What alloy for 38 HBWC

[RogerDat]

Just purchased a used 38 HBWC 148 grain mold and am trying to decide what alloy I should use to cast boolits in it. Some research on the forum yielded a couple of ideas.

3 parts pure (roofing lead) + 1 part clip on WW & add about 0.1% tin. (is that really 1/10 of 1 percent?)

50/50 Plain/COWW + 1 % tin.

I'm clear that these need to be soft to perform well, but how soft? I also have some solder and was considering a 20:1 Pb/Sn mix. Or something along those lines.

My first choice for lube is 45/45/10 tumble lube. I could also powder coat shake and bake but I fear that some powder could clog the hollow base.

At this point I'm looking for what lead to cast them with but I won't ignore any 38 special loads for a snubbie, or a 357 magnum loads that folks want to suggest. I have Unique and Titegroup in good supply, I also have a little bit of Red Dot and Green Dot available.

[tazman]

They don't need to be all that soft in order to work correctly. They need to be sized for your throats and barrel just like any other boolit. The problem comes when you get them too hard. The skirt can crack and break off during firing causing a variety of problems.
Almost any alloy combination that ends up not being brittle will work just fine. I can't give you a number because I don't have a hardness tester.I found that straight wheelweights(air cooled) worked fine and pure linotype was too hard if you pushed them much beyond basic light target loads. I also used range scrap both air cooled and water dropped and both worked fine.
Years ago, we used to get swaged hbwc boolits that were pure lead or nearly so. They shot just fine.
The hot 38 special loads I used often gave two holes in the target for each boolit fired. The skirt would break off but retain enough stability to carry to the target and give a second hole. Not good. A very unsafe situation if the broken skirt were to get stuck in the barrel.
I wouldn't consider a magnum load at all.

[runfiverun]

those soft swaged boolits are 3-5% antimony and no tin.
the swaging process breaks down the antimony crystals within the lead alloy allowing the lead to flow easier and smoother.
this makes them seem like a soft lead alloy, but if you cast them into boolits you get something else.

I'd use the red dot at about 2.7-3.0grs
not knowing what you have on hand to work with but assuming you got the ww's and some soft I would mix them 50-50 and add about 1/2% tin to the mix.
if you just have straight soft lead then a 40-1 alloy should turn the trick.

[JeffinNZ]

I was thinking 40/1 also.

[RogerDat]

Well I have a little bit-o-everything. Soft plain lead, WW's, and some solder bars so 40:1 is certainly possible. I already have some 50/50 with about 1.5% tin.

I have a Lee push through sizer that provides good fit, and even though I can shoot the TL design or Lyman WC I cast without sizing there is a clear increase in accuracy if I size so I'll size these. Probably TL - Size - TL in BLL or 45/45/10 I'm trying to make a bullet for accurate target shooting so I'm going to size. I have all winter to stock up so I can afford the extra steps.

For 38 special I tend to load mild 150 or 158 grain with Titegroup at 3.2 grains, or equivalent load in Unique. 357 I mostly load toward the mild end with either Unique or 2400. Well a few rounds get loaded hotter to keep myself familiar with the feel of commercial. For punching paper why waste powder and abuse hand?

I was looking for an excuse to open the 1# bottle of Red Dot to try it out, new bullet is perfect excuse. Thanks for the load suggestion.

[tazman]

Sounds like you have a plan.
Try a few different alloy combinations and find out what works best in your gun. You may find the magic combination for your weapon is a bit different than for someone else's gun.
I tumble lube my wadcutters. I haven't found any difference in accuracy between lube types for the 38 special target loads. This may be because I am not the greatest shot with a handgun. The tumble lube process is less labor intensive for me since I don't have the room to permanently mount a lube sizer at the moment.

[RogerDat]

Well tazman much of this is going out the barrel of a snub nose so even if I was a great shot which I'm not I don't think lube would make the difference especially at the ranges I'm shooting at. Tumble lube is what I'll use unless I can find a compelling reason to do the extra work.

Might try the 50/50 + tin I have to start. It is what I cast with for most revolver already. But have wanted to try some binary Pb/Sn and have a bit of time off over the holidays so...

[dverna]

Unless shooting 50 yard Bullseye, casting HBWC is more work than it is worth.....and then you need to be a heck of a shot to tell the difference. A good WC, like the H&G 50 with 50/50 lube will shoot 2 1/2" groups at 50 yards in a capable gun. The old 2.7 gr Bullseye load is hard to beat.

I have not shot Bullseye in decades but that was the load/bullet I used. Tested in a Ransom Rest.

BTW, I still used commercial 148 HBWC bullets at 50 yards for matches but the H&G for practice and Timed/Rapid.

Don Verna

[MT Gianni]

With the 358395 I had the best results with dental lead, as soft as there is. Do not over lube and do not try to over speed. If I had pure i would only add tin if it would not fill out, then 1 in 40 or 1 in 50.

