Astra, Tokarev, or Nagant?

[Battis]

I've been looking at three handguns - Nagant revolver, Tokarev and yesterday an Astra M1921. I've handled a Nagant revolver, the Astra, but not the Tokarev. They're all in the same price range - approx. $300.
As far as reloading, available parts, durability, etc, any suggestions as to which would be a good purchase (if they're all in the same relative condition). This would not be used as a carry gun or an everyday shooter.
The advantage of the Astra is that I could buy it without using my C&R (it's in state).

[Hawgsquatch]

Classic Arms has the Beretta 92 police trades back in stock. Way better firearm at the same price point. If I had to choose from your three I like the Astra, I have had a few and all were solid and reliable.

[Battis]

I called them last week about a Tokarev but they won't ship to MA, even though I have a C&R. Any out of state handgun that I buy has to be on the C&R list. I do like the Astra out of the three, but then again I haven't handled the Tokarev.

[Dan Cash]

You don't mention what caliber for the Astra. If it is 9mm Parabellum, it is more effective and cheaper to shoot than the other two. If it is one of the exotic 9mms, I would opt for the Tokarev if you can get it one way or another. The Nagant is only a play toy these days.

[bouncer50]

I have all 3 of the handgun that you might buy. First the Nagant it has a very hard double action trigger pull. Ammo a little hard to find but you can make ammo from 32-20. Its also not real accurate. Now the Tokarev are great guns i prefer my Polish one. Ammo not really hard to find. You can make ammo from 223. Now the Astra i really love my Model 600, 400. Very well build and finnish and very accurate. Out of all of them i like my Astra the best. My friend call them ray-guns.

[Battis]

I gotta toss another handgun into the mix...
The Astra is south of me, about 35 minutes away (in MA). I remembered seeing some 9mm Largo ammo (that's what it shoots) at a store in ME, about a half hour north, so I went to check out the ammo. They have 25 boxes of the old ammo at $25.00 a box, but it looks like it might be Berdan primed. So, as I was pacing back and forth trying to decide whether to get the ammo and then the Astra, I noticed an old revolver in a glass display case. It was an Enfield Mod. 2 M1 DA only (break-open) in .38 S&W, made in 1940 (which makes it C&R eligible). It's in great shape and about a hundred bucks cheaper ($200). I like revolvers so I put it on 7 day hold so I can research it.

[cuzinbruce]

The Tokarev I had couldn't hit anything. Impossible to keep it on the paper at 25 yards with a rest. Russian WWII with a frosted bore. I didn't like the grip either. So off it went. No expeience with the others.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Another opinion (not conflicting!):

I own several Astra M-1921 (400) pistols. They have lots of favorable points including good balance and point, well made, very accurate. On the negative side, original military surplus ammo has become pretty difficult to find. Unless it was made very late in the 1960s or thereafter it will likely be corrosive and Berdan primed. However, if a reloader, Starline makes the brass. It is a blowback design and requires a very stiff recoil spring, so requires more effort to retract the slide than do most semi-autos. It has small sights that require good eyesight to see well. Since these went out of production shortly after WW II parts are not easy to find. Original extra magazines are hard to locate.

My Tokarevs are the Chinese version. You can tell there is a lot about it that was copied from the Colt semi-autos. It has good balance, points well, better sights, and whether in 7.65x25mm or 9x19mm there is a pretty good spread of ammo available. Easy disassembly and reassembly. Better parts availability. There have been the Russian, Romanian, Polish, and Chinese versions on the market, plus some lesser known versions like N. Korean, etc. Probably the most expensive are the Russian, best made are the Polish, best buy for the money the Romanian. Carries concealed well-- I know, you said that wasn't important.

The Nagant revolver, of which I have two, are interesting and fun. You can get ammo made specifically for them from Fiocchi and a couple of other European manufacturers, but it's not inexpensive. Original Russian military ammo is just about non-existent, but I think they are making some new stuff for export now. It is fun to reload for, .32-20 has been mentioned, but you can make ammo from a couple of other cartridge cases and perhaps find a conversion cylinder to use .32 Auto. To me they're about as ugly as a 1910 house with the plumbing on the outside walls, but when in the hand they are surprisingly well balanced and point well. They have the unique gas seal feature, easy access to the lock work, but very inconvenient method of extraction. The double action is usually terrible, but fired single action with the right ammo they can be pretty accurate. The long, bent firing pin on the hammer is just another of its odd features.

Now you throw an Enfield .38 S&W into the mix! If it is of Enfield manufacture it is well made. The Albion version is sturdy, but much poorer finish, and I've turned down many a chance to own one. The Enfield probably has the best sights of the lot, but you'll find that unless the action has been worked on the double action only trigger pull is a stiff one, maybe satisfactory for 15 yd. silhouette targets but lacking for 25 yd. beer cans or squirrels on branches. A plus, .38 S&W ammo is adequate for most purposes (not bears!), easy to find factory loads, easy to reload. I have never owned this version, but have owned the earlier single/double action Enfield which I liked very much and which had none of the handicaps of the double action only version, but if you go looking for one of those you'll likely be up in the $400+ bracket for a nice specimen.

My choice, if I couldn't have all of them, would be the Tokarev.

[Battis]

I almost bought a Nagant revolver in Montana last summer, but it can't be shipped to MA and I didn't have a C&R license at the time. When I got the license, the revolver was gone. I really don't want to buy one unseen. I have a Savage & North .36 cap and ball revolver that has a gas seal, which means nothing to my search but it's interesting that the 1860 S&N was pretty advanced.
I still haven't found a Tokarev locally but my son's friend had one and he said he liked it, but he sold it. Again, I'd like to see one before I buy it
The Astra is interesting - I might go back for a second look.
The Enfield is on hold for a week, which gives me time to research it and check it out more. I do like revolvers.

