Why so hard?

[TexasGrunt]

I'm sitting here wondering why so many commercial bullet casters use such hard lead. As an example let's look at bullets intended for use in the .45 ACP.

From what little I know it seems there's no real reason to have bullets harder than 12 BHN.

Yet it seems that most commercial casters are selling 18 BHN bullets.

[HangFireW8]

Hard lead and hard lubes survive shipping much better than soft lead and soft lubes.

That's all.

[sghart3578]

Maybe because a lot of buyers think that they need them that hard?

Or because they hold up better in shipment?

[Digital Dan]

Some years ago I bought a 1,000 bullets from Montana Precision Swagging, all pure lead. They shipped in boxes that would normally be considered ammo boxes, 50 ct each. Heavy package, they all survived in fine form.

I understand what they are doing, but think the first company that gets over the shipping in bulk bags and does it right, will profit from the effort. Last commercial bullets I purchased were shipped bulk in a box. No harm, hard lead and lube. Sorriest cast bullets I ever did see....more voids and imperfections than Carter has peanuts.

[waco]

Shipping mainly. But a lot of it is people don't know any better. "hard cast" sells for a lot of folks. They think, oh, a solt lead bullet will lead your barrel. They don't understand that fit is king.

[TexasGrunt]

Thanks.

Shipping survival seems to be the answer.

I've had problems with commercial cast bullets and leading in a couple of my pistols. It could be fit but I have a feeling the bullets are just too hard.

[runfiverun]

it's been going on longer than cross country shipping.
the term 'hard-cast' come about to denote the use of antimony in the alloy.

part of the problem was because of the factory's using soft alloys such as 1-40 for a looong time.
the 357 mag and later the 44 mag. plain out overpowered that alloy [as you know Elmer went to 16-1 in search of an alloy that would work]
switching in some lino-type [50-50 makes terracorp magnum alloy] or buying ideal's #1 [it had copper] or lyman's #5 alloy, alleviated the issue.
so the point was driven home to many shooters that the harder alloy was necessary.

[mdi]

IMO "hard cast" is a fairly modern thing as newer lead bullet users think "harder is better" and the commercial casters give them what they want. Even in the jargon of newer lead bullet shooters "hard cast" pertains to all cast bullets, regardless of how hard they really are, and commercial casters will eagerly give them 18+ BHN bullets. In my opinion the hardest for all around shooting is somewhere around 10-14 BHN, size being much more important.

I also agree with the fellers above that much has to do with withstanding shipping and arriving with no dings, flattened corners and hard blue lube in place...

[gwpercle]

Hard lead and hard lubes survive shipping much better than soft lead and soft lubes.

That's all.

BINGO ! that's the facts jack !
And most new reloaders have been brainwashed by them into believing that harder is better.
It's not . Go back and read Elmer Keith Sixguns and see what alloy's he used..... they weren't that hard at all!
Repeat something often enough and it becomes the truth?

[KYCaster]

Shipping damage? It's a chunk o' lead, fer goodness sake! Will 18 BHN alloy survive something that will destroy 10 BHN? I don't think so. I know some USPS employees can manage to tear up an anvil, but if a bullet is able to survive a trip down your barrel, I'm pretty sure it can survive a three day trip on a mail truck.

The real reason for the hard alloy is.....CUSTOMERS DEMAND IT!....and I don't mean REQUEST it, I mean DEMAND IT! They've been told that "Teracorp Magnum Bullet Alloy" is the industry standard. That's why "ABC Bullet Co." et. al. uses the phrase as a selling point.

Whether or not the owner knows the effects of alloy hardness is pretty much irrelevant in order to make the initial sale. If the customer complains, that's the time to try to educate him in the finer points of alloy, lube and FIT. At that point, he better have enough knowledge of the subject to satisfy the customer.

Now, keep in mind that most of the members of this board are not the typical cast bullet buyer. Yeah, some of you still buy bulk bullets, I see plenty of posts asking for a source of cheap bullets and plenty of others recommending their favorite supplier. I also see plenty of posts condemning all cast bullet sellers as liars and cheats. If a commercial caster could satisfy your needs at a reasonable price, most of you wouldn't be here.

Sorry for the rant. I'll shut up now.

Thanks for listening.....
Jerry

P.S. There seems to be a pretty big demand for a good 30 cal. hunting boolit. I'm thinking of offering a 311407 cast from a single cavity mold for consistency, of 94Pb, 3Sn, 3Sb, with a cup point, sized .301 on the nose, tapering to .311 on the driving bands (variable to fit your individual chamber). It will be heat treated to 22BHN with an annealed copper, crimp on gas check and lubed with a combination of White Lable 2400+ and Ben's Red.

I think I can offer these at a low, low introductory price of $3.50 each plus SFRB shipping.