[RogerDat]

I have a Lyman 358-495 mold which is a nice WC at 150 grain. I picked up a partial box of HBWC and liked them. I'll probably cast up around 500 bullets with this mold, in maybe a couple or three different alloys and that should last me a fair amount of time.

I melted down some dental foil, now if I can just find it.

[tazman]

I have the 358495 which is an excellent wadcutter. I also have the 358091 which is the same wadcutter except with a bevel base. The 358091 is easier to get aligned with the brass during loading.
I also have the NOE 360-148-wc hb(hollow base) in 4 cavity. It works well but ends up being a bit tedious compared to the other two designs and really doesn't shoot any better for me.
I also have a Modern Bond full meplat wadcutter that shoots well at close range which is what I got it for. I haven't tried it out at longer ranges yet since I already have good loads for that.
I also have a 358432 which is an awesome wadcutter and very useful in both light target and full power loads. I even picked a copy of this one up from NOE in a hollow point design. Wonderful expansion with softer alloys.
I have tried both Lee designs and had good luck with them. I have tried the double ended wadcutters from both Lyman and Saeco with good accuracy.
I have tried wadcutter designs from Magma in both hard and softer alloys with good to great results depending on the gun.
I guess it is just really hard to find a bad wadcutter design these days.
That said it is really hard to beat the consistent accuracy I can get from all my revolvers with the Lyman 358311 round nose.

[RogerDat]

......
I also have the NOE 360-148-wc hb(hollow base) in 4 cavity. It works well but ends up being a bit tedious compared to the other two designs and really doesn't shoot any better for me.....

also have a 358432 which is an awesome wadcutter and very useful in both light target and full power loads. I even picked a copy of this one up from NOE in a hollow point design. Wonderful expansion with softer alloys.
......

That first one is sort of discouraging, that is the mold I just picked up in 2 cavity. Be my first try at something with pins. I always figured rather than count on expansion I would just go with larger bullet. 45 is a pre-expanded 38 hollow point.

I think the wad cutters that have a crimp groove to seat them out a bit are nice. Certainly easier to load. Hollow point in soft lead I can see that profile having some good expansion. Actually I'm guessing it hits like a thrown brick. Bookmarked the NOE page, I may want to look into that one later. Have a couple of other molds on my wish list ahead of more 38 WC molds but always on the lookout for another mold suggestion.

[Bookworm]

I have the 358495 wadcutter mold. I love it.

I have yet to find a 38 or 357 that doesn't shoot it well. Load it to 700 fps with soft lead, or 1200 fps with CCW, it shoots well.

With my 4-banger mold, I can stack 'em up quickly when casting.

[44man]

Your task is to find the alloy that does not lead your gun. Some soft boolits will blow lead from the gap and lead the cylinder fronts and the frame.

[tazman]

I think the wad cutters that have a crimp groove to seat them out a bit are nice. Certainly easier to load. .

All wadcutters have a crimp groove available to seat them out. Usually it is used for a grease groove.
I got some of my best accuracy using a full wadcutter crimped in the middle grease groove. The front of the boolit was a tight fit in the chamber throat and rerquired a bit more effort to push into the cylinder but it shot great. Not for use in a speedloader.

[rintinglen]

Don't be discouraged--the NOE RG molds are a little finicky, but get the mold hot and run the pot hotter than usual and you'll do just fine. They do shoot well, but try to run nothing harder than 20-1 for best results, but just about anything will give you good results. 2.7-3.0 grains of Bullseye or Titegroup, 3.0-3.3 grains of WW-231/HP-38 will give you nice tight groups.

[runfiverun]

yep run them like you need a lot of boolits today.

I shoot the 091 as my main wad cutter.
except for the ones I make from the NOE 140gr 8mm mold, probably not too many gas checked wad cutter type boolit molds out there. [as a bonus the little nose I put on them allows them to feed in the lever type rifles]
as good as I shoot pistols the 358477 shoots just as well for me and is easier to make.

[Kosh75287]

Not knowing a p.s.i. figure for the 2.7/Bullseye/148HBWC or for the 2.7-3.0/RedDot/148HBWC, it's difficult to determine by the "1440 rule" what hardness would be best for your revolver. Based on nothing but my own intuition, 1:40 tin:lead seems a bit too soft, and may not give "complete fill-out" in your moulds. The 1:30 tin:lead alloy seems too hard. Splitting the difference (1:35) amounts to roughly 2.8% tin, which should give adequate "fill-out", but still be soft enough for complete obturation at pressures I would EXPECT of wad cutter loads (10,000 + 500 p.s.i.).

Since complete "fill out" is a must, this may govern how much tin must be added, whether the resulting projectile is very soft, or too hard to obturate in chamber/bore. There are various methods of hardening cast projectiles (I like water quenching), but I'm not aware of methods to soften projectiles, short of remelting, adding more lead, and re-casting them (which may reintroduce the "fill-out" problem).

