Question for all the 1911 shooters

[RickinTN]

Hello all,
I have a 14 year old niece who has recently discovered the 1911. We have been shooting a Springfield Gov't model with fixed sights. Our first load was 4.2 grains of Clays with a 200gr. cast rnpf. The point of impact is well below the fixed sights. In order to raise the point of impact should we go to a 230 gr. cast for more bore time? or should we go to a 185 gr. cast for more velocity? Our shooting is at about 15 yards. As I recall the same 1911 shoots factory 230 gr. round nosed jacketed to approximately the sights but we didn't try any this trip and it's been quite a while since I've shot this one.
Thanks in advance for your help, and take care,
Rick

[Merick]

Bore time shouldn't matter, my understanding is the bullet is well clear before unlocking starts. I'd try a 230 to shorten the arc and move the apex back to 15 yards.

[DougGuy]

Bore time will matter. Dwell time allows the muzzle to swing upwards in recoil before unlocking even begins so yes heavier boolit will raise point of impact.

[Kosh75287]

If the pistol will function on it, try 4.0/Clays/200. It may slow the projectile enough that dwell time is increased and the muzzle will rise enough to elevate the point of impact. If that doesn't get you where you want to go, the 230gr. may be the way to go.

[bouncer50]

I been shooting 45 auto for years. Different bullet weights and speed of the bullet shoot at different points on a target. Most 45 shoot 230 ball to almost point of aim. On fix sight guns if the gun shoot high shoot at a 6 oclock hold bottom of the black on the target. If it shoot low 12 oclock hold top of the black.

[Scharfschuetze]

If she's 14, perhaps installing a higher rear sight might be the answer to get the POI to match the aiming point. 230 grain bullets (at ball velocity) are going to kick a bit more than 200 grainers at the same velocity. With the lighter bullet, she could concentrate on better accuracy and be less prone to develop a flinch. Of course she may have nerves of steel, but having trained numerous female soldiers and police officers, I'd opt for the lightest recoil at this point in her shooting career.

[RickinTN]

Thank you for all the input and suggestions. I agree that keeping recoil as low as possible for a young shooter is the way to go. She is a somewhat "slight" young lady at about 5' 2" and 100 pounds, but loves to shoot. Moderate recoil in handguns as well as rifles and shotguns don't seem to bother her. I have another 1911 which has target sights and a lighter spring and as I recall is sighted for a 200 gr. bullet and 3.8 grs Clays. This will probably become her shooter.
As for the Springfield 1911 with fixed sights....I would like for it to shoot to the sights with my loads so I have some 230 gr. truncated cone bullets ready to load and test. I haven't considered changing out the rear sight for a taller one, and that is certainly an option if the heavier bullet doesn't work. We were shooting a 10" gong and it took a hold above 12 o'clock in order to get a hit so I'm thinking I'll need at least 12 inches of correction.
Thanks again, and Happy New Year to all!
Rick

[jcren]

Different poowders also give a different recoil/dwell relationship. My 5" with 200 swc will hit 4" high @15yards with 6.6 grains of hs-6, but right on with 4.4 of red dot.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'll need at least 12 inches of correction.

Doing the math, you'll need a higher rear sight of between .08" to .09" at 25 yards. That's quite a bit of elevation and may be more than a heavier bullet will provide. Testing will tell the story though. Let us know.

Good luck with the project and good on you for getting the next generation started with a great hobby and skill.

[str8wal]

Heavier shoots higher. But 12" is a lot of correction and more bullet weight may not be enough.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

If you're going to stick with that load you could file the front sight down a bit. Problem being, that 1911s with the original pattern front sight don't have that much of a front sight to start with.

Here's a photo of a semi-rare 1911-type pistol that I bought way back in the late '70s called a Vega.
Nice gun, but it had fixed sights and shot much too high--the reverse of your problem. So I tried to make it shoot lower by scrounging and installing an adjustable rear sight, but then it shot much too low, so in frustration I sent it to the makers and in just a couple of weeks they returned it with a new higher front sight and it shot dead on. So, if there's a lesson to the story at all, it might be that you might want or need to change out both sights to get the right combination and the advantage of being able to then adjust your rear sight as needed for other loads.
183815
Click to enlarge.

[cainttype]

12-17-2016, 10:23 AM



Assuming you're not having issues with handling a handgun... A taller rear sight, a shorter front sight, or a combination of both will raise POI.
As for loads... A heavier bullet will typically raise POI, a lighter bullet will generally shoot lower... A faster load will shoot lower (using the same bullet weight), while reducing velocity will typically raise POI.