Whadayathink? Anybody interested?


Edit to add: On second thought, I'm not sure that price will cover it.....CALL FOR QUOTE!

[swheeler]

it's been going on longer than cross country shipping.
the term 'hard-cast' come about to denote the use of antimony in the alloy.

part of the problem was because of the factory's using soft alloys such as 1-40 for a looong time.
the 357 mag and later the 44 mag. plain out overpowered that alloy [as you know Elmer went to 16-1 in search of an alloy that would work]
switching in some lino-type [50-50 makes terracorp magnum alloy] or buying ideal's #1 [it had copper] or lyman's #5 alloy, alleviated the issue.
so the point was driven home to many shooters that the harder alloy was necessary.

I do believe this is the correct answer, created by 357 mag cast factory ammo of days of old. I have heard the other stories about shipping, while I believe this may be the reasoning behind hard lubes, alloy not so much.

[B. Lumpkin]

I'd think that logistics plays a part in it as well. One alloy and one lube for all bullets instead of having to stock multiple alloys and lubes along with the associated change over times or additional melting pots plus lubesizers needed to use it all.

[Scharfschuetze]

Shipping yes, but I believe it is also easier for commercial casters to get more uniform and consistent results from an alloy that has more tin in it than the swaged bullets produced with less alloyed lead.

[blue32]

If commercial casters provided a product that did not lead my barrels I would not be casting.

[Lloyd Smale]

Some of the others are right. We had a problem one year at the linebaugh seminar with one of the major bullet maker's bullets fracturing during penetration testing. I asked him his alloy and he said he used about a ww alloy and water dropped them so they would be hard enough to ship without damage (same reason he used a hard lube) and just dropping out of the machine without water dropping he got dings in his bullets. That and because everyone wants hard and if he did a softer alloy his bullets leading could ruin his reputation. He runs maga casting machines and the machines are set up to drop right in the water.

[TexasGrunt]

I delivered mail for 20 years before my back forced me to quit. Never broke an anvil and never tried.

I did have some items come in trashed. You can't throw 1000 200 SWC bullets in a bag and then throw the bag in a box and ship it. Too much weight moving around for the cardboard.

I have no doubt that the commercial casters use a hard lube to survive the shipping AND keep the bullets from getting sticky as they are thrown around.

I ordered my NOE push through sizing die yesterday! Still need to order a Lee mold so I can get started.

[Shiloh]

Hard lead and hard lubes survive shipping much better than soft lead and soft lubes.

That's all.

Never thought about it this way because it has been years since I purchased commercial cast bullets.
Makes sense though. I get superb results with range lead in pistol boolits.

SHiloh

[ioon44]

I'm sitting here wondering why so many commercial bullet casters use such hard lead. As an example let's look at bullets intended for use in the .45 ACP.

From what little I know it seems there's no real reason to have bullets harder than 12 BHN.

Yet it seems that most commercial casters are selling 18 BHN bullets.

All of the reasons in the post cover what has been experienced in the cast bullet world.

One nice thing about loading for the .45 ACP is that it pretty hard to mess up if the bullet is .002" over bore da and the bore is not rough or has a bad throat.

I have shot .45 ACP with bullets from pure lead to foundry type with out any problems and the Hi-Tek coating makes loading and shooting even better .

[TexasGrunt]

All of the reasons in the post cover what has been experienced in the cast bullet world.

One nice thing about loading for the .45 ACP is that it pretty hard to mess up if the bullet is .002" over bore da and the bore is not rough or has a bad throat.

I have shot .45 ACP with bullets from pure lead to foundry type with out any problems and the Hi-Tek coating makes loading and shooting even better .

I've got my mold and handles on order and the push through sizing die from NOE coming. I'm set to powder coat.

I cast a lot of fishing lures and jig heads and have a lot of soft lead. Right now I'm planning on using the same lead to cast .45 bullets. I've got a couple of Lee pots, a Sarco and my Pro-Melt. I prefer to use the Pro-Melt. It's full of pure lead right now. So my bullets are going to be pure/soft lead.

[Walstr]

IMHO it ain't about shipping either. When they establish their lead alloy melt, they're using 'automated' casting machines. Mayhaps they more often than not, cast for higher velocity calibers & figure their 'hard lead' won't do any harm. When they change molds, they cannot change their melted lead container.

[dkf]

Its about having nicer product that makes it through shipping and what runfiverun said. The commercial boolit caster is going to hear it from the customer if the bullets arrive all dinged up and with lube gouged and dropped out of the grooves. The end consumer usually does not want to pay the extra cost cost to have bullets boxed 50-100 to help prevent damage. And yes 18bhn will ding up a lot less than 10bhn boolits. Lube makers like White Label make hard lubes just for commercial casters, harder than their normal line of lubes. As most of us have figured out hard lubes usually are not best for performance.

