Breech plug grease [Archive]

Tatume

12-25-2016, 01:56 PM

There's a bunch of good anti-seize compounds, some better suited to some applications than others. Airplane spark plugs screw steel into aluminum, and a copper-based anti-seize works well. Muzzle-loading rifles, whether it's breech plugs or nipples, are steel on steel, and an aluminum-based anti seize works better than copper. With stainless steel inline barrels and breech plugs, and possibly with titanium percussion nipples, a nickel-based anti-seize might be best, but I have no experience with them.

I use Permatex brand, because it's readily available. I'm sure others work well also.

Omnivore

12-25-2016, 02:53 PM

The fascination with the removal of breach plugs among a subset of muzzleloaders eludes me. I fully understand that it exists, and that it has been a technical pursuit among a subset of manufacturers, but the actual point of it has yet to occur to me, given that many a life-long, experienced and accomplished shooter has never once removed a breach plug.

Loudenboomer

12-25-2016, 03:06 PM

My observations have been that the oatey product is thicker than the antisieze products I have under the bench but still non hardning. It works better than most because it's able to completely seal out combustion pressure and crud.
Just thought I'd pass it along as many will have it in their bench stock as a thread sealer.

Loudenboomer

12-25-2016, 03:10 PM

Never removed a breech plug??? OK Maybe on side locks but have you ever cleaned an inline?

rfd

12-25-2016, 03:12 PM

i expect a trad muzzleloader to last a goodly long time. to insure than longevity, and to care for the stupid things i'll do (that dry ball that refuses to budge for sundry reasons), i want access to all the gun's holes, nooks and crannies. anal? maybe. don't care. never a problem for me. i have the proper tools to pull off breech plugs, offshore or onshore.

getting anti-seize on the threads when they're new, or have been well cleaned, is very important.

ALL the offshore guns i've either assembled or worked on have breech plugs, vents, bolsters, clean out screws, and nipples that were simply screwed all together and then trucked off to belgium for proofing. no lube used for any of the screw threads. this is what the breech and chamber from an investarms flint rifle looks like before loading and firing the first shot ...

http://i.imgur.com/9USnbim.jpg

... and after cleaning (look at that big ante-chamber on the patent breech) ...

http://i.imgur.com/3MCL9Ld.jpg

... and lubing with nikal ...

http://i.imgur.com/j6lP0ME.jpg

knowing that i've personally anti-seize lubed all the threads of ANY screwed-in barrel component is my personal piece of mind that the mitigation of bp residue is greatly quelled to those areas, and that i can EASILY take off any of those components IF the need be. that's about it, surely works for me. :)

Loudenboomer

12-25-2016, 03:19 PM

I like your plan rfd

JWFilips

12-25-2016, 03:43 PM

Built a lot of Flintlock Long Guns: My Breech plug grease is Black Moly with powdered graphite

waarp8nt

12-25-2016, 09:16 PM

rfd your proof a picture is worth a thousand words. Interesting to see the investarms as shipped vs disassembled and cleaned. I believe the key words in your tutorial are "proper tools". Over the years I have seen far too many traditional muzzleloaders ruined by those who do not have the proper tools or skills to disassemble them.

carbine

12-25-2016, 09:24 PM

We shoot muskets competitively. Use hi temp anti seize from member who is a plumber.
pull breech plugs at the end of every season. Have seen plugs similar to those in inlines

beemer

12-25-2016, 10:34 PM

I only have traditional muzzleloaders, I put the breech plugs in and I want to be able to take them out. I use the old gray pipe joint compound, after several years the plugs come out easily and look just fine. One of my rifles has had the plug removed several times in 40 years and is in great shape and it has been shot a lot. I don't know if anything will work better but I feel that the threads need some kind of anti-seize or grease.

A properly seated breach plug is the most important part of the rifle.

Dave

OverMax

12-25-2016, 11:57 PM

Since day one I've use some kind of slick silvery looking automotive store bought Anti seize grease sparingly smeared on my side-locks nipple threads after my barrel cleaning/drying. A simple remedy to a age old problem i.e. (Rust & corrosion on a nipples snail threading.) As far as pulling a side-locks breech plug. Got the tools here to do. Just never found a need too in those 30 plus years of my shooting one or two B/P rifles.