[cainttype]

The Astra would easily win out if I were choosing between those options. Very high quality machine work, and readily available reloading components make it easy for me, and I'm well-familiar with the others.
I'm not sure what you're interested in, but an outstanding option in that price range for just fun (if high-cap is OK) is the Star 30 MI... 9MMx19, but a real gem in a high-cap SA/DA design.

[RG1911]

On the one hand, I really like my Yugo Tokarev (M57) that has a 9-rd mag instead of the 8-rd as found on the other versions. On the other hand, it took a LOT of work to get the trigger pull down from off my RCBS scale to 5.25 pounds and still have reliable ignition. Not to mention tightening the slide-frame fit and the barrel bushing fit. The 7.62x25 cartridge is fun and powerful.

I don't have any experience with the Astra 1921/400. If parts are indeed difficult to find, I'd want to see what parts are available and lay in a small supply.

I will definitely second cainttype's comment about the Star Model 30M. Mine is comfortable and ridiculously accurate.

Cheers,
Richard

[rond]

I like my Tokarevs and with a 9mm barrel and spring it's an easy swap between 2 calibers. My Nagants are hard to shoot due to the heavy trigger, I make ammo out of .32-20 brass. The only Astra I have is a Cub in .22 short, it's a nice little gun.

[Battis]

I don't know much about the Tokarevs - can you explain swapping between 2 calibers? I located a Tokarev about two hours away that I might check out.

[bouncer50]

I don't know much about the Tokarevs - can you explain swapping between 2 calibers? I located a Tokarev about two hours away that I might check out. Yes they use to make swap out barrels for the Takarevs also use the same mags. Caliber 38 Super 9mm Luger and 7.62x25.

[Battis]

A local gunshop just got a Star 30 in, but the owner wants it for himself. He said they're a great gun. He also has a collection of Tokarevs but none for sale. He said the Astra is well made, too.

[bouncer50]

A local gunshop just got a Star 30 in, but the owner wants it for himself. He said they're a great gun. He also has a collection of Tokarevs but none for sale. He said the Astra is well made, too. The Star and Astra were the best of the Spainish made pistols. I also have a Star A-80 in 9mm a great and accurate pistol to. I am sorry to see the Astra and Star pass away

[Tackleberry41]

The nagant is not much more than a historical toy. Difficult at best to find ammo for, its pretty much reloads. Not exactly a hand cannon with a pressure rating so low. Tokarev isn't much easier to get ammo for. Most shops dont stock it, might find a couple boxes at a gun show. But pretty close to a handcannon with the velocity. Another handloaders gun, I run 90gr XTP in mine, and a 1911 I put a 7.62x25 barrel in. If you want cheap to shoot, and easy to find ammo for, it would be the Astra in 9mm.

[halfslow]

Lots of good comments above.
Here are mine.
I have/had all three.

The Nagant.
Old design, old steel.
Be wary of getting one which has been re-chambered.
Almost all have been re-arseneled.

Tokarev.
Nice little auto.
When ammo was cheap, fun to shoot, but you must clean for corrosive ammo.
New made ammo was not cheap.
9mm barrel and matching bushing was and still are available from time to time.
Sarco sells mags for $24.
Hated the added safety.

Astra 400(1921).
Funny looking pistol, but very well made and fitted.
Almost always come with pliers gouged bushing lock.
9mm model 600 barrel is a drop in replacement for the largo barrel.
It is 1/2 inch short, but the bushing is 1 inch long, so it works just fine.
Mags available from Sarco for $24.95.
Wolff sells partial and full spring kits.
All you ever wanted to know here:
http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Astra_/astra_.html
And here:
http://www.kegisland.com/astra-400-repair-tips.html



(http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Astra_/astra_.html)

[9.3X62AL]

I have 3 of the 4 handgun makes/models the O/P is considering. For any of these 4, it would help immensely to be a handloader--and being a bullet caster would help even more. I have no experience with the Astra 400.

Tokarev TT-30/33.......mine is a ChiCom Type 54, and it has been a good little pistol for me for 25+ years. Mine has at least 3K rounds through it. Its only faults are 1) it can be balky with softpoint or hollow-point bullets that have exposed soft lead at their tips, and 2) the grip shape tends (for me) to cause it to "crawl upward" in the shooting hand. A 1" section of bicycle inner tube installed on the grip solves that problem nicely. This pistol has a LOUD report, as do all of the high-velocity 30/32 caliber handguns. Real eardrum drills. The Tok is a VERY easily-concealed pistol for carry, owing to its flat aspect--sorta like a Colt/Browning 1903 on steroids.

M-1895 Nagant revolver--mine is a re-arsenaled Tula/1916. The double-action trigger stroke......is impossible. Fuggetaboutit. Single-action stroke is stiff but workable. Ammo derived from 32/20 brass does not shoot well in my revolver. I have 100 pieces of the now out-of-print Starline 7.62 x 38R brass, and several jackrabbits have learned to their permanent consternation that all of the gunrag drag about Nagant revolver inaccuracy should not be relied upon. Camp Perry? No. But for whacking evil rats, it a' do. Fiocchi loads actual full-length brass for this caliber, and it is Boxer-primed. The exaggerated crimp on the cartridges may not survive the firing sequence, dunno--I've only seem fired brass, 5 pieces. It survived. That over-zealous crimping isn't required in any event--if you get that far, send me a PM and I'll share some methods that work well for me. The Nagant revolver is a very different reloading prospect from many that we see routinely. Not especially difficult, but someone attempting the work would do well to have some experience in the ammocrafting hobby under his or her belt before proceeding.

Webley-Enfield DAO--for some reason, I just dote on this revolver and its cartridge. Like many British things, it appears to have been designed by a committee of dilettantes. The DAO trigger isn't S&W Masterpiece-grade, but it does all right. The 200 grain round-nose bullet (NEI #169A imitates one ideation of that service projectile) is longer (.810") than the case it fits into (.775"). The 200 grain bullet should not be prompted much past 700 FPS, and I use either 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco to get there. 150 grain-class bullets--the usual fare for the 38 S&W--shoot low in my revolvers meant for the 38/200. At the range I belong to, there are B-27 type iron targets hanged at 25 yards. The W/E can place every shot fired at these targets on the targets, and inside the 8-ring too. I wouldn't stand downrange to catch the bullets for recycling, either--those heavies whack the iron with considerably more vigor than the other 38 S&W loads I run (Lyman #358477 @ 700-725 FPS).

