modifying FMJ bullets

[Oklahoma Rebel]

has any one ever tried grinding the tip off of a traditional cup and core FMJ bullet for hunting? if it is done evenly so that it spins without wobble, I think it would be ok, but I am just wondering about performance, as to wether it would mushroom, separate, or just plain shatter or fall apart? thankyou, Travis

[jcren]

Many fmj are open at the back. Heard stories of guys flat pointing surplus 06 ammo and the core being pushed out and jacket left in the barrel.

[cuzinbruce]

It has been done before. Some things to watch out for are armor piercing, with a steel core. Other nasties like tracers, incendiary. Some of the FMJ's have an open bottom, the lead core shows on the base. How it will all work depends on the particular FMJ ammo you are talking about. They might or might not be worthwhile. Don't forget that FMJ's were not designed to expand and might have quite a thick jacket. My advice would be to just buy regular softpoints to load hunting ammo with. They don't have to be the most expensive ones to work OK.
That is my 2 cents on the matter.
Good Luck!

[DanishM1Garand]

I've seen bullets swaged turning a FMJ with a lead base into a lead point bullet. I did not fire them and have no idea if they would expand. Elmer Keith talked about loading pulled FMJ bullets backward during WW2 as other bullets were unavailible for hunting.

Bulk bullets for hunting and plinking are cheap enough.

[Outpost75]

Truth be told, the performance FMJ military bullets on game is quite good, without attempting any changes. Illegal almost everywhere, but if circumstances were such that I had to feed my family and it was use it or starve, I would not worry about bullet performance.

http://www.ciar.org/ttk/mbt/papers/misc/paper.x.small-arms.wounding-ballistics.patterns_of_military_rifle_bullets.fack ler.unk.html

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

[btreanor]

I would avoid turning around FMJ bullets to show the exposed base because it will greatly increase chamber pressures due to the geometry of the very long "boat tail" you've created.

[Hamish]

I would avoid turning around FMJ bullets to show the exposed base because it will greatly increase chamber pressures due to the geometry of the very long "boat tail" you've created.

Ive read of base first loadings as far back as World War I.

Could you please explain how this would increase chamber pressure? Since pressure fills a space evenly throughout a given space, I am having trouble understanding your premise.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I've seen bullets swaged turning a FMJ with a lead base into a lead point bullet. I did not fire them and have no idea if they would expand. Elmer Keith talked about loading pulled FMJ bullets backward during WW2 as other bullets were unavailible for hunting.

Bulk bullets for hunting and plinking are cheap enough.

Both of these may be possibilities, but I wouldn't try to swage a pointed tip (where the jacket is often thicker than elsewhere) into the middle of a flat base. I think it should work well if your die punch has a deep pimple, to leave a reduced diameter point in the middle of the flat base. As for simply reversing the bullet, I have heard of it being done in war by those who wanted to increase wounding effect - foreigners and that sort - and also to have a better chance of penetrating sniper shields. The latter, if it works at all, I think would only do be superior if the angle of impact was oblique. I would guess that it would benefit from close matching of bullet to groove diameter.

I don't think the core is liable to leave the jacket behind if only a little is removed, and that might be enough for considerable improvement. After all, the turned-over rim of the jacket is likely to have as much area as the exposed lead. But I would want to test a good many, either looking through the bore every time or seeing a new hole on target, before I risked rapid fire.

[btreanor]

Hamish:

1. Depending on the throat and the geometry (ogive) of the bullet, seating a bullet backwards might very well require that more of the bullet be held within the case. The net result being a bullet seated deeper which will increase chamber pressure. And who publishes data on the OAL of cartridges with bullets seated backwards?

2. Because it's been done before with poor (unsafe) results. His explanation about how the gases expand on the base of the bullet at the beginning of the video makes sense. If you watch toward the end of the video, you can see that he flattened primers and cracked cases:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/09/robert-farago/backwards-bullets-try/

[Geezer in NH]

I have never had that effect from reversing bullets I call bull on it from my own experience.

[btreanor]

I hope it works well for you. I just don't think it's a good idea, but to each his own...

[Geezer in NH]

Nd I think diff know what you mean

[Kosh75287]

I just wouldn't. Too little pay off and way too much risk.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

in my opinion, bad idea. To many other options available.
CF

[barrabruce]

Apparently
If you grind a spoon shaped notch out the side of the tip they will still fly straight enough and that will induce yaw through the tip collapsing to one side when it hits something.
Never tried it thou as I have no pointy jacket bullets to try


And you know how reliable statements are that start with apparently
:roll:

[Ballistics in Scotland]

In theory you would get a tight but perhaps acceptably sized corkscrew path, as the effect operates on each side in turn. It would have to be a very small spoon-shaped irregularity, or it could induce a serious wobble, in which case nobody can tell what might happen.

Streamlining the rear of a bullet to a much greater degree than the boat-tails we know is such an obvious measure that there must be some good reason why we aren't all doing it. I can see three sources of harm from a long ogive at the back.

