Help me choose a rifle......

[waco]

I would like to buy an old surplus military rifle for plinking and target shooting. I'm not sure what to buy. I don't want to spend an arm and a leg on one I know that.

What are some good choices? I would like the price to be in the neighborhood of $300 give or take. It needs to have decent/good sights. Brass and mold options must be plentiful. And I would like something know for decent accuracy out to 100 yards with the factory iron sights.

Where would be a good place to start? If money were no object I would choose an '03 Springfield.

I'm looking forward to hearing your suggestions.

Waco

[725]

Don't know what they go for now but the K-31 is a dandy. MoissanNagants are good shooters and they are all over the place.

[1911cherry]

VZ24 Mauser? Good action and surplus ammo still available, should be a hoot to shoot boolits in, mine was. But it got traded off for a collectors grade Mosin for the kids, darn kids....

[runfiverun]

if you can find a K-31 for that price jump on it.
the old 7.65 Argie rifles are still out there and are pretty easy to get shooting.
the brass is easily made from 0-6 or the like.

same can be said of the 7.7 arisaka's. [except their triggers are usually 42 lbs]
which ain't too bad to fix since they are just a mauser trigger.

the Finn made 7.62X54's are good shooters and the only one I would even consider buying.

[Scharfschuetze]

A good tip above.

I think that right now, the Argentine M91 and the Swiss K31 rifles are probably the best bang for the buck. I see them both going for about your goal of $300 in the local shops. They almost always have a good trigger and very well fitted wood and furniture. I have examples of each and they shoot as well as any brand new rifle if your eyes are up to the sights. Mine will outshoot any 1903 Springfield that I have to way out yonder and the military long range sights let you shoot out past 600 yards with good cast boolit loads. The Swiss K31s usually have bores in the neighborhood of .307 to .308 compared to the .311 to .313 bores on the 1891s.

Whatever you buy, make sure that the bore is in good shape. Spend the money; it will save you grief later. You may or may not get matching numbers, but it's something to look for and again, I'd spend the extra money for it. It's a sign that the rifle was mixed and matched from parts like much of what came in from Russia in the 90s. I think that importing parts may have either got around import restrictions or resulted in less import tax. Just a guess.

Keep in mind that almost all of these older military rifles were fired with corrosive ammo during their tenure with both the military and probably their last owner. A lot of these rifles were bought at bargain basement prices in the 50s and the 60s. For some reason, a lot of fools who bought them operated on the principle that you didn't need to clean a rifle so try and look beyond the grime and really inspect the bores and the throats. We see posts all the time about members spending weeks getting the fouling out of old rifle barrels and finding the rifling in less than sterling shape. Better to buy a well cared for specimen than one with years of crud on and in it. Caveat emptor.

I look at old and original military rifles as an investment as well as a fun hobby and a link to past history. A few more dollars spent now will, in the end, be satisfying to you once the sticker shock is gone.

[mac1911]

Hands down sub $500 range the K31 is very hard to beat. Under valued as shooter IF I ONLY new better when these where 150$. To busy chasing the 03s.
I have a few friends that bought the M48 mausers when they where in abundance and they are decent also. Accuracy is minute of black of a SR1 target....
I will be loading some cast for my K31 soon.
Will be running the ranch dog 165 flat nose bullet...they run well in every 30 cal I shoot so far.

[dverna]

I have seen the Savage Axis for under $300....new. It comes in .308...lots of brass and molds

It is not military, but offers a lot of rifle for the money. When your eyes go....and they will....you will want a scope.

Don Verna

[Hamish]

This part of the country the only thing that gets close to that $300 price is Turkish Mausers and overinflated Mosins.

[B. Lumpkin]

Hit all the pawnshops in a 50 mile radius of you. A decent, shootable Enfield can be had for that money.

[JMax]

I bought a sporterized 03A1 made in 1934 w/scope for $200 in SoCal when I lived there 2 1/2 years ago. I regularly see sporterized 03's in gun shops and advertised in Va Guntrader at or below $300 so I would check Oregon to see if they have local gun forums that could be a source for your searches. Cali has Calguns so check what resources you have locally. I cannot recommend any milsurp rifle higher than an 03. I have had Mauser's and Enfield SMLE's but the 03 is my choice.

