410 Case Forming from 303 Brit for round ball or slug use

[303Guy]

So I finally picked up this little 410 break action that I bought about 18 months ago.

Now to make cases.

Well, the first thing I found is that 303 Brit cases are too small and way too short - this is a 3" chambered gun. Even so, I can still open the case body enough to fit better and cutting an angle on the forward side of the rim to fit the chamber. But will this produce satisfactory result? It's a long jump from case mouth to the lead. I'm hoping the right cup or wadding will hold the ball or slug central.

I should add that making cases from brass stock is do-able for me if I need to. So is field loading of cases (I'm not going to make

Any thoughts and ideas would be most welcome. Or safety warnings!

[Von Gruff]

What about 405 Win brass??

[Taylor]

303's work fine in my H&R break barrel.

[303Guy]

Thanks both.

Are 405 cases available to us then? Well of course I could check for myself. Thanks for that tip.

Taylor, are you shooting slug or ball from your 303 cases? How are you loading them? Even using this thing for shot should be a lot of fun.

[Reg]

Try 444 Marlin cases if you can get them. They seem to work better than the 303's. They too will be a bit short but just adjust your wad column accordingly.

[303Guy]

Thanks, Reg.

[Taylor]

I'm using shot(7.5). I've been researching slug loads.But it'll be after Christmas before I can get serious.

My plan is to get some 9.3x74r so I'll have a longer shell and play with that too.

Give me a little time and I'll look/dig up my load data and share that with you.Tomorrow most likely.

[SSGOldfart]

303 works great in my H/R you can fire form those cases with about 5 grs of Herco and a paper wad I just used CCI primers some times it took two shots to straighten out the shoulder, 444 marlin base works as well.

[303Guy]

Any ideas on the round ball, wad or wadding, wadded slug and so on?

I have thought of a shuttle cock style slug (or 410 'pellet'). That would a little tricky but I do have an idea.

[leeggen]

http://www.endtimesreport.com/survival_reloading.html

Try this sight, some good info.
CD

[Taylor]

That is a good site,there is another...Ed Harris..I think.

My thoughts on a slug was to use a .40 cal lead(of course) bullet.

There was a member from Murray,Ky. who did some .410 loading,but I don't remember who it was.

[Outpost75]

If you can get 9.3x74R cases, these will fire-form to 3" .410s.

182994

[LAGS]

I made a set of tapered mandrals on my Poor Man's Lathe and drilled a hole in a piece of 1" steel for a Wack a Mole kind of sizing die.
I pull apart surplus .303 then Size the cases and use the Berdan cases in my 410.
I have loaded them with everything from Shot to round balls , and even 9mm cases filled with lead.
I shoot the salvaged bullets in Boxer primed cases or in my 7.62x54s

[725]

+1 for 444 Marlin

[LAGS]

Just so you dont think I am FOS and Yanking your chain

[303Guy]

I never doubted you for a moment. :drinks:

I have made my prototype case but I need to make a larger expander - I also have a cheapo benchtop lathe. It can do quite well but is slow so cannot do shiny smooth mild steel machining but it turns grade 8.8 bolts just fine, which is what I use for mold die and expander making.

Anyway, I'm going to look for 405 Winchester brass, failing which, 444 Marlin. I wouldn't mind getting 9.3x74R cases. Those would be perfect. The chamber length is 76mm to take the crimp so that would be the ideal case length.

40cal round balls should work with the right cup or wadding, I should think.

[Taylor]

OK--- this is what I do...

black powder:
30 grains pyrodex--volume
over powder card--cut from card board
1/8 lubed felt - cut from cowboy hat from yard sale--TC bore butter
1/2 oz shot
overshot card..same a above...seal w/elmers glue

cards and wads are 7/16

Alliant 410;
12 grains
over powder card
1/2" of cork filler - cut from cork board-walmart
1/2 oz shot
overshot card--seal w/elmers glue

I will ad pics later on of the kit I made

[LAGS]

For cheap Slugs, the empty 9mm cases filled about halfway with lead worked great.
Plus being metal Jacketed, it would be good for your "Dangerous Game Rabbits" that you have in N Z
I hear they run in Gangs and raise havoc for the farmers.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Thanks both.