1. As already mentioned, the long intrusion into the powder space and short case neck grip on the bullet.

2. Pressure acts at right angles to the surface on which it operates, and therefore more sideways than forwards. There will be less tendency for the bullet, if it is an imperfect fit, to upset and seal the bore.

3. If the bullet oscillates in flight, I think the oscillation will build up worse and worse, to become tail-wagging. Again the effect is likely to be widening corkscrewing.

[5.7 MAN]

I'm pretty sure Elmer Keith wrote about loading FMJ bullets backwards for use on game. I doubt swapping ends with a 150 grain FMJ in a 30-06 would make much difference pressure wise.

[rondog]

I'm reasonably certain that if you put an FMJ in the right place(s), you'll easily have venison in the freezer.

[uncle dino]

A typical Fmj bullet shape can be changed in a swage die..even hollow pointed..without any trouble. Pistol calibers would be better to do, if hollow pointing. Punches are typically larger and stronger. D

[Chihuahua Floyd]

Rounding,
While the FMJ will kill, it is not considered a stopping round. You may kill something, but chances are you will not find it. Unless you hit the spine or brain. FMJ works more like an click, usually zero expansion, wound channel closes up, no or very little blood trail unless you hit a major bone.
You can kill, but doubt you will have meat to show for it.
There are so Manny better bullets available it's not worth it.
CF

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I'm reasonably certain that if you put an FMJ in the right place(s), you'll easily have venison in the freezer.

I'm sure you will. It is just that FMJ makes the right place smaller.

After lengthy meditation, and looking at a large drum of clones of the Swedish military spitzer bullet, I believe I can see a couple of ways of preventing the core blowing through the jacket. The easy way, if the neck is tight enough to grip it, is just to put an inverted gas-check behind the bullet.

Or you could file the tips till you get the smallest possible hole in the jacket at the tip. Then put them in a screwtop can of water-soluble soldering flux, with a lot of air over it. Heat it to boiling or very close, then screw the top on tightly and let it cool. The can will buckle inwards, and any air between jacket the core will be sucked out at one end or the other, and replaced with flux.

You can heat it again if you want to be surer of penetration, but don't go to sleep or anything, or you will be rudely awakened. A friend's wife once told me how to make excellent crème caramel by simmering an unopened can of condensed milk for six hours. But the silly woman forgot the warning I have wisely given you, and an oval saucepan and a patch of ceiling that grew black mould every winter was what I got.

Then stick the bullets point-down in clay, or otherwise stop the lead leaking out, and heat them until the lead melts and solders itself in place. Afterwards complete the shortening of the point. Or if you use a tree-shaped carbide burr to make bullet-shaped holes in a block of aluminium, you might be able to do the shortening in one operation, and get professional-looking softpoints.

[historicfirearms]

I was with a friend one night killing problem deer at an airport. He wanted to use his new 223 and all he had for ammo was fmj. I would have never believed this if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes. He shot a doe right through the skull behind the eye and below the ear hole. The deer dropped in its tracks for about 15 seconds. While we were walking up to the deer to take care of it, it popped up on its feet, took a few steps and started Eating Grass! I could clearly see the bullet hole and blood pouring from its head. Friend put another fmj through the vitals and the deer ran off never to be found. We tracked it close to a mile before we lost sign. Never again will I use fmj ammo for hunting or killing.

[Leslie Sapp]

Many years ago when soft nosed M-1 rounds were hard to find, we would take a triangle file and cut an "X" in the end of a FMJ M-1 carbine round. Kinda looked like some of the modern pistol self defense rounds. It worked pretty good on deer and hogs. Very few shots were available over fifty yards, so we weren't all that concerned with accuracy.

With what we have available to us today, I'd have to be pretty desperate to do that now.

[woodbutcher]

:) Maybe a month or so ago,there was a video that I watched concerning the backwards bullets.The people doing the tests shot at IIRC 1/2" steel plate.Those backwards bullets sure made some real pretty round holes in the plate.Looked like they were almost a drilled hole.These tests were run after a show about WW1 trench warfare and how the Germans and the British dealt with snipers that were using steel plate protection to slip their rifles through to fire at the enemy.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[Texas by God]

My brothers and I would cut the tips off 8mm fmj with side cutters. Ugly but accurate as the ones we carefully filed or ground off. Killed deer right now and never had a core slip. Same thing with .223s except used those for varmint only. I wouldn't worry about it. Best, Thomas.

[dale2242]

Using FMJ ammo in original or any altered form to hunt in Oregon is totally illegal....dale

[Fenring]

has any one ever tried grinding the tip off of a traditional cup and core FMJ bullet for hunting? if it is done evenly so that it spins without wobble, I think it would be ok, but I am just wondering about performance, as to wether it would mushroom, separate, or just plain shatter or fall apart? thankyou, Travis

Yeah, done it plenty of times with surplus 7.62X54 and .303 FMJ ammo.

I just grind the tip until I can see a pinpoint of core material, and run a small drill about 2mm into the nose to create a hollow to let tissue in to upset the bullet. I've tried just grinding without the drilling, performance on game (hogs) was less reliable.

