Advice on double barrel shotgun

[boise outlaw]

I'm interested in getting a muzzleloading shotgun, I know that both cva and pedersoli made double barrels but am wondering if there are any other kit guns out there I should be aware of? I'd be especially interested in a flintlock kit, and could even assemble something from scratch if I could be pointed in the right direction.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For scratch building www.trackofthewolf.com (http://www.trackofthewolf.com) are the best source for parts, and their print catalogue is better than the website, as you can browse better for urgent needs you don't quite know you have yet, and the pictures are full size. You can buy left and right paired locks, for example.

What they and perhaps nobody else has, however, are percussion breechplugs for double guns. You could silver solder or weld two single-barrel ones together but you can't then screw two barrels onto the assembly - or remove them, ever again, if you do the silver soldering after the plugs are screwed home. The solution is to bore though one or both to have a piece of plain threaded rod acting as the plug.

[waksupi]

Build it yourself is about your only choice. Do NOT get one of the India made pipe bombs that are sold by a company back east.

[northmn]

I have seen flintlock muzzle loaders made but the proper way is to get rebated breech plugs. Otherwise they are too bulky. I have seen lots of folks get the double barrel flintlock itch but most settle down to the single barrels. I made a single barrel from a modern barrel but cut off the chamber so as to eliminate the differences in diameter from the chamber to the barrel as a muzzle loader should be barrel diameter down to the breech plug. I picked up the barrel at a gun show and it was a 32 inch. I had to buy the single shot action also as it was a Junker.
Often double ML's were made in smaller gauges to avoid the width so that the hammers were more accessible with less thumb reach. 14 gauges were not uncommon and a 16 would work well. Another reason they used rebated breech plugs. Pedersoli does make a single shot fowler that might tweak your interest and Track does offer fowler kits.
Flintlock doubles were very expensive and mostly built for the upper class. The fowlers were the meat and potatoes guns. often used with round ball for larger game. The Native Americans traded for the NW trade gun is 24 gauge in my neck of the woods for many years and used them on about everything up to and including moose. I used to chat with an individual that used his fowler on turkey and deer. Another individual has shown his brace of pheasant using one on a shotgun site.
I was going to show pictures but photobucket lately has been quite unwieldy.

DEP

[boise outlaw]

I had not considered weight but that is a good point, I spend alot of time during elk season packing around my tc renegade or lyman great plains so i figured it would be about the same. Could you elaborate a little more on what is necessary to plug the breech? It might be my best option to locate a 12 ga SxS barrel and then build the rest myself.

[irishtoo]

look at dixie gun works. search...kits

[sharps4590]

boise, there is some original ML shotguns out there for decent prices. I've had one or two over the years that were in pretty good condition and I used them. You can also spend a kings ransom on some of them but they're more "fer lookin' at" than for using.

[boise outlaw]

boise, there is some original ML shotguns out there for decent prices. I've had one or two over the years that were in pretty good condition and I used them. You can also spend a kings ransom on some of them but they're more "fer lookin' at" than for using.

I am going to keep an eye out for one, my main concern is shooting steel out of it for waterfowl. Most pre 1950 guns cant run steel, Would be alot to ask out of a pre 1898 muzzleloader.

[StolzerandSons]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Xo0Z34XU68
Skip ahead to 2:15 to see how one breech plug inersects the other or you can watch the whole series and see how I build a double rifle, it is mostly the same as building a shotgun.
All 22 parts of the series can be found on my youtube channel here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQX9MsRl-1XvwQ8uDDLwml6e7mNvDJw4L

[northmn]

Due to the nature of the flintlock the breech plug was rebated a bit to decrease bulk. Percussions were made with the nipple sticking out the back, where a flintlock has the touch hole on the side. By the time you factor in the lock bolster they become about 1/2" or better thicker. The breech plugs were made indented such that the lock could be mounted more compactly. These were the better flintlocks. Darned if I can remember the term but they had a smaller hole in the plug. Many were self priming.

DEP

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The main trouble with steel shot in old guns is the choke, which a muzzle-loader doesn't normally have - although there is no reason why it shouldn't, if you plan to use it only with lead birdshot.

