RD 165 bullet, Quick range report

[Chuck 100 yd]

This is a copy of my note book entry.

Load development .30-30 Marlin 336A 50 yd

Ranch Dog 165 , WW+tin, GC, sized .311 (Lee) LLA dipped
lube grooves only lubed (2 coats) , CCI 200 primer

#1– 18.0gr. IMR 4198 Ave.= 1532 ES–76.1 SD= 28.5
Shot 5 in 1 3/4" , 4 in 1 1/4" ( See note)

#2– 19.0gr. IMR 4198 Ave.= 1605 ES= 116.5 SD= 46.9
Shot 5 in 1 3/4" , 4 in 7/8" (See note) Poor specs, GOOD group

#3– 20.0 gr. IMR 4198 Ave.= 1664 ES= 50.9 SD= 20.4
Shot 5 in 1 5/8" (See note)

#4– 21.0gr. IMR 4198 Ave.=1736 ES= 38.9 SD= 15.9
Shot 5 into 1 ½" (see note) , PRETTY GOOD HUNTING LOAD

#5– 22.0gr. IMR 4198 Ave. = 1808 ES=48.0 SD= 18.9
Shot 5 into 1 ½ “ (see note) , ALSO GOOD HUNTING LOAD

#6– 23.0 gr. IMR 4198 Ave.= 1897 ES= 85.5 SD= 32.1
Shot 5 in 1 7/8" (See note) , STARTING TO OPEN UP
One bullet showing keyholing , light leading.


Note : Groups would have been smaller if fired first shot dirty, I ran a dry patch through after each five shots to check for leading. No leading until 22gr. And then only lite leading noted that cleaned out with dry patch. Lee LLA is doing its job.
Need to try this load/bullet combo using only one coat LLA and test for leading.
Note no real good or real bad groups fired seems to stay consistent with point of impact only changing as velocity comes up.

I also fired my .308MX using the RD 165 cast of WW+tin,sized .311 w/LLA
and CCI 200 primers.

35.0gr Varget gave 2162 fps ES=54.8 SD=21.9
Groups were 6" @ 50 yd with bullets keyholing (egg shaped holes)

36.0 gr.Varget gave 2198 fps ES= 32.9 SD= 11.9
Group was worse than above at nearly 8" @50yd.

I would like to see what that bullet looks like after it leaves the barrel. I will slow them way down and try again. I cant see going with a harder bullet for a hunting load.
More later .Chuck

[VTDW]

Be sure to let us know if you find something interesting in that boolit and the .308MX. I haven't yet but sure will post here if and when I do. I have used BL-C2, Varget and yesterday was Re-15. I found a spot or two that were interesting but will have to load those two loads again in 5 shots each to see if it was just an anomoly or not.

Dave

[Ranch Dog]

I've been working with that 308ME also. It is going to be a tough nut to crack. We are looking at a cartridge that is designed to operate at pressures beyond the ultimate compression strength of wheel weight alloys. Let me offer an example of this statement based on my work with my 308MX with the pressure trace equipment. If I load this cartridge to velocities that equal those of a max load in the 30-30 Win, the pressures being generated are about 2K to 3K more than those generated by the 30-30 Win. What I'm saying is this, you can take your typical levergun cartridge, load it with the same powders and charges as a jacketed bullet, and your water quenched wheel-weight bullet can survive the 38.0K to 40.0K PSI these cartridges generate. The 308ME is going to be different; its peak performance is designed to take place at 45.0K to 47.0K PSI. Our alloys are going to need to be tuned to match this. I personally have started to read everything I can from fellows that are shooting cast bullets from the 308 Win at the velocities I desire.

The first thing I learned, late this past week, is not to analyze the bullets performance at 50-yards. I showed a fellow my 50-yard target which I thought was "key-holing" and he said that isn't key-holing; this long bullet simply hasn't "flattened out yet". I didn't have anything to lose so shot these same upper loads again at 100-yards. I expected them not to reach the target (because I thought they would be tumbling) and damned if they didn't shoot a great group with the bullets cutting crisp straight holes.

Let me move back to my 50-yard targets. I didn't get the targets scanned but what I have is some very nice groups with an oblong hole that is oriented from the 10:30 to 4:30 position. The holes are all consistent to this orientation and the groups are good, I've just not seen this before. The fellow that looked at this is a local rancher that favors the 308 Win with big cast bullets (I have converted him to a 444) for long distance feral hog shooting. He doesn't have the knowledge base to explain to me what is happening, just a bunch of practical experience and he insists that I can't evaluate this cartridge with this kind of bullet at 50-yards.

