Virgin birth?

[shoot-n-lead]

What do y'all think about this?

Geee Whizzz...it just never stops...

http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2016/12/27/dont-believe-in-jesus-virgin-birth-not-a-problem-says-andy-stanley/

[Boaz]

Many churches have deviated/changed the message of the gospel wanting to 'enjoin' with trendy . The suffering , death and his blood given to pay our debit that we could not is not spoken because it might upset people . Pop culture Christians are not getting the word .

[Preacher Jim]

To doubt the birth is to doubt the power of the God who did it.

[GhostHawk]

To me it is a package deal, you either believe it all or you don't really believe.

It is not a buffet. You do not get to walk down the line and have a scoop of this and some of that.

It is a package deal, either you wrap your head around the whole thing, just take it on Faith, or you don't.

And to be honest in my younger years there were parts that confused me, parts I was not sure of.

Now, I BELIEVE LORD, I believe it all. All the way from "In the beginning" to Revelations and everything in between. I believe and I humble myself before you. I am not worthy of your gift.

But I am glad of it.

[USMC87]

Ghost Hawk I could not have said it better, I am so unworthy of the gift the virgin Mary delivered. To doubt the virgin birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is nothing but "unbelief". We don't pick and choose what we want to believe or not believe, It is all or nothing.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

To doubt the birth is to doubt the power of the God who did it.

I suppose it could also be due to doubting the humans who told us about it. The radically different genealogies for Jesus in Mathew and Luke can't both be true.

[Blackwater]

Jim and Ghost nailed it. Precisely. I DVR Andy every time he's on. He has some awfully good traits in his approach to converting the people out there today. He's effective, and makes people ask themselves all the right questions. And he doesn't try to get them to swallow the whole ball of wax in one huge gulp. This brings him a lot of folks who can't, for whatever reason so far, accept it all. But once he gets them into the flock, THEN, and ONLY then, can he bring them more fully to light.

I'm a baptist, and the traditional view of Baptists is it's "all or nothing." And I've seen that turn SO many people away who COULD have been very good Christians, that I've totally abandoned any attempt to do it all in one big swoop. Most people today simply don't have the wherewithall to accept it all. There's been no groundwork in their lives, and if anything, the seeds of doubt, cynicism and pessimism have been sown and reaped. Stanley believes in the virgin birth. He just doesn't let that one little precept spoil his chance to get folks to listen and hear the message they need so badly.

Have we grown so cynical and puritanical our selves, as Christians, that WE demand those we witness to immediately fall to their knees and worship God the WAY we do? I don't recall Christ ever taking that tactic. He spoke to people as a friend, parent or teacher who loved them would talk to them. This, I think, shows how haughty we've become, at least in some ways, as Christians, and it's the one thing that drives so many people away, and keeps them from ever really hearing or considering what the truth is.

He said he didn't care if people believed in the virgin birth, NOT whether it's crucial to the story. But stories are told one line at a time, and each line has a place in the story. It's a progressing saga, and we can't get ahead of ourselves. But of course, we often do, and we demean our effeorts and diminish the potential results we might have had in so doing. There's a reason Christ tried so hard to teach us tolerance, long-suffering, patience, and gave us a sense of humor. If we used these things more, and our rigid sense of what Christianity is supposed to be less, we'd most likely get much more harmonious and desirable outcomes.

New believers and converts have to GROW in the understanding of the Lord we speak of. They CAN'T swallow it all at once. Nobody's gullet is THAT big, especially when they've been fed the secular-progressive lies for so very long, and when most around them believe that trash. Give'em a chance, folks. They truly need it. When we turn away because they can't miraculously understand what's taken most of us a long time to get a fair grasp on, we are defeating ourselves and our efforts, and leaving them to the sharks in this sea of woe. Good Christians can't think like that. Conversion is almost always a progressive process, and not one crystaline moment when they miraculously "see the light." We need to allow them some reasonable resistance. How could they not? And one of the things we can easily bypass is the virgin birth part. It takes a giant leap of very real faith to accept something that was, even then, a literal and huge miracle. It's never been done before or since, so why shouldn't we give them a pass on that, WHILE we go on to things they are capable of grasping initially?

