Mossberg Brush Gun

[shoot-n-lead]

Does anyone have one of these?

If so, what is your opinion of it?



https://youtu.be/uTcKZvfOAaY

[jmort]

I assume it it is a 464. Big fan of the 464s. Love mine. Want another.

[shoot-n-lead]

I assume it it is a 464. Big fan of the 464s. Love mine. Want another.

Yeah, it is Trapper length, lam stock and marinecoat finish...pretty neat looking little gun.

[Bzcraig]

I assume it it is a 464. Big fan of the 464s. Love mine. Want another.

Jon - Do you have the 30-30 or 22LR? I'm thinking about adding a rimfire to my leverguns and can't decide between the Henry and this.

[jmort]

I have the .30-30. That would be a dilemma, a .22 Henry or the Mossberg.

[osteodoc08]

Interesting

[northmn]

The 464 is a good rifle. That particular model is a good way for Mossberg to make something they can charge more for. I would not buy one because I really don't like 16 inch barrels on a rifle, others do. On a 30-30 they are worse. Don't like the grey stocks and silver finish but others do. Matter of desire. My favorite "brush gun" is my Marlin 35 Remington with a 24 inch barrel and a scope. Don't believe in spraying lead through the brush to get something.

DEP

[FergusonTO35]

They make one in .35 caliber or above and I'm sold. No interest in .30 WCF in a barrel that short. If Mossy comes out with revolver caliber lever actions for under $500.00 real world price they will sell like mad. Love my 464, going to get it d&t for a receiver sight tonight.

[osteodoc08]

They make one in .35 caliber or above and I'm sold. No interest in .30 WCF in a barrel that short. If Mossy comes out with revolver caliber lever actions for under $500.00 real world price they will sell like mad. Love my 464, going to get it d&t for a receiver sight tonight.

Agreed. Id love to see another entry of 41 mag and even a 480 Ruger.

[jmort]

Yes, a .357 and .44 and .45 would be nice.

[shoot-n-lead]

I think we might see them make a handgun caliber...JMO.

I think that it would be an instant success.

But, as to this gun...I like the looks of it and my Winchester Trapper in 30/30 works so well for my woods deer hunting...I think that this little rifle would be great, also. But, I am partial to short barreled rifles...I have them in several calibers and actions...like them all better than longer rifles.

[FergusonTO35]

Don't get me wrong, I like carbines alot. My 1894C is easily my favorite long gun. I just think they are better matched with a bigger caliber. Likewise, I have no interest in a revolver cartridge out of a 24" barrel although they are well loved by the SASS crowd.

[shoot-n-lead]

Don't get me wrong, I like carbines alot. My 1894C is easily my favorite long gun. I just think they are better matched with a bigger caliber. Likewise, I have no interest in a revolver cartridge out of a 24" barrel although they are well loved by the SASS crowd.

When you say better matched...what do you mean by that? Just wondering...

As a comparison...my 14" Contender in 30/30 will consistently put a bullet completely through a deer at 80yds, and probably farther...kills as well as 20" levergun, at least, at that range.

[FergusonTO35]

I suppose I mean that, the .30 WCF is going to lose a fair amount of velocity out of the short barrel and the muzzle blast will likely be more. Most .30 caliber cartridges are at their best in a barrel of 20" and up. Likewise, the revolver cartridges seem to do their best in barrels 16-20". Any longer than that and the gains in velocity and accuracy will probably be minimal and the gun will be longer and heavier.

[jmort]

Most people overestimate the velocity lost between a 16" 30-30 and whatever length. Around 12 to 18 fps per inch typically. So I doubt 80 fps or less loss will make any difference.

"The Powley Computer (http://kwk.us/powley.html) generally gives good estimates of performance for pressures around 40,000 CUP. Here, it predicts a 170 gn load going 1987 fps from 16", not too far off the numbers Tycer found for you. Going to 20" the Computer estimates 2058 fps or about 18 fps/inch."