[RogerDat]

Just to toss this out there since wad with gas check was mentioned, has anyone tried a wad cutter using one of Pat Marlins plain base gas checks? I have some of those Lyman's and a fellow member here sent me some plain base gas checks from aluminum cans. I applied a few and they fit well.

So has anyone shot some of those PB gas checks?

[tazman]

That is an interesting idea. My only question is, what is the specific application?
At the moment I don't see a situation where that would be an improvement over something else. Please help enlighten me.

[RogerDat]

That is an interesting idea. My only question is, what is the specific application?
At the moment I don't see a situation where that would be an improvement over something else. Please help enlighten me.

Taking a break from trying to look up the songs and artist on an old Christmas album I burned to a CD so figure I'll try to come up with a reason... or at least decent excuse.

Maybe adding a check would allow same alloy with tumble lube to work better when loaded hotter? Or maybe provide a better and more consistent bullet base than cast, one that is flatter and with consistent edge all around for more accuracy.

I use the same cast WC and SWC in both 38 special and 357 magnum. I find powder coat for hotter loads works well as lubricant but for mild plinking I will also tumble lube. Fairly soft lead 50/50 + a little Sn. I generally load mild but for the 357 I sometimes want some hotter loads, ok sometimes 38 special is nice to take up a notch from light plinking too.

I'll tumble lube and store in baggies, these are always available to whip up a few rounds but most times I'm going to size and 2nd coat TL, Some I leave plain to size and PC and probably size 2nd time after PC. Running them through a Lee size die base first works really to apply a gas check if the nose is flat.

Honestly except for loading hot 357 magnum rounds from the already cast & tumble lubed stock I can't think of any excuse to use the PB gas check on a regular wad cutter or semi wad cutter. If I know it's going to be cast for hotter loads I use a bit harder alloy, such as COWW + Sn that would be all I use for 44 magnum SWC I figure even at 44 Special loads the additional hardness is useful. Only 38 size has to go from really mild to pretty hefty.

[RogerDat]

Oh and found the album, mix of stars and couldn't place all of them driving the wife and myself nuts. Lot of people we recognized but couldn't name. Eventually enough recognized names added to a Google image search brought up the album cover which I recognized.

https://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Album-Great-Favorites-Artists/dp/B005KVBTPY

Grew up listening to this vinyl album of my parents on a turntable with an amplifier with tubes, now I have it copied to CD using a turntable and computer. And looking it up on the internet. The world is interesting place.

[rwadley]

H&G once catalogued a gas check version of #50. I guess it was unnecessary because there weren't many (any?) made.


Just to toss this out there since wad with gas check was mentioned, has anyone tried a wad cutter using one of Pat Marlins plain base gas checks? I have some of those Lyman's and a fellow member here sent me some plain base gas checks from aluminum cans. I applied a few and they fit well.

So has anyone shot some of those PB gas checks?

[rwadley]

All wadcutters have a crimp groove available to seat them out. Usually it is used for a grease groove

I have a few moulds that don't have crimp grooves. I guess that you can use grease grooves, though.

[tazman]

RogerDat---If your idea is to load them full power in a magnum case, I can see that. That use hadn't even crossed my mind.
That Christmas album has a lot of great singers on it.

rwadley-"I have a few moulds that don't have crimp grooves. I guess that you can use grease grooves, though."
My double end wadcutters don't have crimp grooves either. I was using the grease groove as a crimp groove when I loaded them long. Shot fine that way.

[Forrest r]

Keep it simple, real simple. Use plain old 50/50 pure lead/ww's and water drop them. If fill out is bad & you have rounded corners/edges then add a little tin (1%).

I do this for every hb bullet I cast. I either use 50/50 pure/ww or nothing more than scrap range lead and water drop them. Water dropping them does 2 things, makes them harder and keep them from de-forming while they are hot and dropped into other bullets.

Some of the hbwc's I cast. I also have a lyman 358395 hbwc mold along with several hb swc molds and several rnfp hb molds.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/4749b51f-9234-473f-ac21-9b4f281bc8d4_zpswmkafled.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/4749b51f-9234-473f-ac21-9b4f281bc8d4_zpswmkafled.jpg.html)

I run those hb bullets up to 20,000+psi loads, 38spl p+/45acp p+/pearce's 22,000psi or less 44spl loads.

Anything over that I switch over to solid based bullets. Your mold with the solid pins in it should make 1 heck of a thumper for the 357.

If you want to use those hbwc's turned backwards do NOT water drop them. Some 220gr hbwc's that were cast from scrap range lead and water dropped. They were shot into a tightly bundled stack of wet newspaper and shot @ 25ft. Note the hbwc (upper right) only cracked.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/1c294e6c-d002-4b74-807e-5d6064902af9_zps8worlmj8.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/1c294e6c-d002-4b74-807e-5d6064902af9_zps8worlmj8.jpg.html)

Same bullet/load/firearm. The only difference is this bullet was air cooled instead of water dropped.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44hbwcaround.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44hbwcaround.jpg.html)

Accuracy wise I found no difference between the air cooled and the water dropped hbwc's. I also found no difference between regular wc's that were cast with 50/50 pure/ww's of range scrap that were air cooled or water dropped. I 'd also be hard pressed to tell the difference between my wc's and hbwc's accuracy wise. I'm not saying there isn't a difference between a wc and a hbwc. I am saying not in my hands.