[Bigslug]

Seems like a PERFECTLY valid reason to invest in an adjustable-sight 9mm Springfield 1911 for the lass.:mrgreen:

[HABCAN]

As long as you are SURE that that little girl is not anticipating the recoil and 'punching the shot' as many youngsters are prone to do with the 1911 first time out. In my experience, MANY newbies experience a very low POI when first shooting 1911's in .45ACP. Just sayin'............

[RickinTN]

Thanks for all the additional input. We both shot and the point of impact was at least similar for both of us. Neither of us are crack shots with a .45 but I would expect to be able to hit the gong consistently at that range myself. We have plans to try both the adjustable sighted pistol with lighter loads as well as the same one with 230 grain bullets on Tuesday. I expect she will enjoy the lighter loads in the target gun as well as being able to hit where she aims.
Thanks again,
Rick

[RickinTN]

12-17-2016, 10:23 AM



Assuming you're not having issues with handling a handgun... A taller rear sight, a shorter front sight, or a combination of both will raise POI.
As for loads... A heavier bullet will typically raise POI, a lighter bullet will generally shoot lower... A faster load will shoot lower (using the same bullet weight), while reducing velocity will typically raise POI.



Hello There my Friend!

The above is what I think I've always understood but until now haven't had the opportunity to apply it myself. I'm a little rusty on my 1911 stuff as my rememberer isn't what it used to be and it's been several years since I've worked with them.
Take care,
Rick

[Lloyd Smale]

just slow down your existing load. drop it to 3 grains of clays. It may mean changing out your recoil spring to a lighter poundage one though

[45workhorse]

Flat or arched mainspring housing? Arched will help some.

[cainttype]

Hello There my Friend!

The above is what I think I've always understood but until now haven't had the opportunity to apply it myself. I'm a little rusty on my 1911 stuff as my rememberer isn't what it used to be and it's been several years since I've worked with them.
Take care,
Rick

Glad to see you mentoring yet another newbie, my friend... I'm sure you'll have things squared away shortly.
Lloyd's suggestion of maybe needing a lighter recoil spring is something to keep handy if you go the slower load/ less powder route... Sudden stove-piping and failures to feed will tell you when you need it.
Have a great New Year! :)

[Scharfschuetze]

The earlier post about children shooting lower than adults got me to thinking as it's often true. Normally a petite shooter's POI will be higher than a larger person due to less mass behind the gun. Physics just demand that it shoot higher in this case.

What may be happening here is that she is anticipating the shot and she is dropping the muzzle just before firing. Of course recoil covers this up for most observers as well as the shooter. Let me suggest that you hand her the 45 Auto with an empty chamber and tell her that it is loaded. Watch the handgun closely as she fires or dry fires in this case. I'll bet dimes to donuts that you will see her drop the muzzle at the instant the hammer falls. We called this ball and dummy training in the military and the PD and it reveals a variety of problems for a coach/instructor. It quickly brings home, even to the most macho of male shooters, that they are anticipating the recoil or report of the handgun.

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK all this talk about loads and bullet weights is fine,,, BUT,,,, What does her grip look like? If her grip on the gun is not up to par, then you are wasting your time changing loads or modifying the gun because the foundations of her shooting are not in place. she has nothing to build her skills on.

The 4 most important facets of pistol shooting are Grip/Stance, Trigger Control, and Sight Alignment. Without the first two in place the second two can't be obtained.

Her grip on a 1911 should have her firing hand as high as possible on the grip frame with her thumb on top of, and riding the safety.

Her support hand should be wrapped around her firing hand fingers and the heels of her hands should meet at the rear of the gun and her support hand thumb should be behind or on top of her other thumb on top of the safety.

I realize this sounds like a lot of stuff to cram into a shooting lesson however without this firmly in place Sight Alignment and Trigger Control will never be right. The grip and stance are the basic foundations of pistol shooting. The other two things come into play after the grip and stance are in place.

If she is taught correctly from the get go she will progress up the ladder and become a great pistol shooter.

If you can't get her to a Shooting School like Front Sight or the Sig Academy which is closer to you,, then it would be a really good Idea to buy a Dry Practice Manual for pistols from www.frontsight.com (http://www.frontsight.com) It explains all of this stuff in detail and would be a good foundation which she could build on to improve her shooting skills.

Trying to compensate for the lack of fundamentals with mods to the gun or ammo is pointless and won't get her anywhere but frustrated, and lack of interest will follow. Success builds Confidence,,, which increases interest and motivation.

At least go to the website above and see what they are offering. I have seen many hundreds of young people at this venue and they all have a smile on their face the whole time! Others will back me up on this point.

Professional training is the best way to learn this stuff.

Randy