The Myth of Barrel Length and Velocity LossOne of the biggest myths that I have heard over the years is that if you shorten the barrel of your rifle or hunt with a carbine that you are going to drop so much velocity that you’re better off getting a more powerful caliber. Well this myth is still going on strong even though it was put to bed more than fifty years ago.
Enter Phil SharpePhil Sharpe was, in his day, perhaps the biggest experimenter of all things guns and at a time when very few could afford such accommodations. His own ballistics lab was only rivaled by those of the ammunition factories, and it became known to handloaders big and small that if you wanted a load tested, Phil was your man.
http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/velocity-phil1.jpg
In 1950 Sharpe performed just such a test with a .30-06 Springfield and with a wide variety of loads. He would fire a round then saw off one inch of the barrel. When the experiment started, the barrel was 30-inches down and when it was over it was 12-inches. This fairly simple experiment would lead Sharpe to conclude many things about barrel length and muzzle velocity, things that are just as true today as they were back in 1950, though unfortunately few then or now ever really listened to them.
Findings and NoticingsOf all the loads and rounds fired through that old Springfield, some fifteen hundred in all, Sharpe found that the greatest loss in power was only five percent from one inch taken off and it’s important to note, that was using a cast bullet load. The myth at the time (and one I still hear) is that there is a rule of 25 fps lost for every inch of barrel taken away: Sharpe proved that wrong.
Sharpe proved that the average loss was really about 12 fps for every inch lost, hardly something to fret over. Some loads even gained some velocity with the shorter barrels over the longer ones. Even so, I doubt any deer, moose or bear would really know the difference between the same load hitting him at a difference of 100 fps or so.
Explaining the PhenomenonHow could this be? Well it goes back to yet another myth, also long ago proven wrong. This is the myth that smokeless powder continues to burn the full length of the barrel.
http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/velocity-smokeless1.jpg
Homer Powley, who was perhaps the best ballistician of his day, found that all smokeless powder gets burned up right in front of the cartridge and even the most powerful magnum rounds burn their powder at the closest three inches to the cartridge. The reason you look down your barrel and see so much unburned powder is because the wrong powder has been matched to that cartridge. A properly matched round will only have a small amount of powder left to look at.
TakeawaySo what about those nice super long barreled rifles meant for super long distances? Well unless you’re a military sniper who intends on waiting in a position for three-days for a shot, you’re better off going portable and getting yourself a nice short barreled rifle. It will do the same job—and you can carry it all day!
A friend of mine who has forgotten more about ballistics and reloading than I will probably ever know long ago showed me his results from similar tests with identical guns of different barrel lengths. His results bore out the truth that a long barrel length is not needed in a rifle other than to look the part of a “sniper” rifle.
http://14544-presscdn-0-64.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/velocity-barrels1.jpg
His weapon of choice in the brush and rough terrain was a Remington 760 carbine in .30-06 (http://www.guns.com/reviews/remington-model-7600.html)with its short eighteen and a half inch barrel. He killed many whitetail since he bought the rifle in the late 1960’s. I doubt any of those deer would have noticed the velocity gains from a longer barrel.
The next time you are looking at a rifle remember that when it comes to velocity there really is no such thing as too short a barrel. Those few extra fps you might lose will be made up in the comfort of carrying around a shorter and lighter gun all day lon




http://www.guns.com/2012/02/16/the-myth-of-barrel-length-and-velocity-loss/

[Piedmont]

There is something to be said for a gun that is longer and heavier. It is easier to shoot well and quieter.

[jmort]

I will take lighter and compact over longer/heavier. But whatever one likes, one should use. To each their own. This is opinion, notwithstanding the velocity "myth."

[shoot-n-lead]

i will take lighter and compact over longer/heavier. But whatever one likes, one should use. To each their own. This is opinion, notwithstanding the velocity "myth."

x 2 ^^^^

I ain't gonna lug around anymore barrel than is necessary for the job...and that ain't much.

