BSA Martini repro?

[seppos]

Does anybody know, is there any companys producing the Martini reproduction actions?
And might there be any interest for such a design that would be made from modern materials.
I happen to have BSA Martini model 12 that I bought years ago. My plan was to make a switch barrel combo from it keeping the original barrel that shot sub inch groups from 100m and make switch barrels for .22 WMR, .17 HMR, .22 LR Silenced and maybe .22 K Hornet.

My project went to hold and some unmentioned ******** stole the original barrel, so I was left with this .22 WMR barrel..
Now as I was thinking about possible custom project of Sub caliber single shot I started to wonder if there would be any interest of a BSA Martini model 12 type of action that would be made from modern material, with that easy barrel swap option and with a firing pin modification that makes it possible to have both rimfire and centerfire cartridges in the same rifle.

Any comments?

S

[jumbeaux]

Did you post this on another website awhile back ?

rick

[seppos]

No.. Just here.. Why? Has somebody similar ideas?

S

[jumbeaux]

I seem to recall a similar thread in the past on rimfirecentral ? However, my memory isn't what it once was...good luck sir.

rick

[seppos]

Thank you sir.
It is dam good and handy model and known to withstand some pressure even in the old model so would be quite nice single shot.
About rimfire central.. Have not been there yet so dont know.. Maybe should check it out and see if there is some info about that.

S

PS. Just checked the site.. Really interesting.. Interesting indeed..

[M-Tecs]

Interesting site but unfortunately it has a very high percentage of self appointed experts that don't enough to pour pee from a boot before wearing it.

[seppos]

:mrgreen:
Might be so.. I just saw that they had a full page dedicated to Martinis..

S

[Jedman]

No reproductions of a Martini action that I know of. Someone like Ruger using the investment casting process should be able to build them quite economically since the is so few parts to them.
I doubt that there would be enough sales to make it worth while but I would be good for a couple if they could do it for about $300 for a complete action.

Jedman

[seppos]

Yep.
Martini too does not have too many parts and it is really easy to take apart for cleaning.
Had to put stainless barrel as i had one leftover while building my WMR.183697
Had only american walnut so the stocks are missmatched. Plan was to make proper stocks to it but my project went ahold before the idea become reality.
The trigger group
183698

S

Ps. Seems to bee that there might be somebody who might be interested:
http://www.martinihenry.com/links.htm

[TCLouis]

Anyone that would steal a mans sub MOA 22 RF barrel should be horse whipped.

Thank you for the picture of that action, I have a use for it.

[Bigslug]

Personally, .357 Magnum, and I'm there! Love my .32-20 hybrid, just wish it was more conventionally chambered.

You might look to the BSA International .22 match rifles for inspiration. Should also give some thought to mounting a more modern scope (i.e. non-Unertl blocks)

[samari46]

Seem to remember a thread on either the Nitroexpress or Accurate reloading forums regarding making up new martini actions but some of the comments were expressing making them up in a slightly larger size so as to allow larger barrel threads for bigger cartridges. Haven't heard anything further regarding any manufacturing the actions though. Frank

[seppos]

Atleast the 7.62x39 do nicely.. so 223 might also be possible.
183732
Beefing up might also be possible if needed. Although it might be possible that from right materials that would not be even needed.
I was thinking even titanium but that would propably be too long shot as it would rise up the costs..

S

PS. Model 12 was actually kind of match rifle, but as it has the quick barrel change, I put a handy short barrel to it. It was suppose to be my sons first gun.. Maybe even with .410 shotgun barrel.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I doubt if there is the market for a firm like Ruger, but smaller ones seem to be making out all right with limited runs of the American single-shots. There might be an opening for a sideways-opening Martini-style rifle, probably actuated by a rotary lever like early breech-loading shotguns. It would be easier to load and eject under a scope.

Here is a project which is on the back burner at present, but will one day be finished. I simply had a spark erosion firm cut a mortice in a block of D2 air hardening steel, for £80, which will fit the standard small Martini internal parts. No doubt they could do quite a bit more, at a price, but I will do the rest by milling.


183734


The trigger of the later Martini-International is well worth copying, but I think you would have to leave more depth in the receiver. Plenty of people have used high pressure cartridges in the original Australian cadet rifles without mishap, so I don't believe the kind of steel would be at all critical in much thicker sided target rimfires such as the 12/15. If I was making the breechblock I would eliminate the slot on the right for Francotte's Patent Indicator. You could probably have a slightly smaller and/or shorter mainspring tunnel in the block by using a square-wire spring in modern spring steel. As it is, there isn't much thickness in the front of the block to permit rimfire/centrefire adaptability.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Atleast the 7.62x39 do nicely.. so 223 might also be possible.
183732
Beefing up might also be possible if needed. Although it might be possible that from right materials that would not be even needed.
I was thinking even titanium but that would propably be too long shot as it would rise up the costs..