Are 405 cases available to us then? Well of course I could check for myself. Thanks for that tip.

Taylor, are you shooting slug or ball from your 303 cases? How are you loading them? Even using this thing for shot should be a lot of fun.

They may well be available to get them into New Zealand, which I have always considered one of the most sensible countries in Australasia. But I don't think you can get them out of the US through regular channels. Not long ago I got 24ga Magtech cases from Buffalo Arms, but even now their website says "Due to federal regulations we cannot ship rifle and pistol brass outside of the U.S. Unless we ship them through an exporter. Shotgun brass is excluded from these regulations. If your order has rifle or pistol brass on it we will automatically remove these from the order and ship the balance with out contacting you."

As it happens I wanted it for a 24ga shotgun, but I could have had it to load for a .577 Snider. Imagine the hammering armed crime is taking from this! They do list "low stock" of .410 cases, though only 2½in., at $25.98 for ten.

Could I tentatively suggest, without giving offence, plastic cases? If it is a black powder gun, you have a splendid excuse for buying a cheap single .410 to fire smokeless cartridges in. Turned brass cases may not last well enough to justify the cost and trouble, even if you have the facilities. But it wouldn't take too much in the way of equipment to extend a .303 case, trimmed to an inch or so, with 15/32 K&S tubing, which is common (and unbanned) on eBay. For a shotgun used at shotgun pressures, I think you would be all right with the big rifle no-no of cautious soft-soldering at the rear of the case.

[W.R.Buchanan]

BPI has some neato "125 gr Thug Slugs" for the .410 and they have the wad attached. I'd use .444 marlin cases, but that's because I already have some.

Federal makes some 2 1/2" .410 slug ammo that has 125 gr slugs running at 1775 fps!, and they are pretty cheap. This ammo is way above a .357 magnum pistol and would turn your little shotgun into a reasonable deer gun for smaller deer. 50 yards is about it for this round.

To keep it simple I'd just buy a box or so of Winchester 3" shot shells with #6 shot in them and reload those with the little Thug Slugs.

Then you'd get your complete chamber fill out and be able to reload them easier. You should be able to get 5+ loads out of those hulls as they are pretty well made. I have shot these in my M6 Scout and they are pretty vicious little poppers. It also makes that gun quite a bit more useful.

Randy

[Blackwater]

Don't know if they're available in your area, but I believe it's Mag Tec that's making brass cases for shotgun shells now. I have some for 32 ga., which is essentially just a .50 cal. They seem to be worth the cost, at about $1 ea. They're set up for priming with LP primers, of whatever make you have. They ought to do really well for you if you can find some - always a question these days, it seems.

And FWIW, when my son was very young, I got a break action .410 and took some 3" factory loads, opened them up, and put 4 .380" lead balls for cap n' ball pistols, and filled the rest up with corn meal. The primers indicated some extra pressure, but nothing I was worried about with all the metal around the breech and barrel. It was built on a 12 ga. frame. Those loads printed all 4 pellets in a space I could cover with my hand at 40 yds., which really made my eyebrows hit my hairline. I took him and that little gun with me (cut bbl. to 19" so it's balance and swing better for him then, and cut stock to fit also) deer hunting on some deer drives I went on just for him, and he was surprisingly good with that little gun. Threw some clays for him at close range with bird shot, and he hit most of them. The young will really listen if you approach them right! The little .410 lends itself to specialized ammo, I think, more than most guages do. I have no doubt that 4-ball load would have killed the biggest deer in my state! And his accuracy with it was surprising, too!

[Outpost75]

My duty .410 traveler is a pre-WW2 H&R .44/.410/11mm, originally a 2-1/2" chamber in which I split the muzzle shooting roundballs out of it as a kid. Cut it off behind the split choke at 20", leaving a cylinder bore at .425" diameter, and rechambered for 3" shells. Loves the S-B 5-pellet 00 buck, or four .390 cast balls with 15.4 grs. of #2400 in expanded up 9.3x74R brass.

