45/70 Collar button boolits

[Leadmelter]

In the latest edition of "Black Powder Cartridge news", there is article on page 36 about a gallery load for the 45/70.
Has anybody tried these boolits. They are the Lyman #457130 at 145grs.
Leadmelter
MI

[MT Chambers]

There have been a few diff. group buys from NOE I think, and others, and it is a great fun bullet in any form for the 45/70 and is usually much more accurate then the RB.

[Greg S]

I picked up a NOE 460-186 CB mold during their 4th of July sale. Nice 4c mold, they drop like rain out of it. Big grease groove.

[enfield]

Same as Greg S , can't beat the NOE stuff. I assume it drops a tad fatter than the Lyman as well.

[curator]

I had one of the Ideal .45 collar-button bullet moulds that came from a National Guard armory. I cast slugs with plumber's lead and greased them with Crisco. The original gallery load was 20 grains of FFFg black powder which I tried with little success. An "old-timer" at my gun club showed me the way the originals were loaded; deep inside the fire-formed and unsized case, not protruding from the case mouth. A thin card wad was placed on the powder charge and the bullet seated on top. These shot much more accurately in my 1884 Springfield trapdoor rifle. Good enough in fact to use it for squirrel hunting once I figured out the sights setting. Eventually I substituted 4 to 5 grains of Unique so I wouldn't have to clean rifle and cartridge cases immediately after a shooting session. This worked nearly as good but the black powder load was definitely more accurate.

[swamp]

I have a Walt made NEI mould. It is accurate and lots of fun in my 45-70s and 458.
swamp

[marlinman93]

I have a lightweight NEI mold also that was built when Walt was still out in Scappose. It is a fun plinker load, but not much good for anything but 100 yds. or less.

[1Hawkeye]

I have one of the old ideal molds for the collar button. I found it at Ft Shenandoah at the nationals new in the original grease for 20 bucks. Best 20 I ever spent on a mold heats up quick and they fall out like they are ejected. I been using 6.0 grs of unique and I make sure that the powder is up against the primer before firing (it actually makes a difference) at 25 yards it will make one ragged hole for 5 shots. I haven't used any lube on them yet just shooting them as cast. The old 1929 Lyman book I have says to use 6 grs of black powder but does not say anything about where to seat the button.

[Mr Humble]

Buttons are fun, but if you have a nasty streak try a charge for a 400 gr boolit with a card wad, enough Cuban corn meal to bring THREE round balls rolled in Lee lube up to the case mouth and a light crimp applied. At 25 yards all 3 would land in Achmeds chest and even at 50 you'ld still hit him and some of his buddies. There was a reason why some Union units fought like hell against giving up there "buck and ball" muskets for the new fangeled rifle muskets.

2 groups of 3 @ 25 yds
182453
Key West winter loading bench. These were 458s but 45-70 works as well.

182454

[17nut]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_147

182559

I run 12 grains Trailboss for a fun plinker.

[Mr Humble]

Hmm, wonder if I could stack 2 or 3 of those with a cork wad between them ? Might be more accurate at 50 than my round balls.

[dualsport]

I want to see that! Sounds like a serious load.

[17nut]

Hmm, wonder if I could stack 2 or 3 of those with a cork wad between them ? Might be more accurate at 50 than my round balls.

Get Tom at accuratemolds to cut you a true wadcutter 150gr-.460" if you want to try multiball.
The NOE button is "long" and "heavy" compared to roundballs or wadcutters.

[jazzman251]

Never tried any (yet) but this might be an inexpensive option. Western Bullet sells them. Just a thought.

http://westernbullet.com/ly4gr6.html

[DocSavage]

I've a Saeco mold block that casts a 250 gr wadcutter for the 45 Colt and it casts out to .457 wit the alloy I was using at the time. I stacked 2 of them in a 45/70 case over a change of 2400,would print 1 -2" out to 50 yds with 2 holes in the target. Fun load and vertually no recoil.