[FergusonTO35]

For bottleneck cartridges and shooting at anything over 75 yards I want a long barrel. They are easier for me to hold steady and I don't notice that I am lugging around an extra 2-4" of barrel. When I had my Howa 1500 rebarelled to .257 Roberts I went with a 24" magnum contour tube from E.R. Shaw. At 100 yards this rifle has no trouble putting 38.5 grains Hodgdon 4350 and a 117 grain Sierra Prohunter in the same hole repeatedly if not for the fidgety oaf pulling the trigger!

[Errolhill]

For bottleneck cartridges and shooting at anything over 75 yards I want a long barrel. They are easier for me to hold steady and I don't notice that I am lugging around an extra 2-4" of barrel. When I had my Howa 1500 rebarelled to .257 Roberts I went with a 24" magnum contour tube from E.R. Shaw. At 100 yards this rifle has no trouble putting 38.5 grains Hodgdon 4350 and a 117 grain Sierra Prohunter in the same hole repeatedly if not for the fidgety oaf pulling the trigger!
I have carried a 16.25 " barrel in a Marlin maurader carbine in 30-30 For 25 plus years while guiding bear hunts with hounds and also cronographed compared to a 20" barrel and there is roughly A 50 ft per second difference at best .I used hornady leverlutions in 140 and 160 with the 30-30 with the chronograph also my bench rest stolle actions very rarely had a barrel over 19" so I personally don't see the difference in the barrel length being a show stopper ,they are also nice and easy to carry thru the brush you notice the difference between that trapper style rifle and carrying a model 86 at the end of the day

[FergusonTO35]

I don't disagree with anything said here, just a personal preference. One thing I will say from experience is, never assume that published velocity is going to apply to your specific situation regardless of source. Way too many variables at play to go on the testing of another person. Even among identical guns shooting the same load there is often a difference. Things like primer brand, powder type, boolit size/hardness, lube; all these things can change the numbers drastically.

[quilbilly]

They make one in .35 caliber or above and I'm sold. No interest in .30 WCF in a barrel that short. If Mossy comes out with revolver caliber lever actions for under $500.00 real world price they will sell like mad. Love my 464, going to get it d&t for a receiver sight tonight.
I've had my 464 30/30 for five years and love it. It has shot every CB I have fed it with good accuracy and feeding including the 130 gr. plain base at 1200 fps. That marine coat finish would be nice around here as well as that shorter barrel. I agree with you about the 35 cal. I will race you to the store if they come up with a 35.

[shoot-n-lead]

I don't disagree with anything said here, just a personal preference. One thing I will say from experience is, never assume that published velocity is going to apply to your specific situation regardless of source. Way too many variables at play to go on the testing of another person. Even among identical guns shooting the same load there is often a difference. Things like primer brand, powder type, boolit size/hardness, lube; all these things can change the numbers drastically.

I have loaded and chrono'd enough loads of varying components to know that there is very seldom a drastic difference in velocity of similar loads...matter of fact, I have never seen a drastic difference. There will be some difference...but it is not enough to affect kill performance. The difference is normally more in accuracy...but they are still, reasonably close.

[FergusonTO35]

Handguns seem to be much more sensitive to barrel length and ammo components than rifles. With rifles I always load for accuracy.

[Bzcraig]

While at the LGS today I saw a Mossberg 464 in 22lr so I asked to see it. I was impressed with the fit and finish and the action was buttery smooth, much better than the Henry I compared it to. When I decide to get one it will definitely be a Mossberg.

[Ramjet-SS]

The Mossberg 30-30 is outstanding, a great value. Fit and finish is outstanding. the Marinecoat is durable tough finish. A the only criticism I have is the tang safety. Seems out of place. These guns love the 165 Hornady FTX ammo.

[shoot-n-lead]

The Mossberg 30-30 is outstanding, a great value. Fit and finish is outstanding. the Marinecoat is durable tough finish. A the only criticism I have is the tang safety. Seems out of place. These guns love the 165 Hornady FTX ammo.

Well, they may be great for some...but, it ain't looking that way for me, right now.

I just got a new one last week...it won't reliably feed from the magazine. The fit and finish seems to be good...but it is a very light made gun...jury is still out on it and at this point, I won't recommend one.