Seeing how you are starting to experiment with 35cal hb bullets. You might want to look into the rnfp designs. The old lyman 35870 for 1900 is an excellent hb bullet that can be used in the 38spl/357 and of all things show a lot of promise for 50yd target loads in the 9mm.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/358709mm_zps9110adbe.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/358709mm_zps9110adbe.jpg.html)

Keep it simple

[tazman]

The expansion in that next to last picture is impressive. I tried that with mine but didn't get that good a result. My alloy must be too hard.

[tazman]

yep run them like you need a lot of boolits today.



Don't be discouraged--the NOE RG molds are a little finicky, but get the mold hot and run the pot hotter than usual and you'll do just fine.

You guys are right. The mold needs to be run hot to work well.
The biggest problem I had with it was when opening the mold, if some of the boolits stuck to the side opposite the side the pins were on, the skirts on those boolits would crack from the pins prying against them sideways. I had to make sure the boolits released completely before opening the mold far enough to drop them out. I have a 4 cavity mold and it was not always obvious which side they were sticking to until I went to far. I cracked a lot of skirts before I got the hang of it.

[RogerDat]

It is sort of interesting the whole turn the HB around for expansion, I enjoy seeing the results. but I'm not terribly inclined in that direction. Hollow point the nose just makes more sense to me, or the ever popular bigger bullet. You know what they say 45 Colt when you care enough to send a big messy hole because nothing else will do. :mrgreen:

It is good to be forewarned about some of the difficulties with that mold. I plan to turn the mold upside down and tap handle with mold mallet fast and gentle, like tapping a desk with a pencil. It was something Duke in Fla. suggested and it has worked well for a couple regular molds that were giving me problems with sticking to one side.

Would welcome hearing any other approaches that worked to avoid cracking the skirts. Wonder if smoking the non-pin side would help?

I'm not sure I would load really hot with a regular wad cutter but was thinking 1100 fps or a touch above might be sort of fun and a gas check might help the accuracy and leading at that load. I guess I should try some with and some without GC to see if there is a difference.

[tazman]

Sounds like a good plan.
I never thought of turning the mold upside down. I guess I will have to try that technique. I never had to worry about the pins in my other hollow point molds since the boolit was so much thicker there.
The gas check idea needs to be tested, and I would be interested in hearing your results. I don't have any plain base gas checks so cannot test it myself. I don't shoot many magnum loads anyway. Almost all 38 special.

The skirt on the boolit from that mold is thicker than many of the swaged boolits you can buy. It hold up better with higher powered loads than the swaged ones do, at least for me. Possibilities are there.

[runfiverun]

I make gas checked wad cutters in my swage dies.
I don't know why I do it and I don't make too many but the bases come out about as flat and square as you can get.
they come out that way without the gas check too [shrug]

[tazman]

I make gas checked wad cutters in my swage dies.
I don't know why I do it and I don't make too many but the bases come out about as flat and square as you can get.
they come out that way without the gas check too [shrug]

I have never used swaging dies so I have what may be an elementary question. It sounds like making gas check bullets in swage dies would be very similar to making half jacket bullets as far as the process is concerned. Would that be correct or am I way off base here?

[RogerDat]

I mixed up a batch of 3.5% tin 96.5 lead. Tried casting and it was slow managed to get 75 done that are ok. Had to throw a fair number back for split skirt Really hard to maintain high temp of mold when the bloody damn bullets wouldn't come out of the mold. I got it right but never got a rhythm. I ended up dipping the mold into the melt for a 6 count every couple of casts.

All the tapping started knocking the handles loose so now I have to figure out how I'm going to secure those.

My marriage won't tolerate me trying to get into swaging but it is good to know someone does GC wad cutters even if for no major results.

[tazman]

My first run mirrored yours. It got better as the mold broke in during later uses. For some reason the square grooves in the cavities take some breaking in to release better.
It will get easier.

[RogerDat]

Thanks, this mold is used so sort of pre-broke in but since I know I can get good bullets I figure it is just de-bugging now.

[Forrest r]

I mixed up a batch of 3.5% tin 96.5 lead. Tried casting and it was slow managed to get 75 done that are ok. Had to throw a fair number back for split skirt Really hard to maintain high temp of mold when the bloody damn bullets wouldn't come out of the mold. I got it right but never got a rhythm. I ended up dipping the mold into the melt for a 6 count every couple of casts.

All the tapping started knocking the handles loose so now I have to figure out how I'm going to secure those.

My marriage won't tolerate me trying to get into swaging but it is good to know someone does GC wad cutters even if for no major results.

They say pictures are worth a 1000 words, Myself I tend to view them as a learning tool. Perhaps you should of spent less time studying alloys and more time studying mold temperatures???