[John in PA]

I have the original Lyman/Ideal mold for the 457130 also. I used it with 7.0 gr of Red Dot and a tuft of dacron fiberfill to hold the powder against the primer. Shot it in a Shiloh Sharps. Chronographed at 1210 fps with an 18 standard deviation. Recoil negligible, a bit like shooting a .44-40 in a heavy rifle. Good plinking accuracy. Big fun.

[longbow]

Another option is Tom at Accurate Moulds, He can cut about anything you want except he has to leave a small meplat and he can't cut as deep groove as collar buttons have. I had him make me a 165 gr. TC design for my .44 Marlin. Very much like a collar button but a bit heavier. Works very well.

If you want to stack them then a very blunt nose or wadcutter as 17nut said would be better than a collar button. But if you want an accurate lightweight plinker or maybe small game boolit the collar button styles are great.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Another option is Tom at Accurate Moulds, He can cut about anything you want except he has to leave a small meplat and he can't cut as deep groove as collar buttons have. I had him make me a 165 gr. TC design for my .44 Marlin. Very much like a collar button but a bit heavier. Works very well.

If you want to stack them then a very blunt nose or wadcutter as 17nut said would be better than a collar button. But if you want an accurate lightweight plinker or maybe small game boolit the collar button styles are great.

I think a stack of very short tuna-can wadcutters would indeed work better than a pointed bullet. I saw an article on this long ago, and the author found they grouped surprisingly closely. It seems like they stay together, and the reduced air pressure at the rear keeps pulling the last one off the stack. At last it provides a good reason to have a revolver in .357 Maximum rather than Magnum. t

The problem would be getting them in .45 rifle diameter. The bullet illustrated above could be filed flat in a simple holding device. There might be some point in powder coating or a paper disc between them, to prevent pressure and gas leakage from fusing them together.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=42_147

182559

I run 12 grains Trailboss for a fun plinker.

For anything but really light gallery loads, this strikes me as better than those with an even larger, rounded lube groove. Under pressure the rear band might collapse or tilt - and it isn't like your illustration doesn't have enough space for lube.

[longbow]

I think the original Ideal collar button design used the large "lube" groove to allow longer bearing length but same weight as a round ball. That is a lot of lube for that size boolit even for BP.

[17nut]

For anything but really light gallery loads, this strikes me as better than those with an even larger, rounded lube groove. Under pressure the rear band might collapse or tilt - and it isn't like your illustration doesn't have enough space for lube.

Is 1600fps a really light gallery load?
I load 12 grains of TinStar (Vv equvivalent of Trailboss) and it just works.

[GRUMPA]

I'm using the NOE mould and use 10gr of Unique, talk about a fun plinker. Accuracy is pretty good up to 100yds or so but I haven't taken it further than that, maybe some day I will. Recoil was like using a 22 but of course the rifle itself weighs substantially more but I like them. I don't use the lube groove, I PC mine.

When I go to the LGS it's amazing just how popular the 45-70 is around these parts. The biggest set back (If you want to call it that) is the amount of recoil the heavier bullets produce, so they shoot the 300gr ish loads. Most don't reload either, so they're kinda stuck with what the factory has to offer, and as far as I know factories just don't use those collar button bullets.

[Leadmelter]

Do you to put a tuft of dacron over the powder when using Unique or 2400?
Leadmelter
MI

[GRUMPA]

Unique "IS NOT" a position sensitive powder. I don't use "ANY" fillers in that load at all. But as soon as I get the Trail Boss I ordered come in I'll try that as well, thinking 12gr of that should be OK, don't think I'll need a filler for that load either.

[1Hawkeye]

I didn't use a filler with mine either when using unique. I did tip up the muzzle to get the powder against the flash hole through. I don't like using filler and risk ringing the chamber. Unique is a safe powder being not position sensitive but the chronograph did show better consistency with the powder up against the primer even though accuracy was about the same.

[Leadmelter]

I heard from Western Bullets and he making up a batch this weekend.
Leadmelter
MI

[BAGTIC]

Curator, Did you load the smokeless load directly atop the wad too? I shoot RB and I find they work best when then are seated directly atop the smokeless charge