[Battis]

I called J&G Sales today about a Tokavev they're selling, but they will not ship to me in MA even with a C&R. They said I had to go through an FFL dealer in MA, but FFL dealers cannot take the gun in if it's not on the Mass compliant list.
I located a Tokarev 122 miles away in NH that I can buy with a C&R. It comes with a holster and a box of ammo for $325, which doesn't sound too bad.
The Astra is already in MA so I wouldn't even need my C&R - $300.
The Enfield is in ME and I can use my C&R - $220.
The Nagants are nowhere to be found around here.
I'm thinking that the Enfield would do the best with cast bullets (right?),and they seem to be the rarest or least available of the bunch (right?). Plus, and this is important, my wife would do better at the range with the Enfield.

[Bigslug]

They've all got their charms - it's a case of what floats your boat.

Tokarev - So classically Soviet. The Russkies knew they had a good thing in the few 1911's that were shipped over in Czarist times - the Tok is the basest version of the Browning tilt-barrel concept with some clever notions to make it cheaper to produce and more parts-interchangeable with less individual fitting. Kinda toasty round for cast - I expect you'd want to be gas-checking.

Astra - kinda cool in that it's one of the relatively few autoloaders NOT derived from JMB. Weird chambering and heavy recoil spring to haul back on.

Nagant - a cylinder that moves forward on cocking to seal the cylinder gap; a feature that is weird, unnecessary. . .and cool. I believe you can make do with one of the .32 S&W rounds.

.38/200 Webley/Enfield - The Enfield is a cheaper, DAO version. Good, solid, go-to-war gun. NOE makes the appropriate MKI mold in solid and HP configuration.

[9.3X62AL]

Sized to fit the grooves, Lyman #313249 or the Lee .311" 100 grain RN cast in 92/6/2 alloy shoot all right in the Tok, the CZ-52, and the C-96. Past 1400 FPS (CZ only!) I go jacketed mostly. I do have a Lyman 31 caliber mould--#311419 I think--weighing 92 grains and having a gas check. Not much work with these, but they did work.

None of these will be "easy" or cheap to find ammo for. 38 S&W is probably the least scarce concerning ammo, and lends itself well to reloading--once you figure out throat and groove diameters. My example has .362" throats and .361' grooves, and they vary between examples. A lot.

[dubber123]

Sized to fit the grooves, Lyman #313249 or the Lee .311" 100 grain RN cast in 92/6/2 alloy shoot all right in the Tok, the CZ-52, and the C-96. Past 1400 FPS (CZ only!) I go jacketed mostly. I do have a Lyman 31 caliber mould--#311419 I think--weighing 92 grains and having a gas check. Not much work with these, but they did work.

None of these will be "easy" or cheap to find ammo for. 38 S&W is probably the least scarce concerning ammo, and lends itself well to reloading--once you figure out throat and groove diameters. My example has .362" throats and .361' grooves, and they vary between examples. A lot.

Al, I read your "CZ" only remark. Have you read Clarks findings on the CZ Vs. Tokarev strength issue? If I recall, he found out the CZ's would consistently come unglued with a load that made the weaker LOOKING Tokarev yawn. The barrels on the CZ's let go at the cut outs for the rollers. I think he did in 3 or 4 in his testings, and all failed in a similar manner. It took an above standard load to make it happen, but I don't believe he ever managed to damage a Tokarev. If you want an eye raiser, ask him about his rechambered 9mm Tokarev some time. :shock:

[rond]

They've all got their charms - it's a case of what floats your boat.

Tokarev - So classically Soviet. The Russkies knew they had a good thing in the few 1911's that were shipped over in Czarist times - the Tok is the basest version of the Browning tilt-barrel concept with some clever notions to make it cheaper to produce and more parts-interchangeable with less individual fitting. Kinda toasty round for cast - I expect you'd want to be gas-checking.

Astra - kinda cool in that it's one of the relatively few autoloaders NOT derived from JMB. Weird chambering and heavy recoil spring to haul back on.

Nagant - a cylinder that moves forward on cocking to seal the cylinder gap; a feature that is weird, unnecessary. . .and cool. I believe you can make do with one of the .32 S&W rounds.

.38/200 Webley/Enfield - The Enfield is a cheaper, DAO version. Good, solid, go-to-war gun. NOE makes the appropriate MKI mold in solid and HP configuration.
The Nagant was a black powder round, the cylinder sealed the case in the barrel to prevent fouling of the action.

[9.3X62AL]

Dubber, I err on the side of caution. The CZ was purpose-built for intrepid loads, since the Czechs used service loads that ran 86 grain bullets to the 1700 FPS level. The Tokarev was supposed to keep those similar bullet weights in the 1400 FPS ballpark.

I did see Clark's texts. I witnessed some pretty insane stuff done with 1911A1-series pistols, also--fixture firing with double charges of Bullseye, many hundreds of same without apparent strain or upset. I guess my preferences don't run toward extreme intrepidity very often, and I do have some respect for the mechanisms. Given the butt design on the Tok pistols, I think the main challenge with higher loadings would be to keep the thing in your hands--its tapered grip aspect makes it want to creep up and out of your grasp under recoil.

Now, "performance".......the 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 is a SUPERB varmint caliber. Even at 1200-1250 FPS in the Broomhandle, it is a flat-shooting little monster that DOES IN rats and jackrabbits with aplomb. It would probably do for coyotes as well, though a song dog has yet to show up when I had one of these pistols afield. The Broomer's accuracy is rather poetic, but the Tok and the CZ do pretty good work. Now that cases in the neck & shoulder 30s are readily available, I don't so much mind losing some to the desert while hunting. Back in the day (1991 or so) when I had to invest about 2-3 minutes each into making cases from 9mm Win Mag brass, losing cases while afield gave you a little pause.

