Stackable wadcutters in 45 Colt?

[yondering]

Any of you guys tried (or thought about) messing with stackable wadcutters in the 45 Colt? I've been playing with a double round ball load, then tried a 185gr SWC over a round ball, and started wondering about 2 or maybe 3 short wadcutters stacked over a light powder charge.

I don't know that there would be much practical use for it, but it could be a fun load to play with. I've read about similar loads for .357/38's, but couldn't find anything similar for 45's.

[Lead melter]

Many years ago I read an artical in a gun rag about a fellow doing the same thing with the then new 357 Maximum. The particulars of boolit weight, powder charge, etc. escape me, but I do remember he settled on a load of 6 wadcutters {I'm sure they were highly modified} in the casing. His idea was to use the revolver with a spread pattern from the 6 slugs for home defense while at the same time eliminating any overpenetration {walls, neighboring homes} issues.
The Maximum operating at much higher pressure levels than standard 45 Colt was probably a much safer vehicle for the idea. It might be wise to proceed with the Colt in a VERY cautious manner, although the idea does have merit if the bugs can get worked out.

[NSP64]

I used to load 'triplex' loads in my .357,44mag, 45 auto. I would cut boolits and stack them. I made sure the weight of the loads matched some published weights. I used 2 slugs in the 45 and 3 in the others. all the slugs were diferent weights so the would fly different paths. worked good I would get 6" spread at 25 yrds.:drinks:

[beagle]

Now, you can take an undersize RB and bump it using a flat TP and create some mini wadcutters. Think I used a .429" in the .45 Colt bumped to .452". I dipped in liquid alox and they shot fine at about 25 yards but were pretty limited at 50 yards.

Might be aplace to start./beagle

[MT Gianni]

I considered this after the last NCBS Stake shoot. I was thinking a couple of RB's with enough power to cut through 5/8 plywood would double your chances. Gianni

[ktw]

Now, you can take an undersize RB and bump it using a flat TP and create some mini wadcutters.

I was reading this thread with mild interest (I could see it turning into being tempted to join another group buy and didn't want to go there) until I read the above by beagle. That was one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time. I was out of my chair, down the stairs and setting up a LAMII in about 10 seconds flat.

I used .440 round balls and a .452 die. I had to fit a spacer between the die punch and the punch return rod below in order to get the punch to bottom out to work on the relatively short roundballs. I used a wheelweight for the spacer.

My flat 45 punch didn't have enough depth to it and it gave me the slugs on the right side of the picture. I switched over to a slightly deeper 424 punch and got the mini-wadcutters on the left.

Three of them stacked will fit in a 45 Colt case with a modest amount of space left for powder. These things weigh 128 grains apiece, 3 of them add up to 384 grains! Two of them at a time might be a better idea...

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/ktwna/45wadcutter.jpg

-ktw

[calsite]

Years ago, before I was allowed to even own a gun I subscribed to Guns and Ammo mag. (I think I even had to hide that from my step mother) There was a article on stackable wad cutters, they were produced to be stackable, I believe they were shot out of a .357, flat lead wafers, that had a bit of a tit in the middle of each I guess to aid in keeping them together a bit longer after they lef the barrel. If I recall correctly 4 or 5 of these wafers could be stacked in a .357 case

[azrednek]

Friend of mine did it with 41 Mag using two Lee full wad cutters. He claimed with three slugs the muzzle flip was uncontrollable in his 4" nickle plated S&W revolver. Can't recall the model number of the revolver, it wasn't the 57, his had fixed sights and small grips. I put six of his loads through my 8 3/8 " Model 57 at about 15 or 20 yards. Best I recall the slugs printed apx one to one and a half inches apart and the recoil was about the same as a factory 210.

In the 70's there used to be a regular gunshow vendor that sold 38's and 357's loaded with double ought buck shot. Two pellets in 38 and three in 357.

[nicholst55]

I've got a box of .452" 152 grain SWCs from Oregon Trail sitting at the house, waiting for me to get back. I was planning to just smelt them down and use the antimony to sweeten some other alloy with, but now I'm wondering..... :idea:

Maybe I'll hafta give this idea a try. Two of 'em would be just about right, used with 300 grain load data! There's no crimp groove on them, as they're intended for .45 ACP. I guess I could crimp over the front edge of the driving band.

[hs45/70]

For those that cast their own...once you have your mold up to operating temp. useing needle nose plier.. insert a gascheck into the lube groove of choice in your mold and fill with alloy.
Depending on which lube groove you use you can vary the weight and therfore the amount of stackable wadcutter s' you can try out in a pistol case.

