Wow!

[jonk]

I had never shot cast out of my M48A Yugo Mauser. (I've got a lot of surplus and have been shooting that out of most of them). This weekend though, I thought, "Why not?" and did so.

Bullet was a .325" group buy 6 cavity 175gr FN GC mold. I ran them through my lee push through .323 sizer (though will try at .325 next time- I didn't have time to use the lyman .325 lubsizier die this time) and lubed with 2 coats of LLA. (Again, time issue, though for the loads I was using the LLA was fine).

All loads were seated to just contact the rifling. For high power loads I'd avoid this but for the light loads I was using, in a 98 action, I wouldn't worry about it.

Load 1: .7cc- about 6 gr- of Bullseye. Fair. About a 4" group at 50 yards.
Load 2: 1.6cc of Red Dot- about 11 grains. A bit better. About 2" at 50 yards.
Load 3: 1.6cc of surplus SR 4759. About 18.5 grains. This was the clear winner of all! 10 rounds fired, 9 of which were touching at 50 yards! The 10th was maybe 1/3" away. Fantastic!

Needless to say, I will try this load again next time out and at 100 yards.

The only down side of the day was that I got some leading. This wasn't a lube fault, I feel; I can SEE the cupro-nickle fouling from the turk ammo in the barrel- that has to be having an effect. I think before I shoot it again, some JB bore paste and a session with the electric bore cleaner is in order. Still, leading wasn't awful either, just a few shards/flakes of spalled lead that I had to scrub out. About 4 passes with the bore brush and 20-30 patches did the job, but then I started pulling out the cupronickle junk and called it quits for the day- I need an afternoon to get that stuff out. In any case it wasn't enough of an issue to upset accuracy.

Just thought I'd share. Hope you all had as good of a weekend as I did. :-)

[Junior1942]

My surplus Turk 8x57 ammo blew an occasional primer. So I started pulling bullets and weighing and measuring. The powder charges and the bullets varied ~10% in weight. Some of the bullets were .326" in diameter. Some were .321". So combine an overweight, too large in diameter bullet with a too large powder charge, and the results ain't good.

[bradh]

Junior is that the 4759 surplus from GI Brass? I bought 8 lbs but haven't had the time to
test with ti yet.

[Junior1942]

Nope, it's a case of Turk ammo I bought when I bought my Turk 38s from J&G Sales a couple of years ago. One of these days I'll pull all the bullets and save the powder. It's a flake powder which burns like 4895. The bullets vary so much I consider them useless. If I ever run out of casting lead--not likely--I'll throw them in the smelting pot.

[jonk]

So far as the 4759 goes, yes, I got it from gibrass. Very good stuff. Wish I had bought 2 jugs instead of just 1.

So far as the turk surplus goes, it runs the gamut from excellant to junk depending on year of manufacture. I never had one spit a primer but have had lots of cracked brass on the necks. I've got one or two guns that shoot it pretty well- and the rest don't.

Incidentally the yugo Mauser is one that doesn't like the turk surplus. It does pretty well with greek and yugo, but not so hot with the turk.

[Ricochet]

I've had good success getting that metal fouling out with capping the muzzle and filling the bore with household ammonia for an hour or so, scrubbing and repeating. I'd use strong ammonia, but the misguided meth cops have forced it off the market for practical purposes. Mighty hard to find.

[10-x]

Have heard that amonia will "take the hardness" out of steel .
Cant remember where I read this(CRS) but may have been The American Rifleman?

I also use it to remove "crud" from barrels but for about 20 minutes max.:drinks:

[Ricochet]

If it does (it doesn't), you'll have the same problem with just about all the commercial copper removers. They're ammonia preparations.

[bcp477]

The commercial "copper removers" are usually on the order of 5 % or so ammonia, which is not enough to do a really quick job of getting the copper out. But, with a bit of time, they will work (they do NOT eliminate all scrubbing, however, whatever they claim). To really strip copper out of a barrel quickly and easily, a solution of about 10 % ammonia, or a bit stronger, is needed. THAT will do the job with no scrubbing. Concentrated ammonia is corrosive, however, so the stories about damaging barrel steel (if the ammonia solution is left in the barrel too long) may well be true - I do not know. However, as Ricochet said, strong ammonia solutions are hard to come by, in any commercial products, at this point. I found, several years ago, a "professional" grade floor stripper solution, which was 20 % ammonia - and let me tell you, that stuff would strip the copper fouling out of a barrel but QUICK ! 5 to 10 minutes was all the time needed - and NO scrubbing. That product is probably not available anymore, I don't know. I found it at a local Grainger Supply location, if that helps. They have an extensive catalog of products, you might try them. I haven't looked for this stuff since then - and as I don't shoot jacketed bullets anymore, I have no need for it myself.