[Ramjet-SS]

I can tell you they need to be cleaned up and the action worked over to smooth out the mating parts. Something to do while sitting in front of the TV watching mindless TV programs. I will also tell you do not baby that action when you run it or you will have failure to feed issues. It smooths out in short order. If you are reloading make sure the ammo is seated to the proper depth too long equals issues. But you already know that. I found mine really
like's the Hornady FTX 165 grain ammo.

[Ithaca Gunner]

I don't own one, but I'd consider it above many on the market today.

[Texas by God]

Mossberg should get Hornady to introduce the 35-30 as the .360 Mossberg..... I'd buy one! Best, Thomas.

[braddonovan67]

I really like my 464. I have some gas checked cast boolits loaded up for my next range day. Should be fun. To echo what others have said, my gun loves the hornady 165 ftx bullets.

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[kingstrider]

I remember when these came out and the less than favorable reception from the lever gun community because it wasn't traditional what with its silver finish, laminated stocks and fiber optic sights. Personally this gun is near perfection for me as far as configuration goes and I would love have one some day.

[richhodg66]

Mossberg should get Hornady to introduce the 35-30 as the .360 Mossberg..... I'd buy one! Best, Thomas.

Actually, that sounds like a good idea. If they did the marketing hype correctly, I bet it'd work. "The new .360 Mossberg gives xx% more energy down range than the .30-30, yada, yada, yada". It would be cool for Mossberg to have a proprietary cartridge like Savage or Marlin has done over the years..

On that note, what would the likelihood be of them chambering the 464 in .35 Remington, .444 Marlin, etc.?

[curioushooter]

That is a Mossberg 464, a very high-value/$ rifle, with 16" barrel and Marinekote finish (I think a nickel plate) wearing laminated "salt and pepper" furniture. It may be a tad lighter than a 20" in walnut (like I have) because of less barrel/magazine metal, but laminate stocks are heavier than walnut, so I am not so sure. I can tell you three things: it has one less round in the magazine, it has a shorter sighting radius, and it will have lower velocity. If you think that a couple ounces and inches make it that much handier, than go for it. It's still a shoulder fired weapon, still can't be holstered easily, and still needs a sling if you want use of your hands.

Phil Sharpe was working with different propellants than are available today, and it isn't stated in the post what he was using, but is must have been fast if he was loosing velocity in 30-'06 like that. Slow progressive burning propellants in high pressure cartridges with heavy bullets LOOSE considerable velocity, about 25 FPS/IN like my Hornady load manual states.

With Lil'Gun pushing 180 grain bullets and allowed a solid 20" of barrel length, 357 magnum nips at the heels of 30-30 in muzzle energy with the same length barrel. With a 30-30 in a 16" barrel the saying that you could go down to a less powerful cartridge has some truth to it, therefore. And you get more boom and blast with the shorter barrel.

All said, I think that 18-20 inches is about perfect for a 30-30 lever gun, and it long enough to get an honest 6 rounds in there.

[curioushooter]

You know what would be WAY COOLER than ANOTHER proprietary cartridge--a good existing cartridge appropriate for the platform. I propose that Mossberg would be far better served by simply chambering the 464 in 357 Herret, which is a 30-30 case blow out and necked up to 35 caliber. It is roughly equal to 35 Remington, which has been fond in 30-30 size lever guns for years. One wouldn't even need to mess around with changing the bolt head, etc. And 357 Herret is Indiana legal for hunting on public land. If Mossberg approached Hornady, or another company interested in this sort of thing, they could start forming 357 Herret brass directly and factory loading it (the 200 grain FTX bullet would be a natural). And they could probably use much of the existing tooling and the same brass coins used for 30-30. Now that would be a BRUSH GUN!

[725]

I like the way you think, curioushooter. That would be a dandy brush gun.

[FergusonTO35]

Yep, agree 100%. While we're dreaming, how 'bout a 464 in .375 WCF?:2_high5:

[braddonovan67]

Nah. They need to come out with the 464 in .44mag, .357mag and 45LC. That rifle is too good to have in only one caliber

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[curioushooter]

Well, I'd have to disagree with both Braddonovan and Ferguson. 375 is a cartridge that should have never been. It is an oddball caliber with very little market support. And it isn't any practically speaking isn't much different than 35 caliber. The fact that Hornady makes FTX bullets in 35 caliber and not in 375 should tell you something.