Have mostly done this in my 45/70..444...but works good in a T/C .44 mag too.

[andrew375]

I made a mould for these one. I just used a 9m.m. slot drill for the .38/.357 ones and an 11 m.m. slot drill for the .44. Made the cavities about .2 inch deep. Of course these were straight sided and were lubed with a dip lube. I didn't play with them much as their value appeared to be limited; in the .44 magnum I loaded up to 4 bullets in the case but if I was far away enough to see any spread only one or two would actually be on target. So what was more effective; one 330gr bullet where the gun is pointed or one (or maybe two) 60 grainers?

[Ricochet]

Seems to me I read about someone stacking washers and shooting them out of a shotgun.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Reading this thread made me wonder what would be the result, if one could produce a mold that would cast wedge shaped pieces, like the sections of a bamboo fly rod, or for you non fishermen, a watermelon cut lengthwise, that when put together and sized, or better yet swaged, would be a six part bullet. The centrifugal force of its rotation, when fired should cause the wedges to fly apart. Would be good snake medicine, I think.
Morgan

[yondering]

For those that cast their own...once you have your mold up to operating temp. useing needle nose plier.. insert a gascheck into the lube groove of choice in your mold and fill with alloy.
Depending on which lube groove you use you can vary the weight and therfore the amount of stackable wadcutter s' you can try out in a pistol case.

Have mostly done this in my 45/70..444...but works good in a T/C .44 mag too.

Well, hey, there's an idea! I'll have to try that this weekend. I'm sure I've got several molds that would work for that. I knew somebody here would come up with something.

[yondering]

I was reading this thread with mild interest (I could see it turning into being tempted to join another group buy and didn't want to go there) until I read the above by beagle. That was one of the best ideas I've heard in a long time. I was out of my chair, down the stairs and setting up a LAMII in about 10 seconds flat.

I used .440 round balls and a .452 die. I had to fit a spacer between the die punch and the punch return rod below in order to get the punch to bottom out to work on the relatively short roundballs. I used a wheelweight for the spacer.

My flat 45 punch didn't have enough depth to it and it gave me the slugs on the right side of the picture. I switched over to a slightly deeper 424 punch and got the mini-wadcutters on the left.

Three of them stacked will fit in a 45 Colt case with a modest amount of space left for powder. These things weigh 128 grains apiece, 3 of them add up to 384 grains! Two of them at a time might be a better idea...

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/ktwna/45wadcutter.jpg

-ktw

Those little mini-wadcutters are cool! I thought of trying to bump up some undersize round balls, but so far I don't have a lubersizer, just using the Lee push through sizers, so I haven't figured out an easy way to do that. I have found that .454" round balls do bump up in the bore when fired, to engage the rifling a bit more.

Pardon my ignorance though, but what is a LAMII?

Ricochet, did you ever watch Young Guns II? Billy the Kid's guard in jail has a 12 gauge loaded with 18 dimes. I checked, and dimes are about the right size. Talk about blowing your money away though!

[nicholst55]

Ricochet, did you ever watch Young Guns II? Billy the Kid's guard in jail has a 12 gauge loaded with 18 dimes. I checked, and dimes are about the right size. Talk about blowing your money away though!


Keith Carradine pretty well 'busted' that myth in one episode of 'Wild West Tech.' He had a pig carcass suspended, dressed in period clothes. At just a few feet, all that resulted would have been bruises - none of the dimes even penetrated the clothing, IIRC. Still, it's a good story!

[ktw]

Pardon my ignorance though, but what is a LAMII?

The standard RCBS lube-sizer. It's a little beefier than the Lyman unit and more capable of standing up to this kind of abuse.

-ktw

[Bret4207]

Rather than .440 RB's how about .375 RB's? They'd flatten more and our 385 gr would come in down around 270 gr.

[Scrounger]

I saw that the other night in the 1970s movie, "Pat Garrett and Billy The Kid", starring James Coburn and Kris Kristofferson. The guard says he has 16 dimes loaded in his shotgun. A little later Billy gets it and shoots him with it. Quite effective in the movie. They wouldn't lie to us about that, would they? This movie had Bob Dylan in it, as well as a bunch of the better known Western actors from the 50s. Great movie.

