Paper Patching the RCBS 165 Silhouette Boolit in .308 Winchester

[MUSTANG]

Paper patching using Smokeless Powder has interested me for some number of years. I’ve tried my hand off and on over the last three years with terrible to poor results each time. I’ve read what seems like ALL the posts in this forum on the subject here on the Cast Boolits Forum, some numerous times. Success until recently (2016 period) was gauged in going from keeping all 5 or 10 round “Groups” in the same county, to at least hitting a 16” x 16” target board with at least 5 of 10 rounds. I have committed myself to achieving some level of expertise, and not abandoning the effort yet again.

The initial string of posts will be somewhat an Archive of experiences over the last year. This thread will center on one Boolit, an RCBS 165 Sil, with testing being in .308 Winchester. Powder will be W760. I have multiple rifles in .308W / 7.62 x 51 so this platform allows me to eventually try and achieve some level of accuracy with PP in y, several rifles, as opposed to a dedicated single rifle (yes I recognize that I’ll have to develop new loads for each rifle based on it’s unique chamber and barrel condition). The initial Test Rifle I will be using will be a Remington 700 ADL Varmint Barreled .308 Winchester wearing it’s original plastic stock. It is outfitted with a Japanese made Center Point scope variable 4-16X , with MilDot reticle.

I worked up the following table to capture and compare past results in 2016 when I began to have a comparatively higher level of success. Efforts will focus on changing one area at a time to see if improvements are occurring. Data such as chronographed velocities, deviation, energy, etc… will no be captured until acceptable groups are occurring.

As I am becoming a “More Seasoned” shooter; the eyes are fading so even with a Scope I may not achieve MOA or Sub-MOA; but that will wait for a later date to determine when “Good Enough” is achieved in this effort, at that time there are “Many Moulds yet to Go” so I may move on to a similar thread for another mould/s.


181655
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Useful comments are appreciated. I would like to keep this thread clean, focused on the RCBS 165 Sil in 308Winchester so future readers can apply to that narrow effort. Any past tests resulting in “Terrible” Groups were not included as they do not move the goal forward.

[MUSTANG]

This early effort used cash register receipt paper that was wrapped around an RCBS 165Sil Boolit then sized to .309.

181656
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[MUSTANG]

This effort utilized an RCBS 165Sil that was sized to .309 after wrapping with "Costco Butter Paper". The paper came from around sticks of butter bought at Costco. Requires cleaning the paper with a paper towel to remove traces of the butter. Paper can go rancid over time of butter is not adequatly cleaned from it. May or may not go down this path further in the future.

181657
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[MUSTANG]

This effort with Paper Patch using Costco Parchment Paper was better, but was restricted to a 5 round test.

181979
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[MUSTANG]

This is the best group I have accomplished Paper Patching; but it is only a 5 shot group. Used a Parchment Paper (Costco Baking Parchment Paper) and the tail glued with a Craft Glue.


181980
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[MUSTANG]

This group was highly encouraging. Again used Parchment Paper from Costco (taken from a Roll of Baking Parchment Paper). This paper is difficult to Paper Patch with, as it has a silicone coating on one side. Soaking in water is preferred method to wet it, but the paper patch curls and has to be straightened out and placed back into water soak. The silicone keeps it from adhering to itself, making a Cigarette Roller necessary for me to get the patch tight. Also, I have to glue the tail down with a Crafts Glue designed for Parchment Paper. As you can see, when I shot a 10 Round Group, the size increased with greater number of shots fired.


181981
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[MUSTANG]

A consistent but disappointing pattern is occurring. Portions of the 10 Shot string are fair groups, but a few shots dramtically open the overall Group. In this test I have switched paper to Cash Register Receipt Paper. This test the boolit was sized to .308; wrapped with the paper, then sized again to .309.


181982
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[MUSTANG]

I switched paper in this test. Numerous threads have had post where the use of tracing paper was advocated. I ordered some Acadamie Tracing Paper from Amazon (Same paper carried by Wal-Mart I believe). Though this could be a good performer; but proved to be disappointing in this test. I do note that this paper is much weaker than the Cash Register Paper which is the same thickness. It is much much weaker than the Costco Parchment Paper.


181983
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At first the group looks as if it should be pursued further; BUT 5 of the 10 Rounds failed to hit the 16" x 16" backer board.

[MUSTANG]

My next testing will be made using the RCBS 165Sil boolit; sized to .308 in a Lee die - sized again in an NOE .305 Die - and then final sizing down to .302 in an NOE die. The boolits will be wrapped twice in Cash Register Tape (~ .002 thick), dried, very lightly lubed with an alcohol lanolin mixture lube, sized to .308, and then dried 12 to 24 hours before loading.

[longbow]

I won't be an awful lot of help here as I am not an accomplished PP boolit shooter but I do have some experience and had some good success with what I did.

Not sure about your paper selection. I would not recommend slick parchment paper or butter paper. What was recommended in the "old days" was 100% cotton or linen rag though it seems that many are using standard printer paper with good results. The other commonly used paper is the old green par printer paper. And another is tracing paper.

I have used good cotton or linen bond paper and tracing paper with pretty good success.

This may have some info for you:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?34782-Paper-101

There are also a number of threads on what has worked and not worked for others so a search may help if you haven't already done that. I see you said you have read many posts so that is likely covered.

Also, the NRA style boolits were 0.301" for standard .30 cal. I note you are using 0.302" which may not be an issue at only 0.001" larger but just saying.

Some folks size after patching and some say to patch to slightly over groove diameter with no sizing after patching. How thick is the paper you are using and how much sizing is it seeing? I am thinking your final size should be same as for GG boolits at 0.001" to 0.002" over groove diameter or use a paper that results in a little over groove diameter after patching with no final sizing.

How hard is your alloy? If you are pushing the boolits fairly hard you need a fairly hard alloy of at least ACWW, not soft lead.

Are you crimping? Crimping is bad with PP boolits.

Anyway, that's about all I've got but there are others with way more experience than I have that I am sure can help out.

Longbow

[MUSTANG]

Longbow:

Thank for the review and comments.

