This Has Me Worried. Broken BLK Brass

[BulletFactory]

Ok, I shot 70 rounds today, have about 300 through the gun. When I got home and started looking at my brass, I found this case, and I dont know what to think really.

BCM BCG BCM 9" fluted barrel. pistol gas. CMT upper

The load is 14.5gr H-110 not a compressed load. I am using the Accurate Molds 31-170BG mold. OAL is 1.900" and I'm using WSP primers. Once fired, converted from .223. This one was stamped AGUILLA 223 REM
(THe Accurate mold doesnt have a point, so it doesnt feed well, Im replacing it with a 150gr NOE spire point gc mold when I get the money. )

I would buy another one of Toms molds in a half second, if he would make a pointed nose. I am looking forward to getting a new .40-160b mold from him soon as Im done with the blackout project. ;)

http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t557/The_Prodigal_Sun/300%20blackout%20neck%20damage%20001_zpsexzkwwco.j pg (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/The_Prodigal_Sun/media/300%20blackout%20neck%20damage%20001_zpsexzkwwco.j pg.html)

http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t557/The_Prodigal_Sun/Blackout%20Pistol%20024_zpskxkhbjik.jpg (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/The_Prodigal_Sun/media/Blackout%20Pistol%20024_zpskxkhbjik.jpg.html)

[BulletFactory]

http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t557/The_Prodigal_Sun/blackout%20primer%20002_zpsepjdrz1v.jpg (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/The_Prodigal_Sun/media/blackout%20primer%20002_zpsepjdrz1v.jpg.html)

http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t557/The_Prodigal_Sun/blackout%20primer%20001_zps97hmgcor.jpg (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/The_Prodigal_Sun/media/blackout%20primer%20001_zps97hmgcor.jpg.html)

[odfairfaxsub]

Looks like the pistol primers are holding up. Man head scratch about what's causing mouths to disapear

[Southern Son]

Do you anneal the brass after necking up?

[BulletFactory]

No I dont anneal these. I dint think the slight shoulder warranted it, but now Im thinking I should.

When I converted 30-06 to .308, I did anneal, because it was such a large physical change to the brass.

[buckshotshoey]

Do you anneal the brass after necking up?

Was thinking the same thing. Just wondering if annealing would be better before or after. If done before, work hardening might bring it back to proper hardness.

Oh.....and LOVE your supressor!

[Omega]

Anneal your brass, and put some pile (velcro) on the brass deflector. Your brass is being work hardened when you resize the case mouth. Most 300Blk brass gets dented by the brass deflector if not cushioned a bit.

[BulletFactory]

What suppressor? The dragon?

The gun is called "Dragons Breath" And it looks amazing being fired at night.

http://www.spitzlead.com/

[BulletFactory]

Anneal your brass, and put some pile (velcro) on the brass deflector. Your brass is being work hardened when you resize the case mouth. Most 300Blk brass gets dented by the brass deflector if not cushioned a bit.


Ok good idea.

I have glued a piece of leather on the center section of the gas port door (Psalm 144:1) so it doesnt smack the lower.

[buckshotshoey]

What suppressor? The dragon?

The gun is called "Dragons Breath" And it looks amazing being fired at night.

http://www.spitzlead.com/

Yea. Bad a**!

[dragon813gt]

Brass should be annealed after all other processes have been done. If a case fails you want it to happen during forming, not when you fire them.

How much does that flash hider weigh? It doesn't look to be the lightest thing.

[bstone5]

To be sure it would be best to anneal before and after forming the brass. The before will make the forming easy on the brass and the after will take any work hardening out while doing the forming.
After firing five times the necks should be annealed again. On the belted cases I anneal after three reloads, this brass is always head spaced on the shoulder not the belt so the brass will last a long time without case head separation.

[BulletFactory]

Im not exactly sure about the weight, but it isnt vet heavy.

[castalott]

Foolish Question... You didn't have any fired cases 'catch' in the gun... I mean the action closed on a partially ejected empty case. I've seen 308s with the mouth pushed back like that... but not gone like that..


just a shot in the dark...

[243winxb]

On bullet seating, the case mouth was bent inside the case mouth. On firing, it went else where. Flare/bell the case mouth more before seating. Thats my guess.

[BulletFactory]

Foolish Question... You didn't have any fired cases 'catch' in the gun... I mean the action closed on a partially ejected empty case. I've seen 308s with the mouth pushed back like that... but not gone like that..


just a shot in the dark...

Honestly, Im not sure. Since I was setting up the adjustable gas block today. I dont think it was a foolish question, it was actually a pretty insightful one.