We want it all to be a wham bam thany ya' ma'am process, and not take up any more of our time than what we think we have to give. If we were just patient and confident enough, and truly looked at the one in need before us, and figured out what it is they lack in order to believe, we'd have a lot more success. And if we had a lot more success, our world today would be so very different than it is now! So really, our nation goes however well WE Christians represent and conduct ourselves, and however well we spread the story that's the greatest ever told. It's of little consequence at first, whether one we're witnessing to believes in the virgin birth at first or not. What IS important is that he see the biggest things first, so we can expand those into the rest of the story. I'd think we'd see that more commonly than we often do.

[Boaz]

Jim and Ghost nailed it. Precisely. I DVR Andy every time he's on. He has some awfully good traits in his approach to converting the people out there today. He's effective, and makes people ask themselves all the right questions. And he doesn't try to get them to swallow the whole ball of wax in one huge gulp. This brings him a lot of folks who can't, for whatever reason so far, accept it all. But once he gets them into the flock, THEN, and ONLY then, can he bring them more fully to light.

I'm a baptist, and the traditional view of Baptists is it's "all or nothing." And I've seen that turn SO many people away who COULD have been very good Christians, that I've totally abandoned any attempt to do it all in one big swoop. Most people today simply don't have the wherewithall to accept it all. There's been no groundwork in their lives, and if anything, the seeds of doubt, cynicism and pessimism have been sown and reaped. Stanley believes in the virgin birth. He just doesn't let that one little precept spoil his chance to get folks to listen and hear the message they need so badly.

Have we grown so cynical and puritanical our selves, as Christians, that WE demand those we witness to immediately fall to their knees and worship God the WAY we do? I don't recall Christ ever taking that tactic. He spoke to people as a friend, parent or teacher who loved them would talk to them. This, I think, shows how haughty we've become, at least in some ways, as Christians, and it's the one thing that drives so many people away, and keeps them from ever really hearing or considering what the truth is.

He said he didn't care if people believed in the virgin birth, NOT whether it's crucial to the story. But stories are told one line at a time, and each line has a place in the story. It's a progressing saga, and we can't get ahead of ourselves. But of course, we often do, and we demean our effeorts and diminish the potential results we might have had in so doing. There's a reason Christ tried so hard to teach us tolerance, long-suffering, patience, and gave us a sense of humor. If we used these things more, and our rigid sense of what Christianity is supposed to be less, we'd most likely get much more harmonious and desirable outcomes.

New believers and converts have to GROW in the understanding of the Lord we speak of. They CAN'T swallow it all at once. Nobody's gullet is THAT big, especially when they've been fed the secular-progressive lies for so very long, and when most around them believe that trash. Give'em a chance, folks. They truly need it. When we turn away because they can't miraculously understand what's taken most of us a long time to get a fair grasp on, we are defeating ourselves and our efforts, and leaving them to the sharks in this sea of woe. Good Christians can't think like that. Conversion is almost always a progressive process, and not one crystaline moment when they miraculously "see the light." We need to allow them some reasonable resistance. How could they not? And one of the things we can easily bypass is the virgin birth part. It takes a giant leap of very real faith to accept something that was, even then, a literal and huge miracle. It's never been done before or since, so why shouldn't we give them a pass on that, WHILE we go on to things they are capable of grasping initially?

We want it all to be a wham bam thany ya' ma'am process, and not take up any more of our time than what we think we have to give. If we were just patient and confident enough, and truly looked at the one in need before us, and figured out what it is they lack in order to believe, we'd have a lot more success. And if we had a lot more success, our world today would be so very different than it is now! So really, our nation goes however well WE Christians represent and conduct ourselves, and however well we spread the story that's the greatest ever told. It's of little consequence at first, whether one we're witnessing to believes in the virgin birth at first or not. What IS important is that he see the biggest things first, so we can expand those into the rest of the story. I'd think we'd see that more commonly than we often do.

Think you might be a little bit wrong in the assumption that when witnessing most have a 'throw down' when talking to a non believer . As a matter of fact we are to be an example of what we say . You answer questions ...not so much ask them . You lead others to Christ not drive them to him .

[Blackwater]

Well, you have a definite point, but so do I. There are as many ways to witness as there are witnesses. No two of us are alike, and the best part is, neither are those we witness to. And one witness may have a "better" approach for one person, while another may "speak" to another listner. It really takes all of us to witness effectively. The biggest problem is getting most Christians TO witness, as we've been instructed to do. And for a few, it's just not something they're given to do, so they can take folks to someone in their church who is better at it than they are. Leading someone by the hand to an effective and knowledgeable witness IS leading them to Christ, so there's no sense in all of us trying to be everything to everybody, when we know darn well we can't be that to start with.

