Slugged my 137 year old 1873

[Babbott213]

So I got around to slugging the barrel on the 1874 44-40 today. I cleaned the barrel with Hoppes No. 9 and a bronze bore brush and then ran a dry cotton bore swab through it. I used lead round balls that measure .451" that I shoot from my two 1851 Navy's. First one came out to .437" but in very rough shape. Cleaned and ran another ball through and it was much better and I could actually see more of the rifling on it to measure by. That one measured out at .434". So I cleaned and ran a third ball just for good measure and this one came out real nice. The rifling was very distinct and it too measured out to be .434" as the last one. Problem is, not two rifling channels line up opposing each other so from rifling to rifling I'm not at a true across the diameter. So I rolled the ball between the bars of the micrometer and seen where the farthest spread was. Am I off, or do I need to measure in a different location? Here is a photo of the three slugs with the first on the left and the last on the right. I marked the rifling marks with sharpie.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161128/303f4f0c0ee01add8d685cde35374672.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Sounds like you slugged properly. I might suggest a soft hollow base boolit for your best chance at accuracy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[w30wcf]

My '73 has a .435" average barrel so it is very close to yours in size. Thankfully, the neck in my chamber is large enough to accept .436" bullets. Will your slugs fit into the fired cases after the crimp is removed?

I have seen where many of the original '73's had oversized barrels. I eventually learned thiswas not unusual when I had the opportunity to speak with George Madis at an Eastern Winchester Gun Show. In addition,as is common in some old Winchesters, the bore in my rifle is a bit rough. George explained that back in the pre-smokeless era (before1895) it was known that black powder and soft lead bullets would be accurate in varying bore diameters, so more attention was given to the rifle’s external appearance and less on controlling exact internal barrel dimensions.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Out of curiosity, I loaded some ammunition to replicate the factory ammunition of the late 1800's to see what kind of accuracy the original owner would have experienced with this Winchester and its oversized barrel.

I was pleasantly surprised....

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/1873%20.44%20W.C.F.%20black%20powder%2050%20yards% 20%20with%20notes.jpg

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/1873%202.jpg

w30wcf

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Problem is, not two rifling channels line up opposing each other so from rifling to rifling I'm not at a true across the diameter



I'm not surprised by the oversize bore, or that it does no harm with the sort of ammunition this gun was meant to fire. Someone who uses very hard cast bullets of .427in. just because a reference book gives that figure might well be disappointed.

The above puzzles me, though. It sounds like what you get with an odd number of grooves, giving a groove opposite a land - an advantage in the days when they slowly scraped one groove at a time, as a land supports the cutter better than the groove opposite. I suppose anything is possible in the early days, but I never heard of an 1873 having other than a six-groove barrel, with the grooves wide enough to get a caliper, though not a micrometer, into.

[Babbott213]

My '73 has a .435" average barrel so it is very close to yours in size. Thankfully, the neck in my chamber is large enough to accept .436" bullets. Will your slugs fit into the fired cases after the crimp is removed?

I have seen where many of the original '73's had oversized barrels. I eventually learned thiswas not unusual when I had the opportunity to speak with George Madis at an Eastern Winchester Gun Show. In addition,as is common in some old Winchesters, the bore in my rifle is a bit rough. George explained that back in the pre-smokeless era (before1895) it was known that black powder and soft lead bullets would be accurate in varying bore diameters, so more attention was given to the rifle’s external appearance and less on controlling exact internal barrel dimensions.

w30wcf



I haven't tried to fit the slugs into spent cases yet. I'm flying out of town for two weeks, so that will be on my to do list for when I get back. While I'm out, I'll look at the bullet selection from Missouri Bullet and see what my options are. I'll probably get some samples to make some test loads and start from there. All great info so far from everyone. Thanks!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Babbott213]

I'm not surprised by the oversize bore, or that it does no harm with the sort of ammunition this gun was meant to fire. Someone who uses very hard cast bullets of .427in. just because a reference book gives that figure might well be disappointed.

