Loading for a trapdoor

[Lethemgo]

Today I picked up my first 45/70 a 1873 1888 Springfield. In beautiful condition and looking forward to shooting it. Just wondering about what to pick up to load some blackpowder and maybe sometimes smokeless. When you read the different boards you can become really confused. Just need to get a bullet mold and after just making and purchase it will be a lee. Question is the 340 or 405....kind of planed on the 405 hollow base to start. That's what is it my basket to purchase right now along with a set of dies and some Missouri bullet 459dia 405gr bullets to get started until I can pour some. Or should I go with lighter ones to start. I've shoot lots of blackpowder in my cap and balls...hawken...fowler as I have quite a few but loading brass is a new game.

[Don McDowell]

72 gr of 2f, a .030 fiber wad and seat your 405 gr bullet cast from 16-1 to the driving band. That's what the gun was built around.

[M-Tecs]

Most original TD measure .460" to 467". The advice to slug the bore is thrown out more the need at times, however, due to the wide variance in TD's slugging is highly recommend. The hollow base Lee tends to work well in all the TD's. Until I knew the bore size I would only recommend the Lee Hollow Base.

I recommended I get Spencer and Pat Wolf's 3rd Edition book, "Loading Cartridges For The 45-70 Springfield Rifle And Carbine". It's a treasure trove of information from many years of research performed by Spencer and Pat over the years. It is available from his widow Pat at Wolf's Western Traders at www.the45-70book.com (http://www.the45-70book.com/).

[John Boy]

Scroll to the bottom of the trapdoor website ... http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

[quail4jake]

Easy going load is 300 gr boolit, sized to fit groove dia. + .001" cast to BHN 10-12 over 15 gr Trail Boss. I use that in my Remington RB and Sharps but it is recommended as a TD level load. I like that 72 gr FFg and 405 gr. load...I will be trying that. SPG lube?

[JWT]

I recommended I get Spencer and Pat Wolf's 3rd Edition book, "Loading Cartridges For The 45-70 Springfield Rifle And Carbine". It's a treasure trove of information from many years of research performed by Spencer and Pat over the years. It is available from his widow Pat at Wolf's Western Traders at www.the45-70book.com (http://www.the45-70book.com/).

Absolutely!

The Lee 405HB work well in my TD cast of 40:1.

[Kevin Rohrer]

Wow, is SPG messy to use. There are others that are less goopy.

[jbutts6785]

+1 on the Wolf book and on trapdoorcollector.com. There is a lot of good info in both.

Mine shoots well with the 405 gr Lee HB. It is more accurate with a 500 grain round nose, but that uses more lead and it does kick more. I do not size them, but shoot them as cast, about .461. It is amazing what these old rifles will do out to 3 and 400 yards once you get the ammo right and get used to it.

[waksupi]

I went with a 405 HB from Lee, as that was the design for the Trapdoor. I can get pretty close to 1.5" from the bench at 100 yards. I think I'm loading 14 gr. Rex 3, Unique in about the same amount works the same. Very light recoil. I powder coated my bullets, no problems.

[Lethemgo]

I slugged my bore but it seems hard to get a good measurement of it. Looks to be about .460 but did get one reading of .461 so should be good to go. I have been thinking about powder coating also to stop worrying about leading but I'll see. I have soft lead on hand but no tin to add to it. Dont know where to get some but sure I can. would a little bit of of hard cast or wheel weigh do it. Getting excited to give it a go kind of like when I started muzzleloading. Sure it's just as addictive....great just what I need.

[tbx-4]

I've been loading HSM 405gr cast over 35gr IMR4895 with 1-1.5 oz Dacron filler. Works great in my infantry Trapdoor. This is per Larry Gibson.

For the Trapdoor carbine (22" barrel) I'm using 22gr IMR4198 with same bullet and filler.

Both loads are mild and very close to the original 45-70 & 45-55 black powder loads.