A pair of breechloader barrels can be used, and will get you at least fairly close to the right degree of convergence to make them shoot together. If you thread a 12ga chamber to ⅞-14 UNF, and then amputate all but the forward 3/4 inch or so. With most guns you would need to make the front end of those threads come to a squarer shoulder than the usual breechloader forcing cone, for it is here that the seal should be made, rather than allowing powder gases to leak back into the threads.

Modern practice, though not on most originals, was for the breechplug and its nipple seat to be a separate unit, integral with the breechplug and showing a join (unless you can make it invisible) forward of the nipple. A flintlock breechplug needn't extend to the rear of the barrel, although in this case you should seal the threads, either with high temperature epoxy or a tube of stainless steel or, if you feel ambitious, gold or platinum.

A flintlock will benefit from improved ignition with Nock's patent chambered breech, but a percussion much less so. You are very unlikely to save money over a ready-made Italian double, and putting a cash value on your time is better not even thought of. But I think you can have a gun you will like better.

[waksupi]

Just a thought, one of my friends converted two Navy Arms double barrels to flint for a movie. It may have been The Alamo. Worked out okay, but he is a very experienced builder.

[northmn]

Thank you for the reminder. Couldn't remember the name of the Nocks breech. Knew the principle but am getting a bit drifty in my old age. I built the one with the modern barrel with a sort of Nock's breech in the manner Ballistics recommended. A flintlock has to have a flat to fit up against the barrel or else the priming will sift out. So muskets like the old Brown Bess had the flat. The best flintlock doubles were made in England. The Manton's come to mind. Unlike in America, they had a team of makers working on the guns. While I am working on a English Game rifle I do not pretend to be able to match a Manton, where teams built the firearms. Some claims were that 28 hands worked on their firearms.
I saw a French flintlock double that was not built with the rebated breeches like Manton used and it was bulky. The Manton is much less gaudy but more streamlined. Remember, for a double with hammers to offer much of an advantage you have to be able to reach the hammers. With a pointer one can cock both or over decoys. When I hunted grouse I found the single barrel to be adequate. One reason I keep mention the English design. You would want a smaller bore to be more practical. Ballistics mention of breeching. Percussions used a "patent" breech and the nipples were positioned different than on rifles.
I also second his recommendation over saving money. Building a ML out of parts is very expensive. The two locks you would need probably are now in the $300 range for both. As a builder I know that it takes a couple under your belt to get what you like.

DP

[northmn]

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii425/Davidpeck16/GrouseFowler/grouseFowler002.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/Davidpeck16/media/GrouseFowler/grouseFowler002.jpg.html)
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii425/Davidpeck16/GrouseFowler/002.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/Davidpeck16/media/GrouseFowler/002.jpg.html)
The top one is the one I built for kicks out of parts laying around. The stock us birch from a tree I cut in the back 40 and split out of the stump. Got its mate to use yet. Barrel cost $5.00 at a gun show. Made the breech plug out of a 7/8bolt. Should have done more homework as the butt stock is not shaped like it should be.
Bottom one is a "smooth rifle" I may finish it this winter now that I am retired.

DEP

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/10GFlintlockShotgun008.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/10GFlintlockShotgun008.jpg.html)
This is a Double 10 Gauge flintlock Shotgun I built during the 1980s.The Barrels where given to me by a friend,the Lock Castings where From E J Blackley.The Stock is a Branch from a Pear Tree.The Top Tang is a piece of Angle Iron Cut and Filed.The Furniture is from Mild Steel Sheet.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/10GFlintlockShotgun003.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/10GFlintlockShotgun003.jpg.html)
Another View.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/10GFlintlockShotgun007.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/10GFlintlockShotgun007.jpg.html)
Another View.I made and fitted Sleeves into the Breaches.I squared off the Chambers forcing cones and threaded the Breaches to take the Plugs.I made the Springs and internals for the Locks.

[northmn]

Didn't do it overnight did you. Nice looking shotgun. Locks look like ideal ones for shotgun, the front bolster stops at the frizzen screw. Excellent work. English rain proof locks fit the gun beautifully. Getting the proper fittings is difficult and takes some looking. You must be somewhat accomplished on building.

