Lee 357 semiwadcutter for deer?

[Elbow]

Still trying to pick a boolit for my henry 357 for deer hunting. Thinking of the Lee 358 158 swc with gas check. Seems to me I could drive it faster with the gas check and using 50-50 wwpb alloy I would get some expansion too. What do you guys think? I'm new to the 357 for hunting looking for advise.

[Ben]

I'm thinking 175 gr.or heavier .

Something like this might be a good compromise for good velocity and good striking and penetrating ability for the 357 Mag. in your rifle.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-180E-D.png

Ben

[45-70marlin]

Elbow, that bullet will work fine. I shot a deer with the Lyman swc about the same weight. Knocked the doe off her feet and was dead right there. That was with a marlin 357. It's all about shot placement.

[tsubaki]

If I had that choice, here are a few of the considerations I'd be looking at.

158gr--1700fps muzzle velocity = 1014 ft.lbs. At 100 yards 748 ft.lbs.
170gr--1650fps muzzle velocity = 1028 ft.lbs. At 100 yards 774 ft.lbs.
180gr--1600fps muzzle velocity = 1023 ft.lbs. At 100 yards 660 ft.lbs.

[Screwbolts]

IMHO, don't get caught up in the velocity trap. I and members of my family have harvested many deer with a 357 rook rifle I built. Before I got the NOEs 180 and 160 versions of the 358 WFN, I used a Lyman 158 gr RFN PB and Ohause 158 gr SWCs PB all loaded for a very quiet less than 1200 FPS load. The first 4 deer were harvested with 4Gr of Bullseye in 357 cases for a Cronyed 1175 FPS from my 18" barrel , always complete pass threw. Let the meplat work and eat right up to the wound channel.

Find a load that shoots great and go hunting! Many Nieces sat with my late dad and harvested their first deer with my little rook.

Ken

[cherokeetracker]

Screwbolts gave you some really good advice. I have used the 173gr with a 38SPl case, and then the 180 grain WFN-PB with these giving me the best accuracy and they are both hammers.

[Hamish]

Since you're bound and determined to use that bullet, load some up and go shoot a deer. Get it up to 1400 or so and keep the shot inside a hundred yards and put it through both lungs. (nothing in the world wrong with Screwbolts info, I'd just keep it closer)

In your previous thread you asked what was thought to be the best Lee choice. I still say it's the 358-200-RF.

[kenyerian]

http://ranchdogoutdoors.com/ I've had good luck with Ranchdog's designs although I haven't used his 357 mold. I'm sure it would work as well as his other ones.

[runfiverun]

will the henry even feed a swc design?
rifles that push forward and rely on the feed ramp usually don't, the ones that aim the nose at the roof of the chamber don't like short oal's.

I don't know it's twist rate either. [1-16 comes to mind]
some of the 357 rifles out there are made to shoot the 125-140gr boolits and struggle with anything heavier.

those are questions I would want the answers to before I decided on a boolit design.
if it will stabilize the nominal to slightly heavy weights then I would just go with a RNFP design in the 160-180gr range with a good flat nose.

[PositiveCaster]

The OP seems to want a "value" mold, I suggest he try the Lee 158 RF over some H-110. Wider, sharper meplat, crimp groove further back for more powder room than the SWC, and for the velocities involved no gas check is needed. This is a hunting load, not a paper load. But in reality (not armchair fantasy), I doubt he'd see much difference between them.

In a perfect world the Lee 200 RF might have a slightly better terminal effect, but I doubt it will feed or chamber reliably in the Henry...perhaps someone has tried it.

OP, don't expect a "DRT" with your rifle. This seldom happens with far more powerful cartridges than the lowly .357 unless the CNS is hit. It seems that most folks who report this either exaggerate their rifle's terminal performance, neglect to mention it was a spine shot, or haven't shot many deer. I've taken almost 100 deer over my 50 year hunting career with everything from a .32 H&R to a .338 Magnum, and I've seen at least that many others shot. The famous "DRT" just doesn't happen that often, period. Plenty of other experienced hunters agree with me here. Just be happy with a clean kill and a harvested deer.



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[FergusonTO35]

Of all the Lee designs, I say the 358-158-RF. This boolit tends to drop around 162 grains with my alloy and the bevel base takes a gas check no problem. You can push it pretty fast without one as long as the lube and alloy is up to the task. My 1894C loves 'em.

On the topic of DRT, it has always happened to me when the deer was relaxed and totally not spooked. Fastest kill ever was last year with my .257 Roberts loaded to sedate .250 Savage power level. I placed a 117 grain Sierra Pro Hunter in the boiler room of a fat doe grazing about 75 yards away from me. The bullet struck and it was as if I had just flipped her switch to off. Field dressing showed it was just a well placed standard heart/lung shot, didn't come anywhere near the spine.

[PositiveCaster]

..will the henry even feed a swc design?....I don't know it's twist rate either. [1-16 comes to mind]...

According to the NRA, the twist rate is 1:38". No 200-grain bullets if hitting the deer is a priority.

I can only remember three times when the animal fell and never moved at the shot (non-CNS) and just once when the feet were literally in their tracks. 40 years ago, blacktail buck on Kodiak Island. An M-98 in .45-70 launching a 300-grain Hornady ~2200 fps. Shot was head-on at 200-250 yards. Standing in snow it was easy to see the foot placement. Still very rare IME.



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[FergusonTO35]

I bet that load kills at both ends!!

[Tracy]

According to the NRA, the twist rate is 1:38". No 200-grain bullets if hitting the deer is a priority.


I'm pretty sure what you're seeing is the twist rate for the .44, not the .357. 1:38" is the standard .44 (.44 Mag, .444, etc.) rifle twist, derived from the original Winchester .44 WCF rifles with their 200 grain bullets. 1:38" is not a standard .357 twist; if Henry used it for .357 it is a custom twist, and why would they intentionally make a custom twist that is inappropriate for the caliber?
It is almost certainly 1:18.75" or something similar.

In fact, I just found this info that it is 1:16": http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/henry-levers/147704-twist-rate-357-big-boy.html

[Orchard6]

I've used the the 358-158 rnfp and the 358-158 tl swc both around 1600 fps and have had great success with both boolits. A good solid shoulder shot has always dropped them where they stood for me, with the boolits mentioned above. I've used both from ranges of 20 yards to 120 yards with my Rossi 92. Don't over think it. Deer aren't armor plated. Find a load that shoots accurately in your rifle and go have fun tipping deer over!

[Blackwater]

These questions of what's "enough" keep coming up, and they surely provide fodder for a great and spirited argument around a deer camp camp fire. FWIW, I have a freind who grew up the most avid hunter/fisherman you could imagine. He spent just about every weekend with his grandpa down on the river. The was back when there weren't any deer around here, except for the river. He was 6 when he killed his first deer with his 20 ga. shotgun, and 8 the first time dark caught him in the swamp. He also has eyes like an eagle, and that's no small thing when shooting, too. His grandad hunted, fished and trapped for a living, raised a big garden for his own consumption, and did seasonal farm work for local farmers. He knew how to do most anything on the farm, like my own grandad did, but mine died when I was 3. The others all died well before I was even thought about, much less born.

Jimmie loved his grandma and grandpa, and they fed him like a king. He in turn wanted SO badly to contribute to those great meals, that he became his grandpa's shadow all weekend long, and he learned all the "tricks of the trade" (and there are many, many of those!) from ol' grandpa Bub. His interest, devotion and determination to become the very best shot he could (kind'a a competition w. grandpa, and a way to make grandpa proud of him) drove him early and hard to learn HOW to do it.

And a lot of that involved learning the capabilities of each ctg. and gun, and his ability to use them. He's killed entire semi truck loads of deer with all sorts of guns, and was THE guy to go to for farmers whose crops were being eaten away by deer. Most folks have never seen what a big herd of deer can do to a field, and many wouldn't believe it if they saw it. One more thing he learned was "waste not, want not," and he always put that meat to good use. He became quite popular with many folks there, due to asking who might need and want some venison. He's kept many older folks who love venison and can't get out to hunt any more supplied. Naturally, they love him for it, too, and he gets access to places nobody else is allowed to hunt.

I've said all this to frame this: He's found that anything from .22 LR to mid level African ctgs. do a jam-up job on deer IF (there's that word!) he simply kept them and their use within the capabilities of the ctg. and his ability to place a shot. That ability to place the shot made him spoiled early on for really accurate rifles. He shoots deer in the head with the .22 LR, and he's used both rifle and pistol for that. Naturally, he can take a bit longer shot with the rifle, but he also once shot one with his little Ruger Std. Model auto at 90+ yds. Hit it in the neck as it faced him, and it never moved out of its tracks.

So clean kills are a result no so much of claiber, but of bullet placement, and that depends on our knowledge of deer anatomy. Best way to learn deer anatomy is to dig in and dress them one's self. It's bloodier than taking them to a processor, but it pays off big time when you KNOW where everything is inside them. And bullet placement depends on our good shooting ability and our good judgment in knowing our limitations. We can always, especially as casters, learn a lot with more good practice ("good practice" is learning something from every shot we fire), and get better, and thus expand our horizons and range, but it's all in that judgment call of when and where to shoot, and when to put the rifle down and come back to do battle another day.

Another friend lives in a very nice and expensive gated community. He had problems with deer getting inside the 8' fence around where he grows his garden. A nice 8 pt. came in one day, and he, frustrated at all the things that had failed to keep them out, he grabbed his .22 and some CB caps, and decided to give that deer a headache to teach it a lesson. He put the crosshairs right between the eyes at about 40 yds., and pulled the trigger. He expected it to jump right back up, and run off. It just quivered, and then lay still. He'd brained it! And it was dead as a doornail! He just shrugged, got his coat and his skinning knife, and went out and dressed it out. This, in a really exclusive nest of rich folks, some of whom are Bambiites! But, he's just that kind'a guy, and even the Bambiites respect him because he's the homeowner's assn's treasurer and a real mover and shaker in the ***'n who keeps the rich folks from making BIG $$$$ mistakes. They hate him, but love him for what he does for them. And he gets away with things nobody there could. Nobody even bucks him any more because he's always right when he speaks.

So it's really all in the combination of one's prowess shooting, and keeping the tool's applications within due and known bounds. Bigger, fast, modern calibers and loads CAN reach out pretty darn far, BUT .... not everyone has the natural or developed ability to use all that potential. Remember, potential of the caliber and one's ability to use it defines the range one can morally take a shot. And 90% of the hunters out there today carry far more potential than they can actually make use of effectively.

Then too, if we ever get to the point that we don't think we HAVE to take every shot within sight, the hunt becomes SO much more meaningful and enjoyable. So, there are hunters and shooters, and they're different types. I cannot believe folks carry video games with them to a stand these days! All that beauty right there in front of them, and they play some video game???? Sheesh! That's no hunter! That's a "player." And playing at hunting is NOT a good way to approach it. Much better to do their hunting at the grocery store! Easier, cheaper and quicker.

But for a real hunter, one who loves and becomes "one" with the woods, a hunt is a really special experience. They drink it up, all of it, the cold and wet along with the good shot that brings home meat.

As we've become more "efficient" as hunters, with our improved tools that can reach out longer and kill more deer, we have lost all respect for the quarry and our own selves, and just become "consumers," and that's really not what hunting is all about. But that's just me. Not many seem to look at it that way any more, but if they could, and understood it, really, they'd never go back to being shooters again. Ever.

All sorts of things can be used. It's just up to us to keep them within their and our limitations. Do that, and you can honestly hunt deer with a .22. Fail, and it probably doesn't matter what you're shooting. It's the judgment part that separates success from failure in the field. We sometimes forget that.

[woodsie57]

Well said, Blackwater; i have witnessed the effectiveness of a well placed 22 on deer myself.

[DerekP Houston]

Since you're bound and determined to use that bullet, load some up and go shoot a deer. Get it up to 1400 or so and keep the shot inside a hundred yards and put it through both lungs. (nothing in the world wrong with Screwbolts info, I'd just keep it closer)

In your previous thread you asked what was thought to be the best Lee choice. I still say it's the 358-200-RF.

I have the lee 358-200-RF if you would like to try some samples out in your gun.

[DougGuy]

I have the lee 358-200-RF if you would like to try some samples out in your gun.

^^^^ This is some of the best advice in this thread. Ask for some samples of a few different boolits, see if they will indeed feed in your rifle, see if they will stay inside a tennis ball sized circle at your chosen max distance, THEN buy a mold.

[quilbilly]

Hunting deer with 45 Cal. patched round ball weighing 130 gr. taught me long ago that conventional wisdom by many experts of modern firearms is not necessarily true. My freezer has been graced with dozens of deer that dropped like stones (including my wife's a couple weeks ago) after being struck by a a theoretically too small PRB barely going 1200 fps. I watched a very large cow elk lifted completely off the ground with feet rotating skyward when struck by a 429 250 gr SWC plain base barely going 1200 fps from another one of my other muzzleloaders. Slow moving SWC's are deadly and they hit like a sledge hammer with or without complete penetration. If I were still hunting deer with modern (I may this coming year for giggles) I would use that 158 gr. boolit you are asking about and you won't need that much expansion with a SWC. On the other hand, I do have that 200 gr RNGC 358 mold and will use it for bear in my 357 max because I want more penetration against the thicker hide and heavier bones. It is still all about bullet placement just as others have said so eloquently above.

[castalott]

When talking about power... Dad was horrified that I would use a 22LR! "What do you need that kind of power for Boy?" He killed everything with 22 shorts.... Calves and hogs too... I seen his Army records... He shot Expert with M1 carbine, M1 Garand, and 45 pistol... he didn't like guns like I do...It was just a tool to him...

You put it in the right spot....and be close enough....You'll have meat just fine....


Dale

[Lonegun1894]

I have the lee 358-200-RF if you would like to try some samples out in your gun.

I have a Lyman 358156, a Lee 158gr RNFP, and probably something else I can't remember right now, and will extend the same offer to the OP if interested. Just PM me.

[Don Fischer]

Little known secret to hunting bullet's. Any bullet of any type that will penetrate to the vitals and damage them enough will kill the largest animal's on earth! They could be made out of balsa wood.

I've only been doing rifle bullet's a short time and finding that, in my 308, to much velocity ruin's accuracy. Gonna start again when the weather clears, with some faster powder. Got a lot of Red Dot and should get at or close to 1800 fps with it. Was going to hunt deer with the 308 this year the the unit I got was to far so didn't make it. Next year I'm going for my back yard or not at all!

[725]

I tend to agree that hyper-velocity isn't needed for a quick, clean kill. I like that boolit known as the bullet for all seasons from the LASC Fryxell articles.

[Ramjet-SS]

This bullet works great with the alloy you mentioned and at standard 357 Magnum velocities.

It is lethal and designed to work specifically through the Henry Action.

I took a big farm country doe 25 yard sprint and piled up hit it right behind the front leg in the boiler room. I also shot yoddle pup with it stiffened up and was DRT.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-150DG-D.png