[runfiverun]

see post-15.
I have folded down a couple of cases like that in the loading process.

[yondering]

I'm betting on post #15 as well, caused by not flaring the cases before seating.

Also, judging from the loaded round in the first pic - that's way too much crimp for lead bullets. Ease that off to just take the flare out of the case, but make sure your cases have enough neck tension to prevent set back.

Feeding that flat nose bullet shouldn't be a problem with a little massaging of the feed ramps. Speak up if you need some info on that and are inclined to give it a shot.

[Strtspdlx]

Not to take this thread off topic but I thought to work harden you had to apply substantial heat to a metal. Also when necking the brass isn't it just a die to form the neck?



Was thinking the same thing. Just wondering if annealing would be better before or after. If done before, work hardening might bring it back to proper hardness.

Oh.....and LOVE your supressor!

[BulletFactory]

Work hardening occurs when you bend the metal repeatedly. When you bend a paperclip till it breaks, you have work hardened that till it became brittle.

Correct me if Im wrong guys, sometimes I miss.

[dragon813gt]

Work hardening occurs when you bend the metal repeatedly. When you bend a paperclip till it breaks, you have work hardened that till it became brittle.

Correct me if Im wrong guys, sometimes I miss.

You're correct. Forming this case is easy. But since you're cutting off the existing neck you are into a part of the case that wasn't annealed previously. Some like to anneal doing any work. I do it as the last step because cases that fail during forming will fail when fired. This isn't a complex conversion where you have to anneal to keep the cases from failing.

[jblee10]

I don't think you folded the mouth during bullet seating. I think you would have felt it, and there would still be some marks on the case after firing. Once fired brass would be hard and brittle in this area. Also, it may be stretched if subjected to excess headspace. But your pictures show no evidence of that. That is USUALLY further down toward the case head anyway. Do any of your other cases show dings on the mouth from ejection? They may be hard enough that they show very little bending, and just break instead. I think annealing will fix the problem. I anneal BLK before forming, but it sounds like annealing after forming works just fine. It may even be better.

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

If I'm understanding this correctly, this was just ONE piece of brass that was like this? If so, I wouldn't give it another thought. If it keeps happening, I'd try corrective measures.

[BulletFactory]

I think I found the issue. It wasnt folded in, I would have seen it. Not trying to be bold, but this is a new gun, 250rds, and Im in load development, so I am watching things very carefully at this stage.

The bullet diameter is .312, and after several rounds, a ring of lead forms in the chamber. Every now and then, I had to use the forward assist to get it to fully chamber. I hadnt isolated the problem yet. I think it was self clearing now and then, and would build up again. I was measuring bullets, case dimensions, gas checks, bullets checked, bullets unchecked, neck diameter, chamber diameter, and was even turning the necks in a neck uniforming tool. I had taken the upper off, and checked the bore, anything I could think of.. Well, last night, I was looking into the chamber area, and thought, "this doesnt look right" and ran a brush through from the muzzle first, which I almost never do. And there it was...A lead ring.

That would explain a lot !

A few years ago, I was trying to load for my first gun, an XD.40 sub, and had this problem. I'd started a thread called "Chamber Shearing". I found these little lead rings in the chamber, they were keeping it from going into battery. It was a very in depth thread, you could learn a lot there. Geargnasher really got it figured out, and I still thank him (and others) for their thought, time and input in the thread. I ended up getting a custom expander made from someone here, but I forgot who that was. It goes in the LEE powder through die, and Im still using it. And a custom push through sizing die which came out to .4015, after a little work.

Anyways, the bullets were just a little big and as they were starting to enter the throat area, would shear off just a tiny bit of lead, causing a buildup where the case should rest for correct headspace in a pistol. My blackout is doing this to me now.

I think that getting a LEE custom sizer at .309.

Would clear this up in the blackout?

What do you think?

[BulletFactory]

I had zero leading in the bore, but the BCG was so caked with lead, I had to hold the bolt in a vice in order to yank the bolt out of the carrier. I had to take the gas rings out of the bolt and lightly sand the lead off of each one with 600 grit paper. I had to wire brush the bolt because there was such a heavy layer of lead "soldered" to it.

Is this a side effect of the same problem, or something new???

Yes Jayhawk, it was just one piece of brass.

[runfiverun]

I'm kind of surprised you can even chamber a 312 boolit.
in my bolt guns I can't even chamber LC brass with a 310 boolit I have to either turn the necks or use different brands of brass.
switching to a smaller diameter boolit could help, a little harder alloy could help also.

