal items but on our custom cut molds as well.

This is LEE's best offer ......

=====================================

Or, we could front all our custom mold purchases through an existing LEE Master Distributor at about the same price. Midsouth and Graf's come to mind as folks who have indicated interest in this sort of relationship the past. If we brushed this relationship off and refined it a bit they could be our front persons for all our custom cut molds as well.

Discussion time ......

who is the first one to say "this really isn't a very good offer from LEE"

(remember, LEE master distributors can sell it at 48% off all day long because they get an additional discount of 10-20 off the 48% normal distributor pricing and as big mail order boys they can make a good overall profit off this sort of thin margin)

But remember .......

To enter into rifles or other forms of DISCOUNTED group buying, we need a single centralized front person to do ordering for us, even our group custom cut mold orders.

Your thoughts?

Oldfeller

45 2.1
11-03-2005, 07:28 PM
Kelly-

You've outdone yourself. This is a very good notion. Glenn has been talking about this for some time. Lar45, where are you?

Oldfeller
11-03-2005, 07:42 PM
I thought about Lar and I thought about Starmetal Joe -- either of which could do this particular trick and get a small part-time income out of it. Lar, I also thought about buying him a small CNC lathe and cranking him up in the mold making business, this is very similar to how Mountain Molds got started except Dan found his own CNC rig (used).

Somebody could grow a home-based internet-based business out of this deal (and that would be fine by me -- just dandy as a matter of fact).

I always like it when list members get ahead in the world.

Oldfeller

mike in co
11-03-2005, 08:01 PM
hopefully we could get someone in a no sales tax state....
once we move to a dist , me thinks you run into being a biz......and all the bs that goes with it.
maybe we can continue as just a hobby group...and not get listed as a biz...

Oldfeller
11-03-2005, 08:07 PM
Most of us are out of state to anybody else, and so far you are not required to collect sales taxes for other states off internet orders.

Still, for somebody to front firearms sales they would need a FFL

(we would still be better off to get a Savage part number created and get Wal-Mart to put it in their computer lay-away system (our individual member would show up at any Wal-Mart lay-away desk and say "Punch this bar code number into your system and see what it says".

Scrounger
11-03-2005, 08:42 PM
Most of us are out of state to anybody else, and so far you are not required to collect sales taxes for other states off internet orders.

Still, for somebody to front firearms sales they would need a FFL

(we would still be better off to get a Savage part number created and get Wal-Mart to put it in their computer lay-away system (our individual member would show up at any Wal-Mart lay-away desk and say "Punch this bar code number into your system and see what it says".


This would definitely be the best way. Whatever price we get, then adding shipping, FFL Fees, and possibly state fees on to that, would sure run the price up over WalMart's price. Those items would total out to about $60 in my case.

StarMetal
11-03-2005, 09:03 PM
aaaaaah...Starmetalusa.com....I like the sound of that. Hmmmm have to thing that over.

Joe

mike in co
11-03-2005, 09:27 PM
you two are going ffl..i never said that, just the problems of being "in business" and delivering products . we were talking lee's line not guns...
lets stick with the lee stuff...would love to see the cost of moulds go down...

MGySgt
11-03-2005, 10:15 PM
Gentlemen (term used loosely for some here).

My wife (housewife) has a business Lic already. She dabled in a small business a few years ago and still has her tax number and license.

From what I understand, getting an FFL anymore without a store front is not all that easy and with my personal collection, I really do not like the idea of BATF rooting around in my house when ever they darn well please.

Drew

PatMarlin
11-03-2005, 11:14 PM
I run a strictly online business at home. My storefront is my Website.

I sell logsplitters nationwide, and in Canada/Alaska, and have been for bout 4 years.

I developed a system that is email based, and tracks everything, and every sale, invoice, and I can look up the status of a customers order by search instantly.

There is virtually no paperwork involved, as it is email based, and for this type of venture it is perfect, and time involved is kept at a minimum.

porkchop bob
11-04-2005, 12:10 AM
Back in August, in this forum, there is a thread titled Lee Molds. Much of it applies to this thread.
Go to the Group Buy section and at the bottom you will see a drop down menu that says "last month" change that to 100 days and go to page two and you should see it. Exactly what would be the role of our Lee Master Distributer, the Honcho, and the individual buyers?

Should we pay for our Lee Master Distributor to be bonded?

Would the role of Honcho remain the same except for the extra step of going via our new Lee Master Distributer? How much delay will this add?

When there is a conflict with a mold, will Lee be dealing with its new Lee Master Distributer or with the Honcho?

We have a system that now works. Making a change, just to reduce costs, may give us a system that adds delay, ends up costing more, and in the end just not work.

Lots of questions without answers. This is a major change. Go slowly.

Bob

Char-Gar
11-04-2005, 12:31 AM
I don't know the best way to handle all of this, but I do know I sent Lee a Cashier's check for over $3,000.00 ten days ago. It is too late now, as they are grinding the tooling and processing the order, but I just wanted to mention the amount, so you could figure it in your thinking.

Oldfeller
11-04-2005, 06:08 AM
(not master distributor - that's like Midsouth or Midway in size)

Roles of LEE Distributor
Take check & order from Honcho, place order with LEE, harass with LEE over nit-picking details (like tolerances left off drawings) recieve order, ship order after Honcho review. "Holding the bag for LEE errors" will tend to rotate to this job as they deal directly with LEE on all jobs, so this job will also have to act as the inbound filter for poor or incomplete concept work on our end and the reverse filter for LEE screwups from LEE's end. Will likely wind up training/supporting new Honchos while they learn the ropes.

Role of Honcho
Champion an idea, find a designer to draw it up, make sure drawing has all required design details & tolerancing. Responsible to drum up the 25 orders for the design. Honcho holds the bag for his design work and his concept work and should review (actually cast and measure) sample molds off a newly made LEE run before the LEE Distributor actually ships the molds out to everybody. The Honcho is the QC responsible person, the end user should NOT be the person responsible for vetting LEE's work -- it is too damn late at that point in time.

Role of Designer
Good drawing practices, dimensioning and tolerancing. Gun experience and experience fitting throats, etc. on the guns in question strongly desireable. Complete drawings will be needed to make this system work.

Role of Customer
Read the design drawing, decide if it will fit your gun correctly. If not, ask for changes to accomodate your needs. If you don't understand a design detail, ask for clarification. Don't "just buy it because it is there" -- ASK questions.

David R
11-04-2005, 07:12 AM
I have about $2500 for LEE soon. Just watching this thread.

David

Willbird
11-04-2005, 07:45 AM
I don't have a problem with it, it will let me buy MORE molds :-)

I can't really hold the group buy I have checks deposited for right now tho. It has drug on quite a bit past it's due date already.

Bill

porkchop bob
11-04-2005, 08:50 AM
Roles of LEE Distributor
Take check & order from Honcho Following suggestions/comments are submitted for your consideration.

Honcho will also have to send the drawing. This will allow the Lee Distributor to send the order, drawing and payment in one package to Lee.

In time, I see the Honcho working up the interest from member as the design is developed and when it appears the numbers are high enough, to tell members to send payment to our Lee Distributor. The fewer in-between steps for the money to flow, the better.

Finding an individual who has the skills, knowledge and the software & hardware to track buyers, payments and to make refunds is the hard part of this concept. At a later date, when this individual is no longer able to work as our Lee Distributor, finding another who will be able to jump in and start running may be even harder.

Bob

SGD
11-04-2005, 10:16 AM
So would the minimum order for custom molds still be 100 for the discount?

porkchop bob
11-04-2005, 12:44 PM
Having our own Lee Distributor would also allow having the molds marked in a uniform manner for easy and positive identification. It is something that can only be done by having all orders funnel through a single point of contact.

For consideration -

It would be useful if we could get Lee to mark these molds such as CB-xx-yy-zz where
xx = caliber
yy = weight
zz = nose and base shape such as FNGC, RNBB, or RNFB

or CB-ABCD with the suffix assigned by us and listed in a reference page in our forum. Increase the suffix number by one with each new group order and update the reference page.

The value added is well worth the extra dollar or two Lee would change for this identification marking.

Yes, I know each of us can mark our mold, but the resulting markings will never be the same.

Months and years from now, when these molds are sold, as they are now unmarked, it will almost be like buyng from a grab-bag.

Bob

Willbird
11-04-2005, 01:31 PM
I can say from experience that we may not want checks from 25-50 people for 4 differant group buys going to the poor LEE dist. Might be better to do it "home party" style and have the Honcho at least collect them, and mail them to the Dist. in one envelope all at one time.

Keeping TWO group buys straight and even asking people nicely to identify what they are sending $$ for, and WHO they are ie email, bollits handle, real name is tough, plus posting "who has paid" lists. I cannot imagine trying to do it with 4 going on at once :-).

Bill

Bman
11-04-2005, 08:37 PM
If Willbird and DavidR are holding the amount of money I think they are we should be right about there now.

It seems that one factor in interest in a custom mold is cost. There are several I'd like to have but my funds are limited. It sounds like for an additional 16 bucks I could have two molds instead of one. And BTW I just ordered a Pro pot 4 and a .311 sizer through Midway that should be here Monday. With shipping a tad over 70.00.

Personally given the choice I'd wait a few extra weeks and save the $$. Especially if a deserving member's family benefitted.

That's my .02

Brian

btr-cj
11-04-2005, 09:00 PM
Well People, I like this idea. I think this group should benefit from all the business we send to LEE.

I guess it is time to formally introduce myself. My name is C.J. Marchand and I would like to throw my hat into the ring for being the distributor.

I live in south Louisiana and am an applications developer (Computer Programmer). I have software and hardware background. I have been doing database programming for the past couple of years and do Windows client and Web programming. Writing an application to track the group buys should not be a problem. I have started one already. The concerns of keeping more then one group buy straight should not be a problem if I do my job of writing the program.

My wife and I had a business license a couple of years ago when we were in partnership with my brother for an antiques and collectables business. My wife handled filling out the tax forms so is familiar with the requirements in that respect.

I really do not have the expertise to evaluate the moulds received from LEE but if it would be the responsibility of the Honcho that would be fine.

If not selected I still should be able to give a little back to the group in the way of some programming skills.

Thanks,

C.J.

Willbird
11-04-2005, 09:49 PM
Well we are talking waiting more than a few weeks, more like 2 months if you round up like you should.

And I as a Honcho am not going to make that call, it would have to be almost unanimous.

I also need to consider how many extra molds to buy on the 454-275, if alternate 454 designs may go for $25.00 under the new plan I don't want to end up with un-wanted molds that I have $50.00 in.

Bill

mike in co
11-04-2005, 10:01 PM
first shall we become a hobby purchasing group.
and
second
should we hold the currrent mould orders to fund the star of such group,

i'll wait on the one order i'm on

Oldfeller
11-04-2005, 10:08 PM
Mr. Alexander,

Mr. Lee asked me to e-mail you regarding the telephone
conversation. He mis-spoke on the requirements to become a
distributor; It would be a $14,000 initial order, and $6,000 annual
purchases to maintain distributor status. Sorry for any confusion
this oversight might have caused.

Patrick

mike in co
11-04-2005, 10:11 PM
the collection point can in fact be lees prime contact, but anyone honcho'ing a group buy could do details with lee.
i "worK" for an ffl. they have all the authority, the ffl , the biz lic and the shipping address.
i contact any and all sources and put together orders. i regularly attend the shot show , and set up dealer pricing for the biz.
i place and fund the order. it is shipped to the biz for pickup and delivery by me.
since we deliver locally only sales tax is collected, and a small fee for firearm's transactions.
it aint rocket science...but i would like to ensure the collection point does not find themselves owing a sales tax, nor a income tax....as long as they show no profit the income is a non-issue, but would like to have them check on sales tax for delivered out of thier state....

45 2.1
11-04-2005, 10:30 PM
Kelly-

I see that Pat held up to his usuall method of doing business. I think that amounts to giving somebody the business! We are left to guess if the initial order is actual cost or retail cost also. Kind of puts a damper on things.

Willbird
11-04-2005, 10:39 PM
WOW, $14,000 is sure a lot BIGGER nut to crack, Thats 538 molds, 21 group buys.

Lots of guys like the pro1000 press's tho(even tho I don't), if we could pre-sell 78 press's at the 48% discounted price of $103.00 that would go with the 6000 worth of molds we thought we had to buy to get over the top to total 14,000.

also even the 6000 deal would not be what I first thought, because each mold costs less, we would have to sell 230 molds at 48% discount to get to $6000.00 order.

Really tho, if we have almost 1000 members, they would each only have to spend $14.00 to get there :-)

Bill

Oldfeller
11-04-2005, 11:48 PM
First, I recall to your mind a flap we had on the gun-net community about six months or so ago where Mr. Lee spoke with a customer directly about a return item. Much was said about that, and having negotiated with Mr. Lee directly for almost 20 minutes I have a better perspective on that past episode concerning his communications and negotiating styles.

Mr. Lee speaks very directly to whatever point he is trying to make. This trait is shared by most CEOs as they feel their time is valuable and they don't care to have it wasted. Mr. Lee also has certain viewpoints or points he intends to make in a conversation and he WILL try to bend the conversation to cover them. Once again, CEOs are very focused people and this is not an unusual trait among them.

Mr. Lee does not listen as well as some CEOs --when you say "manufacturers" he wants to hear "mold manufacturers". When what you are trying to refer to is Savage Arms or our deals with gas check manufacturers he only wants to reference it in his mind to other mold manufacturers and wants to go off to make another set of points about how inexpensive his molds are. (and he will go there and make those points) When a point is made back that we HAD a discount structure with Lee then it was suddenly taken away due to "too much production time being taken up by our six cavity molds" and a price increase was given back to us instead -- which IS different from the way other manufacturers treat us -- you get hit up with being "disingenuous". (take it kindly, to some folks it means you are getting off the point again. And I was, to the point Mr. Lee was trying to make at the time.)

You also get told there never was a real production run-time shortage, we were just taking up too much time setting our mold orders up and the $100 programming charge didn't cover it and the 25 order quantity didn't cover it and we certainly could not be given a discount on that business since it wasn't being profitable at that price in the first place.

This sounds like a simple truth. That's why we got the price increase and that is also likely why the discount distributorship offer was modified after the fact. They need other business with us to float or support the mold business.

Anyway, Mr. Lee called his secretary over and had her fetch him a copy of his discounting structure, which he proceeded to read to me. He got down to the part about distributors, read it and then stopped, thought a second and then HE made the $6,000 distributorship offer to us. His idea.

Note this please: he was reading directly from his own internal rules, he found one that allowed our relationship to continue and even increase -- HE as CEO framed a concrete offer to us which was verbally accepted as a good "win-win" solution by me.

He was asked by me if he would count our orders that were already in motion (I was aware of how much money we had out there and told him it already met his requirements). He thought a second, said "no", that it had to be after the first of the year when distributorships normally start and it had to be $6,000 at the 48% of list price off the new catalog prices which will be coming out and the new catalog will have cost increases in it. I told him I thought this was a very doable thing, said it was a good workable win-win solution and ended the conversation on that positive note.

We did conclude a verbal agreement in principal, but it was not concluded in written detailed language before it was recinded by Pat.

(Honchos, also note Mr. LEE said in conversation that six cavity molds would NOT be increasing in price next year).

Now, we get an e-mail from Pat saying the gentleman mis-spoke himself and the distributorship nut to make is now $14,000 (at 48% discounted rate in all likelyhood which raises the bar beyond what would be in our economical best interest to try to pursue).

Mind you, there was no written agreement at this time and business IS legally run by written P.O.s and contracts. LEE makes the rules for their distributorships and LEE certainly can change them for any new upcoming year period.

What took place? -- a successfully completed negotiation that failed after the fact. A recension written by an underling, at the direction of the CEO.

What should we do? Nothing much. Polish up one of the relationships with a master distributor and refine it a bit. Continue on with the existing mold runs since Honchos have committments to keep with their groups.

I don't think more telephone negotiating with LEE will bear much additional fruit though, since whatever was, isn't any more and whatever is agreed upon today may get changed by tomorrow.

I certainly wouldn't put one of our members into that "in-between" distributor situation in such a changeable environment with a partial livelyhood at stake.

Oldfeller

krag35
11-05-2005, 12:10 AM
Well, for me, I'm tired of working with Lee crap anyway. Next custom mold I get will be from Mountian Molds.

krag35

Jumptrap
11-05-2005, 12:57 AM
Well, for me, I'm tired of working with Lee crap anyway. Next custom mold I get will be from Mountian Molds.

krag35

Ah another one has floated to the top, the view is pretty good from up here..hehehe!

Jumptrap
11-05-2005, 01:12 AM
One other point you need to consider......Lee thinks himself a Big Fish in a small pond.....and he isn't. He no doubts likes to reckon himself akin to major manufacturers like Lyman and RCBS and again, he isn't. He has carved himself a niche in the cheap reloading gear market and he makes and sells cheap **** that mirrors the prices he charges. There are gun manufacturers who have done likewise...like Mossberg. Yep, they are a known maker.....of cheap guns that work. In the same league as Remington or Winchester? HAR! In their dreams maybe. But, I promise if you go to visit the CEO of Mossberg, he'll be sitting in a fine leather chair behind a mahogany desk and playing the part of an Industrial Mogul......but in reality, a Pretender to the Throne. Mossberg couldn't make a truly fine gun if their lives depended on it.....they are not structured to do so. And, neither is Lee structured to make anything but cheap assed junk from aluminum extrusions and bar stock.

So where does that leave you......the small custom houses who crank out quality in deference to quantity....and you pay for it in exchange. Trying to buy a Cadillac at Chevy prices is an impossibility. They don't make Caddy's at the Chevy plant and no amount of chrome will change that.

Scrounger
11-05-2005, 01:15 AM
Has anyone ever approached NEI on a 25 mold discount price? I know the quality would be higher , no idea on pricing...

45nut
11-05-2005, 01:31 AM
first shall we become a hobby purchasing group.
and
second
should we hold the currrent mould orders to fund the star of such group,

i'll wait on the one order i'm on
I personally have no dog in this fight but remember well the "incedent" Oldfeller speaks of. It was over at "The High Road" and Mr.Lee certainly did his company no favors by addressing the topics himself. As Oldfeller also said,some people just do not have the ability to put words into a post that seem ..well,,less than crass,it was rather a long thread and at the end I did not have a very high opinion of the precision of Mr Lee to select his business affairs online with much favor to the customer base he must have meant to reach out to and settle the dispute. Some people just do not have the skills to avoid seeming to inflict harm while trying to deflate an issue.
Regarding the "hobby" aspect of CB,personally I think that is one of the attractions here,we are not beholden to one brand or manufacturer. Taking on "distributor" status may or may not change that,but with the sudden change to $14K that almost certainly would. I personally do not want this to be the "Lee Precision Cast Bullet Forum" any more than I want to run a Ford discussion group. I have many Lee molds and after a long while am in another group buy right now. I cast from a Pro 4-20 and have many Lee Dies and feel the value of their products serves us well,nothing against them and I wish them luck and success. However,the Cast Boolits "group" is a rather unique set of circumstances and people. Even as we grow and add new members it appears for the most part we attract folks that fit in well. I personally do not want a corporate influence to appear and disrupt that family appeal. Corporate America has a job,but it doesn't need to run everything.
my nickle's worth
45nut

StarMetal
11-05-2005, 01:37 AM
45nut

AMEN

Joe

45nut
11-05-2005, 01:56 AM
Thanks Joe.
I used to work at a family owned business,now working for "corporate" as an "at-will" employee. Same location,new name,new rules. I do not plan on handing CB over to anyone but one of "US" when that time comes.
As a matter of fact,this is not about me at all,but Cast Boolits is about US. I feel more like part of a extended family,rather than "Administrator",titles don't do much for me but something had to be applied under my handle.
I do want to convey my appreciation to everyone that visits and enjoys what we do here. It makes me quite proud to be a small part of it.

Bret4207
11-05-2005, 08:55 AM
It occurs to me that while I like my Lee 6-bangers, I like my Lyman 4 bangers too. There must be another outfit, (Mountain Moulds?), willing to make at least a 4 cavity EXACTLY like we want it. There is always a problem with the Lees, so we have to Leement the moulds. The profiles are never quite right and they always run a bit smaller than hoped for. Again, while I love my moulds, maybe someone else could use our bucks. My thought is spurring Lyman in the hopes they'd start getting back into the mould business. Lymans market share continues to drop. I figure Pachmayer keeps them afloat. Any thoughts?

45 2.1
11-05-2005, 09:18 AM
I put that question to Mountain Molds quite some time ago, the answer was NO in a somewhat brusque fashion. Everybody else has alot higher mold prices! What is needed is someone to come out with the perfect mold setup and cutting process, any takers?

Willbird
11-05-2005, 09:59 AM
What is needed is a small cnc lathe, and probably a CNC mill to make the blocks.

I am cooking on an idea to cnc my Series 1 bridgeport mill, it will cost 1600.00 plus the cost of a computer (PC). 600.00 of that is ballscrews for X and Y axis.

A lathe would run about the same, you would need a ballscrew on the X axis at least because it must move both directions while cutting....the Z can simply feed into the block and ballscrew might not be needed there.

making molds and making money could be difficult, as we have talked about before a 6 cavity LEE mold has 10 or more machined parts, the maker has to make them and sell them to a distro for what 20 bucks each for the completed mold ?

I like that the Lee 6 cavity is LIGHT, flinging a saeco 4 cav around for a few hours gets wearisome right quick.

If we as a group pursued an automatic casting machine we could all pitch in and make parts for we could get by with 2-4 cavity molds and the weight of the block would not matter. It is far easier to make 2-4 cavities alike than it is 6, the difficulty probably increases at exponential levels as you add more cavities.

Bill

Urny
11-05-2005, 10:14 AM
The Lee offer, version two, kind of takes this beyond any reasonable appreciation of our means as a group. Lotta money, there. Mr Marchands offer is generous and I appreciate it, but how do implememt it when so much $ are involved?

From where I sit, Krag35 is probably right anyway, and Jumptrap will certainly (and did) tell us so. Dan's website is still up, and his molds are still the best deal out there.

Oldfeller
11-05-2005, 12:01 PM
There is another aspect to this thing that we have not mentioned so far.

If LEE had cranked us up as a 2006 distributor, what would Midsouth, Midway, Grafs and others had to say about that?

I see old crafty Pat wafting me over to Mr. LEE to get me blown off, but instead Mr. Lee and I reached an agreement and cut us a deal -- one that Pat had no hand in making and Pat wouldn't want under any circumstances.

I betcha they had a little discussion real quick-like after Pat found out we were going to be a new distributor in 2006 ....

<g>


==================================

Yeah, we could take up a collection of $1.00 from every gun nut on the net and just go buy the distributorship. Or we could raise holy hell, call for a general boycott of LEE products and force Mr. Lee to honor the deal he offered us. But as I struggle to fix Ric's wobbly goblin LEE 2 banger mold, I actually start to agree more with Jumptrap's position -- LEE molds are a ***.

LEE molds aren't very well made, unless it is a six banger mold you really ARE wasting your money on a LEE mold as it really ISN"T going to last 2-3 years in serious gun-nut level use.

Heck, I'm sitting here writing a thread on how to fix them so they don't crap out on you so durn fast .......

I'm really wasting my time, we really DO need a better alterative to put our money into rather than messing with LEE.


Oldfeller

Jumptrap
11-05-2005, 12:46 PM
I put that question to Mountain Molds quite some time ago, the answer was NO in a somewhat brusque fashion. Everybody else has alot higher mold prices! What is needed is someone to come out with the perfect mold setup and cutting process, any takers?

I had Dan make a couple moulds for me and he let me know in the above fashion that he wasn't going to do the final legwork on the tolerances and such.."that is why he put up the program". I also think that is why he bugged out on us....didn't like being pestered.

Well, I take issue with that BECAUSE, when I am dealing on a custom basis, I am buying knowledge and experience as well as the end product......I not only want, but EXPECT the makers input and ideas. Dan got to the point where he wants you to make all the critical decisions and then all he has to do is plug the numbers into his CNC mill and walk away. If the mould comes out *****ed...tough ****, you(the customer) designed it and he takes no responsibility. That is a cop out and why I refuse to have him make any more moulds for me. His products are top drawer and I am very, very happy with them. But, when he refused to invest his precious time in making sure all the numbers were right before the blocks are cut, I quit him and until he changes his modus operandi, it will remain that way.

grumble
11-05-2005, 12:47 PM
This has been an interesting thread. Wild optimism fading to a more sour and realistic look at things.

I also wondered what the current major Lee distributers (Midway, Midsouth, etc) would have to say about our "buyers' co-op." Unlikely that they'd sit idly by as we took $6000, much less $14,000, from their top line revenue.

And, if we were to get the distributership, there would be an annual pressure on us to keep the order level above whatever whimsical number Lee would demand year by year. It wouldn't be long until the person holding the distributertship would decide to sell Lee stuff on the online auctions at below market prices. I suspect tha would REALLY get the attention of other distributers.

How many gunshops have you visited that carry Lee equipment? Most I've seen have RCBS and Lyman, but almost no Lee stuff. That leads me to believe the markup is better for those brands and that Lee doesn't offer much to a typical gun store. Conversly, it may be that RCBS and Lyman could cut some pretty good deals, If Lee has a ~40% markup to retail, I'd guess the other guys do too.

Wonder if we should broaden our horizons with this idea?

grumble
11-05-2005, 12:57 PM
My previous post got me to thinking -- if Lee wants 14K of business, what does that represent to them in profit? Maybe $5K? What if we had a real "buyers club" that just bought the distributership? Say, $10/year membership dues to be paid to the person holding the ownership paper and license for him to buy the distributership, and no pressure for a given purchase amount?

At a 40% discount to retail, it would only take about $50 worth of purchases to make the $10 annual fee pay for itself.

Just more thoughts to add to the confusion.

StarMetal
11-05-2005, 01:03 PM
Jumptrap

What you said about Dan and plus he killed Oldfellers Frankenstein.

Joe

Jumptrap
11-05-2005, 01:08 PM
What is needed is a small cnc lathe, and probably a CNC mill to make the blocks.

I am cooking on an idea to cnc my Series 1 bridgeport mill, it will cost 1600.00 plus the cost of a computer (PC). 600.00 of that is ballscrews for X and Y axis.

A lathe would run about the same, you would need a ballscrew on the X axis at least because it must move both directions while cutting....the Z can simply feed into the block and ballscrew might not be needed there.

making molds and making money could be difficult, as we have talked about before a 6 cavity LEE mold has 10 or more machined parts, the maker has to make them and sell them to a distro for what 20 bucks each for the completed mold ?

I like that the Lee 6 cavity is LIGHT, flinging a saeco 4 cav around for a few hours gets wearisome right quick.

If we as a group pursued an automatic casting machine we could all pitch in and make parts for we could get by with 2-4 cavity molds and the weight of the block would not matter. It is far easier to make 2-4 cavities alike than it is 6, the difficulty probably increases at exponential levels as you add more cavities.

Bill


Bill,

In actuality, what 'we' need is somebody within the group to perform these 'in house' mold runs. It of course would require somebody who really enjoyed doing machine work. I am not a machinist much to my personal chagrin, but if I understand correctly, a CNC controlled lathe/mill after being fed the proper program does all the work....except maybe feeding the raw stock.....and a modern milling center even does all that.

Anyway, if one of you machinist types had the basic tooling and this group of ours would pony up for the upgrades with some guarantee that we would have access for special projects (within a reasonable limit) that perhpas might be the best solution. However, if people ran it in the ground and sat back on their asses constantly conjouring up some new super mould to be made....that would kill it. Me thinks if some arrangement like this was concocted, a limit of say 3 and possibly 4 special runs per year would be reasonable. In exchange for the tooling, our reward would be getting the moulds for cost of materials, shipping and a small charge on the operators end for his time and expense of electricty, etc.

I know for the most part, the average guy with a mill/lathe doesn't want to be bothered.....I wouldn't.

If this is harebrained, then the only alternative is hoping to get a quantity break from some established CUSTOM maker.

StarMetal
11-05-2005, 01:12 PM
Jump

Would this person that does the actual work get a medical and retirement benefit package also??? har har har

Joe

felix
11-05-2005, 01:15 PM
Yeah, we can just pay Midsouth 5 grand up front for a down payment for all of our custom runs. But nobody wants to do that, right? ... felix

Willbird
11-05-2005, 01:24 PM
Now OldFeller is finally understanding why when the Emporer farts we feel a breeze, because he has NO clothes on :-).

CNC lathe work on tiny holes where you have a contour, where you can only really measure the back band, and you would like to hold .0001 to keep all 2-4-6 cavities alike is going to be sort of ticklish work. Plus for small stuff LEE doesnt single point it they use a form cutter, we can't make them readily most guys would have to buy them.



Bill

Oldfeller
11-05-2005, 01:42 PM
Now Joe, Dan had him an honest young type fellow sub-Veral level brain-fart and he made up for it, so why beat him up about it now? I did stupider things than that when I was his age, so let it go -- OK?

Mold making does something to people. First Veral, then Dan, now LEE -- it must be them lead and aluminum fumes acting on their brains.

==================================

Speaking of brains -- you guys are past due for a Sorbanes-Oxley mandated POP TEST. Perk up and pay attention.

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0001.jpg

First question:

Which one of the bullets is best suited for:

Elk
Bison
Lion (as shown in the background)
Paper punching

Next question:

Which one does Waksupi use for his "light work" shooting the above animals?


Next question:

Which one does Starmetal Joe intend to stuff into IGOR to go use to dismantle a small eastern seaboard deer in a particularly graphic and messy fashion?


Last questions:

Does Oldfeller really have a heavy bullet & recoil pain fixation?
Has he really been going to Recoil Anonomous meetings every Tuesday evening?
Has he really taken the pledge and why do his long legged furrin' Swedish wimmen carry them braided black leather whips?

<g>

lighten up boys and laugh at it a bit,

it's just a hobby ......

Oldfeller

StarMetal
11-05-2005, 01:49 PM
First answer: They all are good for purposes listed.

Second answer: I know Waksupi doesn't have a 8x56R so he uses either the 6.5 cruisemissile or that 35 caliber on the right. I know he has shot deer with the 6.5 and they are what I concider light work.

Third answer: Well that's a no brainer since I was the one that told you what I was going to use...the middle one.

Last answer: No Oldfeller doesn't go to Recoil Anonymous as for one thing he doesn't have time and the other is he's a wuzzy hehehehehehe

Joe
P.S. Hey Kelly, Dan's not all the blame for demise of Frankie, I think some vermin barrito eater had something to do with it. har har har

Oldfeller
11-05-2005, 02:00 PM
Ok, Joe did pretty good, but he missed a question -- hint: there ain't no cruise missile shown out there.

Last questions:

Which bullet weighs the most?

Which one weighs the least?

StarMetal
11-05-2005, 02:14 PM
Oh, that must be the 8mm cruisemissile, it just looked so much thinnner they those big boys.

Negate that 6.5 for Waksupi, he uses the one on the right.

Joe

Oldfeller
11-05-2005, 02:19 PM
Joe's getting good here boys, but that last set of questions is a real poser though .....

Joe, which one is heaviest, which one is lightest?

you pick one and I'll show it sitting up on the scale with the display showing.

waksupi
11-05-2005, 03:07 PM
Kelly, I know the answer to the second question. For the first question, the gentleman standing in the middle is my choice.

Oldfeller
11-05-2005, 03:49 PM
Joe guesses that the middle bullet weights the most .......

(it says 10.939 grams if you can't read it for the logo)

http://photos.gunloads.com/images/Oldfeller/dscf0001_1.jpg

and he misses again --- it is actually the lightest of the bullets at 168.8 grains.

All the rest of the bullets are cast of ww metal and weigh a whole lot more. This particular 95/5 bullet can be driven at 2,700 fps out of a IGOR with normal 30-06 feeling recoil levels.

(but not accurately .... as a matter of fact it sucks for accuracy)

<g>

Now, want to guess which one that is left is the heaviest?

Oldfeller

StarMetal
11-05-2005, 05:12 PM
Kelly,

I never took a guess at the heaviest one. You think that bullet can be shot out of the very very light M95 rifle to 2700 fps with 30-06 recoil? You're nut ahahahahahahahahahahaha...as John Wayne would say "Not Hardly". The dang burn thing kicks pretty good at 1600 fps.

As an aside, I was just shooting. It's been awhile since I shoe the M95 so I wanted to shoot two rounds and see if my air cooled soft alloy deer load was up to snuff being the rifle had been bumped around the safe by the other guys getting shot more. DANG! I'm beginning to think that M95 is the best dang burn doggone cast shooting bullet rifle there is. The two shots were in the bull one inch apart at 100 yards, with peep sights. Where's that deer, where's that deer.

Joe

Oldfeller
11-05-2005, 08:37 PM
Joe, what's so unbelievable?

I cast a trick Boxcar bullet out of 95/5 bar solder that weighs 168.8 grains and I stuck it on top of 49 grains of IMR 4064 (IMR 7378 doesn't burn completely clean in this case with this light of a bullet anyway, 4061 works better for normal people). It kicks about like a 30-06 because weight & mass & accelleration-wise it IS about like a 30-06.

(heavens preserve me from EVER putting down a maximum load that I really use in my lapped-out Steyr rifle -- I could get somebody hurt if they just plugged one into their non-lapped gun without thinking)

I put it in the line up as a foolie, because I knew you'd been out shooting the Boxcar in WW lead and your shoulder is like kinda "stinging" a mite right about now.

If it shot worth a **** I'd be claiming I'd done something, but it doesn't -- so it is just good for a little brain-teaser to help some folks see the funny in things.

Plus it was intended to give you a ray of hope concerning the arm & finger numbness, loosened dentures, mild cornea separations and any soft tissue damage to the scapula and collar-bone -- all of which can come from shooting real full bore 8x56 Boxcar reloads in your steel butt-plated IGOR rifle.

===================================

You'se just getting you a mild case of Honcho-itis -- it's sleeping on all those durn rocks all the time what's affecting you. Take two asprin and call me in the morning.

I tell you what, I'll bring you up a dozen loaded rounds and some spare boolits for when we all meet up at Jumptrap's house -- he's got him a chrony and I'll bring me a back up Beta Master Chrony all folded up in the back seat under all the gun cases. And I'll bring a spare 9 volt battery or two for all the deader batteries that will show up with all the members.

What one of those slugs does to a milk jug of water at 2,700 fps is SPLAT -- that's potentially real messy on a deer. So is a air dropped dead-soft ww boxcar, but that's something you'll figure out for yourself when you find Bambi this fall (remember to take your digi camera with you -- a picture of you reaching down into the exit wound about shoulder deep and waving at us "from the other side" is expected)

=======================================

Ric, you want to guess which one of the remaining two bullets weigh more? They are both cast out of standard WW metal and since you own both molds you ought to be able to guess right the first time on this one.

<g>

Oldfeller

StarMetal
11-05-2005, 09:25 PM
Oldfeller,

The M95's will take it, even the unlapped ones. Have you ever shot any of the original 1938 Nazi issue ammo that floated around for them a few years ago? Before you say the jacketed bullets were probably slightly undersized let me tell you they aren't and they weigh 207 grains and the stuff is damn hot. You will think you shot a 338 Winchester mag out of the light little steelbutt plated rifle.

I'm only moving my boxcars at warp one, not almost warp three like your lightweight model. Also one has to figure how much it will slow down at whatever distance bambi appears. I shot my deer up in Ohio with air cooled soft alloy 405 grains 45-70 bullets starting out of the gate at 1850 fps and yes they killed the deer dead, I wasn't able to drive my little Suzuki ATV through the wound.

Joe

Joe

45 2.1
11-05-2005, 09:59 PM
Jump=

I reached the same conclusion long before you did, he f**cked up the first mold and wouldn't make it right. Not the design which he didn't cut right, but the mold fit. The alignment pins wouldn't stay fitted and the mold was out of round two thousandths, which he thought was OK. I will have to think long and hard before he gets anything from me.

45 2.1
11-11-2005, 08:20 AM
Oldfeller-
This idea should not die. Here is a solution. Midsouth is a LEE distributor. How about you arranging a deal with them where they take the initial order for 25 minimum six cavity molds from our group buys and order from LEE in which we get a very good price from them. We test the molds, then they could put up a special order mold in single cavity for them to sell. DON'T LET THIS IDEA DIE!!! How about it?

7br
11-11-2005, 10:34 AM
Higher up in the thread, there is some discussion about customer service at mountain molds. Have I missed something? Has the quality of work decreased? Does he not spend a lot of time talking with the customer?

I am considering a gift to myself for Christmas and I think a mold would fit under the tree nicely. I was thinking about jumping in on the .41 group buy, but decided not as I would be a lot more willing to drop the extra $15 or so and get something I really trust. Really ort to be looking for a fat 30 though.

trooperdan
11-11-2005, 11:37 AM
We've been all over this trail worse than a herd of cat's going to town! Let's keep this idea going! I don't think even 14K is so unreasonable to raise. We could bank group orders until we hit the magic mark; guys would just have to be patient!( HA!) and understand the order wouldn't go in until we hit the mark.

Or we could talk to Midsouth.. they just might see some profit in the idea as well.

Let's keep the idea alive!

Oldfeller
11-12-2005, 12:06 AM
Keep the dream alive -- a world without LEE molds.

What a beautiful dream.

Mountain Molds has made a whole lot more people happy than have been disappointed (at a right smart satisfaction ratio to that figure as well). Dan is learning what he can and can't do.

("people talking" is one of them things, so he tries to get his web page to do his talking for him).

Dan did (past tense) have issues with his pins shifting, but he fixed the design of his pins (which cost a few bucks extra per mold) but from what I have seen both before/after it was worth it. Compared to a LEE anything, a Mountain Mold is well built.

LEE is just cheap crap -- forget them. I STILL have to cavity lap tune a new six banger mold for drop and consistent size & form. I ought to buy a set of handles for each LEE mold and fixative treat the mold to the handles like the smaller molds so the steel pins won't gall up on me as they keep trying to do.

As far as Midsouth goes, they are even less consistent than LEE Jr. to deal with. I may try Graf to see what sort of response I can get.

Anybody got any issues with Graf & Sons? Other than ssllloooowww-ness I mean?

Oldfeller

Willbird
11-12-2005, 08:06 AM
FMreloading.com sells a great deal of LEE stuff too, I have only dealt with them a couple times.

Bill

Buckshot
11-12-2005, 08:20 AM
..........The hard part about lathe cutting moulds isn't the lathe, or even the fixtures. They're tough robust parts. The accuracy of a good acme thread is certainly good enough for boolit moulds, and I question the ability of ball screws to improve upon current lathe bored cavities. When all is said and done, a cavity producing a slug concentric to a thou is superb work, and it represents a level of accuracy that all but a few can make use of.

Most of what we shoot gets shot from some sloppy lever action, an old warhorse with combat specifications, or a modern production rifle that most the time doesn't even have the barrel screwed on straight. It's amazing we get what we do sometimes.

Certainly CNC is a requiset for repetitive stuff, as I sure can't see someone standing there twirling dials while staring at a DRO display (let's not even consider 3 DI's) without pulling his hair out, or merely setting the machine on fire after the first 50 parts.

I know Hoch makes a big deal out of using a Hardinge second op lathe to bore his moulds "And it's specially set up for mould work". Well whooptie for him. A Hardinge is a nice machine but I know guys with old WW2 era Logans, South Bends, and Sheldons who do work into the tenths too.

Where the work is is in the production of the consumable tooling. I'll bet a hunk of money the reason Dan finally shotgunned the idea of fully custom moulds was due to tool grinding. I'm sure his computer assited mould design program on the web is directly linked to a set of options having to do with tooling options. It would be interesting to see what Dan would say about a discount on a run of his moulds to one design off his program, vs a full blown custom thing (which he's said he won't do).

Otherwise a full on custom setup would end up with a truck load of one off cutting tools never again to see the light of day. Inventory and control of a huge number of nose radius, lube groove and drive band forming tools is money spent that just lays there in drawer after drawer. Look at what is wanted for solid carbide boring tools and the lightbulb over one's head gets pulled.

NEI does do full on custom moulds (or did) and his are cherried (read his diameter disclaimer). You for sure get a fine well made mould and you can order and pay for the cherry and keep it or leave it with them for another price. The more moulds you get, the cheaper they become, to a point.

What I see in the current situation with Lee is the production of a pretty nice mould (in the 6 cavity jobs) for a darn reasonable price, all things considered. I consider the Lee 1 and 2 cavity moulds as consumables. It doesn't matter how carefull you are with them, they deteriorate merely by being used. The 6 cavity versions are a magnitude better design, and deliver useable slugs in huge quantity. With the same number of movements as a 2 cavity you get 3 times the number, so actual numbers delivered in time spent equates to a better them 3 to 1 scenario.

To my way of thinking Lee is the current king of the deal, so far as multi cavity sets of blocks go.

.................Buckshot

7br
11-30-2005, 09:54 AM
Where the work is is in the production of the consumable tooling. I'll bet a hunk of money the reason Dan finally shotgunned the idea of fully custom moulds was due to tool grinding. I'm sure his computer assited mould design program on the web is directly linked to a set of options having to do with tooling options. It would be interesting to see what Dan would say about a discount on a run of his moulds to one design off his program, vs a full blown custom thing (which he's said he won't do).

Has anyone approached him on this? I know that the 6bangers are the rage, but I am lucky to get two range sessions in a month. A three banger would be wonderful for me.

Current wish list:
A Fat 30 mould for Argentine mauser
RCBS 7mm 165gr silhoutte mould
.41 mould in the 250-265gr range
RCBS 243x95gr

Willbird
11-30-2005, 10:06 AM
3-4 cavity would be fine if they were not as heavy as a 4 cavity saeco, a 4 cavity saeco on saeco handles gets darned heavy when you cast 10,000 bullets on it, I know I did, the lee 6 cav. is much lighter.

Bill

David R
11-30-2005, 08:02 PM
I always thought 6 cavity was the way to go. No that I use the BruceB method, I can pour at least 250 boolits in 1/2 hour. 6 bangers are faster for sure, but not 3X faster maybe only 2X faster. Got a brand new used 311284 last Wed. In 4 30 minute casting sessions, I now have over 1,000 boolits. SOOO in 2 hours of casting time, I have enough boolits for next summer. Its a steel Lyman mold, so it will last me forever if I take care of it.

Lyman mold......$45.00 new, lasts forever. Can't complain.

Group buy from mountain molds....SURE.

David