Every hbwc bullet I posted pictures of above is frosted. Even the air cooled hbwc.

All's you saw is:
It is sort of interesting the whole turn the HB around for expansion, I enjoy seeing the results. but I'm not terribly inclined in that direction. Hollow point the nose just makes more sense to me, or the ever popular bigger bullet. You know what they say 45 Colt when you care enough to send a big messy hole because nothing else will do. :mrgreen:

All's I see is frosted bullets & the only way to get frosted bullets is from a hot mold.

I cast more 148gr hbwc's than anything shooting countless 1000's of them every year using a 4-cavity cramer pinned mold.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/model10hbwc_zps04bc7625.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/model10hbwc_zps04bc7625.jpg.html)

Nothing more than water dropped scrap lead or 50/50 pure lead/ww's that are water dropped, tumble lubed in 45/45/10. It's nothing to cast 40#/50# of them in 1 casting session. I get board easily anymore.

[RogerDat]

I got frosted at least some of the time. But couldn't establish a rhythm that allowed me to maintain that mold temp by just pouring. Bullet would stick on one side of the mold and by the time I was finished fiddly farting around getting it to shake loose I lost too much heat.

Pot temp is between 750 and 775 the Lee pot is turned up a number + where I usually run it.

I started with mold pre heated on hot plate, set hotter than usual but I think the pin holding screws kept the mold from making full contact. Normally coming off of hot plate it takes the sprue longer to set but not so much this time so not as hot. And the bullets popped from the mold and wouldn't come off the pins, as in take the pins off and pull and twist the bullet and finally dip the pin in the pot and melt the sucker off.

So I put a penny on either side of the pins on the hot plate to increase mold to hot plate contact. Got a couple of casts and lost too much heat in the process. Since I was ladle casting I started pouring the rest of the ladle in a stream on the back and side of the mold, got the heat back up and a couple more good casts then one stuck and the struggle time got me cool again.

Rinse and repeat.

Then I got a light bulb moment and floated the mold in the lead for a bit instead of using a hot plate, went a bit too long at first, the sprue would not set.... still waiting..... set on damp cooling rag.... still waiting and rag is dried out and smoking.... and waiting. Finally able to cut sprue and proceeded to tear skirt on both of them getting them out, me thinks maybe they were a bit soft from all the heat.

Eventually I hit on about a 5 count of dip every second or third cast and started to make progress. Still tore a few skirts but not many and they were getting fewer as I refined the time the mold spent dipped.

Then the wood handles fell off. It was late and I recalled reading of a fix for that handle problem so I nicked off for the night and I looked up the handle fixes (JB Weld the suckers on).

Tonight or tomorrow after the JB weld is set I am going to try dipping a corner of the mold into the lead pot at each cast and try to refine the supplemental heat dip timing to get to a rhythm and have the folded cooling rag a touch wetter for when I take it too far. Thing has a big black square in it from the mold being too hot last night.

Like I said I was getting some good ones so it is just a matter of working out the bugs to get a good process that maintains that state of mold and pot which yields good bullets.

Since bullets always stick to same side I'm going to go over that side with a magnifying glass and rub any suspicious looking edges with a wooden tooth pick. But I do think the problem lies with managing a consistent and correct mold and melt temperature. I may even be a bit hot on the lead and also cool on the mold. Last but not least I can vary how I pour since I'm using a ladle. Once it all comes to together I'll crank out 4 or 5 hundred. Plus a few with the flat pins in for non hollow base.

For now the adventure continues!

In the picture I couldn't help but admire the nice black paper weight you have sitting on those cases to keep them from all sliding out of the ammo can. Ammo can bulk storage is what I' doing with mine. Ammo can just makes sense because I like to do batches of something at a time. I started just throwing 100 to 200 in zip lock baggies with a piece of paper label. I can fill some MTM boxes from that when I want a box or two to go.

P.S I do appreciate all the folks that made mention of the need for heat, it allowed me to save some time by starting hotter than normal. I saved some headache from the process of working my way up from "normal" cast temps. Started closer to the right point.

[RogerDat]

Took the melt up to 800 and dipped a corner of the mold after every second cast for a count of 4. Changed how I tapped the mold handles, started sprue up and sharper until I saw the bullet pull away from both sides then flip and tap to get it fully free so it would drop off the pin. Also cut sprue at same timing but then waited just a few beats for the bullet to set before starting to try and tap it loose.

Cast 125 and was getting 10 and 8 cast runs that went pretty smooth before one would stick or tear. With what I already did I'll have enough to try out some of those suggested loads. The 75 from last night are already tumble lubed, and would you look at that I'm already set up for loading 38 special :-)

Do people size HBWC's? I was planning to just so I could insure skirt is round and concentric but wondered what other people did.

[tazman]

I use a Lee push through sizer and push them through upside down(hollow base first). When I did them nose first I got some slightly deformed skirts.

Mine dropped right at .360 so I had to size them.

