Cream of Wheat?

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I noticed in another thread that someone uses 18grns 3Fg and cream of wheat under the balls in his revolver.

My wife shoots 10 to 15 grains 3Fg in her Pietta 1851 clone.

I'm wondering if I should be having her use filler, and if so, why? I'm pretty sure there's nothing special about the breech ends of the chambers as there are in some patent breech rifles.

Help?

Thank you,

Josh

[Standing Bear]

Filler moves the ball closer to the forcing cone. Top pistol shooters do this. I'm not a top pistol shooter but learned over 30 years ago to follow the practices of top rifle shooters and apply that to pistols as well.
TC

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Sounds like a simple test. Try both ways, see if accuracy gain is worth the effort of using the COW. Let us know.

[curator]

Cream of Wheat (COW) cereal has some interesting properties when used as a ballistic filler. It can do more than just take up powder space so that the ball has a shorter 'jump" into the forcing cone. Because it compresses into a hard plug upon firing, COW also seals off any potential gas leakage as the ball travels down the barrel. Many if not most Italian replica revolvers have cylinder chambers that are under the groove diameter of the rifled barrels. Without some kind of gas-seal, undersize balls will not obturate centered in the rifling and accuracy will suffer. The combination of better gas sealing and increased ejecta weight (filler plus ball) raises chamber pressure resulting in more efficient/cleaner powder burn and a small increase in velocity. The plug of compressed COW scrubs the bore of possible leading and fouling with each successive shot. The trick is to carefully measure COW as it is not very easily compressed if you load too much.

[country gent]

I use Cream of Wheat in some BPCR rifle loads. with true Black powder in big cases I want to lower the thump on. I have found Cream of Wheat to meter well thru most powder measures. A clear plastic powder flask measure would worrk nicely here for the cream of wheat filler. Drop your 15-20 grn charge of powder in the cylinfder then a light paper or card wad. ( I like this to keep powder and fillers from mixing) with the clear flask and appropriate tube add the volumne measured Cream of Wheat and ball. Top of with some crisco or lube to seal cylinder mouths and your good to go.

[GoexBlackhorn]

I use yellow cornmeal as a wad.

[OverMax]

I use it for blowing out brass to cylinder. (below)
COW from what I've observed allows a small powder charge to increase its burn pressure substantially before its exiting.

Fire forming this brass:
444 Rem to 2-5/16th- 410 shot-shell.__ 9.3X74r to 3"-410 shot-shell__prior trimmed 308 Win to 300 Savage.

[Good Cheer]

Might want to check your chambers for being taper bored.
If they are then the deeper the balls get seated the smaller the projectile is, giving it more rattle room in the barrel.
By the way, I've seen chambers bored to varying depths in the same cylinder. So that made them difference diameters at the same seating depth!

[Hellgate]

My experience with COW is mirrored by what Curator said. I was surprised at how clean the bore is when using COW under the ball. It truly scours the bore. I found COW much less compressible than BP.

Early on in my CAS career I met a guy that used COW over the BP and margerine over the ball. He smiled and said "Every time I touch this thing off I can smell breakfast cookin'". I guess he liked his eggs rotten.

[rond]

I hate Cream of Wheat, will grits work?:)

[Hellgate]

I know many use cornmeal. It is a little more compressible.

[GoexBlackhorn]

I know many use cornmeal. It is a little more compressible.

For hunting with my ML rifle, Yellow Cornmeal pours out of a blackpowder flask easily, right into a brass volume measurer.

[jjarrell]

Do any of you use COW over the powder charge in your muzzleloading rifles with round balls or conicals? I see a lot of info about using it with BPCR's and revolvers, but not much about people using it in actual muzzleloaders. Does it improve accuracy? Help with fouling? Is it worth the extra step when loading? Im going to try it and see, but welcome all of your experience too.