[Multigunner]

"The Nagant was a black powder round, the cylinder sealed the case in the barrel to prevent fouling of the action. "

I don't think the 7.62 Nagant revolver cartridge was ever a BP load, but I don't doubt the origin of the design may have been intended to prevent excessive fouling of BP revolvers. IIRC there were a couple of BP era gas seal revolver designs with prevention of BP cylinder gap leakage being the major concern. One was a Carbine and the gas seal was to prevent gas from the cylinder gap scorching the sleeve of the arm supporting the fore end, a very common problem with the Colt and Remington revolver carbines and rifles. I don't think the BP gas seal designs I've seen were entirely efficient and did not have the extended case mouth that completed the seal.

[dubber123]

Dubber, I err on the side of caution. The CZ was purpose-built for intrepid loads, since the Czechs used service loads that ran 86 grain bullets to the 1700 FPS level. The Tokarev was supposed to keep those similar bullet weights in the 1400 FPS ballpark.

I did see Clark's texts. I witnessed some pretty insane stuff done with 1911A1-series pistols, also--fixture firing with double charges of Bullseye, many hundreds of same without apparent strain or upset. I guess my preferences don't run toward extreme intrepidity very often, and I do have some respect for the mechanisms. Given the butt design on the Tok pistols, I think the main challenge with higher loadings would be to keep the thing in your hands--its tapered grip aspect makes it want to creep up and out of your grasp under recoil.

Now, "performance".......the 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 is a SUPERB varmint caliber. Even at 1200-1250 FPS in the Broomhandle, it is a flat-shooting little monster that DOES IN rats and jackrabbits with aplomb. It would probably do for coyotes as well, though a song dog has yet to show up when I had one of these pistols afield. The Broomer's accuracy is rather poetic, but the Tok and the CZ do pretty good work. Now that cases in the neck & shoulder 30s are readily available, I don't so much mind losing some to the desert while hunting. Back in the day (1991 or so) when I had to invest about 2-3 minutes each into making cases from 9mm Win Mag brass, losing cases while afield gave you a little pause.

I totally understand not pushing the envelope without good reason, sometimes it bites you in the keister. I am however very much a "give credit where it's due" kinda guy, and based on Clarks experiments, which I notice nobody seems keen on replicating, indicate you are in fact safer pushing the power factor with a Tokarev Vs. a CZ. I Don't own either in the 7.62x25, but I respect his research. He's an interesting fellow to converse with :)

His rechambered 9mm Tokarev does have my interest. He has tried unsuccessfully to wear it out or blow it up, and it sounds like it is making serious power with 150+ grain boolits. As you noted, it's biggest drawback is that it is physically painful to shoot at the power levels it is producing. I could see a slightly tamed down version as very useful as a field gun. Some day..

[Battis]

This is my Savage & North .36 that has a gas seal (1860). I try to shoot it once a year.





182509

[Texas by God]

The Astra 1921/400 9mm Largo is a wonderfully built very accurate pistol- especially with .357" j- words. The Tok is accurate& powerful and awkward. No experience with the Nagant. I would buy Enfields all day for $200 - tough and accurate with bullets that fit. The machine work on the Astras rival any Colt, S&W, or Luger ever made. That would be my pick. Best, Thomas.

[bouncer50]

The Astra 1921/400 9mm Largo is a wonderfully built very accurate pistol- especially with .357" j- words. The Tok is accurate& powerful and awkward. No experience with the Nagant. I would buy Enfields all day for $200 - tough and accurate with bullets that fit. The machine work on the Astras rival any Colt, S&W, or Luger ever made. That would be my pick. Best, Thomas. I have to agree with you on the Astra 400 the couple i have is bore size 358 and 359. With the right size cast bullets i can hit bowing pins at 50 yards. Take one apart and look at the machine work on them. They were made by expert on fitting and finnish bluing. I wonder in today price it would cost to make one.

[robertbank]

Of the three the OP mentioned I would be chasing down the 92 Police trade ins mentioned by Hawgsquatch if they were available to me. Running not walking! You get a proven design, excellent track record, available parts and a heck of a deal.

The three mentioned are interesting examples of boat anchors in my mind. Lots of things go bang and I guess they certainly do that. We see lots of Toks up here and the remnants of their use all over our pistol bays. Ammo is cheap, the guns are cheap and most shoot them until their 1K rd case of ammo runs dry and then you seldom see them in their owners hands again. We get unused Chinese versions as well as Russian examples. Folks import them and folks buy them so they must be useful. If the Russians thought the Tok was a close copy of the remarkable 1911 then they must have high praise for the East German Trabant another design of equal significance.

Take Care

Bob

[wonderwolf]

I have a Nagant revolver, Like others have mentioned and at great pain it does me to admit, it is a novelty unless you were running a trapline and couldn't afford a 32-20 revolver or .22 or some such. I reload for mine and it shoots very well but I wouldn't give any more than the $100 I paid for it to be honest. I purchased mine not too long ago, not sure what the demand is on them these days.

http://wonderwolfs.blogspot.com/2011/09/reloading-for-762x38r-nagant-revolver.html

http://wonderwolfs.blogspot.com/2011/11/reloading-for-762x38r-update.html


CZ-52's are the only other thing I have experiance with really, great design except for the firing pin issue (don't dry fire, you'll break them)...

A police/armored car S&W 10 or 65, 64 trade in is much better for your money, a Beretta 92 is good as well but more restrictive it sounds like?

Good luck!

1911 would also be a good option?

[birch]

If you decide on the tokarev, I highly suggest you look for a compensator in place of the factory barrel bushing. The first one I shot was done up with the compensator, so when I got mine, I ordered one from SARCO. It actually works since there is so much gas escaping. It also comes a bit oversized so you have to take a little metal off with file and kratex wheel. If you take your time, you can get a much better fit than the standard bushing.