[testhop]

charles askins wrote about useinga lyman mould to load 3 slugs in a 38specal or 357 i
dont rembemerwitch he stacked 3 of a lignt weight w,,c,that made up maybe just for him
(back in the days when lymanhad coustmer service ) the mould turn out cuped bases so one fit in the other old charles though he had just the ticket for bad shots he had photos of a target with 3 holes looked good i dont know what happend never heardabout it any more
i looked it up in my old lyman catlogisee there is a 75gr mould but it is flat base this is 3581101
o.k iknow this is not on the 45 but it does show it has been done.
the redding catlog shows 2 moulds that may work thay are 062 and o62b both are 160gr and 170 the nose is too long nbut you can bump it up thay would give you a lube grove

[Ricochet]

Don't think I've seen that movie with the dimes in the shotgun. Maybe it takes those Hollywood techs to make it work right.

[10-x]

Back in the 70's an ammo maker made what they called "Quad-Loads for 38 SPL/.357 MAG. They used 3 beveled base (slanted)wad cutters stacked in a .38 SPL case, looked like a regular wad cutter. I may even have one in a box somewhere???We tested them on many kinds of targets with different length barrels. Results were they worked best from a 6" barrel and had a spread of about 2-3" at 50'. Have alway wondered why they were "advertised" for LE and use in a snub nose revolver when there was NO seperation even at 50'????.
Most LE shoots happen under 20'....go figure....
Same story with the 9MM and the L.E.A.A.........all B.S.
Would be very interesting" to try them in a "Real Caliber"(.45 or .44).
Just think of 3 or more Large caliber boolits going down range :Fire:

[Jim]

I saw that the other night in the 1970s movie, "Pat Garrett and Billy The Kid", starring James Coburn and Kris Kristofferson. The guard says he has 16 dimes loaded in his shotgun. A little later Billy gets it and shoots him with it. Quite effective in the movie. They wouldn't lie to us about that, would they? This movie had Bob Dylan in it, as well as a bunch of the better known Western actors from the 50s. Great movie.

When I was a kid, my uncle taught me to determine the choke of a 12 gauge using a dime. If it wouldn't fit, it was a full. If it fit and touched, it was a modified. If it fit and was loose, it was an open choke.
I'd hate to see what happens firing a load of dimes through a full choke.

[45 2.1]

Something to look at. 81.5 gr. as cast. About 0.195" long. Three will fit in a 45 Colt case.

[Bret4207]

And thus, another group buy is formed!

[yondering]

And thus, another group buy is formed!

Yeah, I'd be interested for sure.

[beagle]

Think that was a Dean Grennell article using H & Gs stackable wads. That was a good article and stirred a lot of interest for a while./beagle


Years ago, before I was allowed to even own a gun I subscribed to Guns and Ammo mag. (I think I even had to hide that from my step mother) There was a article on stackable wad cutters, they were produced to be stackable, I believe they were shot out of a .357, flat lead wafers, that had a bit of a tit in the middle of each I guess to aid in keeping them together a bit longer after they lef the barrel. If I recall correctly 4 or 5 of these wafers could be stacked in a .357 case

[gon2shoot]

Back in the early 70s (I think) folks were talking about stacking short wadcutters in a 357, I tried 100 or so rounds, and went back to my Keith SWC.:castmine:

[94Doug]

....and this is the same (.357) 75 grainer (Group Buy) that should be here any day, hopefully!

Doug

[Reloader06]

IIRC H&G made "thin" WC's for 38-41-44-45 cal. I have used the 38's and they are FUN! I have an article from Gun World (I think) were the writer took a model 10 (IIRC)and reamed the throats completely out and loaded 4 of the H&G's in a 357 Max case and called it the "Quadramax". Pretty neat idea I think.

Matt

P.S. I'm pretty sure the mold # is 333

[yondering]

I used hs45/70's method of putting gas checks in my mold to make some stackable wadcutters, and thought I'd share my results.

First I tried gas checks in the second driving bands (right below the crimp groove) of my Lee 452-250-RF mold, and got some nice thin wadcutters that weighed right about 110 grains with ww's. These have a lube groove and two driving bands.

I also tried the gas checks in the front driving bands of my 454424 mold for slightly thicker wadcutters weighing around 145 grains.

Both types were lubed with LLA, sized, and lubed again. I wiped the lube off the tops and bottoms so they wouldn't stick together when stacked.

I loaded 3 of the 110gr wc's per case, and 2 of the 145gr wc's per case, both types over 8gr of Unique. I didn't try to chronograph these, but the picture below shows three shots from the 3/110 load in a 2" board. These were fired at about 10 yards, with each shot at a different point of aim because I wanted to see how the wc's grouped together for each shot. It looks like they did pretty well; they are certainly close enough to be useful on snakes and other unwanted pests. They shot about 1" high compared to my standard load of a 260gr SWC at 1,050 fps.