[salpal48]

There is More than enough Info on every website and Book. on Trapdoor Loads.
That Is even a better reason Not to use Black Powder In it. . smokeless is The only way to Go in My opinion. . Get any Old Lyman Data. and You have It.. I strictly shoot 405 Gn. .458-459. Slugging The bore Is a waste Of time. Just Load and shoot
That's it

[Lethemgo]

If the charge your using pretty much fills the case do you need a filler. I've read both so it gets pretty confusing. Some say it's dangerous to use fill while others do it all the time. I'd just like to get a powder that pretty much fills case. Sure it's cheaper to shoot 15gr of unique but 40gr of something else seems safer from charging and filling aspect. Will shoot blackpowder just because I'm a muzzle loader shooter also. Would like the options of having both in a accurate load until I settle on my favorite.

[aap2]

Wolfe designed the Lee 405 gr HB boolit for the trapdoor and the proper diameter is .458-459 just like the original ammo. Mine shot well with this boolit over Unique or black loaded per Wolf's method. IMHO: the bore diameters on the 45-70 trapdoor were very uniform as long as the bore was not worn or damaged by cleaning. Lots of people report bore size variations because it's nearly impossible to get accurate measurements on a slug with an odd number of land impressions unless you have a very rare anvil mic designed for this purpose. This could be the source of the reported bore size variations. Springfield Armoury was never that sloppy. Doesn't matter since the correct boolit diameter is .458-459.

[M-Tecs]

I first got into TD's in the late 60's when Dad was a member of the 7th Calvary re-enactment group. Through the years i have measured 50 or 60 plus bores on both rifles and carbines. I have been a machinist/tool maker for close to 40 years. Most I have measured are .461" to .462" but I have seen as large as .467". I had an almost unfired 1888 that measured .465".

The H&R repros shot great with .458'-459" bullets. Every original I own prefers .462" to .465" bullets.

So good info here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?158632-Trapdoor-bullet-diameters

[Lethemgo]

Yeah I slugged my barrel the other day but getting a measurement was pretty much all over. Mostly though it looked like .460 but one reading of .461

[quail4jake]

Whatever you do please let us know how it goes, exciting isn't it?!

[Lethemgo]

Yes it is and it's supposed to rain here in northern California this weekend. One break and I'll be out. He she is unfortunately someone refinished it in the past sometime. She should still be a good shooter though.

New to a trapdoor but excited to get her out to the range. Just wanted to show it off and see if anyone sees any problems. Dates in 1888 but looks like some one had maybe refinished it at least the wood. Was worried because I didn't see a cartouche on stock but getting it in the sun today I can see where there was one and maybe just thinned down. Has the cleaning rod you have to lift out of slot to remove. Haven't taken completely apart yet but will do that soon. Might shoot some light smokeless loads but being a muzzeloader shooter want to try to stick with mostly blackpowder. Don't have any 2f right now just 3f and 4f so probably this weekend will be smokeless. Thanks for any suggestions.

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad317/lethemgo/20161206_104012.jpg (http://s947.photobucket.com/user/lethemgo/media/20161206_104012.jpg.html)
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[labradigger1]

Looks like a nice one, even has the Buffington sight.

[tbx-4]

If the charge your using pretty much fills the case do you need a filler. I've read both so it gets pretty confusing. Some say it's dangerous to use fill while others do it all the time. I'd just like to get a powder that pretty much fills case...

If the powder fills the case why would you need filler? Filler is just to keep the powder against the primer.

With black powder the case must be filled with a slight compression. Any air gap will cause a pressure spike.

With smokeless powder a filler like Dacron or kapok is not dangerous because they compress easy. Some use grain based filler like cream of wheat, corn meal and such. The problem with these type of fillers is if the cartridge is stored it can draw moisture then filler swells and hardens. It's really a problem with bottle neck cases not sure what effect it has on the 45-70 case.