[Dutchman]

Ok I gotta get in on this as I've owned all 3.

1895 Nagant revolver: I agree, novelty. Better than no gun at all.

Astra 400: 9x23 Bergman-Bayard (aka Largo = long). Archaic firearm. Spare parts issue. Tends to be mis-used and abused by shooting 9x19 Luger ammo. Blow-back design = negative.

Tokarev TT33: forged frame & slide. Excellent Browning hybrid taken from Browning FN1903 pistol and locked breech Colt (Browning) 1911 pistol. Amazing caliber 7.62x25 is powerful and versatile.

You would be a FOOL not to choose the Tokarev as a belt gun, trail gun, etc.

Dutch

[Battis]

I've ruled out the Nagant even though I like novelty guns and I have a lot of 32-20 brass for my Winchester Self Loader 32 (which has the blowback action of the Astra). Finding a Nagant in this area is like finding a Trump supporter, and having one shipped here is difficult. I like the Astra but replacement parts would be hard to find. I located a Tokarev 122 miles away, and I almost made the trip Saturday, but the seller wants cash only, which sends up red flags. Even though I buy a handgun with a C&R, I still have to register it in MA as a regular handgun.
The Enfield Mod 2 38 S&W is looking good based on its low price, condition, ease of reloading, plus I trust the dealer that's selling it.

In regards to the Astra - what would I look for in checking its condition, other than the obvious damage? Are there any typical parts that break? Numrich does have parts. My local gun store has a bunch of older ammo.
I do like that gun.
I found this site - pretty good info:
http://www.kegisland.com/astra-400-repair-tips.html

[Texas by God]

Ok I gotta get in on this as I've owned all 3.

1895 Nagant revolver: I agree, novelty. Better than no gun at all.

Astra 400: 9x23 Bergman-Bayard (aka Largo = long). Archaic firearm. Spare parts issue. Tends to be mis-used and abused by shooting 9x19 Luger ammo. Blow-back design = negative.

Tokarev TT33: forged frame & slide. Excellent Browning hybrid taken from Browning FN1903 pistol and locked breech Colt (Browning) 1911 pistol. Amazing caliber 7.62x25 is powerful and versatile.

You would be a FOOL not to choose the Tokarev as a belt gun, trail gun, etc.

Dutch

Whoa there Dutch- 9mm Largo is nothing to sneeze at. I have carried a 400 Astra and a Tokarev many a mile afield and fool that I am I would choose the Astra every time.

[Tackleberry41]

The nagants have pretty much dried up, at one time the really nice ones could be gotten all day for $99. Now the few I see are closer to $300. Using 32-20 brass will not make it much of a target gun. They really need that funky case as there really no throat in the cylinder. It rare to see a box of nagant ammo for sale, and most is the corrosive Russian stuff. And not much more than a plinker due to the low pressure limit on the ammo.

Tokarevs seem to have dried up to, price has gone up a bit since I bought mine. And back then you could get really nice ones, all thats left now seems to be the 'gunsmith' specials nobody wants. its a cool gun, really loud, not seen an issue with recoil, due to the low bullet weight. But can run cast pretty easy. I use the same 90gr Lee slug in my tokarev, nagant, and 32 S&W. They can be hotrodded, but not in a CZ or Tokarev. Theres no way to put a heavier spring in those guns, wolff offered one for the tokarev at one point, but now its factory weight. They fling brass pretty far, so more power would just batter the gun.

Seems like a number of economy or used guns could be had that were way easier to get ammo or parts for.

[Dutchman]

Whoa there Dutch- 9mm Largo is nothing to sneeze at. I have carried a 400 Astra and a Tokarev many a mile afield and fool that I am I would choose the Astra every time.

Not knocking the caliber. Just the gun.

Dutch

[bouncer50]

Ok I gotta get in on this as I've owned all 3.

1895 Nagant revolver: I agree, novelty. Better than no gun at all.

Astra 400: 9x23 Bergman-Bayard (aka Largo = long). Archaic firearm. Spare parts issue. Tends to be mis-used and abused by shooting 9x19 Luger ammo. Blow-back design = negative.

Tokarev TT33: forged frame & slide. Excellent Browning hybrid taken from Browning FN1903 pistol and locked breech Colt (Browning) 1911 pistol. Amazing caliber 7.62x25 is powerful and versatile.

You would be a FOOL not to choose the Tokarev as a belt gun, trail gun, etc.

Dutch I believe the Astra 400 Largo was miss used using 38 SUPER not 9mm Luger. The Astra 600 was made for the 9mm Luger. The German were impress with the Astra 400, 600, and 300 models they bought quite of few of them during WW11. Their no question that the Tokarev is a great gun. But the Astra and Star made great guns too. I all way will have a love for the Astra 400 and 600.

[Texas by God]

Not knocking the caliber. Just the gun.

Dutch

To each his own. Will you agree the Astra is better machined? More accurate?

[Dutchman]

In today's vintage military handgun market you won't find an Astra 400 or 600 in as good condition as the Tokarev TT33 for a price you'd want to pay. My Tok is Polish and was new/unfired. You have to look at the practicality of the matter not just which gun you like better or which one is made better. My 1895 Nagant was from Century Arms for $50 and its very nice condition. The market is heavier with Tokarevs than Astras.

Dutch

[Texas by God]

The OP has the choices now and asked our opinions so we gave them freely. A $300 Astra close beats a $325 Tok a long drive away. He indicated good condition on both. Astras rule, Tokarevs drool- and Dutch called me a fool....Best, Thomas.

[bouncer50]

The OP has the choices now and asked our opinions so we gave them freely. A $300 Astra close beats a $325 Tok a long drive away. He indicated good condition on both. Astras rule, Tokarevs drool- and Dutch called me a fool....Best, Thomas. I believe the reason for not seeing a lot of Astra 400 and 600 for sale. The people who own them like them. The talk of the Astra being a straight blow back design. Well i have a H&K VP-70 9mm that was made in the 1970s and it a straight blow back design. So why would H&K make a gun like that.?