Both the 3/110 and 2/145 loads penetrated the board and about 10" of wet wood mulch behind it. I noticed the 145 gr wc's left elongated holes, meaning they didn't fly straight. Interestingly, the 110gr wadcutters didn't do that.

I didn't recover any of the 110gr wc's, but recovered two of the 145gr wc's. Both were surprisingly expanded to about .60"! I didn't expect any expansion at all, and don't know if this occured from impacting the board, wood mulch, or each other. They were cast from air cooled WW's +2% tin. Forgot to take pictures of those, but here's the board shot with the 3/110 load.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/molds/IMG_1136.jpg

Edited to add: As neat as these loads were, it was a real pain trying to get the gas checks to sit level in the mold, and good mold fillout was a bad thing because the lead would start to flow around the check. A mold just for this purpose would be much easier. Also, the 110gr wadcutters were too short to work well with the tumble lube method, they were too flat to tumble very well. More traditional lubing methods would work better, I think.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

AHAH!

I've used arch punches for ever to make wads for shooting. I've melted lots of scrap lead sheeting, new and used, thick and thin .

How about if YOU used your arch punch to make variable thickness lead/mild alloy stackable washers from lead sheets? And maybe even cast your own thin muffins for sheet stock of the thickness you want? BvT

[Texasflyboy]

P.S. I'm pretty sure the mold # is 333

Yes, that is it.

The article everyone keeps referring to regarding the .38 Caliber stackable wadcutters was from a 1970's edition of Gun Digest. I have it. Here is the photo from the article:

http://hgmould.gunloads.com/molds/33_1.jpg

I used the photo for years to show the #333 mould as I didn't have a photo of an actual 333 mould until about two years ago. If I wasn't living out of boxes at the moment (I am in the middle of moving from NC to VA) I would dig out the article and pdf it here for those interested.

From what I remember about the article, it wasn't a a very good long distance load. Effective only to about 35-50 yards at best, accuracy was all over the place in .38 caliber.

With the Hensley & Gibbs #333, you can get two in a .38 Special case, and three in a .357 mag case. If I had to do it all over again I would use the gas check method posted here, as its a brilliant suggestion I intend to try as soon as my move is over and I can plug my monster pot back in.

[uncle joe]

Bill Jordan (not the realtree one the Texas ranger one) did this many years ago in a .357 magnum for a little 'extra' advantage in street fighting while a ranger. There should be an article somewhere with more details. I think he stacked three wadcutters in the same shell but I don't remember the power or the charge.
JE

[wills]

I think Bill Jordan was Border Patrol. He wasn’t a Ranger.

[Alchemist]

Another item mentioned in the article I read was that the author sized the bottom WC in the stack down to .356 to allow for the thickening of the brass and not bulge out the case. Seems like he was using an even shorter WC than the H&G...resembled a tuna can, with a thinner lube groove. It was indeed an interesting idea.

[gon2shoot]

I used to load 'triplex' loads in my .357,44mag, 45 auto. I would cut boolits and stack them. I made sure the weight of the loads matched some published weights. I used 2 slugs in the 45 and 3 in the others. all the slugs were diferent weights so the would fly different paths. worked good I would get 6" spread at 25 yrds.:drinks:


Shucks, I can scatter them that far shooting one at a time.[smilie=1:

[Lucky Joe]

I've been messing with these ever since I read Dean Grennell' article on his ABC's of Reloading. They have had a lot of bad press but I shoot more of these than any other cast boolit. A little lead and a little powder limited recoil about like a .22, one of my favorite hunts is for rats (Norway type). I also hunt squirrel, rabbits and pop the occasional grouse etc..

I put my time in shooting big boomers and still do from time to time but personally I really enjoy these, heck I even started hollow pointing them I call the hollow pointers the T-RAT.

These are from the Lyman 358101 it's a single cavity and for as much as I shoot my arm gets pretty tired so I am really looking forward to the GB 6 cavity. I run these through two Ruger Blackhawks 4 4/8" one S&W 686 6"and a Ruger Security Six 4".
Once you get them dialed in (and it takes time with this little boolit) and realize it's limitations it will have a place in your mould inventory.

What the heck it's all fun.
http://i30.tinypic.com/2uh0bck.jpg
http://i31.tinypic.com/sxkks3.jpg
http://i30.tinypic.com/raqc76.jpg

[Shotgun Luckey]

this sounds like a neat project to add to the "to do" list