FergusonTO35

12-26-2016, 12:33 AM

I use Bore Butter on the breech plug of my NEF Huntsman and it works just fine for that purpose. I already coat the bore with the stuff and do remove the plug every time I clean the rifle. If I ever go to a cleaning routine that does not include removing the breech plug I'll use Permatex gray anti-seize which works perfectly for auto needs.

rfd

12-26-2016, 08:24 AM

FWIW - some standard good-to-have breech pulling tools ...

rice barrel co. octagonal vise clamps. each plate has a neodymium disc magnet inset that keeps the clamps firmly stuck to the vise jaws. $40.

http://i.imgur.com/9etQVMo.jpg

patent breech socket (ebay). they come in various sizes, this is a 15/16" and has a cut out required for a percussion bolster/snail. about $20.

http://i.imgur.com/fzbqKn8.jpg

add in an 18" reed corp flat jawed wrench and we're good to tackle those offshore patent breech plugs. $70. (with some nasty breech plugs that were never anti-seize lubed, i add in a three foot 2" black pipe extension to the reed corp for extra leverage to break a bp residue compromised plug). notice how the socket wrench is shimmed with strips of aluminum can to take up any slack in the fit over the patent breech plug.

http://i.imgur.com/7X6z3nR.jpg

for onshore classic breech plugs i use a rice barrel co. plug wrench socket that'll fit all plugs. $30. add on a three foot 3/4" black pipe for leverage.

http://www.ricebarrels.com/breech%20plug%20wrench-4.jpg

FrontierMuzzleloading

12-26-2016, 05:50 PM

That shows the quality of an investarms barrel :takinWiz:

On the new inlines like the cva wolf/optima and accura v2 we have in the family, these require no anti seize. On the older style plugs and especially #11 nipples, I use white teflon tape. Keeps moisture from slowly seeping into the threads over a week long hunt. Plus they come out easy at the end of the day, and no messy greases to deal with.

rfd

12-26-2016, 06:29 PM

oh no, so contrare, jon. the absolute WORST trad ml's i've ever worked on in the last 50 years are the spanish built ones - cva, traditions, and a few other horrible junkers. some that were new were impossible to remove their patent breech plugs and appeared to be welded on. that might be the reason that traditions clearly states in their trad ml manuals not to remove the breech plug, and in the last traditions manual copy i had it expressly states that breech plug removal will bugger the barrel. no such warnings from investarms, and in fact they advise breech plug removal IF required.

it should be well noted that the proofing residue found in almost all offshore barrels - that includes the spanish guns - is not a corrosive glob of rust, it's something entirely different that remains after proofing and should be cleaned out prior to the owner's first load and firing.

FrontierMuzzleloading

12-26-2016, 07:40 PM

Does Investarms tell the customer that its ok to remove the breech plug in the warranty book?

rfd

12-26-2016, 07:47 PM

Does Investarms tell the customer that its ok to remove the breech plug in the warranty book?

yes, it does. not so with your traditions.

FrontierMuzzleloading

12-26-2016, 08:09 PM

Where in book do they say its ok for the unqualified gunsmith to remove the breech plug?

Traditions offers one thing that lyman/investarms does not.. A lifetime warranty - Backed by qualified gunsmiths to know their products and can work on them.

I have 5 of those spanish guns on the wall, the oldest from 2006 I believe. None ever needed breech plug work and I highly doubt they ever will.

My dad does have one of those investarm hawkens however.

Guess which one of all those rifles in the family is the least reliable?

rfd

12-26-2016, 08:13 PM

ain't gonna argue with you, jon - call up lyman/investarms, then talk at yer traditions people. i think yer missing the big trad ml picture with regards to these offshore sidelocks and their breech plugs. have a good night.

FrontierMuzzleloading

12-26-2016, 09:16 PM

Nothing to argue about. Investarms apparently come rusty and crusty & in need of work, While all of my off shore traditions came looking like this.
http://i1331.photobucket.com/albums/w581/FrontierMuzzleloading/Traditions%20Firearms/Snapshot000000_2.jpg

rfd

12-26-2016, 10:37 PM

keep dreaming, jon ....

rfd

12-27-2016, 06:42 AM

i'll be preaching to the gun crank choir but perhaps this will help newbie pilgrims ...

any new unfired gun of any flavor, before its first loading and firing, needs to at least get its barrel swabbed out of any oils, residue preservatives, gunk, and perhaps even metal rifling filings. there is nothing about the gun itself that demands removing, this is just a cleaning task. after wet cleaning with jagged patches, running down drying patches may also reveal any roughness to the bore if the patching material is frayed, nicked, torn, etc. those issues can also be addressed prior to the gun's shooting baptism.

with trad ml's, there is no pressing need at all to remove breech plugs or bolsters, but it would be prudent to at least remove, clean, and anti-seize lube vent liners (if removable) on flint locks, and nipples and clean out screws for cap locks. auto store permatex a/s lube works just fine for any of those chores. this is just good common sense.