[Battis]

but the Enfields are cool...

[TCLouis]

Just me, but I don't see 300 bucks for a Nagant.
Surely there is a cheaper source.

[Battis]

I got the serial number of the Astra - 72XXX, which, from what I read, indicates it was made in 1937 -1938.
Dutchman posted that they might have been abused by using 9X19 Ammo. I also found this info:

When 9mm Largo ammunition was hard to find in quantity shooters regularly fired other cartridges such as the 9mm Luger, 9mm Steyr, 9mm Browning Long, etc in their 9mm Largo firearms. Many dealers and distributors also claimed the firearms would fire all of these and more. This however is not a prudent practice to engage in. The Astra 400, like all pistols firing straight walled cartridges, headspaces on the mouth of the cartridge. When a cartridge shorter than the 23mm of the 9mm Largo is used, the cartridge case cannot headspace against the end of the chamber. This leaves only the extractor to hold the cartridge case against the breechface allowing the firing pin to impact the primer. This causes excessive wear and stress on the extractor, too much freebore (the distance from the bullet to the beginning of the rifling), and scoring of the chamber walls. The result of these abnormalities can result in broken/misshapen extractors, poor accuracy, and the inability to chamber and extract correct size cases.

So, how can you tell if the gun has been abused by using the wrong ammo by looking at it in the store? (if I don't take it apart).

[robertbank]

I went looking to see what unfired or lightly used Russian Toks are selling for these days. Turns out folks are getting them for $175Cdn or $130 US. I wonder why the price difference. There seems to be no shortage of surplus Toks available to import. Some of the suppliers are getting unfired examples out of Russia. They are crude guns IMHO with less than stellar sights shooting one heck of a hot round. Personally I think they are a boutique gun. If they had decent sights and were somewhat manageable for me I would agree they would be ok for a bush gun but I have a early Norinco 1911 that I know I can shoot well enough loaded with enough cartridge to delay to advances of most things I might run into.

I still like the Police trade in option.

Take Care

Bob

[Battis]

The police trade in would be good but here in MA, if it's not on The List, and not already in MA, it has to be C&R eligible.

[robertbank]

Man your gun laws in some States are as weird as ours are. What is C&R eligible mean?

Bob

[Battis]

Basically, guns have to be at least 50 years old, in their original configuration or fit into certain other criteria to be on the C&R (Curio & Relic) list. Out of state guns that I cannot buy even through an FFL dealer can be shipped right to my door with the C&R license (if the seller will ship to MA, which many won't).
The license (Federal) cost $30 for three years. There are some downsides to it.

The List in MA is the Mass compliant list. If a gun is not on that list, and not in the state, it cannot come into the state. You can buy a gun in state, but once it leaves MA, it cannot come back. MA Dept of Safety told me that MA does not recognize a C&R license, but the ATF told me they have to.
I recently bought a M1917 S&W .45, made in 1918, at a store in NH. Without the C&R, I could not have bought that gun. I then had to register it as a regular handgun.
Yeah, it's all messed up.

[Texas by God]

When the Astras came over again in the late 80's I had a couple of 1921/400s. One would feed and fire .380, 9mm Luger,9mm Long, 9mm Steyr, 38 ACP, and 9mm Bayard. I ordered new recoil springs for both and a chamber bushing for one to headspace the 9mm Luger correctly. I went through 500 Egyptian surplus rounds(hot) and thousands of rounds of commercial ammo & reloads with that one. It's still in the family and once it broke a firing pin- but still worked. Not that hard to find parts on the INT. Looking closely with magnified light 2x lens I can detect no barrel damage. YMMV. Best, Thomas.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

182645
Click to enlarge.

Well, I like mine! Yes, many (not all) will fire many of the cartridges listed (not all) and it is somewhat an individualistic thing as to which will perform well with what ammo. In this photo the top left is a 600/43 and was made for 9mm. My thought on that would be that if one wants to shoot 9mm Luger and likes the Astra they should ideally get the one specifically chambered for it. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with the 9mm Largo round, especially if you're a handloader. Once upon a time CCI Blazer made ammo in that caliber including some nice hollow point ammo, but I guess they didn't sell enough to continue it. But one doesn't have to hotrod anything, just load them to standard specs with some XTP bullets for defense, or some nice cast boolits at a moderate load for plinking and pests. There was a time that the M-1921 (400) took most of the European matches for accuracy, but they must have been young Spaniards with keen eyesight, because the sights are small. Nevertheless, on a nice, sunny day mine will shoot quite well for me. At one time there was a company named Federal Armaments Co. (FAC) that I haven't seen mentioned or listed for awhile, and they had some 9mm Luger barrels made for the M-1921 model which were a drop in (well--push in and turn?) replacement. I had (still have) a 1921 with a poorer condition barrel that shot fairly well, but I bought two of the 9mm Luger barrels and replaced that one with a nice new barrel. It did not shoot as well as with the original, so I changed back. They also made--actually they were made in S. Korea--some new barrels to made the Star Model A into a B, changing the caliber from 9 Largo to 9 Luger. A much superior weapon to any mentioned here so far, but not on your shopping list.

Shifting gears to the Tokarev, the 7.62x25mm cartridge is a hottie. It is a nicer experience in the CZ-52. But I'll stay with my original assessment made a couple of pages back, that, considering just the 4 pistols we were considering, the Tokarev would be my choice. Also, by the way, obtainable in 9mm Luger and probably the better option. But, for one familiar with Browning pistol designs, the Tokarev is a natural, easily concealed, effective round, etc., etc. And, they are available brand new in the Yugo produced version from Sportsman's Guide at very reasonable prices. If you don't get their catalog already ask for one, and they'll never give you any peace after that.