[LAGS]

To answer your question about the length of the .303 cases in a 3" chamber.
I had No issues with round ball, buck shot or shot loads.
My loads used either a Plastic or a home made Paper shot cup.
I cant find my loading data, and I think I gave it away with the .410 /22 OU when I sold it.
The shorter cases didnt always want to feed in a .410 pump action that I had.
But they fired great
And Yes, You may have to thin down the rim on the .303 to get your action to close.
But one single shot H&R I had worked fine without having to thin the .303 rim.

[303Guy]

Thank you all for your input.

Ok so it seems my first step is to go with the expanded 303 cases and see what happens. I don't have a source of balls yet nor the slugs. I have the feeling that the wadded slug might be the better option but taking into consideration that this gun is choked, any slug I choose would need to be of soft lead and ribbed whereas a round ball only needs to be supported in a cup. The cup could be tricky though, I should think.

I do want to keep the barrel at full length if I can although I am tempted to remove the choke. What I like about the long barrel is the balance and lower muzzle blast (I think it's lower with more expansion volume and further away from the ears).

The rim thickness is actually about the same - its the shape of the rim that differs so all that is required is giving the breach side of the rim an angle. A file and holding the case in the lathe chuck at low speed was all it took.

[LAGS]

I a pinch, you can cast slugs in a hole drilled into a piece of wood.
And if you get the size right, those little slugs of lead can be pounded into a semi round ball, them placed in a rotary tumbled and let tumble till they are round.
You aint talking about trying to get Olympic Accuracy or perfection.
Play with what you can do , while waiting to find what you need.
The balls dont have to be perfect, as you are using a wad or shot cup to get the size right.
Roll paper around a dowel the size you need and glue it like a tube.
Then glue a plug in the end to form a shot cup.
The sides can then be split if you use them for shot so they open up.

[HABCAN]

Why not just buy some brass .410 SHOTSHELL cases from Magtech?? Expensive, but............?? (I got some, for 'speriments.)

[LAGS]

The OP is in New Zealand.
Sometimes they can not get the material that we can or they are cost prohibitive or even restricted.
But there are ways to Make Due till the proper materials can be found.
I started off playing with the reformed .303 cases because the .410 ammo was so expensive for Specialty Rounds that I wanted to shoot , or have a back up plan if ammo ever became more restrictive over here.

[Reverend Al]

I've gone both routes and fire-formed .303 British cases into straight cases, but they are to use in my Lee Enfield .410 Musket which used in-formed (straight) .303 basic cases and the British military loaded them with a .410 round ball in rifles that had been bored to .410 smooth bore single shots. (They were used for native troops and prison guards in India.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzWrMhDYL3M

I also managed to source a bunch of once fired Norma 9.3x74R cases at a reasonable price and have successfully fire-formed them into straight 3" brass cases for my Marlin Ballard No. 5 Pacific in .40-90 Ballard straight and I also formed some for my .410 O&U shotgun. Hornady is listing 9.3x74R brass for sale, but it is pricey ...

[303Guy]

I did a quick Google search - Magtec cases are indeed available here. Nz$85 including shipping. This is for 25 cases and they are 2 1/2". I'll stay with modifying 303 cases until longer brass can be found.

[LAGS]

Are you going to modify Berdan, or Boxer primed cases ?
You can Modify the Primer pockets on the Brass Berdan Surplus ammo to take Large Rifle or Large pistol Primers.
Those cases may be found in your area already fired, and for Free.
Or , in your part of the world, can you get the Berdan Primers.

[Reg]

The modified 303 cases will work and give a good service life. Have made up a bunch. I think the brass itself in the 303 is thicker and tougher than the 410 brass shells you can buy.
Only problem I have noticed is that the rim is a bit smaller in dia and also the head dimension too is smaller but will fire form out leaving a small but not too serious bulge in the head area just above the rim. The bulging is never equal all around but rather tends to settle to one side. The bulging itself due to the pressures you are working with are not anything to worry about but
because of that slight bulging effect you will note the rim will tend to hold itself off a bit to one side. This being offset a bit and a bit smaller to begin with will sometimes create a bit of a extraction problem in that the extractor might over ride the rim. If you have a very tight chamber, it might not be a problem, if you have chambers that are on the loose side-- it can be a problem. If the bulge pushes the rim to the extractor, you will not have a problem, if it pushed the rim away from the extractor, you could. Etc.
As a thought. I have heard this mentioned but have never tried it myself. Take it for what it is worth.
When fire forming cases that you know will bulge out a bit, wrap a layer or two of scotch tape around the head before firing, Will hold everything central and prevent off center bulging.
Like I said, have never tried it myself but will with the next batch of cases I blow out of the 303.

