Let's talk .358 molds

[wv109323]

I would guess over time the .38 Spec. and .45 ACP bullets are the most common cast boolits.
I am interested in the potentially most accurate bullet for a .38 Spec. target load of around 700-800 FPS. I want at least a four cavity mold. Firearm is a S&W Model 14 with a 6" barrel. I shoot NRA Distinguished Revolver so I need 50 yard accuracy. The bullets is required to be 158 gn. SWC or RN.
I bought a custom 158-SWC. The mold has one grease groove and two crimping grooves. The mold casts a beautiful bullet but it is not accurate. My thoughts are the bullet is nose heavy. The old Keith bullet(no.51) was one grease groove and one crimp groove.
There are some designs with two grease grooves and one crimping groove.
What are your thoughts on the optimum bullet profile for the .38 Spec?
I can get the RCBS 158RN to shoot. That bullet has one grease groove and one crimping groove. My guess is the CG is toward the rear of the bullet. Do you think a heavy base bullet is more accurate?

[reddog81]

The only RN 38 mold I own is a Lyman 358311 and it is very accurate. My most accurate SWC is actually the LEE 140 in 6 cavity but it sounds like you need something heavier than that.

[gunarea]

WV109323
Shoot the slug that the game was designed around. I'll go out into my cave today and see if I can find the 358421 mould for you. Mine is a double cavity but is an original. Trick I found that worked for me was to seat the top driving band flush with top of the brass. The other thing which must be accounted for is the low velocity pressure that necessitates a soft alloy for proper obturation. Powder selection becomes critical at very low levels with initial pressure spike needed. Small charges become location sensitive and can be easily checked with chrono work. Your observation on heavy base effectiveness is lost on full wadcutters which testing has shown to work in either direction. The 158 swc is a legendary projectile capable of great accuracy but needs a special diet. Cast your slug from a very soft alloy and use 3.2 gr of Red dot to yield a velocity around 750fps. Note here, powder forward and powder back have a velocity difference of around 35fps. You may find the mould in hand will tighten the group significantly with these subtle changes. Let us know how you make out.
Roy

[Artful]

I second that the 358311 158 grn RN is one of the most accurate at 50 yards that I shoot.

[fecmech]

I have shot the H&G #39 RN for many years. I believe it is very similar to Lyman 358311 and it is my 100 yd ram load for Hunters pistol silhouette in my Model 14 S&W. Here are 3 groups I shot off the bench@100yds a few years back. Avg for 3, 6 shot groups was 3".
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22896&d=1276549398

[rintinglen]

358-342 160 grain boolit. Very accurate,
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/N.O.E._Bullet_Moulds_360-160-WC_(PB).Jpg

[gwpercle]

After much testing, my best results have come from the Lyman #358432 160 grain boolit.
This design has been discontinued by Lyman but is available from NOE in their 360-160-WC recreation. This boolit , sized .358 loaded over 2.8 grains of Bullseye is the accuracy winner in my guns.
Fired from a model 64 with a red dot sight at 25 yards I shot a group of 15 shots that was 1 inch wide and 1 1/2 inches tall . If I hold steady it will shoot groups like this regularly, no other boolit or powder combination will better this load at 25 yards .
Gary

[paul h]

Why can't the bullet be an ogival wadcutter? I'd say the Mihec 359640 or similar designs would likely be the most accurate.

SWC's can be very accurate if everything is properly aligned between the cylinder and forcing cone, but that square transition if the shoulder can through off accuracy if everything isn't aligned.

If I were going to design a custom mold for target work at 700-800 fps I'd take a full wadcutter body to take up as much of the case capacity as possible and hence aid in the powder burning for the lower velocity loads, and then add a short (~.25" long) round nose section to help align the bullet with the forcing cone as it enters the forcing cone. I'd also go with two smaller lube grooves than one large one. I think the smaller grooves help fillout of the mold and the designs seem to be a bit more accurate.

[wv109323]

fecmech,
would you care to give the loads you shot those groups with. I can't make them out from the pic.
I settled on 3.5 g. of WST or 3.3g of BE.