And 44, 357, and 45 are all short OAL cartridges that probably will have problems in the 464 which is sized for 30-30. Remember, Marlin tried to put 44 in their 336 rifle, which is 30-30 sized, and it didn't work well. They ended up re-introducing the Model 1894 that had been discontinued for decades but was designed for short OAL cartridges.

Now, I do think the 464 would make sense in 357 Herret (and that would be no worse than inventing a new cartridge) or 35 Remington or, perhaps, a 410 shotgun or perhaps 444 Marlin or something. It would also make sense, thought not as a "bush gun," to go down caliber with a 7-30 Waters or 25-35 (Hornady has a .257 FTX bullet, btw). Perhaps a revival of the very sensible 7-30 Waters would encourage Hornady to make a FTX bullet in 7mm.

One of the things I like about these cartridges in the moderate pressure moderate power category is that they work very well with cast bullets, especially the 30-30 with its long neck. There's a reason why 30-30 is so popular. It's really a great cartridge for deer, and it reloading is straightforward and it accepts cast bullets well. It also has moderate recoil and can be put into a lightweight rifle without making it snappy or unpleasant. Check out a review of the 464 and 30-30 (https://guidetograssandguns.wordpress.com/2016/12/07/a-good-deer-rifle/).

[Ramjet-SS]

I know the Mossberg tacti-cool 30-30 is really ugly but it is also all the things I wanted in my 30-30;
Accurate
Light weight
Reliable
With the collapsible stock and a 3-point it is easy to carry in the ready position.
The scout scope on it with the XO peep and post for back up sights give it redundancy in sights.

Yup its ugly and weird but I really like mine loaded with Hornady FTX or a good 170 LFN GC over a goodly dose of LeverRevolution, it really fills a need for me as good truck gun.

[Mgderf]

Three years ago, my sister-in-law called and asked me to help her pick out a rifle for my brothers Christmas gift.
She knew he wanted a lever action, and that was it! No other info. to go on.
O.K. this could be fun.

She said they had been looking at them together at a gun store on a trip, but she didn't know what it was.
She wanted to spend around $500.
I asked if it was a .22. She said she didn't think so.
Maybe a .30-30?
"Yes! That's it!"

Now we're getting somewhere.
I went on Gunbroker and started looking for a used Marlin 336.
I had one of my own in the safe and really liked it.
None to be found, with the odd exception of the one or two whose owners thought they were made of gold.

I went to Davisons Gallery of Guns, and searched for lever action .30-30.
What popped up was the Mossberg 464 with the salt and pepper laminate stock and marinecote finish.
It listed for almost exactly $400, so I recommended she consider this option.

We placed the order with the local gun shop and waited.
A few days later the shop called to tell me the 464 was in.
When he handed it to me to inspect, I raised it to my shoulder and looked down those fiber optic sights.
I racked the lever, then pulled the trigger (catching the hammer).

I turned and told the shop owner, "Order another one for me."
When I got it, I sold my 336 to my youngest brother.

Fast-forward 3 years and my state FINALLY opened center-fired rifles (in certain calibers, on a trial run) this year.
My new Mossberg 464 took a 3 point buck this year. A single shot, off-hand, from about 60 yards.
I pulled the trigger and that buck disappeared!
It didn't jump, or run, it just vanished!
I got to the bottom of the hill and found my buck laying exactly where he had been shot.
It dropped straight sideways and just behind a slight roll in the ground.
He never took a single step after the shot.

Yes, I'm VERY happy with my 464.

My next lever is going to be one of the new Henry Big Boy Steel in .327 Federal magnum...

[curioushooter]

Yea I understand that SPX versions that look taciti-cool. There are some advantages there. I think a lever rifle in 30-30 makes more sense than ANY pump shotgun for just about everything besides shooting birds or bunnies.