DP

[Col4570]

Yes the Locks are made up from Castings produced by E J Blackley.I bought Lock Plates,Cocks and Frizzens.I made the Springs,Tumblers,Bridles and Sears.It took me a Winter to complete the gun.I case Hardened all the Parts using Casenit.The breach Plugs I made from Silver Steel.I made and fitted coned Stainless Steel Touch Hole inserts.I find that I have to walk away from these projects every now and then otherwise obsession takes over.Check out the M L A G B site Page 3 on the Shotgun section 16 Gauge Flintlock.That is a Single Flinter I built with step by step Photos.I have included a major blip during its construction.I am under a Different name on that site.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii425/Davidpeck16/GrouseFowler/grouseFowler002.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/Davidpeck16/media/GrouseFowler/grouseFowler002.jpg.html)
http://i550.photobucket.com/albums/ii425/Davidpeck16/GrouseFowler/002.jpg (http://s550.photobucket.com/user/Davidpeck16/media/GrouseFowler/002.jpg.html)
The top one is the one I built for kicks out of parts laying around. The stock us birch from a tree I cut in the back 40 and split out of the stump. Got its mate to use yet. Barrel cost $5.00 at a gun show. Made the breech plug out of a 7/8bolt. Should have done more homework as the butt stock is not shaped like it should be.
Bottom one is a "smooth rifle" I may finish it this winter now that I am retired.

DEP

All right, so you are one of the people who had to build a couple before they got where they wanted. Some say that like it is a bad thing.

[northmn]

Took a while and a bit of research to get what I liked and I was self taught. Took a while to learn from mistakes and a bit of money. Sold a few on the way to get where I liked. The smooth rifle kind of follows the lines of a JP Beck. I wanted the other one to be an English pattern but my research was short. Lines should be straight with the bore and a wider butt plate.
My downfall is that I am artistically challenged and the carving and engraving that goes into early American muzzle loaders is not as good as it should be. I can scratch in some checkering and now feel that I can make it look better than a lot of factory jobs. I also do not have a complete enough shop to do a lot of the work needed and use hand tools. I think most builders dream of the double flintlock. I have. But I got kind of burned out and game is getting scarce enough such that after walking most of the day to get one shot, I want it to be a good one. I appreciate the work of others, like Col4570's double. Saw examples of Jerry White's work. His engraving looks like photographs and he uses precious metals for inlays. He also can modify existing locks, furniture and barrels to get what he wants. His creations are so expensive that he does not shoot or keep any he makes and hunts with a store bought Lyman Great Plains rifle.


DEP

[Ballistics in Scotland]

This is a Double 10 Gauge flintlock Shotgun I built during the 1980s.The Barrels where given to me by a friend,the Lock Castings where From E J Blackley.The Stock is a Branch from a Pear Tree.The Top Tang is a piece of Angle Iron Cut and Filed.The Furniture is from Mild Steel Sheet.

That is marvellous work. Such projects always make me think of Rudyard Kipling's Tomlinson, who can't get into either Heaven or Hell because he has always dealt in ideas and concepts, but has never actually done anything worthy of either. The person who has done work like this will be able to take his choice according to the company he finds most interesting.

http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_tomlinson.htm

Your gun is wide across the breeches, but there is no way out of that with a 10ga double. With some regret, I think you were right to go for flat-topped chequering, which is just as hard to do accurately as full relief diamonds. It is by far the most authentic for the flintlock era, and full diamonds in an original gun would look sadly worn by now.

I'm grateful to you for the Blackley name, and have found their website. I have previously dealt with Peter Dyson, who offer a very similar range of lost wax castings, each supplying some the other doesn't. I was once able to supply an American correspondent with the source of a hammer casting for, of all things, his Callisher and Terry capping breech-loader. But Blackleys do castings to the customer's design, anything from drawings (probably very expensive) to wax models )(probably just a little expensive). The Dyson site has the curious feature of access to each item in the castings category being from a link at the top of the previous one, which looks like an incorrect title.

https://www.blackleyandson.com/index.html

https://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/_British_Military_Hammers.html

Back on the possibility of using a pair of breech-loader barrels, all but early ones are thicker at the breech than you need for a black powder muzzle-loader. This would permit filing or milling flats where they fit together, for a stronger and more precisely positioned silver solder joint.