The above puzzles me, though. It sounds like what you get with an odd number of grooves, giving a groove opposite a land - an advantage in the days when they slowly scraped one groove at a time, as a land supports the cutter better than the groove opposite. I suppose anything is possible in the early days, but I never heard of an 1873 having other than a six-groove barrel, with the grooves wide enough to get a caliper, though not a micrometer, into.

Yeah, I just looked back on my other thread and from the photo taken looking down the bore it looks like I have 5 grooves instead of six. [emoji848][emoji848][emoji848][emoji848][emoji848]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Now that is unusual. Does it have the usual rollstamps to indicate an original barrel?

[ironhead7544]

The lead slugs from Lead Bullet Technologies that are made for barrel slugging are a lot easier to use. I dont like driving anything down a barrel. Well worth the money.

That rifle is beautiful.

[northmn]

You see the same thing in other older rifles. The original 38-55's were also famous for varying bore diameters. One reason they do not recommend shooting a 45-70 in a longer 45-90 chamber with black powder for instance is that the BP will slug up bullets to the chamber diameter. They were made in BP days and people using the available ammo with BP and soft bullets were happy with them. We have to complicate things.

DP

[ajjohns]

I may advise if you're going to buy-to-shoot, try Desperado bullets. They're soft (6-7bhn), have a flat base, and at least come in 200gr at .430 dia. BP or a load as I mentioned (I didn't come up with it, I got it on this forum) of 4227 and psb may just work excellent for you. It did for me and made my 73 one of the most accurate rifles I have period. For imperfections in the inner of the barrel, I'm convinced the psb does a fine job of helping that out. It is an extra step in the loading process, but is an easy one to do.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

You see the same thing in other older rifles. The original 38-55's were also famous for varying bore diameters. One reason they do not recommend shooting a 45-70 in a longer 45-90 chamber with black powder for instance is that the BP will slug up bullets to the chamber diameter. They were made in BP days and people using the available ammo with BP and soft bullets were happy with them. We have to complicate things.

DP

The other reason was that the early .45-90s had a faster twist, as they weren't required to stabilize the heavy military bullet. Later it was altered, at least in the 1886, to the same twist as the .45-90. I don't know about recommendation, but it certainly reflected what they knew people were doing.

Now I've seen the pictures in the OP's other thread. An off-centre bore shot, with the light a little tricky, can be deceptive. But it certainly looks like a five-grooved barrel.

It is a nice rifle, far from perfect in condition, but it isn't like it was a mere twentieth century Winchester. I think the bore, which probably gets better as you move away from atmospheric corrosion at the muzzle should permit useful accuracy. Serial numbers can be deceptive, but the chances are that it is an iron receiver, before they changed to steel, so it needs gentle treatment, but no more so really than any old 1873.

In places where there isn't stock varnish to be damaged, you could probably raise the dents a little with damp felt under aluminium foil, lightly ironed with a domestic iron.

[Outpost75]

If your rifle has a tight chamber neck, such that you cannot chamber cartridges assembled with bullets which are close to barrel groove diameter, Accurate Molds produces a heeled bullet mold for the .44-40 designated 43-200QL, which has an enlarged nose stop-ring in front of the crimp groove, which can be sized to fit your barrel, whereas the driving bands are a smaller .428" diameter, and so fit in tight necked chambers, and are unaffected by sizing, being lubricated only. The QL version of the bullet has a larger lube groove which is better suited for black powder than the standard Q version, intended for smokeless cowboy loads

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-200QL-D.png

[DougGuy]

