OK what have I got here??

[RustyReel]

Mods please feel free to move if I have put this in the wrong spot.

Picked up a few of my favorite things this am, sported military rifles!! Of course, two of them were unmarked. One was supposedly a 308 Winchester and the other an 8x57. After cleaning years of neglect out of the barrels I find that they both appear to be rebarreled with 2 groove barrels. Probably WW1/2 surplus and certainly 30 cal.

A 308 Winchester chambers in the one rifle. The other rifle is obviously a magnum based on the belt inside the chamber and thd opening of the bolt face. But I'm not exactly sure what they are. Please see the pic.

The one round looks like a 308 Winchester with a longer neck. I feel confident I can fire cast 308 Wins safely in this but just wondering if anyone knows what it is supposed to be....some early wildcat version of the later to be 308 Win?

The magnum rifle I am guessing is a 308 Norma Magnum. I've been banging on the net for a couple of hours and can't seem to come up with a side/side pic of the Norma and 300 Win. Cart in the pic is a 300 Win for comparision.

Any thoughts will be appreciated.

181914

[cainttype]

The Norma is shorter than the 300 win Mag, so you're probably correct.
Chect out "Steve's Pages" online, page 8 I think, for good drawings of both casings... It should help you identify the case.

[Tackleberry41]

I knew a guy at one point who had a springfield rechambered to 308 norma mag. Nothing more needed than a reamer.

[racepres]

I kinda like that long neck 308...A cast Boolit delight certainly...
Have ya some fun...
I don't know squat about Magnums, so no Help there at all!!!

[cainttype]

I have an early '60s vintage Husky that was rechambered to 308 NM. The bolt face was opened and the magazine feed rails opened and polished. It's the most accurate standard weight "Magnum" rifle I've ever owned.
The conversion was very popular back then, but Winchester's introduction of the 300 Win Mag pretty much offered a cheaper alternative that ended all that.
The 308 Norma Mag is basically a factory version of the very popular 30-338 long-range favorite of that time, and many still consider it a much better option than the 300 WM that drove it into obscurity.

[RustyReel]

Thanks guys. Here's a stupid question I should know the answer to, especially at 67 YO. Chamber cast are copies of the rifles chamber, cartridge drawings (as in reloading manuals) are drawings of the cartridge case. The two are not EXACTLY the same dimensions are they???

[cainttype]

They will be close... very close.
The thing with rechambers is that the reamers might not all be exactly the same, so small differences may be found. In the case of the 308 Norma, the 30-338 was also very popular before the Norma was standardized, so you might have that wildcat... and not all those may have been cut "exactly" the same... but should be close.
If you compare the standardized measurements to your casting you'll have a good idea what you're dealing with.
BTW, the 30-338 might be on "Steve's Pages", too.

[ulav8r]

You're correct, cartridge is smaller than chamber. Don't have a link handy, but somewhere on Paco Kelly's site you can find both drawings on the same page for most cartridges.

[cainttype]

If, by chance, you don't find a match... it appears your shortened 300 WM cast (308 NM, 30-338, or other wildcat) would be a very simple case to form as long as your rifle is in useable condition.
I'd be glad to help with info if you need to go that route.

[cainttype]

Yes... if the casing was the same size, you'd never get it in the chamber, and any contaminates would only make it worse... it has to be slightly smaller.

[JWT]

Try this link for chamber drawings.

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/C%20and%20C%20Dwgs%20-%20TOC%20-%20Rifle.pdf

[rockrat]

page8d.com

[RustyReel]

Thanks guys. I'm leaning heavily toward the 308 Norma Magnum. It is one of those rounds I always wanted (along with the 7x61 S&H) but never really got around to acquiring. Kinda happy I lucked into this. One little bit of possibly good news from what looks to be turning out to be a bad case of buyers remorse!! Only thing I can see really wrong with the rifle is some bozo expoxied the barreled action and stock together.....but I guess I could live with that.

I've been researching making the Norma brass. Differing opinions, but seems to be pretty straight forward using 300 Win Mag brass, which I have.

Gonna just load some cast and shoot the 308. Unless something unexpected happens at the range I think that should be fine.

Fun stuff.....guy's gotta have something to do! (lot also included most of a 270, a 35 Whelen and a 7mm Rem Mag.....whoo hoo)

[runfiverun]

easy enough to make that long necked brass.
just get something longer brass like the x54 or the x57 stuff and shove it in your size die till you get the right length.
then trim it off to length.

[longbow]

That .308 with "long neck" might be a 7.65x53. I had a 7.65x53 Argentine Mauser and it is close to .308 but uses .303 size bullets/boolits. I made brass from .30-06 cartridges.

[cainttype]

If shortening 300 WM, double checking neck wall thickness is a good idea in case any reduction is necessary for clearance.
Tight chamber necks are not unusual in rechambered 308 Norma Mags.

[cainttype]

Your 1st cast appears very similar at the neck as a 30-06... Is "short-chambering" a possibilty?
I'm assuming your cast shows the full length of the chamber (?)... I'm curious if you've tried a 30-06 case?

[RustyReel]

30-06 was one of the first things I tried (factory) so that is not it. Stopped the chamber cast pour near the recoil lug recess so it wasn't a "short pour".