S

PS. Model 12 was actually kind of match rifle, but as it has the quick barrel change, I put a handy short barrel to it. It was suppose to be my sons first gun.. Maybe even with .410 shotgun barrel.

The snag here is that the 7.62x39 is rimless, and I don't believe there is anything suitable for feeding those dies with rimless cases. For the .223 and all its friends and relations there is, namely the German 5.6x50R.

Titanium isn't actually stronger than good steel, and the action sides don't appear to be a significant weakness with the small Martini as usually constituted. Apart from being capable of anodization in blues and greens, its only real advantage is lightness, and it would save only a little weight, between the hands where it affects balance least.

[seppos]

True.
The rifle it self is very light so the weight should not be a problem.
Rimless case would cause some challanges in design but should not be a problem as I have already made some rifle barrels for the IJ-18 for rimless calibers in my past.

S

[Col4570]

Some years since Brownels retailed a replica Greener GP shotgun Kit.I obtained a kit a couple of years ago and decided to produce a 32.40 BP Rifle.There are often Greehttp://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/32-40MartiniBlackPowderRifle004.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/32-40MartiniBlackPowderRifle004.jpg.html)ner G Ps for sale And many are used to produce Rifles.Here is mine in 32.40 BP it came as castings that had to be filed some parts where missing which I had to make including a barrel.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/32-40MartiniBlackPowderRifle003.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/32-40MartiniBlackPowderRifle003.jpg.html)
another View.The two larger Rounds are 45.70 and 50.70 for comparison against the 32.40 Rounds.The easiest way would be to use an Original Greener GP.The forward lever is for the take down function.

[seppos]

Yes. Entirely possible to construct the takedown lever to replace the bolt that is constructed to the model 12.
Another option is to place the takedown lever to the bottom of the forestock.
For the optics a quick detach mount might be the best option as it also makes possible to change the sight according to the situation. The rail for the mount should be installed to the barrel so that it would not interfere the quick change of the barrels.

S

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Yes, and an exceptionally good takedown system it is, with that screw clamping the receiver threads tightly onto those of the barrel. I know of someone firing modern .45-70 loads with the clamping screw untightened, not quite Ruger No1 only level but as much as you would want in a modern Winchester 1886 clone, say. There were no changes of any sort.

Greener started out using this action as a police gun, originally I believe for Egypt, but later, and notoriously, for South Africa. But I have seen undoubtedly authentic big game rifles from an even earlier period which looked the same - not just the top hump, but the relieved lower rear edge to suit the pistol grip. I don't know if they used the larger barrel threads of the GP, for the standard 1in. x 14, as inherited by the Lee-Enfields, would have been ample.

I believe some of the late Greener GPs, still under that name but made by Webley after Greener withdrew from that end of the market, aren't of as good quality as the earlier ones. I believe some use circlips on the pins. But I don't know if they were weaker or the difference in any other way functional.

[Parson]

Back in their hay day, when they were cheep (about $12) somebody was making a rimless extractor for the Cadets. When I was gunsmithing I had a print for them but haven't seen it in years, Frank Hass book may be the source but don't remember for sure,( old tankers don't die, they just loose track)

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I know of one gunsmith whose name I forget, who made rimless extractors for the Cadets, but quite a while back he couldn't be found still working. I know it can be done, and that Frank de Haas did suggest some designs, jn which book I don't remember, but I am sceptical about their reliability. especially in the small size

[seppos]

Heh.. Maybe we are not talking about hunting the "Big Five" with these rifles, so the 100% reliability should not be the main issue here;)
Normally in the extractor there is a small spring loaded hook or lip that snaps to the extractor groove in the rimless cartridge. The small size sometimes causes issues, but that depends many times about the tapering of the cartridge. For example the 7.62X39 is so heavily tapered round that actually the extractor lip does not interfere the chambering even if it is static.

S

[tim338]

I think the gunsmiths name that made the extractors was Bob Snapp from Michigan. He was well known for his work with the Martini rifle.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think the gunsmiths name that made the extractors was Bob Snapp from Michigan. He was well known for his work with the Martini rifle.

Ah yes, that is the man. But I still think there are very few needs a rimmed case won't fulfil better.

[seppos]

Yes. Plenty of options available in rimmed ones too.