I haven't tried to fit the slugs into spent cases yet. I'm flying out of town for two weeks, so that will be on my to do list for when I get back. While I'm out, I'll look at the bullet selection from Missouri Bullet and see what my options are. I'll probably get some samples to make some test loads and start from there. All great info so far from everyone. Thanks!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I would make sure before you order boolits that you can dig a thumbnail into them. I think you would be good with BHN11 or softer. Since most 44-40 die sets are meant for .425" ~ .427" boolits and your bore looks to be considerably larger than what will fit in the primed cases, obturation will be what will provide fitment in the bore so I would recommend using alloy that will allow this with the charges you plan to use.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If your rifle has a tight chamber neck, such that you cannot chamber cartridges assembled with bullets which are close to barrel groove diameter, Accurate Molds produces a heeled bullet mold for the .44-40 designated 43-200QL, which has an enlarged nose stop-ring in front of the crimp groove, which can be sized to fit your barrel, whereas the driving bands are a smaller .428" diameter, and so fit in tight necked chambers, and are unaffected by sizing, being lubricated only. The QL version of the bullet has a larger lube groove which is better suited for black powder than the standard Q version, intended for smokeless cowboy loads

That is worth knowing, although it is puzzling to know why they didn't make all of the bearing surface larger. If it is only a band, there is some chance that the .428in. part could go off-centre in bore or sizing die. Maybe they were afraid some intellectually gifted person would cast bullets as hard as he could, and fire them through the smallest .44-40 bore. I would find out first if a conventional groove-diameter bullet would chamber, and if it wouldn't, use that Accurate mould with that band soft and unsized.

I don't even know if current .44-40 dies use a rifle-style, pull-out neck expander button, or if the wall thickness of modern brass permits it. But I think it would be better than a push-in expander if you can

[w30wcf]

I may advise if you're going to buy-to-shoot, try Desperado bullets. They're soft (6-7bhn), have a flat base, and at least come in 200gr at .430 dia. BP or a load as I mentioned (I didn't come up with it, I got it on this forum) of 4227 and psb may just work excellent for you. It did for me and made my 73 one of the most accurate rifles I have period. For imperfections in the inner of the barrel, I'm convinced the psb does a fine job of helping that out. It is an extra step in the loading process, but is an easy one to do.

+1 Although I cast most of my own bullets, I have tried some different sources and, based on my experience, I would rate Desperado very highly.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

If your rifle has a tight chamber neck, such that you cannot chamber cartridges assembled with bullets which are close to barrel groove diameter, Accurate Molds produces a heeled bullet mold for the .44-40 designated 43-200QL, which has an enlarged nose stop-ring in front of the crimp groove, which can be sized to fit your barrel, whereas the driving bands are a smaller .428" diameter, and so fit in tight necked chambers, and are unaffected by sizing, being lubricated only. The QL version of the bullet has a larger lube groove which is better suited for black powder than the standard Q version, intended for smokeless cowboy loads

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-200QL-D.png

+1 Ed's bullets worked great in my oversized '73. :-D The driving band in the front and the bore ride in the rear produced good accuracy at 1,200 f.p.s.

w30wcf

[Babbott213]

Here's an interesting video I ran across on YouTube. I plan on trying this out when I return home in a couple of weeks. Sounds logical. Thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ut9SRf2Hbo&feature=share


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wayne Smith]

Your fired cartridges look almost like straight wall cartridges - almost no neck left. This suggests you have plenty of room in the chamber to chamber boolits that will fit your bore. Something to check on, anyway.

[Catshooter]

To measure a bore with an odd number of lands/grooves, wrap the slug (after it's driven through the bore) in a piece of paper, mic the slug/paper, and subtract the thickness of the paper times two. Or if the paper isn't stiff enough, us a thin feeler gauge.


Cat

[Babbott213]

Cat, see the video I posted just above your reply. [emoji6]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Babbott213]

Ok, so I'm back home off my trip and I cast myself up some slugs using a 45 Colt case. Slugged my barrel again and I took a sharpie and counted the tops and bottoms of each groove and I get 5 on both. I know the photo of the inside of my barrel looks to be 6, but the slug is showing 5. I used the feeler gauge trick and I used a .002" shim and wrapped around the slug good and tight and then measured and I came up with .433 - the .004". Any thoughts on my process? http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161213/3a71a81be8e7e1b4c69d4cbc5ff1a21c.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[w30wcf]

Welcome back! Hmmm.... I took another look at your pic of the rifling and can see that it is not clear if there is a groove at about 7:00 in the pic. In the grooves that are visible, they appear to be opposite of each other. Are you saying that the .433 - .004 = .429" groove dia or is .433 the groove diameter?