(1) the BHN for these are 22.7, down stream may try some softer boolits; these are from a water quenched lot cast this summer.
(2) I attempted the tracing paper as identified in post #8, that effort resulted in poor results. May try again later, but that paper is on hold.
(3) On my future test efforts I post I'll also be using the same Spread Sheet/Data Sheet as attached in each post 2-8. These contain a wide range of information on the test Shoot such as BHN, OAL, Paper used, techniques for PP'ing, powder and .....
(4) Posting the failures (except those that never hit target) will allow other readers to see quite a bit of data on each test with my results so they can follow and adapt for their own efforts.

[longbow]

I wonder if at 22+ BHN your boolits may be too hard? They are GG boolits though not slicks so paper slippage shouldn't be an issue but maybe they are too hard to easily engrave resulting in damage to the paper.

Might be worth trying some ACWW for comparison.

What I found was that a boolit of bore diameter to a thou or so over and then patching to a little over groove diameter with cotton bond paper worked for me with ACWW.

I am surprised there haven't been more replies so far. I am not an avid paper patcher but I am interested and looking forward to comments/info from others and your success stories.

Keep at it, you get 'er beat.

Longbow

[OverMax]

Best to get the BHN factor of your lead down a little. 10 to 12 BHN would be near perfect for patching. 22 BHN is harder than pure linotype at (19) and near pewter's hardness of (23) BHN.
Tip: >Do not use water drop boolits intended for paper patching<
No need to wonder why no comments. >Were all here >and reading this OPs threading as his experiment in patching moves along.

[oldblinddog]

Size to .310", use a lower hardness level, and use printer paper.

[barrabruce]

Don't jump the bullet load out to touch lands or throat.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I totally agree with posts #14 and #15 as to wrapping and seating. For my 7.62 Mosin I use RCBS 30 180 FN as cast with standard WW AC. I wet wrap the as cast boolet with ordinary copier paper and air dry 24 hrs. I then light lube with JPW and size to ,314 in a push thru sizer. Using issue Mil. sights I can keep a 5 shot string in a 6" grouping at 100 paces, good enough for this old man`s eyes and an issue trigger Mosin rifle. I seat the PP boolet out to touch the rifling and they still function out of the mag. well in my rifle.Robert

[MUSTANG]

For the test shoot on 29 November 2016:

I changed the Paper to Cash Register Paper. Sized the RCBS 165 Sil boolits to 0.302 in an NOE Nose die, wrapped the boolit with Cash Register Tape (~ 0.002 thick) moistened in saliva and rolled on a pad. After boolit dried 24 hours it was lubed with Teflon Spray lube, let dry for 10 minutes, then sized in a Lee 0.309 Sizer die. Neck of Brass was expanded with an RCBS 0.308 neck die – slight bell on mouth.

181950

(Full Load Data is attached above. Click and enlarge to see data.)

[MUSTANG]

For the test shoot on 2 December 2016:

I changed the Paper to Costco Parchment Paper. Sized the RCBS 165 Sil boolits to 0.308 in a Lee Sizing die, wrapped the boolit with Parchment Paper (~ 0.002 thick) soaked for 10 minutes in water (Paper curls when dropped in water – You need to straighten it out and place back in water prior to use), then hand rolled on a pad. Tail glued with Pergamano brand Pergo Glue (Find it on Amazon). After boolit dried 24 hours it was lubed with Teflon Spray lube, let dry for 10 minutes, then sized in a Lee 0.311 Sizer die. Neck of Brass was expanded with an RCBS 0.310 neck die – slight bell on mouth.

181952 182326

(Full Load Data is attached above. Click PDF to see data.)





As a round up of the Testing Data I have captured to date in this effort, see the Table Below.


181955
(Load Data Comparison Table is attached above. Click and enlarge to see data.)
I added a column for the Neck sizer dimension to the table to see how that additional information plays out in analysis of data. Analysis of the spread sheet to date is interesting to note:

(1) Costco Parchment Paper appears to provide a better grouping, but has more data collected.
(2) Cash Register tape seems to have significantly larger groups (and patch failure?)
(3) Review of other files for other boolits indicates that my .004 thick printer paper behaves similar to Cash Register Tape in (2) above.
(4) Butter Wrapper Paper has similar properties to Parchment Paper (wider Groups?)

I will change a variety of parameters and see where performance goes in future testing. I measured the land diameter for the Remington 700 yesterday and it is 0.300.

[barrabruce]

You stated that you slobbered on the cash register tape.

There was a discussion about that quite a while ago.

Apparently the chemicals that make "the printing or thermo what ever it is thing ",is not the sort of stuff you want to be ingesting and was stated that dipping it in water was a more healthier choice.

According to those in the know.





I

[MUSTANG]

You stated that you slobbered on the cash register tape.

There was a discussion about that quite a while ago.

Apparently the chemicals that make "the printing or thermo what ever it is thing ",is not the sort of stuff you want to be ingesting and was stated that dipping it in water was a more healthier choice.

According to those in the know.





I


Interesting. Seems everything in life is out to do us in these days. We may have left the jungle, but nature still has a part to play I guess.

I do know that if that source of paper is easy to get too wet, and will tear rapidly. Currently, Costco Parchment Paper has performed better than cash register tape so we'll see how it may be made to perform better in my testing.

[kbstenberg]

I have also not had good luck with PP. But am going to try again.
I am in the process of making pound casts of my chambers. To help figure what my target measurements will have to be. Have you done that?

[MUSTANG]

I have also not had good luck with PP. But am going to try again.
I am in the process of making pound casts of my chambers. To help figure what my target measurements will have to be. Have you done that?


I have not yet done a chamber cast or pound cast of the chamber. This Rem700 is a new rifle bought a few months ago after the wife said "Why Don't you buy a new Rifle". I did pound the nose of a RCBS 165 Sil boolit into the muzzle. Measured the Lands to be .300 across from that test.

[MUSTANG]

For the test shoot on 6 December 2016:

Best 10 shot group to date today using the Paper Patched RCBS 165 Sil boolit. The Group was 3.137 MOA. Not where I want to be yet, but much better than before. Temps today at the range was 8 degrees Fahrenheit, which caused me to initially have some concern that Temps could potentially affect both my shooting and groups (Temp sensitive affects on powder burn rate). It seems to have worked out well, but the rifle and ammo were much warmer as they had been in the heated Jeep; not on the shoulder hiking in 8* weather.