[RogerDat]

Did anyone else know that modern US pennies melt if put on a hot plate on high? I used 4 stacks of pennies to rest the mold on the hot plate, otherwise the two screws that hold the pin brackets are all that touches the hot plate to pre warm the mold. The new pennies melted enough to slump at the edges and lose all the stamping that makes them money.

I ran 4 through skirt first nose down and they did size some. I will have to measure before sizing and see what they are as cast. Looked pretty good.

I was looking at those Cramer style molds, seems like they would heat more evenly, if nothing else should be easier to pour lead on the sides for more heat. I'll have to think about that when I decide to get a HP for either 45 or 38. I do like the NOE molds to, and they do RG for HP pins which are pretty much same as the HB mold I'm using.

[Forrest r]

FWIW:
I'm not trying to tell anyone how to cast bullets or use multi cavity hb/hp molds. I will say what I do and how I cast them. If you can use anything, good. If not, it didn't cost you anything.

Heating/checking the mold:
I pre-heat the molds on a hotplate, real hot. Real hot means different things to different people. Real hot to me is I heat the mold hot enough so that when I do the 1st pour into that mold it takes 20+ seconds for the puddle of lead on the sprue plate to harden. Ya I know, it sounds hot and it is, but this is telling me the pins are hot enough. I open the mold and still have to weight 5/10 more seconds for the lead in the mold to solidify. Then I open the mold and look at bullets and drop the bullets from the mold. I'm looking for 2 things with this 1st pour. Namely bullet fillout, if the bullets looked bad before I dumped them then I stop and add tin. The 2nd thing I'm looking for is the bullets to drop cleanly/no sticking. If they stick with an mold that's too hot, there's a problem with the mold. If the bullets look good and easily come out of the mold I keep casting.

Setting the cadence/pot temp:
After the 1st pour if the bullet fillout and bullet drop checks out, I'll continue pouring/casting. I count how long it takes for the 2nd pour to have the spru harden and how long it takes for the lead to harden in the mold then dump the bullets. l'll leave the mold open to cool for around 5 seconds and then pour another shot and do the same thing. Eventually the mold gets cool enough to where I don't have to let the mold cool between shots. Typically I like to see the sprue take 5+ seconds to harden getting the tell tale sink mark in them. Then I open the mold and typically wait another 2 or 3 seconds to open the mold. The bullets should fall out the same way they did on the 1st pour. If not the pot temperature needs to be raised. Every mold is different so the temps will very. Typical pot temps for me and the pot I'm using (tested with a lead thermometer and a hand held temp gun) are:
Standard non-pinned molds (al/brass/steel) (1/2/4/6/10-cavity) 725*
Steel pinned molds 775*
Brass pinned molds small pins 775* & large pinned molds 800*

I shoot for 5/6/7 seconds for the sprue to harden and 2/3 seconds to open the mold and have the bullets drop. If not I turn the pot up 25* reheat the mold as the pot heats up and try again. Doing this actually is running the mold on the hot side and frosts the bullets along with after 50/60 shots the mold actually gets too hot and need to be set down to cool for around 30 seconds. I try to run all my molds this way, doesn't matter if they have pins or not.

Anyway I run them hot and keep them hot. If they cool off while I'm casting I turn the pot up until I can cast with a cadence. Been doing the same thing for decades, molds still work, I still cast bullets with them. But like I said, this is what I do with my molds.
Start out with the mold too hot, this checks your alloy & mold/bullet release.
Cool the mold down slowly as you cast establishing a cadence.
Adjust the pot to run hot with the cadence you established.

You want it to rain bullets when you cast. More bullets cast from pinned molds (4-cavity) and yes they are frosted.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/bulletcan_zps546o5epp.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/bulletcan_zps546o5epp.jpg.html)


You want it to rain bullets when you cast. More bullets cast from pinned molds (4-cavity) and yes they are frosted.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/125grmihecascast_zpsepen91wb.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/125grmihecascast_zpsepen91wb.jpg.html)

You want it to rain bullets when you cast. More bullets cast from pinned molds (4-cavity) and yes they are frosted.
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/mp-200hps_zpsd6a81485.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/mp-200hps_zpsd6a81485.jpg.html)

Ya, it's boring. Used to cast 100+#'s of bullets from multiple molds in 1 casting session. Now I'm toast after +/- 50#.

[RogerDat]

Forest_r
I started about 25* to 50* hotter than "normal". I expected that long lasting sprue puddle coming off the hot plate, got some longer but not as long as I do off of non-pin molds at a lower heat setting. I think the mold just wasn't making good contact because of the screw heads on the bottom. I might try making a can cover with cut out for handles to trap some heat.

Last night I bumped up the lead temp a bit more. Running right below 800* and it was better, but not as smooth as say my NOE 314-200 mold, or my 312-75 mold. Those molds will drop with just a shake of the mold. Or a few gentle taps.