If there is a groove missing, I would not think that would be an issue affecting accuracy if a .434" (or .430 if .429) dia. bullet would fit into the fired cases.

Note:, Starline & Winchester brass will accept .002" larger diameter bullets than Magtech brass...at least mine do.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161125/fe6e25859ed24ce3b79d92501464979f.jpg

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Actually.....looking at the bore further, it appears that there is no distinct land at 3:00.....only a couple of faint lines with no projection like there is on the other visible lands.


w30wcf

[Babbott213]

w30wcf, it measured out at .437" then minus the .004" is actually .433". The slug has five distinctive grooves. The above photo that I took down the barrel does seem to be distorted a bit and I'm wondering if it's from the bore light making it look like that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[w30wcf]

Ok, .433, thank you. What is the average o.d of a fired case neck?

w30wcf

[Multigunner]

The photo of the bore is taken at an angle which confuses what you've been seeing due to reflection. Taking that into account you should be able to count the five lands easily enough. The angle that the light hits one land makes it look a bit as if it were a groove instead. That's a common optical illusion. A good example is the illusion of a rotating mask of a human face, it can appear to be a positive image rather than a negative or vice versa according to the point of view due to shifting shadows.

[Babbott213]

Ok, .433, thank you. What is the average o.d of a fired case neck?

w30wcf

I checked the ID of a fired case and they measure from .426"-.429". I didn't think to check the OD. I'll do that when I get back out to my Dog House. Those were from Magtech cases as well. I did check the bullet diameter of the three bullets I pulled before I bought the gun and I got some interesting reads. These are 200 grain bullets. .415", .424", .425". I have a box of Hornady cowboy loads that I haven't checked yet. I plan on taking a few of them down and doing some measuring as well as firing at least a dozen and see how they do. As soon as I get my dies in, I'll start more experimenting and order some sample bullets as well to work with. I guess now is where I need to get myself a Chronograph too. Love learning more about this old round and gun.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Babbott213]

Ok, .433, thank you. What is the average o.d of a fired case neck?

w30wcf

w30wcf, the OD of a Magtech fired case was .445". I pulled a bullet from those Hornady bullets. The Hornady cowboy loads I picked up are 205gn and boy the cases really threw me off when I pulled one out. I took a photo to compare against the Magtech. The Magtech is on the left and the Hornady is on the right. Almost looks like a straight walled case. Anyway, the Hornady bullet has a diameter of .426" and it's a straight sided bullet with no grooves. The case had little to no crimp as it took one hit with the impact puller to get the bullet out.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161215/672ac65b1a1566b9e0b6a27681715cce.jpg

Hope to fire some tomorrow just to see how they do. Plus, my trigger finger is getting itchy. [emoji57][emoji57]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[w30wcf]

A couple of years ago I was curious about the current factory offerings of .44-40 ammunition so I sold a few things to fund my little project. Long story short, the ammunition loaded with swaged softer bullets were more accurate than those loaded with hard cast bullets. The test rifle was my Marlin Cowboy which has a .428" groove diameter. Magtech proved to be the most accurate followed by Hornady.
The chart in the following link has the data including bullet dia. and hardness. It is located in the Winchester 1873 forum at Cas City.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,46913.0.html

Since the bullets in the Magtech and Hornady are somewhat soft, perhaps they will bump up enough to give somewhat accurate shooting in your larger .433" barrel. There will likely be some blow by with some powder gas escaping past the bullet. If they don't bump up enough they might keyhole.

Ideally, though, for best results, the bullet should fit the barrel. Soft lead undersized bullets pushed by b.p. will adapt aok just like they did when your rifle was made.