It's interesting that you seem inclined toward the Enfield DAO revolver, which would certainly be my last choice, but which has certainly gotten its share of approval from respected posters. Maybe you'll get a good one. Here's a short story for you: Years ago a fellow came into my shop with the DA/SA Enfield. It was a nice, high quality gun in .38 S&W made in the '30s that he had shot so much he wore it out internally. He wanted it repaired, and I looked and looked for the parts, even in Canada where, having been part of the Empire, I thought I might locate some. None to be had. Since they resemble the DAO version so closely I thought that perhaps I might be able to convert his revolver to a DAO since there seemed to be a lot of those parts available. The customer was willing, so I purchased the parts but found to my consternation that they were quite different. But after studying it for awhile I decided to attempt the conversion and "C" clamped the similar parts together and filed away, making the new parts as similar to the old parts as possible. It actually worked, and I'm kind of proud of it, as I've never heard of anyone else doing it. The customer seemed happy, test fired it, paid up and went home, but came back about two weeks later and said that he used it for bedside protection and his wife (age 79--he was 82) was unable to operate the DA satisfactorily. I could do it with either hand, as could he, but she couldn't. There's more--but that illustrates a point--if I could remember what it was. Seriously though, I've never seen one I liked.

But then again, I've never seen an Astra with a cracked frame like is shown in that Astra repair link posted earlier in the thread, nor have I ever seen a Swedish Mauser with a category 3 barrel. Doesn't mean that they aren't out there, just uncommon, so I'd look closely for that defect.

[Battis]

Now that is a collection...
I'm heading to the store that has the Enfield to recheck it out. That store has 25 boxes of vintage 9mm Largo ammo ($25 per box). The Astra is at another store. I'll have to Zen it or feng shui it or whatever you do to let the gun decide. Geez, Trump is picking a cabinet easier than I'm picking an old gun.

The new Yugo Tokarevs probably aren't on the Mass compliant list. Check this out:
http://www.fsguns.com/fsg_information.html

[9.3X62AL]

Der G--

Regarding the 38/200 cartridge and its platform......it is no "wonder cartridge", by any means. Like many things British, the platform looks like it was designed by committee and the ammunition specs are a confirmed afterthought. But, like helicopters--which aren't supposed to actually fly--they manage to not only function but also to do so successfully. BruceB once told me of a Canadian LE organization that fielded the 38/200 ammo for service use for a time after WWII. The officers were none too impressed when they saw the slow-moving heavy 38 caliber bullets carom off slanted car windshields and rear windows more often than not.

I don't carry most of my "toy guns" like the Webley-Enfield in harm's way, though it has gone along for varmint strafings from time to time. Those 202 grain NEI #169A castings do a jackrabbit no good at all. Chance has not enabled a shot at a coyote (yet), but at some point that convergence of means and opportunity will occur with either the W/E or the S&W M&P along for the occasion. That S&W rollergun groups bullets into roughly half the dispersion diameter of the W/E, FWIW. That thing can SHOOT.

[dubber123]

I went looking to see what unfired or lightly used Russian Toks are selling for these days. Turns out folks are getting them for $175Cdn or $130 US. I wonder why the price difference. There seems to be no shortage of surplus Toks available to import. Some of the suppliers are getting unfired examples out of Russia. They are crude guns IMHO with less than stellar sights shooting one heck of a hot round. Personally I think they are a boutique gun. If they had decent sights and were somewhat manageable for me I would agree they would be ok for a bush gun but I have a early Norinco 1911 that I know I can shoot well enough loaded with enough cartridge to delay to advances of most things I might run into.

I still like the Police trade in option.

Take Care

Bob

If you have access to a milling machine and some hand tools, it's not too hard to improve on a Tokarev. I have a 9mm version, and I milled the rear sight to the bottom of the dumb "U" notch and re-cut a properly sized square notch. I then shortened the front to the appropriate height. I serrated both and re-blued. I then took a pass at the sear, and combined with a spring swap arrived at a reliable 4ish pound trigger pull in short order. It has so far proven to be the most accurate cast boolit 9mm I have seen, not too bad for a $200 gun. They are what they are, but that doesn't make them bad either :)

[Der Gebirgsjager]

9.3X63AL : Good day to you, Sir. I've never owned one of those British mechanical marvels, although I do have one each Webley .45 and .38. They are, of course, DA/SA, and on the rare occasion when I've fired them it's been exclusively SA. I have read, many times, about the British logic for the .38/200 and that it proved to be effective.....enough. Of course, since WW II, with the advent of body armor, targets have hardened. Like you, I have a collection of "toys" that I would never consider for serious work unless it came down to a choice of one of them or a sharp stick. So I truly do understand how one can enjoy using something for sport or play. I do not doubt your proficiency with the Enfield DAO .38 S&W.

I think one of the last shooting incidents in my agency before I moved on in life was an incident of a fellow who hijacked a woman in her car and had her drive up a mountain highway where he was intercepted by two officers coming in the opposite direction who blocked the two lane roadway with their cruiser. A pursuing cruiser came up from the rear, so the bad guy had no where to go and threatened to shoot the woman, whom like I said was the driver. He was in the passenger seat and an officer shot him dead with one shot through the windshield from a distance of about 3 ft. using a .357 mag. The officer later said that his biggest fear was that the curvature of the windshield would deflect the bullet's path, and if it should penetrate it might hit the driver, but instead there was just a nice, round little hole that went completely through where it was intended to go. So, as you have observed, more is usually better.

[Battis]

I'm a revolver guy. When I was a cop, we first carried the S&W .357 K frame. I liked it. Then we switched to the Sig 9mm with 16 rounds and I did not like it that much. After I left, they went with the Sig .357, which made more sense to me.
Anyhoo, I went to the store in Maine and checked out the 9mm Largo ammo. It was dated 1948. Then I rechecked out the Enfield. It called out to me. So I left with the Enfield and a set of Lee dies.
A salesman at the store in Maine told me that they get in quite a few Tokarevs, maybe 20 a year. No Astras in awhile, but I know where there's one that'll probably sit there for some time.
I'm a cap and ball collector, so the Enfield, or any gun that takes a self contained cartridge, is a state of the art modern technical wonder.
Thanks for all the info and suggestions.