[NuJudge]

Actually, I usually want a hard bullet. My results in pistol calibers such as 9mm, .357 and .44 are always better with hard bullets. I go to some lengths to make sure I have a ternary Lead-Tin-Antimony alloy, and water drop from the mold.

I am about to start casting large amounts of .32 and .38 wadcutters, for the first time. Many references tell me to first try soft Lead, so I will.

[rintinglen]

Back in the 60's there were a lot fewer reloaders than there are now , and most folks used factory ammo. Those old Super X 357 Magnum rounds would lead a barrel in as few as ten shots to the point where you were shooting a smooth bore. Well, many of the gun writers of the day touted harder" boolits as a cure all. In the late 70's, the Cast Bullet Association started publishing pieces on water dropping and that information, intended and useful for rifles, became gospel. If you wanted to sell cast bullets, they needed to be hard.

I went through a period myself where every boolit I shot was heat-treated, not just water dropped. It did decrease the leading I had some times observed when my loads got a little warm, but the fact was I didn't need that hardness for my low velocity loads. I was sizing my boolits properly and that, far more than anything else was responsible for my reduced leading. We are the heirs of the misunderstanding that arouse from shooters of that era.

[Jtarm]

Shipping mainly. But a lot of it is people don't know any better. "hard cast" sells for a lot of folks. They think, oh, a solt lead bullet will lead your barrel. They don't understand that fit is king.

Yep I think you nailed it.

If shipping is a factor, it's secondary, IMO, because everyone so proudly advertises "hard cast" bullets.

Several major mfrs have been shipping soft swaged bullets for decades with no problems I've heard of.

[Jtarm]

Shipping yes, but I believe it is also easier for commercial casters to get more uniform and consistent results from an alloy that has more tin in it than the swaged bullets produced with less alloyed lead.

IDK, tin is expensive and doesn't add a lot of hardness.

[TexasGrunt]

IDK, tin is expensive and doesn't add a lot of hardness.

Tin is very expensive! I need to pick up some to help my pure lead fill out my mold just a bit better. Going to the scrap yard to see if there's any good solder in the lead barrel.

[buckshotshoey]

I feel it is more about economy then shipping. They are using a "one size fits all" alloy to keep costs down. If the alloy survives a .357 or .44, then it will also do the job in a .380, without the added cost of changing alloys. If it shoots a jacketed bullet fine, then a hard cast should do fine. Not a true statement for all gun/ammo combinations, but true in general. Johnny's .357 might like a soft bullet....Ralph's may not. You cant expect the manufacturers to know what gun their product is being made for. So they make it to use in as many as possible.... without leading barrels. That would lead to a lot of bad press. And they certainly cant determine the bore dimension variances. Thats up to us and thats why we cast. Besides, Its fun!

[dverna]

There are many good reasons why hard cast is preferred by manufacturers. But the overriding ones are consistency and ease of production. Shipping is NOT the reason. I used to buy 1000's of swaged 148 HBWC and they were soft and did not get damaged in shipping.

Most commercial cast bullets are being sold for plinking and target work in pistols. Hard alloys will work in ANY gun or caliber for those applications. 92/6/2 is the preferred alloy. It fills well and is easy to run. (BTW, I purchased a ton of it for the same reasons) Do you think they want the down time to change alloys? Or to stock a few different ones? Same for lubes. One needs to work reasonably well for everything they sell.

The better suppliers will allow you to select sized diameter so you can get the bullet fit you need/want at no charge. Most will sell unlubed bullets if you want to use your "magic mix" and give a price break. None that I know of will produce bullets to your alloy spec--- but if you were willing to take 50,000 or so, they might do it----at a price.

BTW, Hornady sells soft swaged lead bullets. I have tested them in .38 and .44 calibers, albeit at lower velocities only. They are very consistent and shoot well - but are not cheap. They ship in bulk and are not beaten to rat $h!t when received.

Don Verna

[w30wcf]

I think the main reason is that the bullets have less chance of getting dinged in the high volume mass production process.

w30wcf

[reloader4410]

jacketed performance with cast bullets is a must read, this book has a wealth of information. HAPPY TRAILS.

[gloob]

Hard lead survives case swaging better than soft lead. I wish I had pictures. 401 MBC bullet in inadequately expanded case leaves full length lead streaks in my Glock. Same size bullet made of str8 wheelweights practically plugged the bore with one shot. Soft lead is higher liability, putting more onus on the end user. Commercial bullet makers want happy healthy customers with 10 fingers and 2 eyes.

If you make your own, you may get equal or possibly better results with softer alloy. I find harder bullets leave antimony buildup in my Glocks, for instance. Once case swaging issue was sorted, my Glocks will shoot str8 wheelweights indefinitely, with no fouling at all.