[Digital Dan]

FMJ bullets been killin' elephants, rhinos, people and such for quite a spell, loaded pointy end up. I rather imagine it is quicker to cast bullets than modify FMJs.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ok, so I acquired a box of probably rrussian steel case berdan primed 124 gr hollow points, anyone used them on deer or test medium? I don't know if they will violently explode or work perfectly, but it is better than trying the aforementioned experiment, probably wasn't the best idea anyways,

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I love hearing you guys' stories, they are all very interesting,, sometimes I ask questions that might not seem that important to others, but I truly like reading what you guys think. so thankyou for indulging me

[Oklahoma Rebel]

and I also always learn something, like shooting a deer in the head with a fmj 223 will give it the munchies! lol

[MT Gianni]

I tried making a flat nose of the 311413 with a 6.5 Rem mag trim die in the early 90's. As even as I could get loaded ammo with a trim die they grouped all over, accuracy was better with the standard 413.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

i'll be testing these hollowpoints in wet newspaper probably tomorrow, I want to know the are tough and are going to penetrate before I shoot a deer or hog!. I have 8 softpoints left from deer season, but with holiday doe season coming up, I plan on loading the rifle so it shoots a sp first then a hp alternating. that way they will last longer, I will put them in order on stripper clips for ease and speed f loading, and so I don't lose any! lol

[turtlezx]

Iam with FENRING do the same for the sks fmj ammo work well on white tails

plus shoot to the same place. where most any bullet change will alter point of impact with the light barrel of the sks

cast boolits are 9" away from fmjs @100 yards

[Ballistics in Scotland]

FMJ bullets been killin' elephants, rhinos, people and such for quite a spell, loaded pointy end up. I rather imagine it is quicker to cast bullets than modify FMJs.

Plenty of the old-time elephant hunters who used smallbore rifles - the best example is WDM Bell, who killed 1011 elephant and wrote the book on it - used the same FMJ bullets to hunt smaller game for camp meat. But they were round nosed FMJ, heavy and slow by present-day standards, which makes a very great difference.

In the early years of the nineteenth century those round-nosed bullets were considered a great advance in humanity in war. In South Africa (a less humid and infective environment than Cuba), it wasn't unusual for a bullet wound which didn't break bone or harm a vital organ to simply be bandaged and heal on the march - although it was generally a horse that did the marching. That is nearly inconceivable nowadays. Even bone was more likely to be cleanly broken or pierced, rather than badly shattered. Armies and individual soldiers alike don't need the enemy dead or wounded. In hospital and taking his pension meets their requirements.

Bullets, like generalship, are best judged not by the best they can do (in the sense of doing it to the opposition), but by the worst. Those bullets were consistent. Spitzer bullets, as developed shortly before WW1, were far more likely to tumble. They might produce very extensive devitalising (a nice word for killing) of tissues surrounding their track, almost certain to infect unless removed by a surgeon. Or they might take an extremely unpredictable path. They are all more likely to break up, at least at the tip, than most people think. This was part of the design philosophy behind the early, light-bullet Armalite rifles, to obtain adequate wounding effect, and to some extent still is.

I wouldn't be surprised if the bullet described by historicfirearms took some unpredictable path after hitting. I've had the experience of putting a rimfire bullet through one ear of a European brown hare (a close relative of the jackrabbit), which reacted pretty much like anyone would. But they always circle back to their own territory (which part of what gives beagles a chance), and in minutes it was back and grazing again. They and deer are of very limited intelligence, and they have spent millions of years evolving to fit dangers which can be forgotten as soon as pursuit is shaken off. Mind you, I know of a Boer War soldier insisting that he had been hit on the forehead by gravel, and there was nothing the matter with him, when he in fact had a Mauser bullet lodged inside the back of his skull. A similarly injured US soldier spent many years working in the Manila post office.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

my grandfather was in the navy and was stationed in manila, phillipines, my mom, who is 61, was about 8? remembers 2-3 different occasions of large pythons coming in their yard, but my favorite story was when their schoolbus hit a "speedbump" in the road on the way to school, and it was a snake stretched across the road, she said it still slithered away, so must have been a big powerful snake, still died though, I'm sure. she still has a fear of snakes, I don't balme her!

[RoyEllis]

........... but with holiday doe season coming up....
You MIGHT want to re-read your hunting regs, Okla holiday antlerless season was Dec 16 -25, it's closed and a capitol way to end up in jail & your guns confiscated, not to mention losing hunting rights for a period of time!

[Texas by God]

I experimented with inverted 196 8x57 fmj bullets with no pressure problems evident. The problem was lack of accuracy because weight forward projectiles aren't ideal. Sort of shuttlecock-ish. IMO the base of a bullet affects accuracy more than the tip does. Best, Thomas.

[45workhorse]

I would have to look at the box again. I have a die that, you run a loaded round up in it and has a hole in the top so you can drill a hollow point in it.
It has been a few years since I have looked at it, will have to find it and post a picture of it.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

ok......