[303Guy]

I plan on using only boxer cases. I have one modified berdan PMP case that does work. I have enough odd cases for the gun for now. If I do come across a supply of berdan cases then I will modify them.

Reg, that is a valid consideration. I was thinking of expanding the cases far enough down the body to centralize the case but the tape trick sounds much simpler. With the expander one still has to somehow centralize the case. Thanks for that tip.

[bstone5]

The 444 Marlin brass is for me the best choice. A over powder wad is required beneath the plastic shot wad. Shot these a lot in a H&R single shot and a S&W Governor revolver. My 9 year old grandson shots the break open shot gun a lot. Have used the same 50 pieces of brass for several years with lots of reloads. Star Line is making the 444 Marlin brass may need to get some of this brass.

[JeffinNZ]

I did a quick Google search - Magtec cases are indeed available here. Nz$85 including shipping. This is for 25 cases and they are 2 1/2". I'll stay with modifying 303 cases until longer brass can be found.

Robbie Tiffen at Gunworks has them Pete.

Why not just use plastic .410 hulls?

[LAGS]

The taping trick does work for Fire Forming the cases.
All my cases were done with hand Mandrals to expand them.
Then I pounded them into a homemade sizing die made out of a 1" thick Bar of steel with a bole drilled in it
Heating the Unprimed .303 cases worked to help them stretch out the necks easier.
My primer converted cases worked really good.
Good luck on your reloading.
Once you build up a stock of the converted .303 cases for your .410, then it will lessen the firing of the hard to find .410 factory or reloaded plastic cases.
Besides, you will have built the skills to provide yourself with needed ammo when things are too expensive or impossible to find.
Home made Cases, Home Made wads ,shot cups and even Foster style swedged slugs.
What could be better.
And you can do it with simple hand tools and a little knowledge, and help from your friends.
Why Buy, When you can Build

[RoyEllis]

I plan on using only boxer cases. I have on modified berdan PMP case that does work. I have enough odd cases for the gun for now. If I do come across a supply of berdan cases then I will modify them.

Reg, that is a valid consideration. I was thinking of expanding the cases far enough down the body to centralize the case but the tape trick sounds much simpler. With the expander one still has to somehow centralize the case. Thanks for that tip.

Hey 303guy, if you can get 209 primers easily there, think about modding berdan cases for those. I have about 25 or 30 I converted to 209's, over the past 4 yrs the grandsons have shot them a BUNCH....probably going on close to 100 reloads per case now. Not enough pressure to wear on them, they seem to keep going & going like 38 spec target brass does. All you gotta do is drill for the body then a countersink for the primer rim so it seats flush. BTW, 30/40 krag brass works too, comes out almost 3" but that brass is kinda hard to come by now.

[Tackleberry41]

9.3x74r are by far the best 410 shells. I have done 303, they get that funky backwards bottle neck due to the thickness at the base. 444 doesnt do much better.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

9.3x74r are by far the best 410 shells. I have done 303, they get that funky backwards bottle neck due to the thickness at the base. 444 doesnt do much better.

I'm quite sure you are right about 9.3x74R, especially for a 3in. chamber. They won't be cheap, and probably still leave the OP with the problem of getting them from overseas. From Europe, where they are certainly made, might now be easier than the US.

[303Guy]

I'm quite sure you are right about 9.3x74R, especially for a 3in. chamber. They won't be cheap, and probably still leave the OP with the problem of getting them from overseas. From Europe, where they are certainly made, might now be easier than the US.
I happen to have a nephew who lives in Germany ......
He's here visiting right now. I'll ask him to send me some if he can get. Maybe even some Brenecke slugs.

Thanks for the shotshell primer conversion tip, Roy. I have already bought the 209 primers to reload my plastic hulls.