the ultimate steps to take with that new trad sidelock is to a/s lube any and all things that are screwed into the barrel, to make future removal of such things easy or at least doable. once the bp residue migrates into plug, bolster, liner, clean out, nipple threads, (oh, and it will!), maintenance takes on a whole new chore that may be un-doable. this is particularly true if proper ml cleaning/fouling maintenance hasn't been observed.

mooman76

12-27-2016, 08:42 PM

rfd

12-28-2016, 09:22 AM

I hope some newbie doesn't get the idea he needs to or can go about removing the breech plug with all this talk about it. Obviously rfd knows what he is doing and he has shown he has the proper tools. Don't think you can get out the ol big pipe wrench or giant crescent wrench and go to town. Quite a few new guys have already tried this and destroyed perfectly good barrels thinking they could.

yessir, as i posted up above - "with trad ml's, there is no pressing need at all to remove breech plugs or bolsters".

i know of guys who are pulling off plugs with pipe wrenches, with the barrels locked in vises (sometimes they even remember to pad the vise jaws), and all of that will really mess up barrel and plug metal Big Time. having the right tools for the job at hand is THE way to go. yep, more money spent, it's what we gun cranks do best of all ... 8-)

FrontierMuzzleloading

12-28-2016, 11:46 AM

seen plenty of tc's on facebook pages where they come in asking where they can order a new BP because they messed up the hooked BP and twisted it off.

fiberoptik

01-11-2017, 03:22 AM

Seem to remember in the Corps the aircraft mechs used Philip's Milk of Magnesia on spark plug threads.

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GoexBlackhorn

01-12-2017, 08:01 PM

i use nikal, best anti-seize i've ever used for anything connected to the barrel.

http://i.imgur.com/7X6z3nR.jpg

..........................................^^This^^

fiberoptik

01-13-2017, 12:07 AM

Nothing to argue about. Investarms apparently come rusty and crusty & in need of work, While all of my off shore traditions came looking like this.

Possibly because neither Traditions or CVA ever proof their guns??

http://www.randywakeman.com/DangerousMuzzleloadersAHistory.htm

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FrontierMuzzleloading

01-13-2017, 10:47 PM

like i said above, anyone that quotes Wakeman, obviously doesnt know his background and that hes full of poopers. I have plenty of german members over at my place and when they get a gun, it MUST go through the proofing house where they fire something like 25% over max load, before releasing the rifle to the owner. A ton of traditions rifles in germany and other european countries. Odd how we never read about safety issues over there huh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XSkhtcAL1w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11h8nMzOYok

I proof tested mine today and I didn't even pull the breech... oh yeah... lets not go there [smilie=1:
185184

fiberoptik

01-14-2017, 02:16 AM

I admit I don't know his history. He does say that there is no law regarding muzzleloaders requiring proofs before importation to the States. I have 3 CVA's & a Traditions; the price was right & I assumed that the proof marks were proof that they actually were proofed! I didn't come across his website till much later.

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jjarrell

01-22-2017, 06:50 PM

Look guys. I've seen the very controversial things written about whether some manufacturers proof test or not. There aren't nearly as many muzzleloaders that blow as people say there are. If rifles let go as much as people say they do none of us would shoot them. Now, there are going to be occasional flaws in all manufacturers products. ALL manufacturers have documented instances where one of their guns blew. But it's nowhere near as common as people make it out to be, or should I say nowhere near as common as attorneys make it out to be. (They use these tactics because that's the only way they can win their clients case) I'll also say that the ones that blew were most likely because of the genius stuffing it and pulling the trigger. Not because of a sub-standard product. The first Muzzleloader barrels were built from wrought iron and served their purpose quite well. I would hazard a guess that not a single manufacturer out there today uses barrel steel that is weaker than wrought iron. This is just my opinion guys, I'm not trying to start a fuss.

rfd

01-23-2017, 09:23 AM

yes, the chances of modern steel barrels blowing up are slim to nil whence compared to a wrought iron 18th or 19th century barrel. however, i'd still want to see a proof mark on offshore barrels. i want some evidence that someone cared enuf to ensure that there wasn't a metallurgical defect in that super strong steel barrel - or its plug. in doing so, this is a check on offshore manufacturing that defective barrels aren't coming onshore here. it's that simple. to each their own. ymmv.

FrontierMuzzleloading

01-23-2017, 11:27 AM

lol you just want to see off shore muzzleloaders tested and not American made tested?

You do realize cva and traditions sell tons of muzzleloaders throughout europe and they are sent off to the proof house long before the owner tests them and firing with something like 30-45% over max loads before getting the green light and the owner taking control of them.

rfd

01-23-2017, 11:33 AM