That sucks in a way as that last shooting I did was at 100° so I was walking back and forth between the bench and target at every shot as I wanted to see and mark each individual hole. Like I said above, I have crisp 30 caliber holes at 100-yards. I was shooting several loads of H4895, 35.5-grains gave me the best results; 2300 FPS (19 SD & 51 ES). I didn't have the PT gear hooked up but this should have been generating 39.0K to 40.0K PSI. I believe it was as 36.0 and 36.5-grains started to increase the size of my groups with very little increase in velocity (2330 and 2345 FPS). I will have to increase the BHN of my alloy to make these pressures work. While shooting 10-shot strings for the chronograph, I had several 3-shot groups that could be covered with a quarter (I was also using this shooting to adjust my scope for a 100-yard zero).

I'm pretty excited now but my mentor on this project said not to be. He said that I'm using the wrong powder (he knows that I'm working with Hodgdon as he does) and that I need to use the slowest burning powder for the task at hand because of the pressures this cartridge is designed to operate at. He feels BL-C (2) should be the first choice and Varget second. I showed him my load records for BL-C(2) and Varget and he said "too bad you didn't shoot them at 100 or more yards because you would be done by now... go back and shooting them again". Based on his initial recommendations and the results I saw from H4895 when I went out and shot them at 100-yards, that is exactly what I'm going to do. I'm going to load up and shoot BL-C(2) and Varget at 100-yards vs. 50-yards.

Just to surmise, what I saw at 50-yards was consistent groups with oblong holes (say... caliber X 1.25). If the bullets are scattered, something else is at play.

VTDW and I communicated late last week and he knows how frustrated I was (ready to throw the 308MX in the trash) but my last experience has me pumped up again!

For the record... my alloy is a Lyman #2 clone with #8 shot added and water quenched. The Lee Hardness Tester indicates a BHN of 21. The bullet is sized with a .311" Lee sizer and seated to an overall length of 2.46".

I will keep you posted as my work progresses this week.

[dubber123]

Michael, have you considered oven heat treating?, I have gotten BHN #'s approaching 30, (per LBT tester), by doing this.

I found I didn't need them this hard, and tuned it in to 18-20, but it sounds as if you might benefit from this technique. Of course, scoring some Linotype would work too.

[Bass Ackward]

Yep. The wider the meplat, and the faster you push, the longer they can take to go to sleep.

I think you are going to find excellent accuracy around the 4320 / RL15 to 4831 area myself. At least this is where I get it with about that case volume.

[runfiverun]

36.o gr 4831 will get you about 1700, and probably some unburned powder.
starts to go away at 38 gr though.

[VTDW]

All my testing for the .308MX and the RD 165 has been at 50 yd. That is the nice thing about reloading...you get to shoot a lot.:drinks: My boolits are water quenched 50/50 WW/Lino and are 28Bnh. Sized .311 but the longest I can seat IIRC is 2.36 and that is touching the lands. I have never encountered boolit holes that can actually be more than a foot apart at 50 yd. I use the RD Postal match targets stapled with a bit of overlap so I look at a board covered with numbered targets. When I can't see my last shot all I have to do is look on the surrounding targets.:confused: No leading but no accuracy either. This cartridge is something else!! Much harder to reload with cast boolits than straight cases. If I wasn't already getting a bit thin on top I'd pull out some of this hair.:mrgreen:

Now back to the loading bench and on to the 100 yd target.:-D

BTW Ranch Dog, I hang on your every word since you are using pressure trace equipment. Every tidbit you write gets saved for my digestion. Thanks!!!

Dave

[Ranch Dog]

Thanks for the comments guys. I've got about 1800# of linotype from an abandoned printing press and 2500# of WW. I choose to stir up a Lyman #2 clone as the end result of my shooting is going to be a chart that some fellow might want to follow in his reloading endevours. Most guys don't have access to the linotype.

I'm sure I'm going to be able to see good shooting with the Lyman #2 at 2350 FPS and 2500 FPS with a linotype 50/50.

I went back and looked at some of my shooting with the Hornady factory ammo and it wasn't really that good as far as the groups shot...
RD's Nuts & Bolts Look at the 308 ME (http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,27078.0.html). That 100-yard group is very representative of what I saw with the ammo and about what I'm seeing with the cast bullets. I might take need to take a closer look at the barrel and a couple of other things.

[w30wcf]

Ranch Dog,
As I recall (my memory isn't too good these days), wasn't the type from the print shop you purchased in single letters? If so, it would be monotype. Mixed 50/50 with w.w. = linotype

In my experience, oven heat treated w.w.+2% tin will shoot aok at 50,000 c.u.p. in a 10" twist .30, so if the bullet fits the barrel, and good lube is used, accuracy in the .308ME with max loads should be ok.