[dragon813gt]

If you have to use the forward assist there is a problem. Don't force the bolt home and make it even worse. I omitted the FA from my last build because it's not going into combat. My life doesn't depend on it so I don't want to make a problem worse.

[BulletFactory]

It did help me isolate the problem though.

ETA All of my guns might go into combat someday. Thats what the Second Amendment is for.

[popper]

Definitely pad the deflector. I sometimes get a scrunched neck when sizing - the ball removes it - so you don't see it. As it is a formed case, could have been a bad one to start. That boolit needs to be sized to bore to get it to feed and not leave the lead ring. BO has a long throat before the lands, your ogive is scraping the edge of the bore. 312 is way big for BO, my loose neck takes 310 and tight is 308. All my moulds are FN and feed fine - you need to play with the OAL some.

[BulletFactory]

When annealing for the .308, I used a temp crayon and spun the brass in a drill, the dropped them in water. I was always concerned about doing it wrong. I actually hated annealing because of that.

What method would you guys recommend? Im not liking the water pan/tip over method, cant get even heat that way.

Im not buying an annealing machine, Im broke. Pretty much have to use whats on hand.

[JRPVT]

Also betting on post #15. Work hardening means just that. Whether you bend it, push it, pull it, hit or work it in any way, it puts stress into the structure. Heating brass relieves that stress, annealing. Which is why many shooters only neck size their brass, it will last a long time.

So, flare the brass a hair more and gently touch it with a chamfer tool. Then anneal, load them up. Dave

[dragon813gt]

Socket in a drill if you don't want to buy an annealing machine. You will not have repeatable results this way. Don't get me wrong, it works. But each case will be annealed slightly differently. This is the method I used until I bought a machine.

Water is not needed for the process. All it does is allow you to handle the cases quicker. As soon as you remove heat it stops. It won't make it's way down to the case head to destroy it. This is assuming you didn't get the neck to a cherry red state.

There are a bunch of affordable annealers available now. I have an Annealeez. I think Mike's Reloading Bench sells them. There are a couple more of these designs available.

Here is mine doing its thing: http://s198.photobucket.com/user/dragon813gt/media/TimeToMakeAmmo/D0435E58-D1DC-4E32-BA77-130B64B89F8A_1.mp4.html

[high standard 40]

When I saw the picture, I had an idea of what was the cause and was going to post my thought but I see 243winxb beat me to it.

[yondering]

Careful with those lead rings, and continuing to fire more rounds with a ring already there. I think there are several potential causes for this, and sometimes they could raise pressure dangerously.
Sizing too large, as you mentioned, can do it, as can using lead alloy that is too soft for the load. Inadequate lubrication can do it as well; not all powder coating is equal and some is not as slick as others.

Regarding the lead build up in your bcg - is that a plain base powdercoated bullet you're using for supersonic loads? If so, that's the problem - you really need gas checks for supers in a gas gun. Some guys will swear it doesn't happen, but localized gas cutting can and does happen as the bullet base passes the gas port, blasting lead into the gas system as you've discovered. You should be fine with subsonics plain based, but the high pressure of supers is a problem in this regard, and accuracy suffers too. Excessive crimp can also scrape the coating off and expose lead that gets in the gas system.

I use a deep socket in a drill for annealing; stuff some paper towel in the socket so the cases sit in it with the right amount of shoulder sticking out. Don't heat the brass until you see red, that's too far. If you watch carefully in good light, the brass changes appearance slightly at the right point for annealing; the surface takes on a "melted wax" appearance, almost like it's wet. Remove the flame right at that point; with my torch it's about a 2 or 3 count to get there with most cases.

[BulletFactory]

I stayed away from the gold rings too. ;)

I am using gas checks on them.

Harbor freight powder coat.

I would really like to continue casting for this thing. Buying copper jacketed is equivalent to admitting defeat. :-|

Can I shoot PC through the AR without screwing up the BCG every couple hundred rounds?

[Omega]

I stayed away from the gold rings too. ;)

I am using gas checks on them.

Harbor freight powder coat.

I would really like to continue casting for this thing. Buying copper jacketed is equivalent to admitting defeat. :-|

Can I shoot PC through the AR without screwing up the BCG every couple hundred rounds?HF PC is OK, black is the only one I have heard some have issues with, but no solid evidence that the issues were due to the PC. Your BCG should not be affected, if any issues it would be your chamber throat.

[yondering]

I stayed away from the gold rings too. ;)

I am using gas checks on them.

Harbor freight powder coat.

I would really like to continue casting for this thing. Buying copper jacketed is equivalent to admitting defeat. :-|

Can I shoot PC through the AR without screwing up the BCG every couple hundred rounds?