S

[Bad Ass Wallace]

A local gunsmith here makes a rimmed/rimless version based on a 22 rimfire extractor. I've seen a rifle that will shoot 222Rimmed and 222Rimless without fuss!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/IMG_0649_zpsxpudww0x.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/IMG_0649_zpsxpudww0x.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/IMG_0646_zps9ds3yljp.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/IMG_0646_zps9ds3yljp.jpg.html)

[cwheel]

My neighbor, another machinist, borrowed my model 12 in .357 and made a copy, wood, action and all, perfect job. .225 cal. a odd-ball to me, but says it shoots great. If you were to place my original next to his copy, you would have to look at the markings to tell which one was original. He has done this with several firearms, all turning out great. All of the machine setup time would make this cost prohibitive for all except those not caring about the time it took to finish. Someone making these from cast parts I'm sure could make money from this, not a person cutting parts from raw blocks of steel.
Chris

[seppos]

I do have a 5 axis machining center available with 2 chucks, so that would speed up the things,
It is entirely possible to do some of the parts by invesment casting as I do have one Company specialized steel castings close by.

S

[Ballistics in Scotland]

A local gunsmith here makes a rimmed/rimless version based on a 22 rimfire extractor. I've seen a rifle that will shoot 222Rimmed and 222Rimless without fuss!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/IMG_0649_zpsxpudww0x.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/IMG_0649_zpsxpudww0x.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/IMG_0646_zps9ds3yljp.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/IMG_0646_zps9ds3yljp.jpg.html)

That one should work, but as you say it is for a rimfire Martini, and possibly not the earliest of those. The centrefire Cadets had a large lump on the lower centre of the receiver mortice, continuing the barrel threads with a narrow extractor gap on each side.

The action, particularly late, thick-sided ones like the 12/15, should have the strength in a longitudinal direction for the .225 Winchester, but I would feel happier with larger diameter barrel threads.

[seppos]

The beefing up of the action from the sides or possible finer thread with bigger diameter should not be a problem if one wants to make changes to the original design.

S

[seppos]

It is good not to do everyting with a file..
184087184088

Might have time to continue with this project also.

There is two ways to choose:
The investment casting combined to the mashining and the EDM combined with mashining.
The first option makes the initial investment bigger as the EDM looses in big series production.
The good thing with the EDM is that it is more flexible with small changes in design.
That would serve better in this case.

S

[cwheel]

A easier way to do the rimless cases is to copy the Savage design for this. Take a standard ejector and drill for a small round spring loaded plunger. This plunger retracts into the body of the extractor as the action is closed. Once the plunger reaches the grove in the rim of the case, it extends and catches the case much like what is pictured above. Difference is that smaller parts, and less of them, are used to perform the same function. Savage used this setup on their model 24 combo guns for many years. I have a model 24 predator in 223/20 that uses this setup to extract the .223 case. Difference in the end would be half the machine work. My neighbor used this setup with his .225 martini repo and it works well.
Chris

[seppos]

That sounds good.
Will try it.
thanks

S

[Bad Ass Wallace]

Another version of rimless extractor

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/scan0001.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/scan0001.jpg.html)

[seppos]

Thanks!
That would be really helpfull although a bit difficult to make.

S

[BigEyeBob]

Yes. Entirely possible to construct the takedown lever to replace the bolt that is constructed to the model 12.
Another option is to place the takedown lever to the bottom of the forestock.
For the optics a quick detach mount might be the best option as it also makes possible to change the sight according to the situation. The rail for the mount should be installed to the barrel so that it would not interfere the quick change of the barrels.

S
My Greener martini in 300Sherwood has a rib on the barrel ,the scope mounts to , its not a take down but the rib is not connected to the barrel.
A couple of more examples of scope mounting on the right .

[Eddie Southgate]

Does anybody know, is there any companys producing the Martini reproduction actions?
And might there be any interest for such a design that would be made from modern materials.
I happen to have BSA Martini model 12 that I bought years ago. My plan was to make a switch barrel combo from it keeping the original barrel that shot sub inch groups from 100m and make switch barrels for .22 WMR, .17 HMR, .22 LR Silenced and maybe .22 K Hornet.

My project went to hold and some unmentioned ******** stole the original barrel, so I was left with this .22 WMR barrel..
Now as I was thinking about possible custom project of Sub caliber single shot I started to wonder if there would be any interest of a BSA Martini model 12 type of action that would be made from modern material, with that easy barrel swap option and with a firing pin modification that makes it possible to have both rimfire and centerfire cartridges in the same rifle.

Any comments?

S

I would think there would be plenty of interest in a Martini action such as you mention . One in 25-20 and .22 LR built light would be my idea of the perfect rifle for a few hours walking the woods .

Eddie