I find that a 50/50 lino / w.w. alloy starts to lose accuracy much over 2,200 f.p.s. and linotype works aok up to 2,500 f.p.s. in the same 10" twist .30 barrel with 170 gr. cast bullets.

w30wcf

[Ranch Dog]

Ranch Dog,
As I recall (my memory isn't too good these days), wasn't the type from the print shop you purchased in single letters? If so, it would be monotype. Mixed 50/50 with w.w. = linotype

In my experience, oven heat treated w.w.+2% tin will shoot aok at 50,000 c.u.p. in a 10" twist .30, so if the bullet fits the barrel, and good lube is used, accuracy in the .308ME with max loads should be ok.

I find that a 50/50 lino / w.w. alloy starts to lose accuracy much over 2,200 f.p.s. and linotype works aok up to 2,500 f.p.s. in the same 10" twist .30 barrel with 170 gr. cast bullets.

w30wcf

I have a mix of both in that 1800#. I have quite a bit of certified bar stock and then the single letters (mono). All my casting from the last couple of years has come from my 2200+ of wheel weights and tin as I'm trying to use material that others tend to have.

I did do some experimenting with oven heated bullets a couple of years ago but didn't like the performance I saw on game. I killed 18 hogs half with water quenched bullets and half with heat treated bullets and with the oven tempering I saw little or no expansion. Those bullets left me with a lot of blood trails to follow despite some very lethal hits. The last critter I've killed with a "heated" bullet was a large, mature whitetail buck that I shot with my 444 at about 65-yards. At the shot the deer turned and ran right under the tripod I was sitting on. The exit wound was exposed and as it ran past me it heart slipped out of the wound, still attached and operating, outside of it's body. That rattled me, I shot again and missed. I found this trophy deer about 100-yards away. The 44 caliber bullet has passed within a fraction of an inch of this deers heart and was lethal but did very little damage.

With the water quenched bullets I still get shoot troughs on heart/lung hits but all the vitals are jelled and my critters take few if any steps. Shooting the oven treated alloy would correct the performance issues with this cartridge but I would not consider it a choice on game especially at the end of it's performance envelope. As you can tell, to me all the casting and loading issues end up impacting an animal. If a fellow was just interested in performance at the range, mono/lino and an oven could maximize the cartridge quickly.

My previous spouse, God bless her departed soul, didn't appreciate my casting techniques when she came home and found that I had spent the day "baking bullets". In that I learn from my mistakes, I would need to purchase an oven for this task should I venture into this endeavor again. When I built my barn/garage/reloading room, I did wire it for an oven!

[sundog]

RD, interesting observation about hardening methods. Thanks for sharing that with us. Have you recovered any of the boolits? I'm assuming not.

[Junior1942]

RD, my brother had that same exposed heart situation from a buck shot with a 270 w/130 gr jacketed. His deer ran a mile and died only when it tried to swim the river. The water hit the heart and went inside the chest cavity, and the deer died and sank, lost.

[Ranch Dog]

RD, interesting observation about hardening methods. Thanks for sharing that with us. Have you recovered any of the boolits? I'm assuming not.

Very, very few. I even tried killing some hogs head on, stem to stern, but the bullets always went the length of the critter and kept going. I did recover a bullet from my nilgai which is a very large critter. The first shot, at 120-yards from my 444 broke both shoulders and kept on going. The second shot, at 165-yards, was at the base of the tail. This shot broke the spine and hips and traveled just under the spinal column and out the front shoulder and then lodged in the shield (which is at least twice as thick as the shield on the largest feral hog boar I've seen). Both of the bullets were 50/50 linotype/wheel-weights and water quenched. The nose of this bullet seems to have been erroded with it's passage.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Hunting/2004/TLC432_vs_Nilgai.jpg http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Hunting/2004/Nilgai_Kill.jpg

I've got two recovered 95% wheel-weight 5% tin bullets and believe the image here (I'm traveling so I don't have the info I have at home) is from a feral hog. It is not uncommon to kill several feral hogs with one shot as they are always traveling in such tight packs. I got luckly with two large hogs on a shoot through and recovered the TLC432-265-RF bullet out of the shield on the far side of the outside hog. This a 95% wheel-weight 5% tin bullet. The alloy has 1 oz. of #8 shot added and then water quenched. BHN is 21. I don't think the mushroom could be any better.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Casting/tlc432_mushroomed.jpg

Steelbanger's son, Michael, did a job on two feral hogs with a bullet of the same alloy, my TLC460-425-RF, from my 450 Marlin but we never recoved the bullet.

[MT Gianni]

I think that there is something about a heart shot that can cause an animal to sprint though it's dead on its feet. I shot a whitetail in the early 90's that went off at a dead run with little blood trail for the first 30 yards. He went 120 yards and his heart was loose in the chest when I gutted him. 308 165 gr j words. Gianni

[6pt-sika]

I'm curiouse .

Is heat treating or water quenching necessary to kill hogs if they are of normal size 100-200 pounds ?