[ShooterAZ]

I got my Mosin-Nagant for 69 bucks back in the day. I was able to pick through more than a dozen rifles at the surplus store, and was able to get one with a good bore. It's a really good shooter with both cast and jacketed. It likes the .312 jacketed and .314 cast boolits. I'm sure if you look around you could probably find something decent. I bought my Remington 1903 Springfield from the CMP back when they had the Greek returns, and it is my dedicated favorite cast boolit shooter bar none.

[30calflash]

In the northeast the days of a $300 milsurp rile is dwindling, except for Russian M-N's.

JMax recommendation of a sporter is sound, it may have been updated with a decent set of sights, scope or stock and you could have some cash left for brass and dies.

[Andy]

You're probably stuck with 30-06 if you want brass and molds to be cheap/plentiful/always available. You can still get a garand from the CMP for $600 but I know that's above the budget you mentioned.

Are you looking for a period-correct rifle for the fun factor or is a sporterized version ok? If you're looking for something mostly period correct I think your only likely option right now is a mosin or maybe get lucky on a barely modified enfield. Brass isn't going to be dirt cheap for either though. If you're just looking for a inexpensive to fire beater you can probably find a sporterized rifle in .308 or 30-06 that would meet your requirements.

[Kraschenbirn]

About a year and a half ago, I picked up a mismatched Swiss 96/11 for $160 from a consignment auction. A thorough cleaning, a little higher front sight, and a bit of stock repair turned it into a superior shooter that will easily match my pre-war K31 for accuracy. Around the same time, snagged an all-matching (and not 'rearsenaled'!) 1938 Tula M91/30 for $175 from an old pawnshop next to a closed-down military base (also had a '99 Krag rifle with correct bayonet in his milsurp rack but wanted $1350 for it). After that, in the year before the election, the market around here went really whacko...whacko enough that I quit even bothering with the auctions and shows. While I'm not really up on current prices, my point is that there are still some fairly decent pieces out there and, now that the Wicked Witch of the Northeast has been banished, prices should begin to drift back somewhat toward reasonable levels.

Bill

[sghart3578]

I'm voting for the VZ24. I lucked into a 7X57 many years ago but I am now looking for an 8X57.

They are around $250-$300. My LGS has one for $249 and I may buy it.

I got my '03 Springfield pretty cheap. Just look online. Don't be afraid to buy a "Bubba'ed" rifle, that's how I got my '03 for cheap. I restocked it, cold-blued it and had a local smith mount a Lyman 57 target sight. Kicks butt now.

K31's have always intrigued me but I know nothing about them, or Swedes or Argentinians for that matter.

[waco]

I would prefer an unmolested rifle. A sporter is not out of the question i guess.As long as brass is obtainable. 50-100 will likely do me. A $600 Garand is a going price for a shooter? I did not know they were that cheap.
What is the cost for a shooter grade '03?
GunBroker just seems like a rip off.......

[turtlezx]

Iam with DEVERNA buy a savage new for 300 to $ 350
and you know that it will shoot well not some 100year old war relic

[dualsport]

Ishapore 2A, 7.62 NATO. For a real bargain look at the Steyr M95 8x56R. They are plentiful and economical to buy. Very fun to shoot. Have fun!

[jimb16]

Don't dis the turk mausers. I've had a couple and they were exceptional shooters with anything I choose to shoot through them. While they may not be a purdy, they are still a bargain and worth every penny.

[izzyjoe]

Turk mausers usually have well worn throats, as with any battle rifle, and they can shoot very good with boolits, but so so with jacketed. I'd say the Swiss K would be the best bet!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Soooo many rifles, so little time! I see you live in Springfield, OR. Have you ever visited the ARPC twice-a-year gun show held at the Linn Co. Fairgrounds? Huge show--you might find something there. I think the next one is in March or April. Much larger and better show than the one periodically held at the vet's hall on MLK Blvd. in Eugene.