Yes, but in my experience - the Hobo Freight powder coat and the excessive crimp aren't doing you any favors. It really is worth buying better powder, and even expensive powder is pretty cheap since you get so many rounds coated. RAL 6018 Yellow Green from PBTP is a good choice if you need a suggestion; I use it in 300 Blk, 30 Herrett, and 308 AR rifles up to ~2800 fps with great results and no lead buildup in the bcg or anywhere else.

[BulletFactory]

Oh I fixed the crimp thing.

[ironhead7544]

I would get an M die for the Blackout with cast bullets.

Try a magazine that is made for the 300 Blackout. That may cure your feeding problems. Varying COL might also work.

[John Boy]

Once fired, converted from .223. This one was stamped AGUILLA 223 REM
* When cases are reformed, the brass is work hardened
* Then if the cases are not annealed, compounded by the work hardening & fired at higher pressures - the metal in the cases is over worked more - results can be the mouth is gone or split cases

It's always best to anneal - reform the case - anneal, then reload
If you want to learn a brass molecules hardening, buy Lyman's Cast Bullets book ...
https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Cast-Bullet-Handbook-4Th/dp/B004DWBKQY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1480426849&sr=8-3&keywords=lyman+books

[Moleman-]

Have you shot any jacketed ammo through the barrel? I wonder if the gas port still has a little burr on it or is still sharp and is shaving off some bullet material. On a 223 any burr doesn't last past the first few shots, but that's not the case with slower bullets. For fun a few years back I made a few 9x19 DI uppers. The first one put lots of lead in the gas system. I tracked it down to a burr on the gas port. Tried shooting some jacketed ammo through it which helped but did not entirely remove it. Ended up using a diamond ball dremel bit by hand to get the last bit of it. I'm shooting Lee 124gr RNTL bullets which leave tons of soft fouling in the carrier, but now there is no lead. The most I've ever shot at one time is between 350-500 rounds.

[popper]

I PC (HF red) both 308 & BO ARs. No problem with the gas system except clogging the gas key. Tube is clean, bolt is clean. GC doesn't make a difference. Turned a DI system into an piston system, sans rod.
I used to anneal the necks, don't do it anymore - 223 is so available and cutting/trimming/turning seems to do the job. I use the Lee dies and (luckily) they don't work the brass much anyway.

[yondering]

I PC (HF red) both 308 & BO ARs. No problem with the gas system except clogging the gas key. Tube is clean, bolt is clean. GC doesn't make a difference.

Yet another example of why not to use Harbor Freight powders.

If you're getting lead in the gas key even with gas checks, your powder coating is failing. Where else would the lead come from?

[BulletFactory]

I think there is a burr in the gas hole on the barrel. I did open it from .094 to .104"

[nrc]

I had a few cases do that (sorry I forget which headstamp it was) when I was forming 300 whisper rounds from brass I picked up at the range. Most of it was likely 1x fired, but some could have been more. Anyway - I never did anneal my necks and I lost a few cases that cracked on initizl resize and a few more that cracked when they bounced off the deflector.

I started making my whisper/blackout/300 fireball brass out of brand new/never fired 223 or 556 brass and never had another problem. Later on I got lazy and started buying formed brass from bradswarehouse (I have no relation to that vendor).

As others have said - bending or sizing the brass makes it harder, annealing makes it softer.

[yondering]

I think there is a burr in the gas hole on the barrel. I did open it from .094 to .104"

If there's a burr, you can usually feel it with a cleaning patch. If it snags fibers off a patch, try shooting a bunch of jacketed bullets through it, then come back to cast.

[BulletFactory]

Good idea on the patch, I'll give it a shot. I have been using a bore snake.

[Texas by God]

I've seen that a handful of times over a long reloading career. I've just chunked that piece and rocked on. I've never found anything wrong with the guns it happened in. IMO Best, Thomas.

[BulletFactory]

Am I doing this right? If not, I will be happy to pull the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmygAz-jySQ

[Yodogsandman]

"I think I found the issue. It wasnt folded in, I would have seen it. Not trying to be bold, but this is a new gun, 250rds, and Im in load development, so I am watching things very carefully at this stage.

The bullet diameter is .312, and after several rounds, a ring of lead forms in the chamber. Every now and then, I had to use the forward assist to get it to fully chamber. I hadnt isolated the problem yet. I think it was self clearing now and then, and would build up again. I was measuring bullets, case dimensions, gas checks, bullets checked, bullets unchecked, neck diameter, chamber diameter, and was even turning the necks in a neck uniforming tool. I had taken the upper off, and checked the bore, anything I could think of.. Well, last night, I was looking into the chamber area, and thought, "this doesnt look right" and ran a brush through from the muzzle first, which I almost never do. And there it was...A lead ring.