[fecmech]

would you care to give the loads you shot those groups with.
The load shot there is 4.2/Bullseye which is listed as a max std pressure load in the 3rd Lyman Cast Bullet handbook. It clocks right at 900 fps out of my 6" gun. I have fired well north of 10K of these through this gun with no ill effects but it may have more recoil than you care for in your application.

[dubber123]

358311 if it must be a RN or SWC. It was one of the most accurate for me at 50 yards from my 6" M14. It easily beat any wadcutter at 50 yards, and I tried a bunch. Distance is not a friend to wadcutters.

[GWM]

I too second the Ideal/Lyman 358311. It has always been the most accurate for me.

[wv109323]

Fecmech,
I found accuracy with an NEI mold 158 SWC with 4.6 gn. of WW231. It had quite a bit of recoil but it shot 11 rounds into a 1 5/8" group at 50 yards. Of course that is out of a Ransom Rest.The trouble was I ran out of WW231. The mold is a 2 cavity with very short handles, and your hands get hot from the pot. I think you are on to something with the higher velocity or as someone else mentioned a softer alloy for obturation. I may end up with a 50 yard load and a lighter 25 yard load for timed and rapid fire. I don't want to do that, I was trying to get one load and crank them out on my Star loader. I was trying to find a mold with more cavities to decrease casting time.
For others the bullet is mandated by the rules to be a 158 gn. SWC or RN, no WC or TC.

[wv109323]

I forgot to add to the last post a thank you for all responses.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I forgot to add to the last post a thank you for all responses.

I made no response to the OP, but i appreciate your acknowledgement of those who did. I must also add that this thread did not stray far from the OP, which I appreciate.

[warf73]

Have you thought about the TL358-158-2R, does come in a 6 cavity mold you could buy the 2 cavity to try out. I use the 358-150-1R and is very accurate in my S&W but to light for what your doing.

[tazman]

I have used the TL358-158-2R in my revolvers with outstanding results. It rivals the 358311 in performance. With the mold I have, I don't need to size them since it drops right at the diameter I need.
I wasn't expecting that since the TL bullets fail in my 9mm. I guess it must be the pressure difference. I haven't tried this boolit in 357 mag so cannot comment on it's use there.

[wv109323]

I agree the RN is a good design. I have the RCBS mold but it is a 2 cavity. I ordered a NOE 158 SWC mold that has two small lube grooves and one crimp groove. We will see if it works out. IIRC NOE does not have a 158 RN mold.

[dubber123]

I agree the RN is a good design. I have the RCBS mold but it is a 2 cavity. I ordered a NOE 158 SWC mold that has two small lube grooves and one crimp groove. We will see if it works out. IIRC NOE does not have a 158 RN mold.

The Lyman 358311 is nearly as common as dirt in a 4 cavity configuration.

[wv109323]

Not as common and available as you think.
RCBS - only a two cavity
Lyman -Yes but who wants to depend on Lyman quality right now. Also I have no Lyman molds so that would necessitate buying handles also.
Saeco- Yes A four cavity mold is $179-$199. The NOE was $85.00 delivered
Accurate Molds- Yes $150
H&G- Yes but Good Luck finding one that was not drug through a war.
Lee- I cant remember if they have a 358-158 RNwith a flat base in a six cavity or not. I know they make the RN in a TL.

[kycrawler]

I have a 10 cavity hg 12 a mold. Pm me if I t will work

[2shot]

From one NRA DR shooter to another. Most people don't know the requirements for this event. Here's what I've found that works in my M-14.

SWC's are ok for 25 yard accuracy but will not get you into the winners circle at 50 yards. That's where you have to be competitive to earn your points. I gave up long ago on the SWC of any design for keeping shots in the 10 (or X ring) at 50 yards, they just don't have what it takes. I have settled on the Lyman 358311 four banger and cast my boolits out of range scrap, size to .358 and lube with White Lable BAC. I load them in Remington brass that I have trimmed to .010 less than the minimum length ( 1.145"), use 3.0 grains of Bullseye over a Winchester SP primer, seat Lyman 358311 to the front driving band (half way from top to bottom of this driving band) and crimp with a Redding Profile crimp die with minimal crimp ( .372, just enough to hold bullet from jumping) on the front driving band.