And that's the wonderful thing about Christianity. Each and every one of us has a part and place within it. And I can't think of one person I've seen come to Christ for whom that step wasn't the culmination of some real consideration over quite some time. The final act is the commitment, but it had generally been brewing for quite a while, and the truth gradually opened to them. Only at the last do they step forward and take Christ's hand, and make their profession of faith before both God and man. None of us changes our minds, or really truly learns much in moments of epiphany. It's almost always something that grows, and then finally bursts forth, if it's really real. Most "jailhouse confessions" last about as long as it took them to make them. Sometimes less! It's those who stew and think on it that are MUCH more reliable. That's been my experience, anyway.

[Boaz]

I have seen those filled with the Holy Spirit upon hearing GOD's word commit and show conviction . But that is less common than being taught and shown . Children in their innocence can grasp the word more readily than older people with more 'experience' that clutters their thoughts . But witnessing is giving and showing , not expectation . GOD will handle that .

[Bzcraig]

I'll have to dig out an article I wrote for the specifics but in researching for the article, I read a research article from the Barna Group which cited % of evangelical church attenders who believed such things as the virgin birth, inerrancy of the bible, Holy Spirit and many others. Of those interviewed (and if memory serves) 97% claimed to be a Christian but by the time they got to those who believed all the bible essentials it was under 10%. The church too has become liberal my brothers.

[Yellow Fang]

I suppose it could also be due to doubting the humans who told us about it. The radically different genealogies for Jesus in Mathew and Luke can't both be true.

Mary's genealogy, and Joseph's.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Boaz]

I'll have to dig out an article I wrote for the specifics but in researching for the article, I read a research article from the Barna Group which cited % of evangelical church attenders who believed such things as the virgin birth, inerrancy of the bible, Holy Spirit and many others. Of those interviewed (and if memory serves) 97% claimed to be a Christian but by the time they got to those who believed all the bible essentials it was under 10%. The church too has become liberal my brothers.

I understand and don't need stats , I believe you . Belonged to a church over 40 years , was a great church that taught . It turned into a mega church with 3 services on Sunday , telecast , radio sermons , high dollar preacher...the whole bit ! I wouldn't raise Becky there , joined a small church that still teaches and does GOD's work , no regrets .

We are turning out young people going to the mission field , the bible is TAUGHT and not just talked about .

[buckwheatpaul]

Boaz and I have had numerous conversations about the P.C. preachers of today. They are afraid of offending others and want to keep their tax exemption status so they parrot what is politically correct. What we always end up with is the belief that the preachers need to quit worrying about being politically correct and preach.....preach....preach....they need to step on toes and call out sinners! No matter how much they become p.c. membership is generally down. We either believe or we dont believe in the BIBLE.....I for one take it word for word! As Christians we need to quit worrying about being p.c. and call out evil. We have all seen what several generations of p.c. had done for this country....are we stronger or weaker? By raising our voices to our preachers and politicians, like we did in the last election, we can reestablish our souls, our health and the health of this country.

[Boaz]

Amen Paul ! Amen

[aspangler]

Boaz and I have had numerous conversations about the P.C. preachers of today. They are afraid of offending others and want to keep their tax exemption status so they parrot what is politically correct. What we always end up with is the belief that the preachers need to quit worrying about being politically correct and preach.....preach....preach....they need to step on toes and call out sinners! No matter how much they become p.c. membership is generally down. We either believe or we dont believe in the BIBLE.....I for one take it word for word! As Christians we need to quit worrying about being p.c. and call out evil. We have all seen what several generations of p.c. had done for this country....are we stronger or weaker? By raising our voices to our preachers and politicians, like we did in the last election, we can reestablish our souls, our health and the health of this country.

Bro.s Paul and Boaz.
I am one of the "old time" Baptist preachers and proud of it. I declare the Gospel of Jesus Christ at any opportunity. Jesus is real and the Bible is God's Word. It pleased God thru the foolishness of preaching to save the lost. Praise God for His wisdom.

[Boaz]

Thank you brother . Time for more to stand up !

[1johnlb]

Why would anyone, especially a Christain, read a secular article from a secular media group ( gossip network ), and believe it over a grounded and rooted, time tested man of God and decide who he is and what he believes by 1, right or wrong, statement. He's a man, not God.

Yeap, secular media using secular thinking to cause division in the body. Ain't the devil clever.

[w5pv]

Never thought of it being any different as it was stated in the bible