I'd hesitate to make a hard and fast recommendation. I've enjoyed many of them. I guess my current favorite is the Czech VZ-24. Like so many have already said, the Swiss K-31 is a good one. Did anyone mention the Lee Enfield No.4? The Turk Mausers are good, but long, about 6 inches longer than the others mentioned. Krags, 1903 Springfields, 1914 and 1917 Enfields, all great fun. Most Mausers, no matter where made, tend to shoot well if in good condition. It's going to depend on a combination things--what you happen to run across that has appeal for you, cost, condition, etc. Check the bore for condition, muzzle crown for nicks, stock for cracks, headspace if possible. I'll bet that after you get your first military rifle more will follow.

Hard to say what you can get for $300. That's probably a good middle-of-the-road figure. Some of these might run a little more, up to about $450 for a nice one, but you should be able to get a Turk Mauser or an Arisaka for less. I hope you'll revisit the thread and tell us what you settled on, what it cost, and how it works out for you. There's always the unexpected bargain.

DG

[skeettx]

Sight, sights, yes as we get OLDER sights are important
Peep sights (03-A3, etc) are great for older eyes
Mike

[Jack Stanley]

A six hundred dollar Garand will probably function .... shoot well may be another story though . If the barrel is toast you'll be out north of a couple hundred bucks to replace it . Bedding and other things you can do yourself .

I'd say a Mosin with a good crown and decent bore would be a good choice for less than three "C" notes .

Jack

[sghart3578]

Waco,

Do you have a preference in caliber selection?

[maxreloader]

6.5 Jorgensen. I saw a few arsenal refinshed rifles that were in pretty darn good for around $250 a few weeks ago.

[kawasakifreak77]

Swiss K31!

[longbow]

I have pretty limited collection ~ one Mauser that was converted to .308 and 5 Lee Enfields. I used to really like the Mausers but after getting the Lee Enfields I like them better now. Not quite sure why but I do.

Partly being Canadian I guess the history has an appeal but I do like the guns and actions. Mine are all No. 4's and No. 5's. I really like the No. 4's. brass is easy to get and .303 Brit is not that far behind .30-06.

So, you said to help you choose... my vote goes to No. 4 Lee Enfield.

[nemesisenforcer]

Another vote for a Schmidt Rubin or surplus Mauser.

[Ken in Iowa]

I have a couple of Mosins that would fit the bill, a 91/30 Tula and a SAKO M39. Brass and a mould too.

Shoot me a PM if you're interested.

[waco]

So who is the Mod on this thread? Why did you delete a few of the posts?

[runfiverun]

I'm not seeing any deleted posts.
if they were removed they got wiped out of existence.

[waco]

Sorry. Me getting my posts mixed up. My apologies.

[Kegcaissy]

If i have to pick ONLY one, for components availability in the US, i would choose a mauser in .308... If you are able to find 303 british brass in your area, that would be an enfield no4 or 5, the cheaper the better but check the headspace before shooting it!

[RugerFan]

In the $300 range you can get a Swiss 96/11 with a good bore pretty easily. British Enfields can be found around that price as well. Also keep an eye out for a French MAS 36. I've seen very good specimens sell pretty reasonably.

[WILCO]

You can pick up good surplus rifles at any LGS for under $400.00.
Failing something along the American lines, I'd go with anything in 8mm Mauser.
Next would be something in Mosin-Nagant or Chinese copy for 7.62x54R.
Don't turn away from bubba rifles, as they're cheaper and need love too.

[WILCO]

If i have to pick ONLY one, for components availability in the US, i would choose a mauser in .308...

http://picturearchive.gunauction.com/580081546/7057138/2faca15836523e378f27b24082d0a706.jpg

http://classic.gunauction.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=7057138

[Texas by God]

Plus one for the K31 and Finn Mosin. My nephew got a Yugoslav 48 Mauser and it's as issued accurate. 2"@ 100yds with Yugoslav corrosive. I'm trying to get it from him. As posted earlier Bubba is your friend when you're looking for a shooter. Best, Thomas.
Global Warming Alert It's Nine Degrees in North Texas.

[Eddie Southgate]

Without a doubt I would vote for the M39 Finnish Nagant . Don't waste your money on the Russian . The fins took the basic Mosin action and reworked the lock work to be faster and smoother with a much better trigger . Then they gave it a better barrel and a set of sights that you can actually adjust . It is the only military that I own that will shoot poa/ poi at 100 yds . The rest shoot from 4" - 8" high at 100 and usually are on at 300 . The front sight is screw adjustable for windage . Mine like jacketed / cast bullets in the 180 - 200 gr range . I have K31 ,91 Argentine , 1909 Argentine , 96 Swede's , Vz 24 , Spanish 92 Mauser, Swiss 1911 , and several others . The Finnish rifles are easier to get to shoot small groups than any of the others ......for me .