Jeff, those plastic hulls are always an option but I would need to buy more to make it a proposition. Or find some spent ones. I would think that the larger case would lower pressure somewhat, depending on how they are loaded? Longer plastic case life maybe?

[kenyerian]

http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html Interesting article on 410 reloading using different brass.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Ballistic Products Inc. has Magtech Hulls, wads of every description, round balls and slugs. I don't know if they ship to NZ but a look at their website will answer that question,,, and it will also give you a bunch of ideas on possible projectiles and types of wads you can make yourself.

There's also a lot of threads in the "Casting for Shotguns" section on this issue and tons of information that will be helpful.

Do you guys have Walmart in NZ? They generally sell ammo, and would be a good source for .410 loaded ammo you could make into reloaded ammo.

When I got my Browning Sporting Clays edition O/U a few years ago the first thing I did was go to Walmart and buy a couple of boxes of shells. They were $12.50 for 25 or .50 cents a shot. I then went on Trapshooters.com and bought 1000 O/F Winchester Hulls for $100 or .10 each. (good deal as they go for as much as .20 cents lots of times.

I then bought a Pacific DL266 loader in .410 and had to pay $250 for it. But now I can load .410's for about .10 ea. which allows me to shoot that gun a lot more than if I had to buy new ammo for it. I have loaded about 600 of those first 1000 and the ones I've shot are now twice fired and no worse than when I started with them. I see them easily going 5-6 loadings before they give up and that's 5-6000 rounds which will take me some time to burn up.

Other cases come and go as well and some nice 3" Winchester Hulls have landed in my possession and will be loaded with #6 or #8 shot for Dove season, if I ever get invited to shoot doves here again. I could get my limit with my pellet gun in my Front Yard but can't seem to find a place to shoot them with my shotgun, as all the Ranchers around here are very protective and only let their friends in.

I find the .410 to be one of the most interesting Shotguns to shoot and if you get your limit with a .410 with less than a box of shells you've actually accomplished something noteworthy.

Looking forward to seeing some of your blown out .303 cases as I have plenty of them too.

Randy

[victorfox]

Do you guys have Walmart in NZ? They generally sell ammo, and would be a good source for .410 loaded ammo you could make into reloaded ammo.


Randy, given the gun control laws in NZ/OZ I doubt very much WalMart sells the good stuff there. We also have them here in Brazil and the most we can buy is airguns and pellets. Never a firearm or ammo... Sadly...

I guess 303guy is up to his ears in .303 cases... LOL I myself prefer loading brass shells for my guns, specially the .410, but then I use a Smoothbore Judge, and cut some to .45Colt length to shoot round balls.

Going off topic, do you already have the Feb/17 Handloader mag? It has 2 pages on your hand press. Congrats!

[303Guy]

I've only made one reloadable case so far and haven't had a chance to actually load it and fire it (test tube needs to be pulled out from the back after my move).

You know, I actually have a round ball mold somewhere. It's probably a collectible and would in any case be too big but maybe I could copy it.

I have been thinking of building a round ball machine. One rotating disc over one with an orbital motion. The idea is to make the balls perfectly round after casting. I haven't thought about the mechanism yet but designs should be out there.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have never really been a fan of the 3in. .410, and especially the slug load. A quick run through NZ wildlife doesn't look like showing up anything that is neither too big nor too small, and can make do with the accuracy. Another run through the wildlife suggests a very low rate of violent home invasions too.

But if you do want to use ball, the 9.3x74R is the counsel of perfection, and 3in. plastic, without that half-inch jump from case to forcing cone, is probably better than 2½in. brass. A modest advantage of the smoothbore, when it comes to accuracy, is that it isn't as dependent as a rifle on precisely central location of the bullet mass.

Here is the SAAMI specification for the .410 chamber. The rim is bevelled at 55 degrees from the bore axis. If you were doing it the other way around, chambering a barrel, you could modify a 110 degree countersink

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Shotshell/410%20Bore%203.pdf

I don't know if a device for rolling lead balls would work. I think it would skid around without rotating, keeping the same little flats in contact. Besides, remember the Law of Conservation of Matter, which says, more or less, that everything has to be somewhere. You can't make a metal materially smaller without removing some of it. A long time ago I made dies for chomping .375in. balls out of a cast slab of lead with a ten-ton hydraulic press. A reloading press won't do it, but a bullet swaging one should.