I use Dacron because it was easy to obtain (wife's sewing supplies). We don't keep corn meal or cream of wheat in the cupboard. I also like the idea of something that keeps the powder against the primer but compresses easily. Dacron is the answer for me.

One other thing I've done is to enlarge the flash hole in the case to the next larger bit in my drill index... So I found the drill bit that would go through the flash hole then took the next larger bit in the index and drilled them out but no larger. This was to give a more uniform ignition. I'd have to go look at my notes to see what that was. This is only done for smokeless reloads because I don't reload black powder...

BTW, very nice looking TD!

[varsity07840]

Wolfe designed the Lee 405 gr HB boolit for the trapdoor and the proper diameter is .458-459 just like the original ammo. Mine shot well with this boolit over Unique or black loaded per Wolf's method. IMHO: the bore diameters on the 45-70 trapdoor were very uniform as long as the bore was not worn or damaged by cleaning. Lots of people report bore size variations because it's nearly impossible to get accurate measurements on a slug with an odd number of land impressions unless you have a very rare anvil mic designed for this purpose. This could be the source of the reported bore size variations. Springfield Armoury was never that sloppy. Doesn't matter since the correct boolit diameter is .458-459.

My '88 TD has a groove size of .4625. It WAS measured with an anvil mic by a gentleman that posts here as TexasMac. I don't recall where I saw it but on line somewhere is study of TD bore/ groove sizes based on examination of twenty or so rifles. Most of them were over .458 groove.
My rifle shoots better with an unsized 405 HB rather than at .459.

[Kevin Rohrer]

In addition to the Wolfe book, look at the Paul Matthew books. And check Amazon for others.

As far as fillers, I am also new to the game, but found that w/ Starline brass and a 300gr. or larger lead bullet, 65gr of 2F and a card wad behind the bullet lets me compress the powder. No filler is needed.

[jrmartin1964]

http://i947.photobucket.com/albums/ad317/lethemgo/20161206_104012.jpg (http://s947.photobucket.com/user/lethemgo/media/20161206_104012.jpg.html)


That's a real beauty!

[jrmartin1964]

I don't recall where I saw it but on line somewhere is study of TD bore/ groove sizes based on examination of twenty or so rifles.

I think this may be it:

[Ithaca Gunner]

The .45 Springfield is one rifle I can't be without. They're just too much fun to shoot and have around.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn179/krag1894/100_0369_zpsd86c9332.jpg

My current favorite shooter has the, "shall be issued upon request" pistol grip added, I like it.

[Lethemgo]

Raining today so have some time to load up some rounds. Can't wait to get her out and give it a try. Tomorrow will have to be soon enough. Received my dies, cases, 405 bullets, plus a mold. Won't have time to pour lead right now so will use the ones I bought. Have some unique, green dot, bl c2, varget. should be able to find a load with any of those.

[varsity07840]

I think this may be it:

That's the one.

Thanks.

[Lethemgo]

Went to the range yesterday with a 405 boolit and 14gr unique and what a joy to shoot. Shot them in my trapdoor and new purchased sharps. Nice round and for hitting stuff laying around range accurate. Will still work with different loads but how simple can you get than weighing up 14gr and seating a boolit.

[PatMarlin]

Just pulled my file on my 1873, and I found a one hole group target sitting here (back in 2007…lol) 30grs of IMR3031, Win LR primer, a 454gr PB bullet from a member here. Don't remember what mold it was. Kenjuudo's mold. OAL 2.790 Lee die,s Lee factory crimp. Lee Alox, and Bullshop Speed Green lube in 3 grooves. Air cooled ww lead.

Also fired in the State of Jefferson, so same atmospheric conditions… :mrgreen:

[Scharfschuetze]

That's a beaut Lethemgo.

I see that a previous owner replaced the original front sight with a higher one for smokeless powder loads. BP loads will generally shoot much higher than an equivalent velocity load with smokeless powder.