I asked about alloy first because I knew that commercial were soft lead swaged, and I knew that blowing the skirts off was a possibility, and that someone will have figured out what alloys work well for this type of bullet. I knew somewhat softer was needed but not how soft, or what alloys were being used. I use Lyman #2 , or #2 cut 50% with plain, or 50/50 WW/Pb + 1.4% tin, my concern was that these would be too hard and the skirt would break off or too hard to properly expand out to engage the bore. The above alloys are already mixed so I was going to be making something new anyway, might as well ask what folks recommend.

In effect I started at the beginning with what to make them from and figured (correctly) that folks with experience such as yourself would suggest how they cast the alloy that they suggest using. I went with the 3.5% tin and lead alloy mostly because I have and use alloy close to the other options, so I wanted to try a binary Pb/Sn alloy. People suggested it as viable choice. I have plenty of tin and plain....

I did get an idea about maybe mixing my WW/Pb and leaving the tin out. That way I can add tin as needed. I still work so for me having it ready to go on the shelf so I can cast even if I don't have a large block of time is an advantage. I in effect adjust cadence to the alloy & mold combination with the stock alloys I have and it has worked ok. This is just a change of both alloy and mold. Takes some adjustment to zero in as you suggest.

I was sort of tongue in cheek in my comments on turning them around as hollow points, but in truth really not my focus. Just trying out something different to see if maybe I find something that improves accuracy. Hollow base seems like it would be effective to get tighter bore to bullet fit. But as some have pointed out they are a bit more fiddly to get right. Will have to see how they shoot before I'll know if they are worth any extra effort or hassle to me. If not flat base pins go in and no loss since the mold is good one, price was good, and regular WC are useful too.

Got the handles JB welded on so that should help, tapping the handle was making the mold fall out of them, was able to avoid an actual drop but it did make it so I couldn't tip in one direction and had to be careful all the time. Dropping mold on concrete seemed like it would be bad idea.

I have to cast sitting down since my back won't take standing in one place for any length of time, hopefully going to get something done about it soon. Making ingots has been a trial of late. Been awhile since I could easily do 500 bullets at a stretch, I will say 4 cavity does make that easier than a 2 cavity :-)

[Forrest r]

Forest_r
I started about 25* to 50* hotter than "normal". I expected that long lasting sprue puddle coming off the hot plate, got some longer but not as long as I do off of non-pin molds at a lower heat setting. I think the mold just wasn't making good contact because of the screw heads on the bottom. I might try making a can cover with cut out for handles to trap some heat.

Last night I bumped up the lead temp a bit more. Running right below 800* and it was better, but not as smooth as say my NOE 314-200 mold, or my 312-75 mold. Those molds will drop with just a shake of the mold. Or a few gentle taps.

I asked about alloy first because I knew that commercial were soft lead swaged, and I knew that blowing the skirts off was a possibility, and that someone will have figured out what alloys work well for this type of bullet. I knew somewhat softer was needed but not how soft, or what alloys were being used. I use Lyman #2 , or #2 cut 50% with plain, or 50/50 WW/Pb + 1.4% tin, my concern was that these would be too hard and the skirt would break off or too hard to properly expand out to engage the bore. The above alloys are already mixed so I was going to be making something new anyway, might as well ask what folks recommend.

In effect I started at the beginning with what to make them from and figured (correctly) that folks with experience such as yourself would suggest how they cast the alloy that they suggest using. I went with the 3.5% tin and lead alloy mostly because I have and use alloy close to the other options, so I wanted to try a binary Pb/Sn alloy. People suggested it as viable choice. I have plenty of tin and plain....

I did get an idea about maybe mixing my WW/Pb and leaving the tin out. That way I can add tin as needed. I still work so for me having it ready to go on the shelf so I can cast even if I don't have a large block of time is an advantage. I in effect adjust cadence to the alloy & mold combination with the stock alloys I have and it has worked ok. This is just a change of both alloy and mold. Takes some adjustment to zero in as you suggest.

I was sort of tongue in cheek in my comments on turning them around as hollow points, but in truth really not my focus. Just trying out something different to see if maybe I find something that improves accuracy. Hollow base seems like it would be effective to get tighter bore to bullet fit. But as some have pointed out they are a bit more fiddly to get right. Will have to see how they shoot before I'll know if they are worth any extra effort or hassle to me. If not flat base pins go in and no loss since the mold is good one, price was good, and regular WC are useful too.

Got the handles JB welded on so that should help, tapping the handle was making the mold fall out of them, was able to avoid an actual drop but it did make it so I couldn't tip in one direction and had to be careful all the time. Dropping mold on concrete seemed like it would be bad idea.

I have to cast sitting down since my back won't take standing in one place for any length of time, hopefully going to get something done about it soon. Making ingots has been a trial of late. Been awhile since I could easily do 500 bullets at a stretch, I will say 4 cavity does make that easier than a 2 cavity :-)

Glad to see you’re going in the right direction.