[longbow]

If you check the article here http://www.303british.com/id37.html by David Southall "Cast Bullets in the Lee Enfield Rifle" he has some good tips on using household ammonia to clean out copper fouling and crud. Not to mention the fact that the article is good on its own.

Longbow

[felix]

Need strong ammonia? See your local farming fertilizer store. They even have the anhydrous flavor. ... felix

[10-x]

I would have to dig through my notes on heat treating to find the details on ammonia and how it affects steel, if I could find them?[smilie=1:
Regardless ammonia "full strength" as found in grocery stores and industrial suppy houses (Graingers is great)will damage most barrels if it sits. I will try and find the article about its use.
One may dilute amonia to a workable percentage 10%-20% and try it out.
Ammonia will damage the finish on both the metal and wood so its best to remove the action and grease the muzzle and breech areas . Use a small funnel to pour in the breech end after plugging the muzzle with a wooden dowel.
Wear gloves and try to use it Outside or open the shop /garage door.Be Careful!:drinks:
[/SIZE]

[Ricochet]

Oh yes, if it sits for days on end you'll have corrosion problems eventually. But it'll happen quicker if you put plain water in the bore. The elevated pH of the ammonia solution inhibits steel corrosion. If you're worried about ammonia, you're going to have to steer clear of all the copper removing bore cleaners. You might have a problem with high nickel alloy steels, as ammonia does form a Werner complex with nickel, as it does with copper and zinc. That's handy if you shoot copper-nickel coated jackets, like the old silvery Turkish 8mm ammo.

Ammonium salts, like ammonium chloride, are highly corrosive to steel of course.

[10-x]

Can't find what I was looking for but this should do,
Chapter 14 , pages 334-335 of "Hatcher's Notebook"
"In those days, there was one way in which the high powered military rifles could be kept shooting with any semblance of accuracy, and that was by the frequent and regular use of the standard Ordnance Department Metal Fouling Solution or what was commonly called[U]Ammonia Dope.[U]
Ammonia Persulphate...................................1 ounce
Ammonia Carobnate..................................200 grains
Stronger Ammonia Water...28%....................6 ounces
Water............................................. ................4 ounces
In using this solution the breech of the gun was corked up and a rubber tube was slipped over the muzzle, so that when the barrel was filled the muzzle could be entirely covered with no part of the metal making contaact with the solution and the air at the same time. If this should occur, the solution would attack the barrel at the point where it came in contact with the air, and the barrel would be ruined in a few minutes.
After the barrel was prepared as described above, it was filled with solution and allowed to stand about twenty minutes. The solution was then taken out, and the barrel was quickly dried and oiled.
The solution had to be mixed up fresh for every use, as stale dope was corrosive to the steel. Even in spite of all precautions, the dope would somtimes unaccountably attack the steel and give it a sandblasted appearance, and a rough surface inside, which ruined it.
Moreover, if any of the solution should leak past the cork into the breech mechanism, it was liable to remain there and cause serious rusting".
[/SIZE]

[mto7464]

don't think I will be trying that.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

If you want to clear that bore out well, soak it good in Ed's Red (leave off the lanolin and don't get it on your hands), then scrub that out. Then use a dose of a copper cleaner product, then scrub that out. Repeat each until the bore is free of both types of fouling. I've done this very procedure many times with bores that wouldn't come clean even with electronic cleaners and had great success. The critical part of the procedure is the soaking/dripping patch and letting that soak the bore.

Regards,

Dave

[Ricochet]

That stuff out of Hatcher's Notebook is not ammonia solution. It's a solution of corrosive ammonium salts, like I said above.

[kjg]

Well why not get a product call bore scrubber, or red hed (bass pro brand), called Ultra- clean, and a good bronze brush squirt it liberally on brush slide it into bore action side 5-6 times, put some more on the brush slide it in, scub 5-6 more times and let sit for 10 minuets, you do this and lead fouling comes out as well as all types of copper fouling, now like I do use a soft piece of tissue of papaer toweling and push ithe junk out, you'll see all kinds of yuck come out purple ,green( copper fouling) I dyou this stuff all the time, especially after a dose of forbiden berdan stuff, kills all corrosive salts happy casting. kjg

[Ricochet]

Can't "kill corrosive salts." Got to get it all out!

[eka]

Hey John,

I went to Ace Hardware (I went to the one on Route 19 just out of Abingdon) and had them order me a case of 10% janitor strength ammonia. It is $37.35 for 15 quarts. You can order on their website too. Works great on copper fouling. I add just a tad of kerosene to it, so it will coat the bore better. Seems to work just as good as the 2 ounce bottle of Barnes CR-10 I was paying nearly ten dollars for.

Keith

[Ricochet]

Cool!

I knew Ace Hardware listed it, but hadn't found it in stock. A case is a lifetime supply if it can't leak out.