[Kestrel4k]

Good thread & very interesting reading on the surplus 'classics' - where the M92 is the new kid on the block, lol. :-)

I have one of the It. Police trade-in M92's and can certainly vouch for them. Mine is well-broken-in and is up with my S&W revolvers for smoothness. Definately a bargain at $300.

My only other candidate is a 1944 Nagant M1895 revolver, with a new bbl / pristine bore (from the re-arsenaling as stated earlier). Prices have climbed since the $99 imports; I worked hard to find this one for $207 shipped ~1.5yrs ago. I would be surprised to find a good one for significantly less than $300 these days.

Yes they are novelties certainly; 'Ammo to Go' had a sale on the brass-cased PPU @ $20/50 in April 2015, so picked up a 1000-rnd case. The ammo isn't that accurate (~2" @10 yds), probably because the jackets are self-shedding lol - I find bits of them in the suppressor after each shooting session. :-)

I do prefer HBWC's in general, and for this platform in particular. It looks like Speer is the last company to be making those, @ ~$84/1000 so I'm set pretty well there.

Certainly a range toy - but my gunsmith has said that it's the quietest suppressed firearm he's ever shot. BTW the PPU chronos at ~645 fps so they're certainly much lighter than the original Soviet ammo.

[robertbank]

Two stories about the Wobbly Webley. The Edmonton City Police carried them up until 1967. The Bank of Montreal on 18th Avr was robbed. As the BG's exited the Bank up drove two of Edmonton's finest. !2 rounds later the BG's car was scene speeding off with a few dents in the trunk and lead smears on the rear window. A few months later the CEO of the Bank had a brief but one way conversation wit the mayor. It wasn't long after the Edmonton City Police were armed with Model 10 38spl's, the same as was current with the RCMP at the time. I had one for a time purchased for $100 from the Edmonton Police. It was virtually NIB. Traded it a few years ago for my Longbranch.

My Uncle, then a Captain in the SA Tank Regiment carried a Webley in the 38S&W for the drive through Normandy, Belgium, Holland then Germany. He told me he never had the revolver out of it's holster but did have some wear on his 75MM gun attached to his Sherman tank. He said none of the officers could hit a damn thing with their revolvers which probably related to how much time and effort was spent with the guns. Maj. Currie was seen carrying one in his hand when he was winning the VC at the closing of the Falais Gap in 1944. One of Uncle Newts tanks was in the picture taken at the time of Maj. Currie taking the surrender of a column of German troops. He had at the time a handful of infantry and the SATR tanks.

I think generally the handgun was not considered of much use at the time. This may account for the Brits going with the cartridge in the first place. The Webleys, Smiths and Colt 1911's were all issued to Cdn troops back in the day. I am not sure if the Inglis ever got to Europe before wars end, it may have.

Sounds like I should re-access my view on the Tok. They are cheap enough up here and with a little work.

Take Care

Bob

[Texas by God]

I had 2 Enfields- I liked them both. HBWC is your friend if you don't have a proper mould for the larger .38 S&W bore. The front blade is pinned so you can replace it to adjust elevation. On one revolver I cut a SA notch in the hammer so you could start the hammer back with your finger then thumb cock it. It is accurate enough and my brother still has it. I have no idea where the other one went but I bought it from Martin B Retting in California for $30 in 1985.

[WRideout]

The Enfield sounds like the best deal all around. You are a lucky guy that your wife likes to shoot; you should capitalize on that. I own a Romanian Tok and a Nagant, and like them both for different reasons. I can handload the Nagant with 5.5 gr Unique and the Lee 100 gr boolit, which is plenty adequate. It is the only pistol I have which can reliably hit a piece of notebook paper at 100 yards. The triggers are genuinely terrible, but that just goes with the territory. The Tok is a little finicky to handload, but when you get it figured out, it isn't too bad. I had to remove and toss the add-on safety; the gun wouldn't function with it in place.

Wayne

[Battis]

I slugged the bore and it's right around .360. I have brass on the way and I'll probably try some .358 cast bullets until I get larger ones. Western Bullets has some .360 -200 gr bullets.
I've never seen so many stamps and markings on a gun. It's hard to tell what's a serial number, assembly number, inspector's number, or whatever. The salesman at the store, someone I trust, thinks it might be an arsenal rebuild or refurbish, which is fine for me - I want a shooter. The bore is really good, everything locks up nice and tight. The internals aren't rusty and surprisingly clean.
If this gun could talk...I'd probably have a hard time understanding its English accent.

[flounderman]

sportsmans guide has a zastava, model 88A, 9mm, for 228.00, buyers club price, with 2 magazines, I would buy that before I would buy any of the ones mentioned.

[Battis]

There's a lot of guns I'd like to buy, but, like I said, if they're not on the C&R list or the Mass compliance list, I'm out of luck.
If you want to see how bad the gun laws are in MA, check this out:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2016/08/31/healey-launches-gun-safety-investigation/EqmsKiAIeweTWxbuk0NKNO/story.html

[9.3X62AL]

We have similar stupidities to deal with in California, Battis.

[Battis]

The C&R helps a lot. The store in Maine would not sell me an 1850s pinfire revolver because I'm from MA, and the gun uses a cartridge. They'd sell it to me with a C&R. But, they'll sell me any rifle they have, though they do background checks on every sale that involves a cartridge gun, including an 1868 Trapdoor 50-70 that I bought.
But the other day, with the C&R purchase, they sold the Enfield to me, bagged it and I was on my way with no background check.
Brass is another problem - the Big Boys - Cabelas, Midway, etc will not ship new, unprimed brass to MA.

[dubber123]

sportsmans guide has a zastava, model 88A, 9mm, for 228.00, buyers club price, with 2 magazines, I would buy that before I would buy any of the ones mentioned.

That is what I have. The trigger is atrocious out of the box, and the sights are not much better. Both are pretty easily remedied if you are semi handy. Mine is the best cast boolit 9mm I have ever shot.