I have had bad luck seating to the crimp groove with this 358311 so I stopped experimenting with seating them this way. By seating deeper to crimp on the front driving band like I do I could use a lesser crimp which helped tremendously with this boolit. With the deeper seating and lighter powder charge there is no problem with pressure and accuracy was much better.

So here's a summary of what works well in my M-14 for DR

Remington brass all trimmed trimmed to .010 under minimum length 1.145"

Winchester small pistol primer

3.0 grains of Bullseye powder.

Lyman 358311 sized .358 with BAC lube and seated to middle of front driving band.

Crimped in separate stage with Redding Profile crimp die to .372

You may have to tweek this a bit for your revolver but it shoots great in mine.

Good luck on your quest for the DR badge.

2shot

An edit to this post. I decap with Lee universal decapper, size with an old RCBS carbide re-size only die and bell case mouth with Lyman "M" expander. I have found that most of the newly manufactured sizing dies squeeze the brass down more than the old ones. The best sizing dies are the old steel dies if you want to take the time to lube the cases and then clean (tumble) them when your done resizing. It pays to experiment with a bunch of sizing dies to see which one ends up being the largest diameter and then use that one for your DR loads. It will work the brass less and fit your chambers better.

This is all figuring that you've already done your homework on your M-14 to find out the throat sizes are all the same, cylinder gap minimum and all the other things it takes to shoot lead accurately in a revolver plus as much dry firing as you can do.

[GWM]

Lyman -Yes but who wants to depend on Lyman quality right now. Also I have no Lyman molds so that would necessitate buying handles also.

I got both my 358311 molds second hand. One was in perfect shape the other not so much, but the boolits from both do better than any other that I've tried except for one custom design that is on par. My test target is at 45 yards, the max range I get right now and there are many boolits that don't do so well. I use cheap Lee handles for almost all of my molds, they work with most brands.

[Piedmont]

You guys are making me want to buy round nose molds. I would like to point out one thing about the classic 358311 and Lyman's classic .44 version that looks the same. Many on the forum believe those shoot well because they self center in the forcing cone of the barrel. If you will look closely at them though, the nose is set back from the front band, just like on a semi wadcutter. So it is my contention that these two classic Lyman designs shoot well because they have a round nose and must travel through the air with less disturbance and not because of any self-centering argument.

[GWM]

It is difficult to ascertain exactly why some boolits almost invariably shoot well and most others don't. Some work with a specific gun but not the next. Many work well enough for most uses but some competitive shooting diciplines require more. A few designs just got it right it seems. Even Elmer Keith said that if it were for accuracy alone he would use the 358311 over his own design that was designed mostly to improve hunting capability. It is a classic for a reason.

But you are right about the nose, it is smaller than the drive bands. Current theory favors full size round flat noses with less curvature that should mate better to the forcing cone. But the 311 is still there and still works.

[dubber123]

A new 358311 just went on the swap and sell page for $70. Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

[xringshutr]

This........it prints itty bitty groups in my S&W model 10 and every other 38/357 I've ever shot it in. This is a copy of the early 358477 and I feel it shoots a little better, plus it looks a little sexier......as boolits go. [smilie=1:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_318&products_id=195

[LAH]

I made a living casting Keith bullets. They have their place but for the game you wish to shoot I'd go with the round nose. You won't be sorry & I would start with the advice given above by 2shot.

[tazman]

This........it prints itty bitty groups in my S&W model 10 and every other 38/357 I've ever shot it in. This is a copy of the early 358477 and I feel it shoots a little better, plus it looks a little sexier......as boolits go. [smilie=1:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35_318&products_id=195

I can also attest to the accuracy of the NOE bullet in that link. Having that longer driving band in the front seems to give it an accuracy advantage over most other SWC designs. It can also be loaded using the crimp groove and not have any problems fitting in the cylinders of any 38 special I have tried it in. Excellent boolit.