__________________________________________________ _______________________

I changed the diameter of the boolit. First I sized the RCBS 165 Sil boolits to 0.308 in a Lee Sizing die, then used an NOE nose die to size the entire boolit to .305.

I then once again used Costco Parchment Paper to wrap the boolit (~ 0.002 thick), patch was soaked for 10 minutes in water (Paper curls when dropped in water – You need to straighten it out and place back in water prior to use), then rolled the Paper onto the boolit using a Cigarette Roller, about 20 turns of the roller.

I then unrolled about 2/3 diameter of paper, glued the tail with Pergamano brand Pergo Glue (Find it on Amazon), then hand rolled the tail onto the boolit using a pad (similar to RCBS Lube Pad). I pressed down and rolled each boolit three additional times the length of pad. Tucked the excess Paper Patch material onto the base of the boolit, stood each on the base to hold the tucked portion against the base while drying. After boolit dried 24 hours it was lubed with Lanolin (5 or 6 sprays of Lanolin liqufied in 97% alcohol - let alcohol air dry off - gives very light Lanolin application), then sized in a Lee 0.309 Sizer die. Paper on boolit where it was sized almost looks like a uniform white plastic after sizing.

Neck of .308 Winchester Brass was expanded with an RCBS 0.308 neck die – slight bell on mouth. Boolit placed into expanded neck ensuring no misalignment or damage to Patch; then case was placed into shell holder and the ram was slowly lowered to seat boolit to overall length of 2.665 inches. The die is set to close the expanded neck; BUT no crimp is on the brass after seating. The 2.665 length on the seated RCBS 165 Sil boolit makes the top edge of the Driving band/Nose area seat along the mouth of the brass.


182156 182325
(Full Load Data is attached above. Click the PDF to see data).


I have and order in with NOE for additional sizing dies inserts in 0.300, and 0.301. Will use these for additional testing in the future. May place and additional order for 0.303 and 0.304 dies given the better results todays provided. Anticipate my next test will try the Tracing Paper with the boolit sized to .0305 (Todays test with only a change in paper used).

[yeahbub]

Greetings, Mustang. I've been following your efforts and if I could offer a comment or two, I'd say our alloy would be fine for full power with a bare lubricated boolit, but probably too hard for the thin (and delicate) papers you've tried. I'd suggest trying a tougher paper for a boolit that hard. The paper I use most often is 100% cotton drafting vellum, usually .0025 thick, which adds .009 with two wraps. The math seems wrong, but that's how it works out in practice. It's tough enough when wet to stretch with much more force than bond papers can stand and I needn't worry about tearing them. An E-size sheet will cost you $2 or so at an art supply store and will make a couple hundred patches, but cut the strips from the narrow edge of the sheet for added stretchability and shrinkage when drying. Given the short ogive on that RCBS 165 Sil design supported by the patch, you won't need alloy anywhere near 22 BHN. Quenched wheel weights at the most. Air cooled should be fine. Very hard alloys and delicate papers don't go together well and the driving bands may be clipping through the paper on the lands. Another possibility is the alloy may be too hard for the pressures generated. Lee talks about this in the Lee loading manual, matching alloy hardness and chamber pressure.

You seem to favor a systematic approach. Keep whacking at it - you'll get there.

[MUSTANG]

Greetings, Mustang. I've been following your efforts and if I could offer a comment or two, I'd say our alloy would be fine for full power with a bare lubricated boolit, but probably too hard for the thin (and delicate) papers you've tried. I'd suggest trying a tougher paper for a boolit that hard. The paper I use most often is 100% cotton drafting vellum, usually .0025 thick, which adds .009 with two wraps. The math seems wrong, but that's how it works out in practice. It's tough enough when wet to stretch with much more force than bond papers can stand and I needn't worry about tearing them. An E-size sheet will cost you $2 or so at an art supply store and will make a couple hundred patches, but cut the strips from the narrow edge of the sheet for added stretchability and shrinkage when drying. Given the short ogive on that RCBS 165 Sil design supported by the patch, you won't need alloy anywhere near 22 BHN. Quenched wheel weights at the most. Air cooled should be fine. Very hard alloys and delicate papers don't go together well and the driving bands may be clipping through the paper on the lands. Another possibility is the alloy may be too hard for the pressures generated. Lee talks about this in the Lee loading manual, matching alloy hardness and chamber pressure.

You seem to favor a systematic approach. Keep whacking at it - you'll get there.


yeahbub:

Drafting vellum is an idea I am interested in adding to the test series. Is the drafting vellum you are using a 16 lb version? Amazon has several different offering in Vellum paper, the one I was looking at is Clearprint 10001410 Design Vellum Paper, 16 lb, White, 8-1/2 x 11 in 50 sheet pads. This is available from Amazon as listed in the link:

https://www.amazon.com/Clearprint-10001410-Design-Vellum-CHA10001410/dp/B000F7ARPQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1481296602&sr=8-5&keywords=vellum+clearprint (https://www.amazon.com/Clearprint-10001410-Design-Vellum-CHA10001410/dp/B000F7ARPQ/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1481296602&sr=8-5&keywords=vellum+clearprint)

Before I retired a few years ago I could have gone over to the Engineering Department and picked up some Vellum (They had flat drawers full that were never used because of AutoCad design vs hand drawing now-a-days; with huge printers, but the paper for those was not vellum). Appreciate your thoughts on the 16 Lb vellum before I order.

[CJR]

Mustang

A couple of questions/comments:

1. After you size the 165gr RCBS Sil. CB, PP it, and resize it; have you ever removed the PP and miked the smaller diameter bore-riding nose and the larger diameter base? If so, what were the dimensions?
2. How did you determine the OAL of your PP round?
3. Final diameter of the PPCB, for the 308 Win, should be 0.308"D as determined by the NRA. Anything larger in diameter will cause the 308's chamber's forcing cone to tear the PP as the PPCB round is chambered. A torn PP will cause inaccuracy.

Hang in there. You're getting close.

Best regards,

CJR

[yeahbub]

Is that stuff still at the company you worked for and do you know someone there? Might be able to get it for a song if they have no use for it. When the company I work for went to 3D CAD, all the drafting stuff was shifted first to one corner and then to another. Beautiful stuff, treated like so much junk. Sad. The vellum I use is Clearprint 1000H 16lb Traditional 100% New Cotton Fiber - Solvent Free, Plain (no title blocks or borders, just blank paper). Personally, I don't much mess with 8.5x11's. Too much fiddling with short strips, but if it's all you can easily get, it'll certainly work. Drafting vellum is as close as you can get to what was once called "bank note" paper used for patching a century ago. I went big and bought a roll, 42" x 20 yards when I saw it on sale online, $38 IIRC. There's a lot of patches in a 42" strip. If you have access to an art supply place, you can buy a big sheet or two for less than $5 and see if it works for you. The best price I could find after a quick search is at http://www.jerrysartarama.com/clearprint-vellum-rolls, 18" x 5 yards for $8.59. It generally runs .0025 thick and is very consistent. I patch and size, so paper thickness is less of a consideration than for someone who depends on patching to a precise diameter.

I had another idea about those hard boolits you have. Have you considered patching them with .001-.0015 copper foil? It would stand up to the hard alloy, but I remember reading that approach had it's own peculiarities. Just an idea. . .

[MUSTANG]

For the test shoot on 12 December 2016:

This 10 shot group used Tracing Paper to Paper Patch the RCBS 165 Sil boolit. This Group at 6.306 MOA, was significantly larger than the one in Post #23 above, which had used Costco Parchment Paper. Previously on the 21 November 2016 testing, I had used the Academie Tracing Paper with poor results (the boolit in that Test had been sized to .302, this one to .305). Although today's test proved much better with the Tracing Paper compared to the 21 November effort, I am not encouraged with this paper choice.

I ordered a pad of Cotton Drafting Vellum from Amazon based on the comments from yeahbub (post #24 above). I am thinking the tracing paper is too weak to provide an effective paper jacket. Hopefully the paper Vellum will roll and seal to itself without the glue and extra effort I am expending with the Costco Parchment Paper. The ready availability, coupled with better (although not yet acceptable) results of the Costco Parchment Paper is why I've chased it so far.

182610

182609

(Full Load Data is attached above. Click the PDF to see data).

[oldblinddog]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?154034-Paper-patching-what-works-for-me

[yeahbub]

Mustang, how about some photos of those patched boolits? Are you using gas checks or leaving them off? I don't use them with PP and don't seem to suffer for it. Here's a post on the tecnique I use, http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?232397-How-do-I-need-to-put-the-paper-up. Curious how you do it. . . .

[MUSTANG]

No I am not using Gas Checks when Paper Patching boolits.

182750

Above is a thumbnail pic of an RCBS 165 Sil (.308) sitting over the Paper Patch aligned as it will be to begin wrapping. The line on the patch was drawn with a Sharpie Permanent marker ~ 0.15 from the edge; this allows the paper "Tail" to be folded under the boolit edge to form a paper base after wrapping, forming a solid paper base smoothly flowing into the Paper Patch edge.


182752
The attached pdf provides a better look at the cut patch, dimensions used, and pics.

[MUSTANG]

For today's testing the paper was changed to Vellum Drafting Paper purchased from Amazon. The paper is .0029 thick (derived by measuring 50 sheets in the pad, and then dividing by 50). Boolit was sized to .305, patched & dried, than lubed with Teflon spray and sized in a .308 sizing die before loading. Group using Vellum Paper today at 6.360 MOA was about the same size as the Tracing paper group listed in post #28. Progress seems to be going sideways for now.

182867


(Full Load Data is attached below. Click the PDF to see data).

Still waiting on 0.300 and 0.301 sizing dies I ordered, so reducing the boolit diameter in testing will have to wait. Next test I am going to look at reducing the diameter of from the .305 last used, to a diameter of .303 after the boolit is sized.

[MUSTANG]

For the Test on the 19th December I reduced the sizing dimension of the boolit to .303 compared to the previous test which used a .305 boolit sizing. Paper patch was Costco Parchment Paper once again at a dimension of ~ .002 thick. This one was a head-scratcher, as the first 4 rounds hit in the lower portion or near the edge of the 2” orange bull. I did not take the Spotting Scope so 1st couple rounds I saw nothing on the target through the scope, but was able to see the impacts at shot #4. Shot # 5 was on the backboard at 9 oclock, and the next 4 shots were dispersed on the backboard, with shots 9 and 10 missing the cardboard backboard entirely. With the exception of the boolit sizing diameter; load, PP’ing technique, and boolit were the same as in Post # 23 on 6 December.

183162


After returning home I tried the technique recommended several times on various threads in the Smokeless Powder Paper Patching section to use a tight fitting dry patch pulled through the barrel from chamber to muzzle, feeling for tight sections. There was no detectable tight sections in the barrel (The technique is supposed to give a hint to whether Paper Patch is failing in the throat/forcing cone area of the barrel, or further down the barrel.). I used my regular cleaning technique for all of these tests, pulling a Brass Brush through the Barrel 20 times with a white rag positioned from the crown to a foot away from the barrel, then Hoppes #9 on a patch twice, then pull patches through until all fouling removed. In past cleanings where wide dispersions occurred, there would be the trace pieces of lead showing on the brass brush and white rag. This has not been the case in Tests conducted in November and December, indicating that there was no lead fouling – or it was so slight as to not be noted. In today’s cleaning after the test there was not observation of lead fouling and the powder fouling was light (similar to last few tests).

It is quite evident that the patch is not going down range with the boolits. During the test on 16 December (Post #32) there was a light wind coming straight at the bench, and immediately after each shot I would get a “Light Sprinkle” of very fine paper. Today, the wind was very light, from the North East. There was clean snow accumulation of about 18”deep in front of the bench, and a light peppering of paper sprinkles could be seen in the snow from a foot in front of the barrel out about 10 feet. Paper pieces were probably 1/16 to 1/32 inches in diameter; they were NOT shred/strips. This would be consistent with the Paper Sprinkles/glitter encountered on the shoot in Post #32.

For the next Test, I intend to go back to a 0.305 boolit sizing using the Costco Parchment Paper Patch; but I will be extending the length of the patch to where the nose of the RCBS 165 Sil boolit is ~ 0.300 as seen in the pic below. There is also the base of a boolit to the left showing how the skirt on all of my PP’d boolits have been folded over to cover the base for those interested.


183161


Full Load Data is attached as a pdf.
183163

[MUSTANG]

Testing on 21st December started with great hope. For this test group; the paper patch was lengthened from 2.455 x 0.59 to 2.455 x 0.785. This allowed the patch to cover from the Ogive of the boolit down to the base with a skirt rolled over to cover the base. Doing this brought the patch coverage into the area that many posts across this site have advocated as the "Proper" method for Paper Patch coverage on a boolit. The following pic shows an RCBS 165 Sil lubed & seated boolit above a Paper Patched boolit for this test. One can see the patch extending to the Ogive, and looking closely that the Paper Patch boolit is slightly deeper set (2.660 compared to 2.665) than the top round. Had to seat these boolit's slightly deeper to ensure chambering as the 2.665 depth would be a "Crush Fit" on the paper.

183503

10 Rounds loaded for this test.

183502

After shooting the 10 rounds at the range and reviewing the target I was fairly disappointed. The group appearance as you can see below was on target; but open.

183504

At home I took the picture of the group and ran it through my ON TARGET software and was surprised when the group came up to be the 2nd best group size of this Test series on Paper Patching the RCBS 165 Sil Boolit. Lesson reinforced is that a deliberate approach to load development, consistency in approach and tools used, and effective records keeping is critical to quantifying results. If I had gone with my "Gut"; I would have developed a false bias.

Base on the limitations of two single 10 Round test groups; it looks as if the longer patch does not provide an accuracy advantage with my processes and materials. We'll hold that thought for future validation. Currently the testing on 6 December (Post # 23) has produced the best overall group; with today's test being the 2nd best 10 round group at 4.991 MOA; a 62% larger group.

Test data is attached as a PDF.

183505
Next test group will focus on a 0.302 sized RCBS 165Sil Boolit and a Vellum Paper Patch (.0029 thick) applied to it and sized in a .308 sizing die.

[Digital Dan]

You might want to consider a couple of different metrics in your pursuit.

-Use a bullet intended for paper patch, ie. smooth sides and of proper diameter. There be a dozen or more reasons to do that, grease grooves are not your buddy.
-Given that, stop sizing after patching. Hell, stop sizing entirely. If the geometry is right, it is not required. Sizing is not the friend of precision. Bullet = bore-bore+.001". Patched bullet = groove-groove+.001. End of discussion.
-As previously suggested, a softer alloy. Pure lead typically works up to around 2,000 fps. Lyman #2 or rough equivalent will put you in the ballpark of 3,000 fps most days. We're talking BHN in the 6-15 range here, emphasis on the lower end of things. Probably you can run with something in the BHN 12 neighborhood. For paper patch to work properly the bullet MUST obturate. Your alloy will require something in the range of 35K PSI minimum to obturate.
-Paper choice is critical. Apologies to those who walk different paths, if your version works that's fine. Proper thickness and rag content are the righteous path. Wet the patches and roll 'em up. It shrinks after drying. .0025" onionskin (9# w/25% or greater rag content) will shrink to .002" after drying. It's all about the geometry. A clue as to proper quality of paper: when the patched bullet is dry, the patch should be formed and cling to the bullet w/o coming unraveled from light handling. Use a very light wipe of 50/50 beeswax/Vaseline for lube, applied with your fingers. Confetti puffs when you shoot are good.
-Folding the bottom of the patch over the bullet base is good. Do not be generous in how much you leave hanging over. Just a smidge (1/4 bullet diameter) is all that is required. After wrapping, set the bullet on its base to dry. If it won't stand on it's own you have too much clutter on the base, make it less so. This cannot be emphasized too strongly. Bullet base form consistency is critical to achieving high precision. If your load/case geometry allows, use a card wad under the bullet base.
-I assume your bullet is a bore rider design. Stop patching the nose, or minor diameter above the shank.
It ain' that tough, quit bangin' yer noggin on the bench.

.44 Mag, loaded per the above, Ruger 77/44 (stock) with a 3 moa red dot sight....load date and firing date on the target. Looks like 8, but it's a 10 shot group. As you might imagine, it does better with a conventional scope, but hey, it's a hunting gun, not a paper puncher. The bullets are pure lead, MV ~1,600 fps.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/627b4656-cd5c-45f5-a12c-e336e1f16dcd_zpsi3ucunrq.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/photo%202%202_zps2588rqcx.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/photo%202%202_zps2588rqcx.jpg.html)


So simple a caveman can do it....

[MUSTANG]

28 December; Test group today was 3.948 MOA; better than achieved in post #34 (4.991 MOA) - but not as good as in post #23 (3.137 MOA). The paper patch today was Vellum Drafting Paper (.0029 thick) over an RCBS 165 Sil boolit sized to 0.302. Sized after Paper Patching in a Lee .308 Sizer die.

183710

Load Data is attached as a PDF.

183711

[MUSTANG]

Digital Dan provided some interesting comments/recommendations based on his personal experiences paper patching. It might be beneficial at this point in my thread to incorporate some thoughts and analysis of my efforts and direction based on his input in post #35 as well as other sources:



Paper Patching using Smokeless Powder

This thread is centered on attempting to achieve jacketed velocities using Paper Patched RCBS 165 Sil boolits. (171 Grains actual as cast Weight); WITH AN ACCEPTABLE ACCURACY LEVEL.
Pressures for these Paper Patched RCBS 165 Sil boolits will be similar to those experienced in jacketed loads.

A 175 Gr. jacketed bullet with 46 Gr of W760 yields ~ 40,300 CUP of pressure.
Velocity of above ~ 2,484 FPS.
At a future date I will Chronograph my RCBS 165 Paper Patch loads to get an actual velocity. Currently 24" of snow in front of Bench area at Range, may shovel some soon" But no one plows the road to the range, so even with 4 Wheel Drive Jeep; getting difficult to get up the road to the range now.








Grease Grooved boolits and paper patching.

This entire thread is dedicated to paper patching the RCBS 165 Sil boolit. Although many like Digital Dan, may experience better results with a smooth sided boolit; that’s outside of the scope of this thread.
My inspiration for this thread is based on a desire to shoot Jacketed Velocities with the RCBS 165 Sil boolit, similar to the numerous threads on the Cast Boolit Forum where a variety of Paper Patched grease groove cast boolits have been used to achieve good accuracy.
Ed Harris and the NRA articles on Smokeless Paper Patching back in the 1970’s are a foundation document. In their series they first tried to use straight sided (Turned Down) boolits with poor success. They then used .301 caliber cast boolits with light “lube Grooves” which resulted in better accuracy, thoughts were the light grease grooves provided a griping surface for the Paper Patch. This resulted in the Lyman 301618 and 301620 molds.
This testing may eventually determine that a single residual grease grove on the RCBS 165 Sil boolit is insufficient to “Grip” the paper patch to achieve near MOA or Sub MOA; but that’s down stream. I’ll resort to using a rasp to lightly knurl the boolit bearing as a surface to grab the Paper Patch area if nothing else works downstream.






Alloy hardness

There have been a couple of recommendations to use a softer alloy. I may cast some more RCBS 165 Sil boolits in a few weeks, I can look at Air Cooling a portion as my 96-3-1 alloy will result in a much softer boolit when air cooled, rather than the water dropped previously used which yielded 22.7 BHN. Then we can compare performance difference in hardness.
The NRA articles and numerous threads on this forum have focused on a harder boolit for greater velocities. The use of #2 alloy and linotype have been advocated in a variety of sources and posts for Paper Patched Boolits in the 2400 fps to 3200 fps applications. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, Third Edition, lists a 15 BHN for #2 Alloy; and a 22 BHN for Linotype. My current 22.7 BHN Quenched boolit is at Linotype hardness.






Paper Patch Sizing

The NRA articles found that sizing the Paper Patched boolit in a .308 Sizer was critical, particularly when firing in a .308 Winchester/7.62 x 51 caliber due to the throat. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, Third Edition, repeats this admonition.
As time goes by; we should see with the Testing of Paper Patching this boolit if this is a valid admonition; or if there are “Windows” where not sizing the patched boolit in a .308 might work also.





Next Test string will use an RCBS 165 Boolit, 22.7 BHN, sized to .302 , and Patched with 9lb Onion Skin Paper. Thanks to ClodHopper for mailing me a few sheets of 9 lb Onion Skin Paper for testing.

[Digital Dan]

Tail glued with Pergamano brand Pergo Glue (Find it on Amazon).

Stop doing that. Glue is the last thing you need in the mix.


This testing may eventually determine that a single residual grease grove on the RCBS 165 Sil boolit is insufficient to “Grip” the paper patch to achieve near MOA or Sub MOA;

You don't want the patch to grip anything. Lacking a clean release of all patch material when the bullet exits the bore you will not achieve your goal.


The NRA articles found that sizing the Paper Patched boolit in a .308 Sizer was critical, particularly when firing in a .308 Winchester/7.62 x 51 caliber due to the throat. The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, Third Edition, repeats this admonition.

If you're determined to make your particular bullet chamber and shoot you will need to size it. Last time a bullet was sized as much as you describe and produced MOA precision, Hell was frozen and the Devil was a regular kind of guy.

I respect your determination nonetheless and wish you all the luck in the world.

[725]

I'm not a paper patch expert but I've had very good luck with barely hard boolits sized at or under the bore size and a double wrap of copy paper. Sized under bore did better. Softer boolits did fine. Spit wet and rolled tight on a board with the tail end curled into a twist without much of any tail. Stacked on another board drilled to hold 'em point down 'till dry. I sized the wrapped boolit slowly with just a very little bore butter. (Bore Butter = muzzle loading lube) Best of luck in your quest. This stuff is fun to do.

[ShooterAZ]

Not an expert here either, having just got started. I have had pretty decent results with the RCBS 165 Sil in the 30-06. Sized to .308, two wraps wet on my table with green bar printer paper, lubed with BAC and final size to .311. My next project will be for my Mosin Nagant, and I plan on using the 311407 boolit. I have the boolits sized and wrapped, just waiting on my Lee 314 push through sizer from Midway. It's been fun learning here and trying stuff "outside the box". Obviously it takes a lot of experimentation and patience, but I enjoy it. Mustang, keep up the good work, and thanks for your efforts and reports.

[MUSTANG]

ShooterAZ:

What MOA for your RCBS 165 in 30-06 shot at 100 Yards? I ask about 100 yards because some are shooting at 25 yds, 50 yds, and extrapolating 100 yard groups; groups often do not hold at distance when tested against their 25/50 Yd efforts. My goal is for much longer ranges, so once a 100 Yd solution is achieved, then it's time for 200Yd, 300Yd, ...?

The longer case neck on a 30-06 and different throat may work differently compared to a .308 Winchester.

[ShooterAZ]

Mustang,

I started out with IMR 4064 powder at first, and was getting 4-6" groups from a bench at 100yds with a Rem 700, Leupold 4x14 scope. This rifle is capable of one 3/8-1/2" groups at the same distance with many of my jacketed loads. I switched to BLC-2 and was able to cut the groups roughly in half to 2-1/2 to 3" +/-. I was pretty happy with that considering that I'm just getting started paper patching. I think I can still do better with more load development. I have a lot of other powders that I want to try too. I tried the same loads in my 1903 Springfield that normally loves the 165 Sil (unpatched), and at quite a bit lower velocity like around 18-1900fps. My results were somewhat disappointing in the 1903. I have have a lot of different 30 cal molds to work with. I think I will work with the 311299 and 311407 next.

[oldblinddog]

I have had pretty decent results with the RCBS 165 Sil in the 30-06. Sized to .308, two wraps wet on my table with green bar printer paper, lubed with BAC and final size to .311.

Any target pics?

Have you tried any slower powders such as 4831 or RL22?

[ShooterAZ]

Sorry no target pics. I have not tried any 4831 or RL22 yet, but I do have both of them on hand.

[Digital Dan]

You gentlemen will find that powders on the slow side of burn rates for a given cartridge are your friend.

[oldblinddog]

^^^^^
This

[ShooterAZ]

Where does one find data for these slow burners? I do have IMR4831 and RL22. The slowest powder my manuals list for 7.62x54R is Varget. My Mosin Nagant is up next with a PP 170 gr. boolit.

[oldblinddog]

One method is fill the case to the base of the neck, weigh this charge and then back off by 10% for a starting load. The really slow powders won't develop enough pressure to get you into trouble. Or you can use data for a similar weight j-bullet if that is available and then work up/down as necessary. One resource I find valuable is a DuPont handout with loads for every IMR powder in each cartridge listed along with the associated pressures.

183920

You can make a usable load with whatever powder you have on hand. It may not be the best load, but it is usable. All data should be this way so that I/we can decide what is best.

[ShooterAZ]

That reminds me of something that my late uncle used to do. He had an old Win M70 in .270. He would pour H4831 into the case with a spoon and funnel until it reached the bottom of the neck, then seat the bullets. He never even weighed the charges. He took a lot of deer & elk with that gun/load.

[oldblinddog]

Yes, I have heard that load before also. But, with bigger cases(7mm Rem Mag, .338 Win Mag) you can't do that because now you are in the working range of the powder. It has to be slow powder/small case. A good example is the thread on 4831 in the .30-30:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?322532-4831-in-the-Remington-788-30-30

[MUSTANG]

2 January 2017:

Loaded 10 rounds using the RCBS 165 Boolit, 22.7 BHN, sized to .302 , and Patched with 9lb Onion Skin Paper. Still using the 45 Grains of W760 as the standardized powder for testing at this time. After the Patches were dry, I measured diameter and they measured from .307 to .3075 when dry. Figured this was going to be a problem area; but took them to the range to test anyway. Following is the results:

184206

Ten rounds fired; but only 5 hit the target. I suspected that I was not achieving full burn based on the lower recoil and sound for each shot. Looking at the target; it appears that the inconsistent pressure generated each shot may have resulted in stringing of shots. Not having the impact locations for the 5 missing shots makes drawing conclusions risky; but there does seem to be good left-right alignment; and the group is stringing up and down; not flying wildly across the target based on the sight picture location.

Looks like I may have a few weeks to deliberate and decide which direction to go with next testing sequences. The access road to the range I use has become unusable, even with our 4 wheel drive jeep. Got stuck on the road at the range and had to dig out of the snow, which is now deep enough that in places I am high centering the jeep. The range road is not plowed, I do not have a snow plow for the jeep; and I am unwilling to haul our tractor and snow blower up the mountain to clean the road to the range as I feel that is too dangerous/risky for me.

I'll be looking at other options for range use here in the Montana House; or have to wait until April when the melt off should be complete. If I settle on another range for this winter; I'll continue the effort this winter, if not I'll resume in the spring.

[Old Coot]

I do not understand why you are sizing your finished bullets so small. It has been my experience that the largest bullet (patched or plain) that will fill a FIRED and un-sized case neck gives the best accuracy.

I would not worry about raising pressures if your barrel is .308 in across the groves. You are shooting a lead bullet. The bullet will size down without raising pressures. Even factory ammo runs around .312" .
Brodie

[MUSTANG]

13 January 2017. We joined another private range club last week that keeps their access road plowed so my Wife and I can now get out to shoot during the heavier snow periods of winter. Unfortunately this range is more than twice the distance from the house so we will have fewer shooting opportunities as short term jaunts and windows of opportunity may not support going to this range.

Went got out to the range despite the -7° temps. Today's effort utilized the same alloy (96-3-1) as used in previous tests, but it is softer because these boolits are softer at 9.8 BHN as they were air cooled instead of water dropped to harden. Powder charge of 45 Grains W760 powder remained the same as previous tests.

During this period I fired four (4) strings of five (5) rounds of each paper patch type at 100Yards. Bitter cold with light wind coming into the face could have impact on group sizes, but we were bundled well and wearing balacavas' to reduce cold impact o shooting. It was cold enough that brass ejected after the shot hitting the deck melted the light snow on the ground and turned it into thick ice on the brass. After each 5 shot string, I ran a brass cleaning brush through the barrel to ensure a "Clean Barrel" for starting each paper patch type test of the day. Group sizes were:

Parchment 7.089 MOA
Onion Skin 2.363 MOA
Tracing 5.431 MOA
Vellum 5.629 MOA


A composite pic of the groups (Click to open the picture of the Groups):

186309


Will keep the data, but as we progress may have to re-shoot some of these and other variants to validate data, particularly when using 5 shot vs 10 shot test groups.

Strange that the Onion Skin performed much better than the Costco Parchment Paper. During previous tests the Costco Parchment paper achieved a 10 Round group at 3.137 MOA; and the Onion Skin Paper had 5 of 10 rounds miss the target and the remaining 5 rounds grouped at 5.773. Tremendous improvement for the Onion Skin paper patch; have to see if it can achieve similar performance in 10 round strings.

Some of the readers of this Thread have commented that a "Softer Bullet" is needed and will perform better. Not sure the data collected bears that thought out as results seem mixed with the limited data collected to date (see below), but we'll see as we progress.


Paper Patch - 22.7 BHN (10Rds) - 9.8 BHN (5Rds)
Onion Skin - 5.773 (5 missed Target) - 2.363
Parchment - 3.137 - 7.089
Tracing - 6.306 - 5.431
Vellum - 3.948 - 5.629


We may be able to interpret more as we collect more data; but there is a faint glimmer in the data above. It seems the harder/stronger papers (parchment and vellum) may perform better with harder oolits; but the softer boolits seem to be performing better with the softer/weaker(?) papers (Tracing and Onion Skin).



Outside the scope of this thread; aftertesting the paper patched loads above, I also shot 8 rounds of the softer 9.8 BHN boolits that had been checked with aluminum gas check, Tumble Coated in HF Red Powder Coat Powder and baked for 20 minutes at 400°, then air cooled. These 8 rounds with the same 45 Grain W760 Load achieved 2.481 MOA.

[MUSTANG]

26 Jan 2017:

Back to the range today. Results replicated performance experienced on 6 Dec 2016 (Post #23). Surprisingly both this test sequence and the post #23 resulted in a 3.137 MOA group each at 100 Yards. Steps for preparing today's test boolits were:



9.8 BHN
Sized RCBS 165 Sil to .308
Wrapped boolit using Vellum Drafting Paper ~ 0.029 thickness, dipped in egg white/water mixture, two wraps.
Rolled wrapped boolit in Cigarette Roller 10 Turns.
Air dried for ~ 24 hours. As wrapped ~ 0.319".
Sprayed wrapped boolits lightly with Teflon spray.
Sized boolits in 0.311 Lee die.
Sized boolits in 0.308 Lee die. Boolits measured 0.309 after sizing.
Loaded in neck sized with 0.308 RCBS neck expander plug. 45 Grains W760 Powder.




186308

[bearcove]

Read the first Sticky. DO what he says. You seem to always add unwanted variables. Wrong size, wrong paper, glue, AND a poor choice of bullet design to work with. Not meaning to be rude but you are set in your ways, and I don't think it's gonna get you there. Spend $80 and buy something like this.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=35-265P-D.png

[bearcove]

I don't want to be negative about what you are doing, you have put a lot of work into this and posted a lot of detailed info. I think you will get limited results from a bullet that is sized down to be patched. I only work with bullets that start out at the dia I want ie .001 over bore. Only size after they are patched to compress the paper a bit, with a paste wax for wood. Mine is old and high VOC and dries hard. It makes a hard jacket without soaking into the paper.

The old ideas were a starting place for where we are now.

I have a bunch of 16lb tractor feed paper if you want some Pm me and I'll send you some, It is the right thickness and strength for this.

[OverMax]

With all due respect:
deja vu.

[bearcove]

I want to say Mustang has been very thorough in his work, but I fear his choice of projectile may be dated. I can not fault that because I am now studying the work of a man named Howe.

[OverMax]

From the info I read in the Cast Pics site. It recommends the W-760_ Max> 42.0 grs with the Rcbs .308 165 gr. Silhouette.
1. 45 grain charge may be part of your problem. (to much powder for your RCBS Silhouette cast)
2. Since there is only one drive /grease band near the base of the your bullet. Try wrapping your bullet all the way up and slightly over the breaking edge of its tangent-ogive.
(I'll bet your bullet currently patched 2 wraps with the current .003 paper thickness and air dried. Calipered correctly measures near .326 dia. not .319.)

So IMHO Mustang.
Buy a Lee type push-thru resizer die. Its bore measuring >.300 or .3005 dia or order such a resizer die from Buckshot here on this C/B site.
Your Silhouette bullet when wrapped 2 full wraps with the paper your now using will air dry on its undersized .300 bullet. _at measurement >.312-or-.3125. You can shoot these P/P Silhouette's as they are in your 308 or resize to .311 if you choose to match em.

O/M Paper Wrap formula: .301 undersized 30 cal bullet. Papered wrapped twice with.002 thickness G/Bar_ .002 x 2=.004__ (x 3)= .012 overall __ .301 +.012 = .313 <this is my bullets calipered measurement time after time. I shoot them as they are in my 94 or can undersize the same patched bullets to .310 when there is a need to use. In my 1899 Savage.

[MUSTANG]

22 February 2017

Back to the range to resume the efforts on the RCBS 165 Sil. For this effort I reduced the drive bands in three steps. First reduction was from as cast to .308 in a Lee Sizer die, the 2nd step was reduction of the drive bands to .305 using an NOE sizer die, then the last reduction to .303 using an NOE sizer die. Boolit was wrapped in Costco Parchment paper, Paper Patch was ~ 2.455 inches long; and 0.59 inches wide. After patching, measured .310; sized to .309 using a Lee Sizer die; patched boolit lubed with Light coat of Lanolin (alcohol lanolin mix - Spray) on RCBS case lube pad. 45 Grains W-760 powder.

10 Round group was 3.029 MOA .

188913

During this session I duplicated all items as described below; but used 42.4 grains of H-4895. Not a single round out of 10 hit the 18" x18" target, in fact - one of the rounds hit a target adjacent ~22 inches off the aiming point. Looks like for the current effort; H-4895 is NOT a viable choice for my application.

In response to OverMax comments in post #58 above:


I selected 45 Grains of W-760 Powder because it fills the cases to the base of the neck when dropped from my RCBS powder meter. The testing conducted by Col.E.H Harris during the 1970's on Smokeless Paper Patching for .30 Cal cast boolits settled on a charge of 50 Grains of W-760 using a 170 grain Lyman 301XXX boolit with a 17 BHN, traveling at 2700 FPS from the muzzle. Various articles on Paper Patching can be found in the NRA Pamphlet Cast Bullets by Col H.E. Harris. (See pages 75 and 93 of 144 pages in the PDF electronic copy available from numerous Internet sites).

The two directions I'll be going in the near future will be increasing (not decreasing) the Charge of W-760 to 46, 47, 48, ..? grain levels; and back to the use of Teflon Spray lubrication on the Boolits. I also in the near future will try more Onion Skin Paper in the testing.



For ALL Readers; I appreciate all commenters observations and suggestions. My answering or not answering comments in the thread is based on my thoughts (or Non-thoughts) on direct impact to my experimentation. One of the tenants of the Scientific process is developing a thesis and the testing of that thesis through experimentation. Avoiding drifting off in other directions is a risk in collecting focused data. In this thread the Thesis might be described as "Develop a Paper Patch load and load process that will result in an RCBS 165 Sil Boolit shooting MOA accuracy at 2700 feet per second". Just as Thomas Edison found a thousand ways that would not work in making a Light Bulb, we are destined to find ways that do not work in our Boolit efforts.

[ShooterAZ]

Hi Mustang,

Thanks for doing the testing and posting your results.