Micro/Mini Calibers

[Valornor]

For some reason I have had a lot of interest in the really, really small calibers. I've been looking at .10, .12 and .14 cal. Currently there isn't any barrel MFG's but apparently there is enough interest that someone may start making barrels for them soon.

Of course that got me thinking....if I'm going to have a new caliber, better have a swage dies to go with. So does anyone make dies that small? My thought is that .10 and .12 cal would have to be a swaged monolithic. Which brings me to another question, how do you cut a copper wire into accurate enough lengths to keep the weight consistent since you can't bleed off excess copper?

[BT Sniper]

"Which brings me to another question, how do you cut a copper wire into accurate enough lengths to keep the weight consistent since you can't bleed off excess copper?"

Good question? I've gone as small as 17 cal with 22lr brass for jackets but haven't attempted smaller calibers yet.

Keep us posted.

BT

[Dryball]

BT, do you make 204's? I'd love a die set to make a 40gr lead tipped boat tail. About cutting copper wire, couldn't you use something like a paper cutter or a special holder where you insert the wire into a block to make sure it's straight then use a harbor freight or Proxxon type chop saw to cut to length?

[Valornor]

Got a response from Corbin. Turns out he does do custom runs for those tiny calibers. They are jacketed bullets being made from .224 jackets drawn down to .10. Even makes miniature draw equipment for lead wire.

[BT Sniper]

BT, do you make 204's? I'd love a die set to make a 40gr lead tipped boat tail. About cutting copper wire, couldn't you use something like a paper cutter or a special holder where you insert the wire into a block to make sure it's straight then use a harbor freight or Proxxon type chop saw to cut to length?

Yes I have 20 cal as well as 17 cal available. I don't have boat tail options for these small calibers but with .25MOA at 200yrds I'm not sure "I" need a boat tail but could certainly offer a boat tail option in these small calibers.

Check out the results I got with 41 grain 20 cal bullets made from standard 22lr brass.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?247465-20-cal-from-22lr-brass/page2

as for chopping copper wire????? I suppose a good mini chop saw with some sort of stop would be the way I would go about it too so long as the results where very consistent.

BT

[bullet maker 57]

I don't believe that boat tails offer any advantage in the small calibers. They generally are not shot at distances for the boat tail to be effective.

[Valornor]

I would do flat base bullets personally, I don't see shooting these microcalibers past 75 yards.

[seppos]

Marten family sketched up.
Original case is .32 S&W Long
184129

6mm, 224, 17, 14 and 12.
From steel but will be used for reamer design.

S

[Bills Shed]

That little .12 makes my .172" look huge!:Bright idea::Bright idea::Bright idea:
Just a thought, could you make a die solid enough to swage dead soft copper/brass? My thought would be to have a solid copper core, cut to +2 grains of target weight and the point form die is the "bleed" die, where the bleed goes into the ejection punch hole. Once ejected the "bleed could be removed with a meplat trimmer or a centre drill for a hollow point or a end mill arrangement for a "solid".
It is just a thought, so ....be gentle:-D

Bill

[Valornor]

That Marten Famkly looks good! I was thinking of using 5.7x28mm cases and necking them down.

Thats wn interesting thought, you could do something like that. The thing I would be concerned about is the amount of pressure you put on the punch. I would think that would be the limiting factor. Either the ejection punch or the top punch, with them being so small. The ejection punch would have to be small, not sure what I'd do but .040 or .050?

[clodhopper]

You could almost size a .177 air rifle pellet to .173 for cheap, easy, cast boolit fun.

[bullet maker 57]

I don't think you will get the copper to flow without breaking the punch. The ejection punch for 17 cal is .047. A smaller caliber would need an ejection pin even smaller.

[seppos]

Might work with carbide. The idea about the bleed thru was in my mind too. Possible the ejector punch is not even.needed as the bled copper acts partially as ejector punch so that the real one could be thinner/ sturdier.

S

[Bills Shed]

Agree that the external punch would be a limiting factor. I built a hollow pointing external punch for the 17 to be used during the core seat process and I bent that and did not even feel it go. The external punch would need to be stepped with the major diameter to give the support and the minor diameter would only be long enough to go into the die to do the gob.
On the ejection side if the ejection punch was so short that it just unseated the projectile in the PF die and had a air ejection system the ejection pin might be short enough to support the stress of unseating the pill. But that is more **** hanging off the press that you really do not want there.
Again just a thought.
Bill

[seppos]

I wild idea: why not use hydraulic power as ejector in swaging die? As the fluid is immune to pressure it will not back down or brake, it surrounds the projectiles ogive giving a even pressure for the push. Proper liquid with lubrication prepertys also protects the die from damage giving to it a good service life.
I got this idea from the laws of the nature.. I know.. might be a bit messy, but it is only engineering to work out the details..

S

[Valornor]

Seppos, that's not a bad idea. Like you said might be a little messy. Same concept is used by some to unseat berdan primers. I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't work.

[seppos]

Should be something that evaporates quickly but still lubricate the cavity.. That way the need of lube in the bullet would not be that much.. Also it should not make any drops that could stay in the cavity and make dents to the surface of bullets.

S

[rolltide]

I don't think swaging solid copper or brass makes much sense. You could get a lathe with a collet for work holding and a "box" tool with a custom cutting head. The "box" tool is made for machining really small diameter rod. It has rolling wheels on one side to support the back side of the work (like a miniature steady rest) and a cutting head on the other side. This will cut small diameter stuff concentric without deflection. The tooling would probably cost less than $1000, which would be less than a custom swage die set, and you would have to custom grind a cutter with the bullet shape desired, it would however require a small lathe with a collet holding head.

With this arrangement you could machine and cut each bullet to exact shape and weight faster and more accurately and with less expense than any kind of swage operation for solid brass or copper.

just my dos pesos

[M.A.D]

If you were going to make the projectiles commercially, I would use a Automatic Nail Swage machine... I looked at modifying one for cutting cores from lead wire spools..