Some people agree with starting a mold that hot, others don’t. I do so myself because from the very 1st pour I can tell:
If the alloy is good.
If there’s any mold or pin issues.
Recognize if the alloy temp is correct for my style/cadence of casting a lot quicker.
Doing this also helps me identify any mold or casting issues and be able to pinpoint/understand the causes of those issues within a couple pours. Which in turn leads to a better more consistent quality bullet with an extremely low reject count.

I was going to mention about the mold handles and ask if they were lee handles. I like and use lee handles but like you I also jb weld them in place. I get new lee handles or lee molds with the handles the 1st thing I due before I ever use them is pull the wood handles and jb weld them back on.
I swear I can just look at lee handles, don’t even have to use them and they come loose.

Good luck with your hbwc mold. I hate to say it but it’s only the molds that give us trouble that are the molds that also teach up something new.

[TCFAN]

I bought one of the 2 cavity NOE HBWC .358 molds.Like everyone else I had lots of trouble with the boolit sticking in the mold and splitting the skirt when opening the mold.What I had to do was spin a couple of boolits in each cavity with some fine grit to smooth out the cavity's.Before I did that I would beat on that mold handles till I was blue in the face to get them to release.When they did release the skirt of the hollow base would split.

After spinning a couple of boolits in each cavity and turning the mold upside down before opening it the boolit would pop right out but still hang on the pins.

I then decided that the hollow base was to deep compared to my Lyman Ideal 358395 HBWC so I cut the pins off and rounded them to match the 358395.Now the mold will really turn out the boolits. Wish now I had bought the 4 cavity.

[RogerDat]

The trick to casting HBWC bullets is ..... there is no trick! You just have to work through the process until you figure out what works. And ask around to figure out what might be an issue or solution. Stealing good ideas is what "learning" really is.

I'm not ready yet to spin a bullet with some comet or bar keepers friend on it to polish the mold. I'll move up a bit more in temp first since the last increase improved things but I have used that approach before to fix a mold that wouldn't drop bullets. It can work if edges are an issue.

According to the alloy calculator my lead/tin mix at 3.5% tin should be about 9.6 BHN I can say for sure it sizes easier than Lyman #2 rifle rounds. Ended up nearer 30:1 alloy and may cut that batch with a bit more plain depending on how the first few do when I can get out to try them.

[RogerDat]

Have 25 with 2.7 grains of Titegroup seated at 1.2 inches COAL (little projecting from case)
Then 25 with 3.0 grains of Red Dot seated 1.2 inches COAL

Then I did 15 with 3.0 grains Red Dot with bullet seated almost flush. Hope to get in front of some targets with them soon.

Official now that Red Dot in small loads meters about like rock salt stuck together with humidity. Using a Lee Pro Auto powder measure .40 disk hole for 2.7 grains was unusable. At least half the drops were < 1.5 grains. The .43 hole dropped 3.0 grains but 7 times in loading 25 cases the drop was way short. Like less than half charge. I had to dump each charge into scale cup just to eyeball it, and weigh a lot of them. Found if it "looked" right it was spot on, otherwise it looked like < half a load.

With this being a new bullet and Red Dot being a new powder I was working with turret in single stage, but since thumping the powder dispenser wasn't insuring a full charge I doubt I could use the turret auto index and get good loads. Titegroup I was able to get consistent loads with auto index. Weigh 1 out of 5 and nothing off by more than a 1/10 if that.

Didn't try Perfect Powder Measure but it will require a significant difference between Red Dot and Titegroup to make me go through the powder measuring hassle to use Red Dot at these low weight.

[TCFAN]

I have had the same problem with Red dot powder in the Lee auto disk.Never had a problem with Bullseye at 3.1 grs. using the HBWC from NOE.Very good groups at 25 yards from my 686 Smith.

[tazman]

I load on a Lee Classic Cast turret press using the automatic advance rod in place for my handgun loads. I have stopped using larger flaked powders in my Lee powder measure for loading handgun for the clumping/ inconsistency reasons you mentioned.
I stick with Bullseye, WST, 231, and Titegroup for the most part. All seem to work equally well for me both for charge consistency and accuracy.
If I am wanting to fill the case for whatever reason, I will use Titewad or Trail Boss.

One other powder I use that works really well in 38 special is CFE Pistol. I just began using it last year and it works a treat if full power 38 loads and light 357 loads.

[RogerDat]

I use index rod for most pistol but I tend to go single stage for new stuff. But yeah I'm wanting powder that I can run auto index for production creation of pistol ammo. Unless Red Dot is significantly better than Titegroup I would tend to use the TG because it meters well.

I have also heard and read a fair amount of good stuff about W231/HP38 as a versatile pistol powder that meters well.

[M-Tecs]

Did anyone else know that modern US pennies melt if put on a hot plate on high? I used 4 stacks of pennies to rest the mold on the hot plate, otherwise the two screws that hold the pin brackets are all that touches the hot plate to pre warm the mold. The new pennies melted enough to slump at the edges and lose all the stamping that makes them money.

.

Current pennies are zinc than copper plated.