[Oklahoma Rebel]

thaats BS,it has been in January for years! I know because I always had to buy a new hunting license for that year!i even checked it a couple months aggo, and it said January, now its dec. now im po'd

[warboar_21]

When I was in the Army and on range detail I experimented with grinding off the tips to see if they would expand. We shot a few water jugs but were never able to capture the bullet. They always veered off course and off to who knows where.
The 55gr XM193 fragmented really well in the first couple of jugs that we shot them into. That surprised me and my friends. But if you look up XM193 fragmenting there has been many reports on it so it's not a fluke. Just need to be close and keep the velocity up.

[azrednek]

For what it is worth and back to the OP's question. About 71 or 72 I used to buy foreign surplus 06 ammo. The FMJ tips were removed and it appeared to have been done by acid. There was always some swelling of the lead core on top and corrosion of the copper jacket near the tip of the bullet.

I shot hundreds of them and never had a problem. The ammo came in blue and white boxes with if I recall right an Interarms label. The best thing and remember this was early 70's. The ammo was $2.00 per box. Every now and then we'd shoot one that traced.

Bought the ammo from a pawn shop in downtown Phoenix. Anybody living here during that era I'm sure remembers the Jewell Box.

[JimP.]

I have used FMJ 7.62 x 39 rounds in a SKS to kill wild dogs. the lethality of the FMJ bullets were awesome. Remember that the Russian round has a hollow spot in the tip which helps the bullet yaw upon impact and the bullet will tumble and if it doesn't exit will be found base forward. This is the way it was designed. In my 30-06 M1 Garand, I use M2 ball ammo for practice only. I load 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips at the same velocity as the ball ammo and the rifle is most definitely a killer. I haven't used M2 ball ammo on game but have shot wild dogs and it will kill them easily just like the SKS ball ammo, not quite as destructive. If i had to use M2 ball ammo for hunting i would shoot to break large bones, that would be very lethal. The state of Georgia a few years ago had a huge problem with packs of wild dogs and encouraged hunters to help with the problem. JimP.

[Frank V]

FMJ bullets been killin' elephants, rhinos, people and such for quite a spell, loaded pointy end up. I rather imagine it is quicker to cast bullets than modify FMJs.


Bingo! There is a reason a lot of PHs (Professional Hunters) in Africa use solids aka FMJs. They are charged with saving a clients bacon if things go south. They are used for stopping dangerous game before it gets to the client or PH.
I'd check regulations before I used them on game here in the states, might not be legal in your area. I feel a good big heavy FP cast bullet will penetrate well & break boned in the process. I do live in Grizzly country but use JSPs. However if I run out of them I'll use a good hard cast bullet with a wide flat point.

[Texas by God]

I remember the Interarms ammo! I bought a box with a 7mm 93 Mauser from White's Auto in the early 70's. The FMJs used for hunting are round nose or blunt tipped- not the pointed military type. Best, Thomas

[azrednek]

I remember the Interarms ammo! I bought a box with a 7mm 93 Mauser from White's Auto in the early 70's. The FMJs used for hunting are round nose or blunt tipped- not the pointed military type. Best, Thomas

Thomas the 06 I was shooting was originally pointed. Some showed marks indicating it was originally linked. Can't recall for certain the country of origin but I think it was French surplus. I can recall my brother buying either a 93 or 95 Spanish rifle in the early 70's. The surplus ammo he got with it was FMJ round nose without an exposed lead tip. Not knowing any better he used it to take a desert Muley.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

sorry about the angry messages earlier, they weren't directed at the person who made me aware of the season change, I didn't get a deer during reg deer gun, because all public land was crowded, so I was looking forward to getting some meat, again I apologize for the posts. thank you all for the interesting info, it sound like I am not the first person to think of modifying fmj's!

[azrednek]

I have used FMJ 7.62 x 39 rounds in a SKS to kill wild dogs. the lethality of the FMJ bullets were awesome. . JimP.

Jumping a bit off subject.

About 4 or 5 years ago I met a cattle rancher that was having a big problem with feral dogs, coyotes and whats often named here as coy-dogs. Ranch was located near the Heber-Overguaard are of central Arizona. Dogs and coyotes were running in packs killing his cattle. Many of the dogs were dumped by the nearby city dwellers. Nature took its coarse and the dogs had to find food.

The Rancher was using a SKS with mil-surp ammo. He claimed Az G&F gave him the ok to use any ammo except tracers. G&F also waved the mag limit. The rancher was offering a bounty of $20 for the first and 10 for each additional.

As I was leaving I drove right up to a pack of dogs but just couldn't bring myself to shoot them. About half looked like typical pets the rest appeared to have been bred from coyotes and pet dogs. Right in the middle of the pack was a tame looking German Shepard with a collar. He was likely lost by some campers.

[M-Tecs]

I know of one credible account of a jacket staying in the bore resulting in a bulged barrel.

During the 70's and early 80's I shot lots of fox and coyotes with both FMJ's and expanding bullets in a 243 Win. Shot two deer and one antelope with the 243 using FMJ's (two hit by cars and they were crawling away with broken hind legs or back. The other one had the hind leg shot off during late muzzle loading season and yes I am aware that it is illegal). Compared to the performance of shooting with deer with expanding ammo the FMJ's faired poorly.