Pretty certain it is not the 7.65 Argentine as the barrel looks like a 2 groove US GI.

[cainttype]

I meant is it possible that a 30-06 reamer was used, but only bringing the shoulder to the same depth as a 308's shoulder... a "short" 30-06?

[cainttype]

The '06 shoulder should be smaller diameter than the 308.

[jsn]

Your neck in a chamber should always be longer than a SAAMI spec cartridge. They make chamber plugs that with a modified case can measure from the bolt face to the end of the neck in the chamber. .025-.040" longer is not uncommon.

[cainttype]

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/Z299-4_ANSI-SAAMI_CFR.pdf

Plenty of info here.

[flounderman]

the 7 mag and the .338 are the same case. the norma is longer. .264 win mag brass is longer, and should blow out to norma size. I made serviceable cases from 7 mag for an unmarked barreled action, I thought was a norma. Very little difference in length to shoulder. Neck is shorter, Norma is probably bigger at the shoulder, but it is possible to use 7 mag brass.

[RustyReel]

the 7 mag and the .338 are the same case. the norma is longer. .264 win mag brass is longer, and should blow out to norma size. I made serviceable cases from 7 mag for an unmarked barreled action, I thought was a norma. Very little difference in length to shoulder. Neck is shorter, Norma is probably bigger at the shoulder, but it is possible to use 7 mag brass.

flounderman, thanks. I just made up a few using 7 mag brass. Yes, they are short but I see no reason why they should not work. Easy peasy to make, just open them up to 30 cal. And, they will not chamber in either of my 7 mag rifles, which is a concern someone had on another board. Haven't had a chance to fire them yet... If for some reason they don't work out I can always use the 300 win brass but I understand that is a bit more of a process.

[James Wisner]

Regarding the 308 chamber.

Sometimes it the simplest things

You are looking at part of the old 30-06 neck/throat.
Whoever set the barrel back and rethreaded to fit the new action did not shorten it enough to totally clean up the old 30-06 neck. If they had gone even 1/2 of a thread or turn more, then you would not be seeing the longer neck area.

I would not worry about it, check the headspace and if fine then have fun shooting it.

JW

[RustyReel]

Regarding the 308 chamber.

Sometimes it the simplest things

You are looking at part of the old 30-06 neck/throat.
Whoever set the barrel back and rethreaded to fit the new action did not shorten it enough to totally clean up the old 30-06 neck. If they had gone even 1/2 of a thread or turn more, then you would not be seeing the longer neck area.

I would not worry about it, check the headspace and if fine then have fun shooting it.

JW



Now that makes sense. I did shoot 10 rounds of cast thru it a couple
of days ago and all seemed fine. I'll try a little warmer load next just to be certain.
Thanks again guys for all the help!

[snowtigger]

Thanks guys. I'm leaning heavily toward the 308 Norma Magnum. It is one of those rounds I always wanted (along with the 7x61 S&H) but never really got around to acquiring. Kinda happy I lucked into this. One little bit of possibly good news from what looks to be turning out to be a bad case of buyers remorse!! Only thing I can see really wrong with the rifle is some bozo expoxied the barreled action and stock together.....but I guess I could live with that.

I've been researching making the Norma brass. Differing opinions, but seems to be pretty straight forward using 300 Win Mag brass, which I have.



Gonna just load some cast and shoot the 308. Unless something unexpected happens at the range I think that should be fine.

Fun stuff.....guy's gotta have something to do! (lot also included most of a 270, a 35 Whelen and a 7mm Rem Mag.....whoo hoo)

Congratulations, I have been shooting a 308 Norma for the last 40 years. I used to make brass from 338 win mag, but it is a lot of work . I finally settled on 7mm Rem mag. Just run it through the Norma sizing die and check it for length. Then go shooting.
The only problem I have had is the length from the head to the front of the belt. They spec out to be about .002" longer on the 7mm. Some will not chamber easily. Some will. Thanks to the inaccuracies of modern manufacturing. The good thing is you can try them before you re size.
BTW, I have several other rifles, but if I had to settle on just one, it would be my 308 Norma. When I pull that trigger, something dies.

PS: I bought some new Norma ammo a couple years back. I think they started making it again. I have not tried to buy any since.

[snowtigger]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1311325139/norma-reloading-brass-308-norma-magnum

I just checked Midway. They have new 308 Norma brass. Haven't checked Grafs.

[RustyReel]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1311325139/norma-reloading-brass-308-norma-magnum

I just checked Midway. They have new 308 Norma brass. Haven't checked Grafs.

Yep, they have 308 Norma Brass, at $1.50 ea plus shipping or so. Grafs is more. I went ahead and made up ten rounds using 7mm Remington brass that I got for $0.10 each! No biggie actually, just open the mouth up to 30 cal and load up. Shot the ten rounds (22.0 2400, lyman 308291 GC PC .309) into 1.5" at 50 yds. I'm happy with that as a first time out. Overall brass length is short (as expected) and the shoulder moved ever so slightly forward. Visually the formed 308 and the 7 mag cases look very similar, but the loaded 308 Normas will not chamber in either of my 7 mag rifles.

The suspected 308 is a "long neck" 308. Rifle fired fine but accuracy wasn't anything to write home about.

Thanks for all your help guys.