Also is an alloy harder then straight wheel weights totally necessary ?

I am thinking if I make my alloy 50% WW's and 50% Lino my hardness should be about 15 or 16 with aircooled . Basing this on the assumption that WW's are about 9 and Lino is about 22 .

These questions are more for the 44 and 45 caliber bullets then they are for the 311-165 .

[w30wcf]

Ranch dog,
Thank you for the update. You may already know this but if you oven heat treat w.w. then stand them in a pan of water to cover up to the first driving band, leaving the forward section exposed.

Apply heat with a torch to take the hardness out of the forward section, thus returning it to normal w.w. hardness. The portion below the water remains heat treated to stand the higher velocities and the forward section will then be elastic to expand properly.:-D

w30wcf

[VTDW]

Craig,

50/50 will air cool and age to 22-23 Bnh.

[6pt-sika]

Craig,

50/50 will air cool and age to 22-23 Bnh.

So then air cooled 50/50 should be plenty hard enough for good pentration in normal weight pigs .

So am I correct in assuming air cooled WW's are only 9 BHN ?

Also how hard will straight WW's be if they are water quenched ?

[Ranch Dog]

Is heat treating or water quenching necessary to kill hogs if they are of normal size 100-200 pounds?

Craig,

The real issue here is not the killing authority of the lead bullet, it is the survivability of the bullet as it experiences the chamber pressures applied to propel it. You have to get it out of the barrel first. Consider this Phase I. Phase II would be the bullets performance at the target berm or when it strikes game.

The treatment; air-cooled vs. heat treated vs. water quenched is more about applying a treatment to help the bullet survive the intended chamber pressures of Phase I of a bullet's life cycle than it is on Phase II (performance on impact).

A lot of casters consider Phase I to be controlled by velocity issues but I feel generated chamber pressures have a greater impact on the survivability of a given bullet alloy. In general and based on my experience with pressure trace recordings, WW based alloys that are air-cooled can survive pressures no greater than 25.0K PSI to may be 28.0K PSI. Water quenching forms a tougher outer core on the bullet that will survive pressures at 40.0K PSI. Honestly, I don't have a firearm capable of determining the survivability of a "baked" bullet. My leverguns don't generate that type of pressure.

There is no doubt that an air cooled bullet will flatten out when it strikes game at reasonable terminal velocities but I have seen air cooled bullets "fail" because the loads that were developed to propel them (by limiting chamber pressures to produce acceptable results in accuracy) didn't have enough energy to penetrate and kill. Additionally, we each have different ideas or expectations for our bullets. For instance in my case, I'm not interested in shooting a cast bullet that isn't capable of matching jacketed bullet velocities for the given caliber.

[Ranch Dog]

Also how hard will straight WW's be if they are water quenched ?

My tests indicate about 19 BHN.

[Ranch Dog]

You may already know this but if you oven heat treat w.w. then stand them in a pan of water to cover up to the first driving band, leaving the forward section exposed.

That is what I've been thinking might be the ticket for the 308MX. I still have got to come up with an oven for the initial heat treatment!

[Ranch Dog]

I think that there is something about a heart shot that can cause an animal to sprint though it's dead on its feet. I shot a whitetail in the early 90's that went off at a dead run with little blood trail for the first 30 yards. He went 120 yards and his heart was loose in the chest when I gutted him. 308 165 gr j words. Gianni

Yeah, they do that Gianni. I must have a big hole knocked in them to leave me a good blood trail as once they hit the torn ticket in this country (and they all head that way), they are gone.

Here is a example of a blood trail these water-quenched, Lyman #2 bullets are leaving. This image is from a hog shot with my 336-44 and the TLC432-265-RF. The hog was shot through the heart.

http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/images/Hunting/2005/Hog112405 Blood Trail.jpg

[6pt-sika]

My tests indicate about 19 BHN.

I think this will be the avenue I will try first !

[w30wcf]

Ranchdog,

A toaster oven works great. I have one that is about 15+ years old (Toastmaster by McGraw Edison) and still does a dandy job. I use a round staynless steel basket that has multiple holes (to let the water in quickly when quenched) to place the bullets into base down.

I drilled a small hole through the top center to place a lead thermometer through and into the basket so that I can monitor the bullet temp. The oven does a good job of holding the temp within 10 degrees cycling between 450F and 460F. About 1/2 hr. after the bullets are up to temp, I remove the basket with pliers and quench it quickly into a bucket of water. I wear a long sleeved shirt and glove when I do this to keep the small bit of steam from toasting my skin.

I then dump them on a towel and roll them around a bit to dry them off. I wait at least until the next day to g.c. and lube them in one of my lubrisizers after they have had a chance gain some b.h.n.

All in all, I have found that method to work very well.

w30wcf