[curator]

Jjarell,

COW as a wad/filler/gas-seal between the powder charge and a patched round ball will give much better accuracy if the patch/ball combination is under sized for the bore. Often, a easy to load patch/ball combination will not shoot very accurately even with light powder charges. The COW filler compresses behind the projectile upon ignition preventing accuracy-robbing gas leakage. Works good with Maxi and Minie' bullets too. Finding the right ratio of COW to powder can be tricky. Generally I have used 1/2 the powder charge by volume. Larger bores, like .58 may need 3/4 to equal amounts. Fouling is less both from the "scrubbing" action and the increased pressure and burning efficiency created by the heavier COW/projectile payload. Extra step and carrying two powder flasks and increasing the chances of getting them mixed up when loading is the downside. This may be partly offset by not having to use a short starter.

[Omnivore]

A couple of downsides; 1. It Violates the K.I.S.S. principle. 2. Some people have an aversion to shooting food. Alternatives would be;

Find a load that shoots well without food in it.
Use a felt wad (much easier).
If you want to shoot reduced loads, get a small gun that's made for reduced loads, such as the '62 Colt Police or the Remington Pocket model.
Have your chambers bored out to at least the barrel groove diameter, or one to three thousandths over.

There are those who claim to have done extensive tests, and have determined that the distance of the bullet to the forcing cone in a revolver makes no discernible difference in accuracy.

We're mixing up and conflating principles in this thread though, terribly.

There is the position of the ball relative to the forcing cone in a revolver.
There is the issue of (possibly) "scrubbing" the bore clean (but the powder is BEHIND the "cleaner").
There is the issue of (Maybe) creating a better gas seal when using an undersized projectile (use the proper size projectile, or ream your revolver chambers to the proper size)
There is the issue of creating a better gas seal when using conicals in a ML rifle, and there a lot of people, including me, have gotten vastly improved accuracy by using a felt wad (paper patching is another proven technique).
There is the issue of taking up the extra space in a metal cartridge when using reduced loads (there are lots of materials which might be, and are, used for that purpose, including various types of wads).

Did I miss any?

Anyway, I think there are enough ways to get good accuracy without carrying an extra flask and measure into the filed, that I will never carry an extra flask and measure into the field. I won't even consider it. I usually don't carry even a single flask, or horn, or measure, into the field anyway, preferring to use pre-fab paper cartridges for the revolvers.

When hunting with a ML rifle you're taking one, and maybe two shots at the most, and in that case I carry the loaded rifle with two of the Quick-Shot type, plastic reloading tubes and a short starter in one pocket. The rifle has a patch box with patches and rod tips in it. No bag, no horn, no measure, no blah blah blah blah, and then I can move easily through brush, and climb, etc. and concentrate on that one shot that matters.

On the matter of complexity; The idea of setting up a fixed shooting position, with a table, or maybe two tables, a loading stand, having a plethora of loading and shooting and lubricating and cleaning accessories and tools, all laid out on a "Buffet Table", maybe even with a folding chair complete with beverage holders and a sun shade, and so on and so on and etc., is to me missing the point.

If I can't walk and shoot, and hunt, and climb trees, in poor weather, in the field with exactly the same equipment and loading practices I'd use at a groomed range (don't park on the grass!) with fixed shooting positions and stationary, standardized targets (agreed upon by international committee) at fixed, carefully measured, standard distances agreed upon by international committee, on sunny days, being concerned about stepping up to the scratch line (just so, mind you - place your toe right up to that line) waiting for some range officer's OK before I take a shot, then I figure I'm doing it every possible kind of wrong.

But to each his own. Some people enjoy the added complexity and regimentation.

[Black Powder Bill]

^^^^^ Thanks ^^^

[725]

Lots of ways to skin a cat. To each his own. I, for one, sure like to hear them all.

[northmn]

Some like to have a protection between the powder and the lubricated ball to prevent contamination from the lube into the powder. COW may help with that. My own philosophy is similar to Ominivore's for hunting. However the initial load is the most important for deer hunting and probably the one that counts. Depending on philosophy, that load may stay in the gun the longest. Some used to use a dry patch to form a wad underneath the lubed patch for that purpose. Target shooting is a different game and the "buffet" principle works for many. For hunting, even for squirrels I can carry my possibles in my hunting jacket pockets.

DP