I made two dies from 1in. round steel, turned down to about a 1/20in. rim around the cavity, which I cut with a ⅜in. ball nosed end mill or slot drill. 10mm. is easily available, and carbide ball burrs sometimes cut a bit oversize. There should be a hole or grooved edge in one or both cavities to allow excess lead to escape, and reverse tapered so that your extruded lead wire doesn't get stuck. You can also weld them to the shortened jaws of a large pair of bolt cutters, or make a tubular guide to squash the dies together in a powerful engineer's vice. In the latter case, though, you will have to insert a piece of lead close to the final weight rather than cut from the slab.

I'm close to my allowance of posted pictures, so this diagram refers to the same technique with a different kind of bullet. You could even make a Forster-type slug that way, rather like the smoothbore airgun slugs which used to exist before kids all had rifled bores and long trousers. That would let you out of producing .410 hemispheres. But the .410 has high pressure by shotgun standards, and would probably benefit from a more conical base cavity than the Lyman moulds. I don't recommend the Lyman mould for 12ga and 20ga, incidentally, unless you are willing and able to swage the raised ribs for which they were originally designed. They cast considerably undersize.

[303Guy]

The two discs have a different motion. One simply rotates while the other has a wobbly orbital motion. This forces the ball to randomly roll between them. It will not not size the ball, just round it. It's not my idea, I got it from a process used in the past (may still used?)

Thanks for the ideas and input. Maybe I can make a 'standard' size ball with a swaging die (I have a trolley jack to use as a ram) then rounding in the rounding machine. That way multiple balls can be rounded simultaneously. I'm assuming the actual diameter won't be too important in a cup (been wrong about things before though).

I do have that SAAMI diagram. I shaped the rim with the chamfer in the lathe using a file. I'll make up something to hold the cases properly when I make a batch of them.

[LAGS]

Like mentioned before in the thread, You can not change the diameter without removing metal.
So if you have a lead ball the diameter you want, then cut a cut a hunk of lead the same weight, then when pounded into a ball shape then Tumbled in a rotary Tumbler or Rock Tumbler, or roller plate, I will come out the same size.
A tumbler seems like a quicker method of rounding the lead balls than trying to design a Roller Plate system device.
IE
if the ball diameter you want weighs 150 gr.
Cast a slug in a bullet mold that you have that casts any shape 150 gr slug.
Put it on a steel plate, and tap it with a hammer to get it to a more round shape, then tumble the slugs.
You would have to start out the same way if you are going to use a roller plate set up, Unless you already have a Round Ball Mold of the right Diameter.
Then, Why would you need to roll them to make them Prefect, except for to round off the Sprue nub.
A tumbler will do that too.
I tumble all the balls I cast for and shoot out of my muzzle loaders.

[GONRA]

RoyEllis - GONRA sez: "209 Battery Cup Shotshell Primers"
in drilled out rifle cases are great for LOW PRESSURE loads ONLY!
Wear Yer Safety Glasses (goggles are better here!) and BE CAREFUL!

(Yeah, everybody already nos this, but might be Fresh Info for SOME NEWBE!)

Believe it or not, a few years ago, someone on the FCSA website
was promoting drilling out .50 BMG cases for battery cup shotshell primers
to save $$$ by NOT buying CCI .50 BMG primers!

[BigEyeBob]

Randy, given the gun control laws in NZ/OZ I doubt very much WalMart sells the good stuff there. We also have them here in Brazil and the most we can buy is airguns and pellets. Never a firearm or ammo... Sadly...

I guess 303guy is up to his ears in .303 cases... LOL I myself prefer loading brass shells for my guns, specially the .410, but then I use a Smoothbore Judge, and cut some to .45Colt length to shoot round balls.

Going off topic, do you already have the Feb/17 Handloader mag? It has 2 pages on your hand press. Congrats!


No Walmarts in Australia,but years ago KMart used to sell rifles and ammunition.