Here is Greener's drawing of Nock's patent breech, with notes of mine in red. Personally I doubt if the tiny chamber beside the vent was of much use, and it was surely difficult to clean. I think the reduced diameter chamber in the plug was what made the difference, as it certainly did in mortars. This could be achieved with the rear of the plug level with the rear of the barrel, though I think the barrel threads ought to be protected. Even taper pipe threads only achieve a total seal with the special dryseal version, and that mightn't be against firearm pressures. To be sure it was really tight, you would need to leave a slight gap at the front end to collect fouling and start rust.

If the barrels are joined with a screw in line with the vents, as seen here, it would certainly be a convenience. But they would have to be very tight indeed. If gas leaks through the barrel threads it is merely an inconvenience, but through that one it could provide the exhilarating experience of a full-auto double. I don't trust epoxy or Loctite to last for the life of a gun.

I reflect upon the fate of Chung Ling Soo the stage magician, who used to catch bullets, marked by one volunteer from the audience in his teeth. What the loader didn't know was that he was loading Chung Ling Soo's own marked bullet, substituted by his female assistant with the aid of a distractingly brief costume and a double-bottomed box. What was actually fired was a blank charge in a barrel disguised as the ramrod pipe. But Chung Ling Soo was lazy, and unscrewed the breechplug to get back his marked bullet after every performance. The thread wore loose, and he received his own marked bullet through front teeth and spine.

183039

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For anybody interested in building a really large percussion hammer gun, here is an idea worth considering. It is the lock from the 1877 version of the Austro-Hungarian Werndl, with the hammer inside the lockplate. It keeps the width down, and reduces the awkward angle at which you have to drill the channel from the nipple, or the firing-pin hole if it is a breech-loader. I doubt if the lock is available anywhere, and there never was a left-hand version, but it wouldn't be harder to make than any other lock. The hammer is non-rebounding, but it wouldn't be hard to make an underlever lift it to half-cock before the barrel starts to open.

183041

[ogre]

If you are going to build your own then I recommend this book: https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/304/1/BOOK-RDBMLS

[Col4570]

Ballistics in Scotland,Yes I had the dilemma of should I or should I not use the 10 Bore Breach Loading Barrels to produce a double Flintlock Shotgun due to the width.I finally decided to go ahead and in order to reduce that width I made Breach Plugs with recesses.This worked out fine with the lost Wax Lock Parts and surprisingly the Heavy Gun mounts well.I also decided to maintain the full barrels length by squaring off the Forcing Cones and fitting Sleeves in the Breaches.Rather than copy nocks Breach I compromised by boring the Plugs to meet up with the Touch Holes.The patent breach to me is a Labrynth waiting for a blockage.The Barrels passed Proof at the Birmingham Proof House.

[Col4570]

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s452/livebattery/10%20Bore%20Breach%20Plugs%20001.jpg (http://s1052.photobucket.com/user/livebattery/media/10%20Bore%20Breach%20Plugs%20001.jpg.html)
This is the 10 Gauge Breach Plugs,as you see the left Plug requires quite a large piece of steel to produce and then there is the cutting and shaping so that both fit.The recesses can be seen clearly.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Ballistics in Scotland,Yes I had the dilemma of should I or should I not use the 10 Bore Breach Loading Barrels to produce a double Flintlock Shotgun due to the width.I finally decided to go ahead and in order to reduce that width I made Breach Plugs with recesses.This worked out fine with the lost Wax Lock Parts and surprisingly the Heavy Gun mounts well.I also decided to maintain the full barrels length by squaring off the Forcing Cones and fitting Sleeves in the Breaches.Rather than copy nocks Breach I compromised by boring the Plugs to meet up with the Touch Holes.The patent breach to me is a Labrynth waiting for a blockage.The Barrels passed Proof at the Birmingham Proof House.

Yes, those chamber sleeves sound like a good idea. They could possibly be made integral with the plug. Or they could be stainless steel, totally out of sight, in the most difficult part of the barrel to clean well.

[boise outlaw]

question on barrel material for all of you who have built customs, wondering if any of you have experience using 4130 seamless for your barrels and if so what is the recommended wall thickness? Leaning more towards a single barrel fowler but would like a 48" barrel. I can find 7/8" with a .120 wall and .635 bore. Would this work for a 20 ga or do i need to find a thicker wall?