Eddie

[6.5 mike]

One thing to watch with mil-sup 7 m/m is to bbl specs are larger then what is now common. Mine is 0.285/0.290, & takes a 0.293 boollit to fill the case neck. I did notice NOE has some moulds that will fit. Bout any off the cz/vz's are good. And any swede, lol.
A bubbaed 03/03a3 isn't hard to return to as issued .

[perotter]

Japanese Type 99 with a chrome lined bore. Sporterized ones go for $75-$150 and $150-$300 for non-sporterized.

[gwpercle]

What can you get a good deal on ? Any of the surplus military rifles are interesting, casting and reloading take care of the ammo supply problem.
Don't get some obsolete round you can't get cases for or easily form cases from some common brass.
Other than that, they're all good. The Swiss build rifles like a fine watch , my K-11 is a delight with cast . Keep shopping around untill a good deal comes along , you don't have to get fixated on one particular model .
Gary

[kmrra]

Im like you , are you sure you can get a Garand for 600, that sounds really low to me , compared to what I have seen in the gun shops , the ones I usually see go for a grand or more.

[Traffer]

Offhand I would say that you will not find a gun meeting those requirements for $300 or less. If you are willing to go a little higher, I think your two or three best options would be M1917 "american enfield" 3006. The P14 British version of the same gun but in 303. Or the very popular Lee Enfield. But I would Get the Mark 4 No 1 instead of the SMLE Mark III because of the sights. The Mark 4 as well as the M1917 and P14 have the peep sight that in my opinion is just about as accurate as a scope out to 200 or 300 yards. You may find one for $300 but not likely. Three years ago or so you could get all you wanted for that price. Now more like $350 to $700.

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Im like you , are you sure you can get a Garand for 600, that sounds really low to me , compared to what I have seen in the gun shops , the ones I usually see go for a grand or more.
you can well for $630 http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/

[Eddie Southgate]

you can well for $630 http://thecmp.org/cmp_sales/rifle_sales/m1-garand/


Last I knew you had to participate in one of their marksmanship programs to buy one from them. Has that changed?

Eddie

[tbx-4]

waco,
I must agree with those who recommend the Lee Enfield. The fastest bolt gun you can shoot and 10 round mags.
Prefer the #4 or an Ishapore 2A in .308 (7.62 NATO). Mine shoot very well but have been re-crowned. Real easy to do by hand too.

Check NorthwestFirearms.com and all your local gun and pawn shops.

[Scharfschuetze]

I'm going to go against the grain here on the Lee Enfields.

I have a small collections of Lee Enfields and have shot and loaded for them for almost 50 years now. I have even seen them in action in Central Asia, but I have to say that loading for the LE, either No1, No4, No5 or the Ishpor takes some work given their less than uniform bores from example to example. For full power reloaders: their springy actions often promote very short case life before a separation at the web of the case.

While very fun to shoot and load for, they are sometimes a bit recalcitrant. It's just the nature of the beast and if selected, then know that there can be a steeper learning curve with them. These are the ones currently in the gun safe. I shoot several of these to way out yonder in the deserts on my annual road trips and at our annual shoot-a-thon in Central Washington. Two of these are true MOA rifles (10 shot groups) when using Sierra jacketed bullets.

The No 4 (T) below is one of those MOA rifles. I often took it out to our SOTIC refresher training. I could usually shoot with the M21 and M24 rifles out to about 400 yards with it. After that, its low power scope couldn't keep up with the 3X9 and 10X scopes on the issue sniper rifles.

[7br]

Last I knew you had to participate in one of their marksmanship programs to buy one from them. Has that changed?

Eddie
Or you can be a member of an affiliated organization. As I recall, International Hunter Education Association is one. As a Kansas Hunter ed instructor, I qualified also.

[Eddie Southgate]

Or you can be a member of an affiliated organization. As I recall, International Hunter Education Association is one. As a Kansas Hunter ed instructor, I qualified also.


Good to know.

Eddie

[JMax]

Veterans also qualify, go to the odcmp web site to get requirements

[Cheshire Dave]

Hey Waco, I keep looking at the Styer 95 in 8x56. Brass may be a problem but that straight pull action is slick. Cabellas had one last time I was there. Light and well made. Don't know how they shoot. Minute of Blacktail for sure. It was around $295.

[swheeler]

Hey Waco, I keep looking at the Styer 95 in 8x56. Brass may be a problem but that straight pull action is slick. Cabellas had one last time I was there. Light and well made. Don't know how they shoot. Minute of Blacktail for sure. It was around $295.

When I first got mine I didn't have the correct brass, one pass thru die turns 7.62x54r into brass to feed the 95, neck is a little short but shot fine.

[swheeler]

Graf's shows in stock today...........http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12658/inline/1

[Tracy]

Someone already mentioned the Spanish 1916 Mauser in .308, and I will second that. J&G has them in stock for a couple hundred bucks:
http://www.jgsales.com/spanish-1916-mauser-bolt-action-short-rifle,-308-7.62x51,-good,-used.-p-93845.html

Some people have claimed over the years that these (being based on '95 actions) should have never been chambered in 7.62 NATO and at any rate should not be fired with full power .308; but that has been pretty thoroughly debunked. Also, I have first-hand knowledge that they are far stronger than commonly assumed. I've seen one after a case full of Bullseye was fired in it. The stock broke and the bolt could not be opened, but the action held.

You can get a brand new barrel for one of these in one of several different calibers for under $100, should you ever decide to do so.
The sights are not bad; in fact they are better than a lot of milsurp rifles. But you could buy a Williams rear peep sight and pay a gunsmith to install it if you don't feel up to the task, and still come in right at your stated price.

[mac1911]

I think 1st you need to decide what is acceptable accuracy for you.
Most mosin 91/30s are just not going to deliver especially with the surplus ammo.
Reloading gets tough as most .312" bullets are expensive when you can buy tula or wolf for 30 cents more.
Enfield... well same thing plus any brass other than HXP and PPU has rims that are thinner and add to the headspace/chamber problem.
1903 can be accurate but the sights sort of suck
1903a3 better sights
Mausers many good ones many bad ones
I like mine but the sights are hard on my eyes.
M1 hit or miss and if you get one if it's shoot in 6moa or better your ahead.
The Swiss K31 and surplus ammo has been the only rifle I have bought, cleaned, loaded and shot that put the rounds in the 10 ring at 200 yards right from the get go. This is why I gave it the Knod. So far the other club members are getting simular results.

[Mark74a1]

For that price and a good shooter, grab a mosin. I picked one for $100 from gander mountain and it is so much fun! The ammo is about $6 for 20, military surplus. Spend a few bucks more and get a recoil pad and brass ammo, you will not be disappointed.
if you want an old style rifle, get a nice lever action in 45-70 or .357. Both are great to shoot, ammo plentiful, easy to get reloading supplies for.

[waco]

Well my dishwasher just died.Guess what money that was set aside for "fun" stuff was just nominated for household appliances?
Looks like the rifle will have to wait......

[jimb16]

Welcome to my world!

[mac1911]

For that price and a good shooter, grab a mosin. I picked one for $100 from gander mountain and it is so much fun! The ammo is about $6 for 20, military surplus. Spend a few bucks more and get a recoil pad and brass ammo, you will not be disappointed.
if you want an old style rifle, get a nice lever action in 45-70 or .357. Both are great to shoot, ammo plentiful, easy to get reloading supplies for.

Right now it's hard to find a 100$ mosin that will be a good shooter. Plus surplus ammo has dried up to the point it's not "cheap"
Last I seen a spam can it was 190$/440 rounds
You can buy new tula for that.
.312" bullets are expensive BUT they do take to casting well.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t196/jrm7800/20170105_123812_zps28w4qfwo.jpg (http://s160.photobucket.com/user/jrm7800/media/20170105_123812_zps28w4qfwo.jpg.html)
This is a huge improvement over the minute of berm this rifle shoots with FMJ.
A little on this rifle...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?322827-cheap-14-bore-scope-and-my-1927-mosin&p=3896679#post3896679