I did not try firing any of the Magtech or Hornady ammunition in my oversized '73 (.435"). Perhaps I should have just to see what would happen. I guess the memory of an earlier experience had an influence. Back in the late 1990's I had purchased a box of Winchester Cowboy ammunition in anticipation of one day owning a '73 Winchester.

At that time Winchester was using .428" diameter hard cast bullets in their cowboy ammunition. They produced some beautiful keyholes from my Winchester's oversized barrel. Thus began the search for handloads that would produce accuracy from that vinage Winchester '73.

w30wcf

[Babbott213]

Thanks for the information w30wcf. I'm soaking it all in. I'm just gonna take it slow and easy. And hopefully write everything down so I can remember. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BigEyeBob]

did you slug from the muzzle or strip the rifle and slug from the breech , I ask because I want to do both of my Winchesters a 1910 vintage 92 and an 1898 73 .
The 92 shoots good with Winchester jwords factory 200gn ammunition,but Im loathe to shoot jwords through the 73 which hasnt been fired in 60 -70 odd years.Both are in excellent condition ,with the 73 I would say is as near factory new as one could hope for.

[w30wcf]

Babbott213,
Good luck today. I just took a case neck o.d. measurement with .430" bullets...
Hornady & Winchester .443"
Starline - .444"
R-P .......- .445"
Magtech - .447"

Different lots might have slightly different neck thicknesses but based on the above, your Hornady brass would allow the use of larger diameter bullets than the Magtech.


w30wcf.

[TXGunNut]

Nice rifle, should be a shooter with the right boolit & load.

[Multigunner]

Could the oversized bores mentioned have been aggressively lead lapped by a previous owner to remove pitting?

I know nothing about paper patching other than what I've read on this board but seems to me it might be an option.

A cupped base or hollow base might work if you can find a mold for such.

I broke down a relic .25-20 Winchester cartridge awhile back and found the lead bullet had a very deep cupped base. Seems like this sort of bullet was fairly common in the old days.

[Babbott213]

Could the oversized bores mentioned have been aggressively lead lapped by a previous owner to remove pitting?

I know nothing about paper patching other than what I've read on this board but seems to me it might be an option.

A cupped base or hollow base might work if you can find a mold for such.

I broke down a relic .25-20 Winchester cartridge awhile back and found the lead bullet had a very deep cupped base. Seems like this sort of bullet was fairly common in the old days.



Multigunner, I don't think that the barrel has been messed with as far as I can tell. But, I'm in no way an expert in it either. The barrel looks like it had been years since it was fired last the previous owner had never fired it since he had taken possession of it. I've got some .436" bullets coming to me to try out and I'll probably try to locate some cupped based soft bullets as well to try. It's in no way going to be a daily shooter, but I would like it to be a good shooting gun when it is shot. If the gun is ever deemed not a $2,000 gun, then I might consider having the barrel re-lined to specs. I'm thinking about spending the money and having a Cody Letter run on the serial numbers and see just what comes up anyway. It's a 137 year old rifle and I'd like to learn more of its early life anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Babbott213]

Hope everyone had a Merry Christmas. I was able to load up 10 rounds of 44-40 today. I bought a sample pack of .430" cast 200 grain bullets to try out in this old girl. I pushed one of the bullets down the barrel and it was pretty tight going. It actually made some nice grooves in the bullet unlike the Magtech bullets which came in at .427-.428". Those I was able to just push them by hand with my rod. These .430" I had to tap all the way through with my hammer. I posted a photo of the .430" bullet after I ran it through the barrel. I went ahead and loaded up 10 rounds to try out on Monday. I loaded with Trailboss and I'm starting out at 5.0 grains for a light load. I'll see how they shoot and then go from there. Loving playing with this round and gun.


. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161226/3b7d61ce8f6b916a4acd6e55e31bf991.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[w30wcf]

Howdy Babbott213,
Any updates about your adventure with your neat vintage 1873?

w30wcf

[Babbott213]

Howdy Babbott213,
Any updates about your adventure with your neat vintage 1873?

w30wcf

No, sorry I've been absent. After the first of the year my travel work schedule is busy, busy with trade shows and teaching training classes. I hope to be back on it late March or early April. But as soon as I do, I'll be back on here reporting back. Leaving out for Tampa in the morning for a week then off to LA for a week and then across the pond to the U.K. For a week. Looking forward to getting back on it though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Having worked with 5 1892's in 44 WCF dating from 1893 - 1927 have to write all that you have found so far is rather average.
Winchester produced rifles / carbines that would function under all sorts of bad conditions. If it will not fire it is just an expensive club. Accuracy was not the primary issue. 4 inch groups at 100 yards would drop any corn cruncher, burro or two legged predator with well placed shots. Function as a repeater was primary.

Plus there was BP fouling to deal with. Solution was fat grooves vs. small diameter near pure lead bullets that easily obturated to the groove diameter whether it was fouled or not.

So with our 5 92's 200-220 grainers are cast with 40-1 sized at .429 - .430 depending on the chamber. Some chambers are just fatter. These bullets always get fatter when kicked in the rump with 35-36 grains of Goex 3F with a cereal box wad under the cast. That load is our "test" load for accuracy with each barrel. That then becomes our standard of accuracy to match with smokeless which seldom happens. Can get close but sure do end up trying a lot of loads and burning mucho smokeless.
Easiest to match accuracy of the 3Fwas the 1927 made model 92 which is a real "short rifle". It has the best bore / chamber we have come across.

No matter which direction you head with that nice Model 92 it will all be a fun walk through history.
Mike in Peru

[northmn]

Mike, I find your results interesting. There is an individual on the Marlin Forum that tested his 44-40 with BP. He had read that Winchester claimed the original 44-40's could be shot accurately 30 times without cleaning. His load was Swiss 2f but 3f would burn cleaner also. I have been getting the bug to get a 73 Clone in 44-40 and have thought about BP loads for the rifle. I already have the Lyman 44 mold that was intended for the caliber and various sizing dies. I had one once in a pistol. Those older rifles intrigue me. The 44-40 was more popular than it should have been.

DEP

[Ithaca Gunner]

As for the rifling grooves, Winchester made barrels with both 5 and 6 groove rifling. My 1894 Sporting rifle in .30WCF made in 1898 has 6 groove rifling. My 1894 SRC in .38-55 also made in 1898 has 5 groove rifling.

[w30wcf]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?265478-My-44-40-Black-Powder-Journey

[missionary5155]

Greetings w30wcf
Remember reading that time back and thank you for linking it ! Have looked at those Big Lubes. Would be a ticket for our rifle length barreled 44 WCF.
Mike in Peru

[northmn]

OK you 30WCF you did it here. Started looking for that posting on the Marlin site and could not find it, but I sure remembered it. Great posting. I have shot BP in 45-70 Single shots and went through the lube issues. Been looking at new made 44-40's and that article made the itch worse.

DP

[w30wcf]

northmn,
On the MarlinOwners site it is in the team .44-40 section of the 1894 forum. Hope you find your 44-40 in the near future.

Having some 44-40 black powder fun at a Lever Action Jubilee a few years ago :D
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Leverguns/44-40bp.jpg

w30wcf

[northmn]

My memory is not as bad as I thought then, which is kind of a relief when you get older. I have a bit of money I can spend coming up and keep thinking I should splurge a bit and spend a little of it on something like that. The LGS has Winchester 73's in stock but in either 357 or 45 Colt, not in 44-40. If I am going to spend that much I want the real combination. I have a Rossi in 357 which is fine, but a 73 screams either 44-40 or 38-40. While it seems nit picking the 73 was a BP rifle and the 44-40 is designed around BP use. I am not so concerned about getting 30 shots without cleaning but it would be nice to be able to shoot a few rounds in a row. I had a 44-40 pistol once many years ago and still have the Lyman bullet mold for it. It would be a fun cartridge to play with.

