44 special/44-40

[iron brigade]

Good morning
I shoot a Uberti Henry 44/40 in civil war Skirmishing, I use the Lee dies and want to use a carbide sizing die, but as far as I know, no one makes one. My thought is maybe a 44 special carbide sizing die would work....just to size the neck. Has anyone tried this?
Thanks, ironbrigade.

[Outpost75]

The .44-40 brass is much thinner in wall thickness than .44 Special and I am fairly certain that the carbide ring of a .44 Special sizer would NOT neck size .44-40 brass enough to hold the bullet securely against compression of the magazine spring. If you have the .44 Special sizer, it wouldn't hurt to try a few, but I'm betting against it, just based upon the SAAMI maximum cartridge dimensions at the case mouth, there is about 0.010" difference...

[Wally]

I tried it....the .44 Special carbide sizer will not reduce the .44-40 case enough.

[curator]

iron brigade,

As you know, the .44-40 is a bottle-necked case. Carbide dies are only made for straight-sided cartridge cases. You can neck-size with the full length sizing die by backing it off far enough so that it won't set the shoulder back. That would provide better accuracy than full-length sizing but not reduce the need for lubing cases. The Henry rifle feeds full-length sized reloads reliably but may become stiff with neck-sized only cases, Yeah, .44-40 reloading is a pain compared to .44 special, but that's the price of authenticity.

[johnson1942]

i have lee dies for my 44/40 which i load for and shoot in my uberti 1875 remington revolver. did not like the lee crimping die at all and bought a RCBS 44/40 crimping die and it does the job way better. the 44/40 is a fussy case to load for but it can be done correctly. my 45 long colt is extemely simple and easy to load for. have fun.

[1Hawkeye]

Iron, when I'm loading for my .44/40's I just use the standard sizer die without case lube. Your only resizing the case mouth from the shoulder up so there is not realy a whole lot of contact with the case web (kinda like neck sizing) they work fine in my uberti henry and original 92 src. I'm using rcbs dies and clean remington brass that has been tumbled in lyman green.

[Nueces]

For those who load thin neck 44-40s and have difficulty with the crimping operation, be reminded of the Lee collet crimper, which has no tendency to fold down the neck in operation.

[iron brigade]

Iron, when I'm loading for my .44/40's I just use the standard sizer die without case lube. Your only resizing the case mouth from the shoulder up so there is not realy a whole lot of contact with the case web (kinda like neck sizing) they work fine in my uberti henry and original 92 src. I'm using rcbs dies and clean remington brass that has been tumbled in lyman green.
Thanks for all the great replies. I was going to try sizing without lube but feared wearing out the die prematurely. Will try it though. I use starline brass and 34 grains of 2f old eyensford with a accurate mold 210 grain bullet. It is a big lube groove design and is quite accurate. Sized to .429. I use the Lee crimp die and once set have had no problems.

[17nut]

iron brigade,

As you know, the .44-40 is a bottle-necked case. Carbide dies are only made for straight-sided cartridge cases. You can neck-size with the full length sizing die by backing it off far enough so that it won't set the shoulder back. That would provide better accuracy than full-length sizing but not reduce the need for lubing cases. The Henry rifle feeds full-length sized reloads reliably but may become stiff with neck-sized only cases, Yeah, .44-40 reloading is a pain compared to .44 special, but that's the price of authenticity.

Almost true!
Dillon does a .223 and .308 dieset with carbide sizer. They still need to get lubed it's just for durability.

[Me not you]

I recently came upon a "bubba'd" original M92 in 44-40. Spent quite a bit of time getting it functional and safe to use (another story) though it was inherently sound and cycles smoothly. The groove diameter is 0.433. While it shoots usably with .427 200gr slugs (they seem to "bump up" to fill the barrel) I'm wondering if anyone else has dealt with a similar situation.

[Outpost75]

Accurate makes the 43-200QL heeled bullet with stop-ring nose to load for original Winchester rifles having tight-necked chambers which preclude loading a bullet large enough to fit an oversized barrel. The driving bands are .428 and the .440 nose can be sized to whatever diameter is needed to fit the barrel. The concept has been well proven in original 1873s with groove diameters of .435" and larger.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-200QL-D.png

[35 Whelen]

I load 38-40 and 44-40 and I set the dies to neck size only. I keep a tub of Unique case lube on the bench and I might smear just a smidge on the neck of every 5th case or so. I don't think you're going to wear a steel sizing die out with brass cases.

35W

[Me not you]

I happened to have a "dummy" made up with a hard cast .429 240gr 44mag bullet, so I thought I'd prime it and slug the bore. I made my first mistake loading it into the magazine. It was too long to feed into the action.
:oops:
After I got it out I inserted it into the chamber (no resistance) and fired it. The bullet went over an inch up the barrel (magnum rifle primer). It miked out at .433 right at the base; so it slugged up with just the primer.
I'm loading it with .427 200gr slugs to black powder levels since the ammo is also used in a revolver.
If I can't get them to shoot OK I'll look into a "special" mould, though fired cases accept at least .430 slugs. I may try loading some more 44mag bullets single shot style to see how they work.

[doc1876]

I also have the Uberti Henry, and I only neck size, and have no feeding issues. Just watch your over all length closely.

[Me not you]

I happen to have a set of carbide 44 special/magnum dies. I'll try backing the sizing die out so it only does the neck and use the expander/neck bell die. I have another die that will just punch out the primers. All this is to try some larger diameter bullets that might fill the bore better. IF I get this to work (or not) I'll report on the results.

[Me not you]

"The .44-40 brass is much thinner in wall thickness than .44 Special and I am fairly certain that the carbide ring of a .44 Special sizer would NOT neck size .44-40 brass enough to hold the bullet securely"

As it turns out this is absolutely true. I still have to use the 44-40 sizing die, followed by the 44 mag expanding-neck flaring die.

[iron brigade]

Thanks for doing that. I have since moved on and continue to full length size my brass.

Thankful I can use a 480 ruger carbide die to size my 577/450 cases. Works real well. Fun rifles to shoot those martini Henry's, have two.

[dromia]

I load 38-40 and 44-40 and I set the dies to neck size only. I keep a tub of Unique case lube on the bench and I might smear just a smidge on the neck of every 5th case or so. I don't think you're going to wear a steel sizing die out with brass cases.

35W


This what I do with my 44/40 Uberti Henry and 38/40 Uberti '73 carbine cases, works well for me too!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You should be able to neck size with a FL die. There may be some sizing of the body as well, with some rifles, but it is unlikely to be undesirable with a modern one.

You could make up a neck sizer with a carbide bushing of the kind used in drilling jigs. You would simply have just about any kind of die, or a ⅞ - 14 die, bored to ⅝in. (in the examples in this catalogue), and solder or epoxy the bushing in place:

http://www.eesp.co/drill_jig_bushings.pdf

I think they may be obtainable in fine graduations of ID, but 7/16in. at .4375in. should be fine for expanding to the .44-40 OD of .443in. If you want it closer, it could be lapped with diamond paste, which you can buy amazingly cheaply for diamonds from eBay or a lapidary shop.

[Eddie Southgate]

Thanks for all the great replies. I was going to try sizing without lube but feared wearing out the die prematurely. Will try it though. I use starline brass and 34 grains of 2f old eyensford with a accurate mold 210 grain bullet. It is a big lube groove design and is quite accurate. Sized to .429. I use the Lee crimp die and once set have had no problems.

Not going to wear the die out but you will very likely stick a case in the die . Lube is to keep the case from sticking in the die . Brass is softer than steel and would not wear the die . I have a set of C&H .22-250 dies with a case that has been stuck for 45 years . I left it in the die and keep it on my bench to remind myself to never again forget to lube the case .

Eddie

P.S. Who do you shoot while skirmishing with your Uberti ?

[w30wcf]

I recently came upon a "bubba'd" original M92 in 44-40. Spent quite a bit of time getting it functional and safe to use (another story) though it was inherently sound and cycles smoothly. The groove diameter is 0.433. While it shoots usably with .427 200gr slugs (they seem to "bump up" to fill the barrel) I'm wondering if anyone else has dealt with a similar situation.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,57707.0.html

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

A carbide neck sizing die for the .44-40....
41 Magnum carbide die - several years ago I bought the die and had it opened up to neck size .44-40 brass. It works very well :D for brass used in my Marlin Cowboy rifle.

For my oversized '73 Winchester in which I normally use oversized .436" bullets, a .44 Magnum carbide die neck sizes the case down enough for use with the larger bullets.

w30wcf

[iron brigade]

Not going to wear the die out but you will very likely stick a case in the die . Lube is to keep the case from sticking in the die . Brass is softer than steel and would not wear the die . I have a set of C&H .22-250 dies with a case that has been stuck for 45 years . I left it in the die and keep it on my bench to remind myself to never again forget to lube the case .

Eddie

P.S. Who do you shoot while skirmishing with your Uberti ?

Hi Ed
Skirmishing is not re-enacting, they shoot blanks. Skirmisher's break stuff. I shoot with the ACWSA, similar to the NSSA. Boat load of fun.
Say, if anyone has a rear sight for the Henry I need one. Prefer the rich cross sight if I can find one.

[1Hawkeye]

Iron , try s&s firearms they have a lot of skirmishing parts and supplies.

[Walkingwolf]

If your Henry has a tight chamber, you will get hang ups if the case is not sized enough slide in smoothly. This is a common problem with straight walled cases. Try a limited number of rounds, and test them with a dirty gun to see if they feed.

[Me not you]

I tried a batch of these and got the rifle shooting decently (finally, after key holing bullets scattering all over the paper using soft 0.427 to 0.430 bullets):
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-220gr-owc-pb/
Best of all, they feed through the action with absolutely no problems.
The bottom of the grease groove is just above the bottom of the case neck with FL resized cases.

[iron brigade]

Me not you,
Do you get any bore leading with that bullet?
I have found I have to use 20:1 lead/tin or the bore leads terribly.
Also I have to use a good lube. While shooting the rifle in competition, we shoot 3 relays and usually shoot 15-20 rounds. So 50-60 per event.

The barrel gets quite hot. I do wear a leather glove on my left hand. 5 of us on the team shoot the Uberti Henry, and all size to .429 bullet .dia.

[w30wcf]

I tried a batch of these and got the rifle shooting decently (finally, after key holing bullets scattering all over the paper using soft 0.427 to 0.430 bullets):
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-lbt-220gr-owc-pb/
Best of all, they feed through the action with absolutely no problems.
The bottom of the grease groove is just above the bottom of the case neck with FL resized cases.

Glad to see that you have had some success.:D Interesting looking bullet. I see they offer a .433" bullet as well... https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-nei-248-230gr-swc-gc/

The original .44-40 b.p. velocity was 1,300 f.p.s. with 200-217 gr bullets. What powder / charge weight are you using to try and replicate?

w30wcf

[Me not you]

The original .44-40 b.p. velocity was 1,300 f.p.s. with 200-217 gr bullets. What powder / charge weight are you using to try and replicate? w30wcf

First I must confess to committing a bit of heresy for this thread. I'm using Unique, not black.
:oops:
I don't have a chronograph, but with Quickload, I get 1225 fps and 13,000 psi. Being an explosive, black reaches peak pressure before the bullet leaves the case. Unique does so when the bullet is almost entirely out of the case. The barrel is badly corroded, especially back towards the chamber (old primers and lack of cleaning many years ago?) but the rifling is strong all the way along the bore. If it were smooth and shiny I'd be more willing to use black. I could be sure of getting all the fouling out after. The bore is certainly way oversize and I'm using samples of purchased cast bullets to find what works. I also tried some soft 0.430 bullets with Green Dot. That combination did better than all the previous loads, but was completely eclipsed by the 0.432 OWC slug. It's actually my wife's rifle, and she's becoming quite a good shot with it. She's very pleased with the way it shoots.

[w30wcf]

I have an oversized '73 (.435" average groove) with a rough barrel. With that rifle, the cleaner burning b.p.'s (Olde Ensyford & Swiss) in combination with a large lube grooved bullet (Accurate 43-215C) filled with SPG will, thankfully, shoot accurately for many rounds.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-215C-D.png

That bullet also works well with smokeless and a mold can be ordered in the diameter that one requires.

Alliant data from 2006 shows 1,100 fps in a 24" barrel with 8.5/Unique generating 12,400 CUP but that was with a 200 gr. jacketed bullet.

w30wcf

[Me not you]

"Alliant data from 2006 shows 1,100 fps in a 24" barrel with 8.5/Unique generating 12,400 CUP but that was with a 200 gr. jacketed bullet."

I'm caalculating higher pressure and velocity with slightly less powder. Quickload is inherently more conservative than most reloading manuals. Your data is no surprise. What I like about Quickload is it lets me try a variety of powders and bullets with at least safe results (within the limits of the program), in combinations you won't find in most reloading manuals. In any event, with the rifle being made in 1894, I prefer not to push it very hard. I used it to try GreenDot with 200gr bullets to see if I got better bullet fill of the bore without overdoing it. That's not a common combination in reloading manuals.

I can "tweak" the inputs in Quickload to be closer to real world, by using the capacity of a fired case, working the bore cross-sectional area, bullet hardness and so on.