That would explain a lot !

A few years ago, I was trying to load for my first gun, an XD.40 sub, and had this problem. I'd started a thread called "Chamber Shearing". I found these little lead rings in the chamber, they were keeping it from going into battery. It was a very in depth thread, you could learn a lot there. Geargnasher really got it figured out, and I still thank him (and others) for their thought, time and input in the thread. I ended up getting a custom expander made from someone here, but I forgot who that was. It goes in the LEE powder through die, and Im still using it. And a custom push through sizing die which came out to .4015, after a little work.

Anyways, the bullets were just a little big and as they were starting to enter the throat area, would shear off just a tiny bit of lead, causing a buildup where the case should rest for correct headspace in a pistol. My blackout is doing this to me now.

I think that getting a LEE custom sizer at .309.

Would clear this up in the blackout?

What do you think?" BulletFactory

THIS^^^^^^ The lead rings caused you to have to jam the case into the chamber. When pressure rose at ignition the case mouth was pinched hard into the chamber. To release the boolit, with all the pressure behind it, it ripped away part of the case neck. It must have been the weakest link.

[BulletFactory]

Thats what I thought as well. Annealing them wouldnt hurt.

[dragon813gt]

I fast forwarded to the middle of the video where you were annealing. The one case I saw was really over heated. The color change was halfway down the case.

I've never seen anyone use a shell holder. Use a deep socket that the case has a slip fit it. It acts a heat sink. You can flick the cases out of the socket easily. I dropped them into a bucket of water but it's not necessary. It was so I could handle them immediately.

Your torch doesn't have a pencil tip. You want a small defined tip that you can place at the neck/shoulder junction. A broader tip is going to spread heat all over the place.

[BulletFactory]

Ok, I will delete the video. I dont want to give bad advice.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes Jayhawk, it was just one piece of brass.

Finally the correct answer.

I really don't think you need to worry about this, and I wouldn't change anything about the way you are making them or loading them.

The fact that one piece of brass fails in an odd way is not a cause to be anything but careful, which you should be doing anyway.

Now if a bunch fail,,, you've got a problem.

Randy

[BulletFactory]

I fast forwarded to the middle of the video where you were annealing. The one case I saw was really over heated. The color change was halfway down the case.

I've never seen anyone use a shell holder. Use a deep socket that the case has a slip fit it. It acts a heat sink. You can flick the cases out of the socket easily. I dropped them into a bucket of water but it's not necessary. It was so I could handle them immediately.

Your torch doesn't have a pencil tip. You want a small defined tip that you can place at the neck/shoulder junction. A broader tip is going to spread heat all over the place.


So, should I discard that batch of annealed brass?

[popper]

My blackout is doing this to me now. that long throat before the bore will do that, Size smaller or nose size to eliminate the problem.

[dragon813gt]

So, should I discard that batch of annealed brass?

It's hard to tell from a video and pictures. I have a lot of brass so I would personally scrap the cases. Every case brand will look different when annealed.

[BulletFactory]

Well thats disappointing. I think I'll just leave annealing to those with more experience.

[BulletFactory]

Before I toss the brass, it's about 1/3 of my stock, here's a picture of the average piece of brass. The sharpie line shows how far the rose color can be seen.

Keep them or toss them? Or can I run them through the sizing die a few times to work harden them?

http://i1313.photobucket.com/albums/t557/The_Prodigal_Sun/annealing%20line%20002_zpsubzmgaij.jpg (http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/The_Prodigal_Sun/media/annealing%20line%20002_zpsubzmgaij.jpg.html)

[yondering]

If the brass looks pink, you've gone too far. You may see dark brown patches in it as well, another indication of being way too hot. Try to pinch a case neck with your fingers; if you can deform it, it's too soft, and won't have enough neck tension to hold the bullet securely in an AR15.

You could try work hardening them, might as well if it's worth your time.

Personally I don't bother annealing 300 Blk unless it's been fired a bunch of times. I don't anneal after forming it from 5.56 any more.

[6bg6ga]

I don't bother annealing 300 blackout brass either. All my 300 brass has been made from used 5.56 or .223 brass and as such has been reloaded probably a few times already. I consider it acceptable loss if a few fail. I have a lot of brass waiting to be made into 300 brass.

[garym1a2]

I dont anneal blackout brass and I size the bullet to .309 with a lee push thru.
It works well for me with the lee 155gr bullet.