If the bullet tumbles they work very well. If they don't and you don't hit the brain or spine not so much. I lost to many fox and coyotes using FMJ's. The losses cost me more than the increased pelt damage from expanding ammo.

I have native American friends that love 55 grain ball 5.56 out of a 12 twist AR for Elk, moose and Caribou. They claim a couple of quick shots in the lungs works very well. They also claim 62 grain Ball out of a 7 twist barrels doesn't cut it. I have seen deer shot with 303 British using Ball FMJ's. Performance was poor.

In 2004 I shot a medium size 4 X 4 mule deer. I was using a 270 Win with bullets designed for much heavier game. I doubled lunged the buck three times and he still went 3/4 of a mile. He was standing at a fence. He was too weak to cross but still being on his feet he required a fourth shot through the neck. There was no sign that any of the three in the chest expanded. The next year same rifle but using more appropriate bullets the same shot placement produced three bang flops.

My 338 Win Mag using 210 Partition was the hammer of Thor. Using the old 275 grain Speers on deer was not very impressive.

I am not a fan of FMJ's on game. In the right combination were the bullet tumble easily they can work well.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

I could NOT bring myself to shoot a dog, tame or wild, unless it was actually in the act of hurting our animals. even then I would feel bad. I mean they probably got dumped, and are just doing what god programmed them to do. I also think god put dogs here for the purpose of companionship. my dog, Daisy, was probably dumped out here, thank god she came to my door, she has been my best friend since then, and she has helped comfort me through some very hard times. I love her so much. so like I said, if you kill dogs because they are killing animals, its sad, but must be done, I understand and would do the same. as far as wild dogs, I would try a shelter or the humane society first, some may have been pets, and given a chance, could be rehabilitated, as far as the ones that cant, humane euthanasia is the only option.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I know of one credible account of a jacket staying in the bore resulting in a bulged barrel.

During the 70's and early 80's I shot lots of fox and coyotes with both FMJ's and expanding bullets in a 243 Win. Shot two deer and one antelope with the 243 using FMJ's (two hit by cars and they were crawling away with broken hind legs or back. The other one had the hind leg shot off during late muzzle loading season and yes I am aware that it is illegal). Compared to the performance of shooting with deer with expanding ammo the FMJ's faired poorly.

If the bullet tumbles they work very well. If they don't and you don't hit the brain or spine not so much. I lost to many fox and coyotes using FMJ's. The losses cost me more than the increased pelt damage from expanding ammo.

I have native American friends that love 55 grain ball 5.56 out of a 12 twist AR for Elk, moose and Caribou. They claim a couple of quick shots in the lungs works very well. They also claim 62 grain Ball out of a 7 twist barrels doesn't cut it. I have seen deer shot with 303 British using Ball FMJ's. Performance was poor.

In 2004 I shot a medium size 4 X 4 mule deer. I was using a 270 Win with bullets designed for much heavier game. I doubled lunged the buck three times and he still went 3/4 of a mile. He was standing at a fence. He was too weak to cross but still being on his feet he required a fourth shot through the neck. There was no sign that any of the three in the chest expanded. The next year same rifle but using more appropriate bullets the same shot placement produced three bang flops.

My 338 Win Mag using 210 Partition was the hammer of Thor. Using the old 275 grain Speers on deer was not very impressive.

I am not a fan of FMJ's on game. In the right combination were the bullet tumble easily they can work well.

I know one account from a reliable source of a bore irregularity, thought to be producing mediocre but not disastrous accuracy, which turned out to be a ring bulge filled with a bullet jacket, which had been worn by many shots until it bore a pretty fair replica of the rifling. Since the way I understand ring bulges, they happen forward of where the obstruction was, but right at the back of where the following bullet base is when the pressure wave catches up. So I don't think that jacket was the one that caused the bulge. My guess is that someone had fired a number of bullets with the front of the core more widely exposed than anybody is advocating here. I wish I knew whether there was a period during which the accuracy was much worse.

Spire point military bullets sometimes work well, but often don't. I have seen photographs suggesting that both 5.56mm. and 7.62x39 depend on breaking up and tumbling for much of their effectiveness. Indeed it seems somewhat hypocritical to claim they comply with the Geneva Convention.

I think the .303 MkVII may have been the first to have a lightweight filler in the tip, and it was certainly among the first. It was usually aluminium in peacetime, since it was introduced around the time aluminium, smelted by specially set-up hydroelectric schemes, got a lot cheaper. But tenite plastic and papier-mâché were also used.

Sir Sidney Smith, a pioneering forensic pathologist, worked in a teaching hospital in Egypt in the 1920s, and was invited to examine the bodies of some rioters, and confirm that they had shot one another with pistols - which was eccentric behaviour even by Egyptian standards. He found several papier-mâché cones which much resembled the aluminium .303 fillers with which he was familiar. His conclusion was that they had been shot by soldiers. He also wrote to the War Office and reported what he thought was a production shortcut by a contractor, and a possible bacteriological danger. He received a replay saying that it had been an authorised wartime substitute, and great care was taken to sterilize the material in manufacture, so that it would be no worse than getting shot in the normal way. It would be much worse than the heavy, round-nosed MkVI, though.

Of course an expanding bullet is pretty much like a FMJ unless it expands. I know that 275gr. Speer well, although I sized them down to .330 for the 8x60R Portuguese. It is extremely solid, and not as inclined to tumble as some. It should be excellent for elk, buffalo or large bears, but I can indeed imagine it failing to expand on deer. I think a lot of people use bullets which don't, and if they place the bullet well, never know it matters.

[45workhorse]

My mistake it does not go in a press. You hold it in your hand. Have not tried it out yet..
185243185244185245

[Oklahoma Rebel]

have you tried your hollow pointing jig whatchamacallit-thingamajig doohickey yet? interested to know how it works, someone needs to make a smalldevice with a 30 cal hole with a centered drill bit in the bottom, maybe 1/8th of an inch long, so you can put your boolit in there and turn it by hand. I am thinking of trying to make something like that.

[Good Cheer]

From what I've read in WW1 FMJ ammo got altered and if the Germans caught you with a file it didn't go well.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

huh, that doesn't surprise me, I know that there are various weapons in every war that will bring you unwanted attention if caught, in a not very good way, like the Ithaca (spl?) 12ga in WWII

[Frank V]

From what I've read in WW1 FMJ ammo got altered and if the Germans caught you with a file it didn't go well.


That happened in WW2 also. I had a friend who fought in the Pacific during WW2 he said some soldiers carried side cutters & would snip the point off the FMJ issue ammo. He also said you didn't want to get captured with side cutters.

[Doc1]

my grandfather was in the navy and was stationed in manila, phillipines, my mom, who is 61, was about 8? remembers 2-3 different occasions of large pythons coming in their yard, but my favorite story was when their schoolbus hit a "speedbump" in the road on the way to school, and it was a snake stretched across the road, she said it still slithered away, so must have been a big powerful snake, still died though, I'm sure. she still has a fear of snakes, I don't balme her!

Interesting you should mention a school bus running over a snake without (apparently) fatal effect. Vehicle weight can produce unexpected results. When I was fourteen YO and on my first street-legal motorcycle I used to wear an old pair of leather welders gloves in the winter. One afternoon I was behind a pickup truck at a stop light. The light changed and the truck began a right-hand turn. For whatever reason, the truck stopped midway through his turn and I hit his rear bumper. I went flying over the truck's bed and landed spread-eagled with my left hand in the middle lane of the highway. At that moment an 18-wheeler's front tractor tire ran over my extended and flattened hand! I quickly pulled it away before the rear tires could roll over it and expected to see nothing but hand pulp in that glove. The tire treads had left deep imprints in the suede leather!

I got up and ran to the side of the road, where I gingerly felt the gloved hand. No pain! Then I slowly pulled the glove off and could see no damage to the hand and I started to move my fingers. Again, no pain and everything worked. I balled the hand into a fist. Again, everything worked. The bottom line was that the incident did no damage whatsoever to my hand and I (rather sheepishly) moved my bike to the side of the road, got it started and continued on my way. After all these years, I still have trouble believing that it really happened and that it did no damage to the fingers/hand!

Best regards
Doc

[Oklahoma Rebel]

hmm... maybe the weight was spread out just enough.. or you had an angel riding along with you, either way, you are lucky, I ride to and the welding gloves do work pretty well for warmth, not so much for dexterity though. I usually wear them if it in the 40's or less.

[jsn]

I do remember a story from years ago about an Alaskan wildlife officer that was going to kill a rogue bear that had "treed" a town. He ground or hacksawed an X on the point of armour piercers before going hunting for it.

It didn't go well for him from what I remember.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

yeah...... on armor piercing ammo, nothing is going to help, aren't they steel core? some of my mosin nagant ammo is copper-clad steel, it will shoot almost 1/2 inch of steel, might even do that, I just don't have thicker steel

[badbob454]

for what it is worth i have ground the tips off fmj bullets just enough to expose the lead tested for accuracy and it was great.

[sw282]

A few years back on a HOT prairie dog shoot l ran out of ammo.. Was on private land and the owner had some 223 FMJ

Surplus ammo... They did the job quite well.. Even got to see the ''RED MIST'' a couple times when the wind wasn't

blowing too hard:drinks:

[Texas by God]

Jumping a bit off subject.

About 4 or 5 years ago I met a cattle rancher that was having a big problem with feral dogs, coyotes and whats often named here as coy-dogs. Ranch was located near the Heber-Overguaard are of central Arizona. Dogs and coyotes were running in packs killing his cattle. Many of the dogs were dumped by the nearby city dwellers. Nature took its coarse and the dogs had to find food.

The Rancher was using a SKS with mil-surp ammo. He claimed Az G&F gave him the ok to use any ammo except tracers. G&F also waved the mag limit. The rancher was offering a bounty of $20 for the first and 10 for each additional.

As I was leaving I drove right up to a pack of dogs but just couldn't bring myself to shoot them. About half looked like typical pets the rest appeared to have been bred from coyotes and pet dogs. Right in the middle of the pack was a tame looking German Shepard with a collar. He was likely lost by some campers.
I killed two dogs with collars that I caught in the act of killing a calf that my son was bottle feeding because it's mother rejected it. My son was 8 years old at the time and cried aii day. If the collars had the owners info on them, the sheriff & I would have delivered the bodies home & I would have demanded restitution. I love dogs(I have 5) but would kill any without hesitation if they attack livestock. People get their dream house & 5 acres and a big dog or two then let them roam free. And that's what happens.

[Fenring]

yeah...... on armor piercing ammo, nothing is going to help, aren't they steel core? some of my mosin nagant ammo is copper-clad steel, it will shoot almost 1/2 inch of steel, might even do that, I just don't have thicker steel

I've modded some of those - the jacket will still peel off and the partial lead core will still fly apart. So when modified they will still be more effective than when unmodified.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

From what I've read in WW1 FMJ ammo got altered and if the Germans caught you with a file it didn't go well.

Like many a thing in war, you hear of what was probably the act of a tiny minority. I have a mental image of my grandfather having to argue for his life over his issue hoof-rasp which I still have, from the days when the artillery had hooves. Murdering someone for a file is about on a par with seeking to inflict gruesome injuries on someone who is going home with a rifle-bullet wound anyway. Two hearts that beat as one. My grandfather's ancient friends, as unsuperstitious as anyone could be back home, genuinely believed that if a soldier tried "conscript tricks" Mr. Luck would get him.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

As I was leaving I drove right up to a pack of dogs but just couldn't bring myself to shoot them. About half looked like typical pets the rest appeared to have been bred from coyotes and pet dogs. Right in the middle of the pack was a tame looking German Shepard with a collar. He was likely lost by some campers.

If you own the animals or sympathise with someone who does, like Don Vito Corleone used to say, it isn't personal, just business. It has to be done. There is no dog worse with sheep than a border collie gone wrong, for he just can't bear to leave them alone.

Still, if you had a vacancy for a dog, he might well have been willing to quit a life of crime. I put a bit more faith in it than the rehabilitation of human gang members.

[OS OK]

has any one ever tried grinding the tip off of a traditional cup and core FMJ bullet for hunting? if it is done evenly so that it spins without wobble, I think it would be ok, but I am just wondering about performance, as to wether it would mushroom, separate, or just plain shatter or fall apart? thankyou, Travis

Here's an interesting tidbit of side information that might interest you . . . or not?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-49-damaged-bullet-accuracy-and-the-box-o-truth/

[Grapeshot]

A FMJ pointed bullet with a FLAT base will tumble through an animal, or human, and create a massive wound cavity. The Germans protested against the American use of such bullets in the 1st WW because of that phenomenon. The front of the bullet would slow down when it hit the flesh, while the back end was still moving hat high velocity and begin to yaw and start to tumble through the soldier. Does the same to deer, et al. Not to sure as to the effectiveness on larger animals.

[Elkins45]

I'm sure you will. It is just that FMJ makes the right place smaller.

After lengthy meditation, and looking at a large drum of clones of the Swedish military spitzer bullet, I believe I can see a couple of ways of preventing the core blowing through the jacket. The easy way, if the neck is tight enough to grip it, is just to put an inverted gas-check behind the bullet.

Or you could file the tips till you get the smallest possible hole in the jacket at the tip. Then put them in a screwtop can of water-soluble soldering flux, with a lot of air over it. Heat it to boiling or very close, then screw the top on tightly and let it cool. The can will buckle inwards, and any air between jacket the core will be sucked out at one end or the other, and replaced with flux.

You can heat it again if you want to be surer of penetration, but don't go to sleep or anything, or you will be rudely awakened. A friend's wife once told me how to make excellent crème caramel by simmering an unopened can of condensed milk for six hours. But the silly woman forgot the warning I have wisely given you, and an oval saucepan and a patch of ceiling that grew black mould every winter was what I got.

Then stick the bullets point-down in clay, or otherwise stop the lead leaking out, and heat them until the lead melts and solders itself in place. Afterwards complete the shortening of the point. Or if you use a tree-shaped carbide burr to make bullet-shaped holes in a block of aluminium, you might be able to do the shortening in one operation, and get professional-looking softpoints.

That is very clever....but when compared to the option of just buying suitable bullets I will happily just pay the extra.

[Big Boomer]

Hollow-pointing or otherwise altering FMJ bullets may be unwise and is most certainly unwarranted, besides being needless. However ... there are always those guys who like to experiment and ask "What if ...?" Several years back an old friend who was an ex-military guy gave me a gallon paint bucket full of 147 gr. FMJ bullets and the same amount of powder that came from the cartridges from which the bullets were pulled. I shot them in my Win. 670 .30-06, gaining good practice at various distances. Then I got the bright (?) idea of hollow-pointing a few of those bullets to see what the results would be. I still have one sitting on a shelf above my reloading bench. I cut the point of the bullets off uniformly and to exact lengths and weights, then with a collar on a drill bit, drilled out the lead core about 1/4". Don't remember what I did by way of powder charges but the altered bullets performed nicely and would completely come apart when shot into 1-gallon milk jugs filled with water. However, unless one comes upon such a gold mine of bullets like I did and for free, and unless one has unlimited time on his hands, it is an exercise in futility. From one who has been there and done that - pun intended - its pointless. Big Boomer

[Mgvande]

Has anyone pulled a GP11 bullet from Swiss ammo? Is it open based?

[Fenring]

A FMJ pointed bullet with a FLAT base will tumble through an animal, or human, and create a massive wound cavity. The Germans protested against the American use of such bullets in the 1st WW because of that phenomenon. The front of the bullet would slow down when it hit the flesh, while the back end was still moving hat high velocity and begin to yaw and start to tumble through the soldier. Does the same to deer, et al. Not to sure as to the effectiveness on larger animals.

Britain and Australia's Mk VII .303 round used a composite 174gr bullet that had a nose section made of aluminium or other light material, so the centre of gravity was to the rear of the bullet. Apparently this caused it to yaw on impact with flesh.

[Oklahoma Rebel]

seems like the yawing bullet is a replacement for not being able to use hollow or soft points?? is that an accurate assumption? also I must say I am very surprised at the interest this thread has generated.

[Fenring]

Yes, that's my understanding.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I'm reasonably certain that if you put an FMJ in the right place(s), you'll easily have venison in the freezer.
True DAT !!

A guy I did some trading with here in the Copper Basin. Loaded up some 110 gr Barnes Banded Solids in his 6.5 Swede for shooting predators. He didn't get them switched out for expanding bullets by the time he happened onto some migrating caribou. He took a heart shot on a big cow with that bullet at around 135 yards iirc. She took 2 steps and fell over dead. Then at a later time he shot a nice bull with the same load. It took a step , maybe 2 and fell over.
The amount of ruined meat on these 2 animals was less than what would fill a coffee cup.
I've seen a number of deer killed with the 223 shooting 55 gr fmjbt. They all died .
Game rangers in Africa have done extensive culls with 7.62×51 NATO.
ball ammo. Including elephant and cape buffalo .
Ball ammo works about a million times better than No Ammo for filling the freezer or protecting yourself.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I killed two dogs with collars that I caught in the act of killing a calf that my son was bottle feeding because it's mother rejected it. My son was 8 years old at the time and cried aii day. If the collars had the owners info on them, the sheriff & I would have delivered the bodies home & I would have demanded restitution. I love dogs(I have 5) but would kill any without hesitation if they attack livestock. People get their dream house & 5 acres and a big dog or two then let them roam free. And that's what happens.

Feral dogs and cats get shot on sight !! Course , coyotes +wolves get shot on sight also.

[davidheart]

OS OK posted the Box 'O Truth but not this article.... so this would prove helpful to y'all. http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-32-dum-dum-bullets-and-the-box-otruth/

[Oklahoma Rebel]

that's some pretty impressive stuff. though something about the backwards bullet seems scary dangerous, so now we have smart bombs and dum dum bullets,lol what would that leave? mediocre missiles?

[Larry Gibson]

Might want to be careful reversing FMJs in milsurp ammunition........pressures will rise. Whether it's safe or not depends on the ammunition and the rifle it's used in. Keith and others may have got away with reversing NG training M2 ball bullets as the increase in psi doesn't go above the specified CUP or PSI MAPs for the cartridge. The psi of NG M2 ball is fairly low to begin with.

However, with other cartridges problems can and do arise. For example the measured PSI of US M80 Ball LC87 in my test rifle measures pretty consistently at 59,000 to 60,000 psi(M43) in 10 shot test strings. That is one of the highest psi lots of M80 I have measured. Pulling the bullets, reversing them, seating to the cannelure and recrimping with a Lee FCD increases the psi to 68,200 psi(M43).....I quit testing after 3 rounds.

I prefer to just spend the money for a good box of soft points.

Larry Gibson

[rondog]

Has anyone pulled a GP11 bullet from Swiss ammo? Is it open based?

No, FMJBT. Got one in my collection.

[Larry Gibson]

I have pulled 5.56 M193 bullets, dumped the powder and replaced it with the powder charge from issue 9mm and 45 ACP ammo. I then seated the M193 bullet backwards to the canalure groove and crimped with blasting cap crimpers. Velocity out of an M16A1 runs right at 1600 fps. of course it would not function the M16A1 but it fed from a 20 round magazine making it basically a manual repeater. Accuracy was just fine out to the 50 - 60 yards I used it in the jungle of Panama. I called it my "Panama Load" in deference to the reduced cast loads Whelen used there in his M1903. Worked just fine on the parrots, other birds and the nutria like critter that the Indians liked to eat.


However, that load is not a high pressure load to begin with so I ran into no problems with it.


Larry Gibson