DEP

[missionary5155]

Greetings northmn
Just did a search at GB and there are no less than 85 NIB 1873 44 WCF's for sale. One ends in 22 hours at $900 with no bidders.
Mike in Peru

[NorthMoccasin]

Interesting thread! I have an original Marlin 44/40 that I use a duplex load of 3gr AA5744 and 27gr FFg capped with a cork wad ( press the case mouth on 1/8 sheet cork) and the Lyman 429 or the RCBS 44-200, lubed with Lyman Gold. You can shoot it all day with 1" -2" accuracy @ 50 yd. and in makes nice blue clouds of smoke. Old time target shooters in the 1890 to 1930 time period used similar loads all the time. Several duplex loads are listed in the original Lyman cast bullet handbook. IIRC, Ned Roberts spoke of them in his writings.

[w30wcf]

NorthMoccasin,
Nice! :D I have used duplex loads in the past and will to some degree in the future. When one owns a vintage rifle that has a rough bore, and wants to shoot black powder, they will find that accuracy will degrade as the black powder fouling builds up in the pits and valleys.

Using bullets that carry more lube and using the less fouling powders like Olde E. and Swiss will help maintain accuracy longer, but eventually (after about 25 rounds in my '73) accuracy will begin to go south.

If one wants to shoot a box of 50 rounds without cleaning, in a vintage rifle with a rough bore, then duplex loading is the way to go. (Either that, or use one of the B.P subs.)

I use RL7 because a capacity load is plenty safe in a '73, based on pressure testing done by Hercules / Alliant. I use 6 grs. followed by 30 grs. of black powder. Works great in my '73's rough bore. :D

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Babbott213,
Here is a bullet that can be ordered at .433" diameter that would fit your barrel. :D
It is a bit heavy at 230 grs., but should work very well slower burning powders.

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-nei-248-230gr-swc-gc/

https://www.montanabulletworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/DSC3062-2-44Mag-NEI-230GR.-SWC-GC-420x525.jpg

I think I may order some and try them in my oversized '73.......

w30wcf

[Babbott213]

Thanks w30wcf! I'll have to check them out. Still haven't gotten to fire any of the bullets that you sent to me yet. Been traveling a lot. Just got back from a U.K. trip and heading to Seattle for two weeks on Tuesday. Hope to get back on it after April. Work travel should be slowing down a bit by then.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[w30wcf]

babott213,
I did order the bullets and have some rounds loaded with RL-7 to test in my oversized 73when the weather gets nicer. I did find that I needed to trim the cases to 1.28" to keep the oal to 1.59".

travel safe.

w30wcf

[Babbott213]

Thanks for the info w30wcf. I'm still on the road. Stuck here in South Carolina for a few more days and then on down to New Orleans for a few days before going home for a few days. Past four weeks I've slept in my bed one night between flights. Was looking at a couple 1873's tonight actually. Will be glad to get some time home so I can load up some test loads for the old girl. I'm getting the itch kinda bad now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[w30wcf]

If I get a chance next week I'll put a dozen or so in the mail to you.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Had a chance to try the https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/44-mag-nei-248-230gr-swc-gc/ in my oversized 1873.
They worked great!



193583

w30wcf

[Babbott213]

I'll have to check them out. I'm up in Canada now to teach a training class and then I'll have another class in Jersey in two weeks. After that, I should have about a month and a half of work from home. Hope to get back on trying out some loads then. Can't wait, it's been too long.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[w30wcf]

Howdy
Just wondering how things are progressing..?

[Babbott213]

W30wcf, very slowly right now. I'm still on the road. I was in Kansas City all last week through Sunday and then flew into Houston this morning and will not return home until late Wednesday night and then possibly have to head over to Georgia on Thursday. Then next week I'm in Seattle till the end of June. Right now I'm hoping July might just be me slow travel month, but I'm not holding my breath right now. I have all the bullets that you sent all ready and I'm going to load a few of each and start doing some test with them just as soon as I can.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk