Dangerous game, High BHN Help!!!!!!!!

[Honeybadger]

Hey guys, I'm new here. And I am also new to casting bullets, so please forgive in advance the stupid questions that I am undoubtedly going to ask. I'm looking to learn how to make an alloy that has a high BHN, 22-25 would be good. I am trying to mimic the SUPER HARD CAST bullets that are used by the small Ammo companies such as Buffalo Bore, Garrett, etc, etc, etc. Is it possible to achieve that BHN for extreme penetration, and not have the bullet be brittle?? Can anyone help me out with some recipes that would suit my needs. By the way, I have around 50 or so lbs of Wheel Weights, and 50 lbs of pure Linotype at my disposal right now.......I know I'll need other stuff as well......I just wanted you to know what I've already got to work with.

[DougGuy]

What caliber, what gun, and what game? I could be mistaken but Lyman #2 water dropped or COWW water dropped will come close to BHN22.

Btw, welcome to the forum, and Happy Thanksgiving!

[Oklahoma Rebel]

how could both lyman no 2 and ww harden to the same bhn?

[Honeybadger]

Ruger Super Redhawk..........44 Magnum...........and the bullets I would use this alloy for would be with the intention of getting maximum penetration from a bullet such as an SSK.........I would use on Deer occasionally, given certain circumstances...........but would be used otherwise for large hogs or bear. Thanks for the welcome, and Happy Thanksgiving to you as well!

[Honeybadger]

Also, forgive my ignorance..........but what is COWW water dropped.........I assume it involves wheel weights??

[Ken in Iowa]

Also, forgive my ignorance..........but what is COWW water dropped.........I assume it involves wheel weights??

Yes, clip on wheel weight metal.

Water dropping means the boolits are dropped from the mould into water. This hardens them more than air cooling.

To reduce brittleness in hard boolits, add tin to match the percentage of antimony. Lyman #2 is a classic for hunting with 5% tin, 5% antimony and 90% lead. You can make it from the COWW and Linotype that you have now with a little tin added.

[Yodogsandman]

Clip On Wheel Weights (COWW) can be heat treated in an oven and quenched in cold water to 22-23 BHN. Heat treating only changes the BHN and not the merits of the alloy. This would be a more ductile alloy than linotype.

See this LASC Article about heat treating...

http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

Here's one on alloys, too...

http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletAlloy.htm

[paul h]

About a decade ago I sent some 0.476" 460 gr wfn's I cast from ww's and dropped from the mold into a 5 gal bucket (~18 bhn) to a guy who was going to the Linebaugh Seminar where people get together and try various loads from handguns and rifles to compare penetration. That year they were shooting into wet newsprint for one test, and a ~2" leg bone followed by newsprint for another test.

The guy I sent the bullets to shot a Ruger 480 SRH same I as I do, and was getting 1100 fps with the 460's, same as mine chronoed.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/6/0/5/605102271/790102446_E694F7AB8CF06937E17554D03A00F87B.jpg

The bullet on the left penetrated 48" of wet newsprint, the bullet on the right 2" of wet newsprint, 2" of bone and as I recall another 10" of newsprint.

I wished I'd made a copy of the results from that years tests, but that bullet at 1100 fps out penetrated most handgun and rifle loads, and the few loads that beat it from the 454, 475 and 500 only had a few inches more penetration.

You don't need a super hard bullet, you don't need super high velocity, but you do need bullet weight.

I have a friend who hunted Africa with a pair of customized Redhawks in 44 mag. He used the SSK bullets and was not happy with the performance on game. They penetrate well enough, but due to the small meplat they don't do as much damage as a good ogival wadcutter i.e. LFN or WFN shape.

If I was looking to maximize the performance of the 44 mag I'd split the difference between an LFN and WFN meplat, design the nose to fill the throat of the SRH cylinder and pick a weight of 330-350 gr.

Here's what such a bullet scaled up to 0.476" weighing 400 gr looks like for the 480.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/3/4/4/344100033/744100033_3339F6808143EE14AD3755B7E8638787.JPG

Second from the right next to the 460 gr WFN, and both as loaded below.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/evefiles/photo_albums/3/4/4/344100033/844100033_4F457815F3FED409FA5A9BDDBFE64661.JPG

[runfiverun]

high antimony means high brittle, it's not uncommon for them to break when you crimp them.
if you mix your clip on ww's 3 parts to 1 part linotype and add 2% more tin you'll be close to #2 alloy but with a touch more antimony and a little less tin.
this is the alloy I use when I want to drive things hard and fast, it also helps insure deep penetration and a good grip on the rifling.

Travis:
Tin retards the water quenching's affect.

[Honeybadger]

Thanks guys....all great stuff so far, please keep the advice coming!!!!!!

[Honeybadger]

Runfiverun, would I water drop/heat treat that alloy after casting??

[Outpost75]

Go to the library and find an article by George Martin in American Rifleman, mid 1980s, entitled Cast Bullets in Africa. He used heat treated wheelweight bullets in the .375 H&H for Kudu, Warthog and Cape Buffalo. Full charge loads.

[jsizemore]

Linotype will get you 22bhn but will be brittle, which has already been mentioned. The recipe that R5R gave you will air cool at 15bhn and water drop/heat treat at 22bhn but will hang together much more better then straight lino.

[Outpost75]

If you want a hard, but ductile bullets which will expand, but stay together, use 1 part of wheel weights to 5 pounds of plumber's lead, then heat treat in oven at 475 degs. F for six hours to put all the antimony into solid solution when water quenched within 5 secs. of removal from oven. When cool enough to handle bag the wet bullets into a Ziplock and put into the deep freeze and cold soak for 14 days minimum, then remove from freezer and let slowly come to room temp, dry, size, apply GC and lube. Good for 22-24 BHN and will expand like JSPs with 80% weight retention at 2200 fps.

[DougGuy]

If you want a hard, but ductile bullets which will expand, but stay together, use 1 part of wheel weights to 5 pounds of plumber's lead, then heat treat in oven at 475 degs. F for six hours to put all the antimony into solid solution when water quenched within 5 secs. of removal from oven. When cool enough to handle bag the wet bullets into a Ziplock and put into the deep freeze and cold soak for 14 days minimum, then remove from freezer and let slowly come to room temp, dry, size, apply GC and lube. Good for 22-24 BHN and will expand like JSPs with 80% weight retention at 2200 fps.

Somehow I am lost on the virtue of this treatment when one could do basically the same thing with air cooled 50/50+2% right? I mean granted 50/50 will likely lead the bore at 2200fps but you will get the same expansion and it will not fragment so what would benefit from this heat treating then water drop then deep freezing process?

[runfiverun]

not really.
the way outpost describes gives maximum hardness but with the ability to retain maximum malleability.
he is working over the antimonial matrix and 'freezing' the internal alloy so you don't have antimonial crystal migration.
one of the things arsenic does is work as a grain refiner as well as work as a precipitator for the antimony.

that's seriously getting the most from the least right there :lol:

the alloy I describe is geared towards penetration and weight retention, and is based on what he has on hand.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot THOUSANDS of big bore bullets cast out of lineotype into game and penetration testing and never seen one fracture. Ive seen small bore bullets pushed at rifle velocitys do it though. Ive shot two buffalo know with lineotype bullets and never found a scrap of lead in them. Now I have seen water dropped ww bullets fracture. Mostly swcs and they tend to loose there nose. We had a rash of them at one linebaugh seminar in a penetration test and ive seen it happen myself with my bullets. At the same seminar my 5.5 inch bisley 44 took 3rd place in the penetration testing agains so formitable rifles and handguns using a 340 grain lfn cast out of 5050 ww/lino at about 1200 fps.(don't ask the load, it was stout) All said and done if I was going to tackle game bigger then 500 lbs with a handgun the bullet would be idealy cast out of 5050 ww/lineotype and air cooled. you will have a tough enough bullet for any dutys and gain a bit of weight over a harder bullet.

[jeepyj]

Threads like this one are the reason I hang out on this site. even though today I'm not looking to accomplish the same thing as the OP, I sure do enjoy reading the amazing posts from you folks who been there done that. It helps us who are still absorbing the knowledge!
Jeepyj

[Honeybadger]

You guys are giving me such good info!!!!! I'm really grateful....I'll be trying it all, keep it coming.....I'll be printing it all out, and saving it for reference!!!!!!!

[Outpost75]

Somehow I am lost on the virtue of this treatment when one could do basically the same thing with air cooled 50/50+2% right? I mean granted 50/50 will likely lead the bore at 2200fps but you will get the same expansion and it will not fragment so what would benefit from this heat treating then water drop then deep freezing process?

The heat treated doesn't lead, and gives adequate hardness to load up to full jacketed velocity without sacrificing ductility.
Dig out some of the old American Rifleman articles by Dennis Marshall.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Please excuse my ignorance, but. If you are using a .44 Mag. and the main use will be on deer, my question is are these deer armored plated to need such a super hard boolet? About all I hunt anymore is whitetails here in Michigan. I use either a Ruger .45 LC or a Ruger .44 Mag. My boolet alloy is 50/50 (WW/pure lead)and gas checked at a decent velocity that is accurate. My farthest shot was just at 40 paces and went 15` and collapsed with a 300 gr. .44 mag. load. Bullet weight as has been stated already is primo along with a moderately hard boolet all at a decent velocity.Robert

[Honeybadger]

I've seen where one guy was adding 2 percent silver.....yes silver to his mix.........is that something you guys have heard of??

[Honeybadger]

Also, is a gas check necessary with a hard alloy??

[runfiverun]

silver is a good hardener but expensive.
you can mimic it's affect with zinc for free if you find some in your ww buckets.

and yes, no, maybe.

[Outpost75]

Also, is a gas check necessary with a hard alloy??

Absolutely! Because the hard bullet won't upset to seal the cylinder throats so WILL LEAD unless it already fits!

[DougGuy]

Ok I will let you in on this.. First off there isn't a deer or hog on the North American continent that won't fall quickly to a 310gr RF boolit pushed to 1180 ~ 1200fps. Secondly, the 50/50+2% alloy is like -THE- perfect alloy for Ruger's 1:16 twist and their rather tall land profile. As long as you are using soft lube. I do like the gas check with this alloy, as it helps to seal the bore and I never clean my SBH, as the soft lube leaves enough residue in there to "season" the bore between shots. In short, it just *works* like nobody's business in the deer woods. This is the only load I have assembled for my SBH, the gun was put upside down on a belt sander to reduce the height of the rear sight blade, then a new notch was filed in the middle. I don't suggest you go to this extreme, but this load, assembled with the modified collet crimp that I use, above 17.0gr H2400 shoots into one ragged hole at 25yds, and it is ALL that I will EVER need to harvest deer with a handgun, I would not bat an eye at taking it out for elk, bear, moose, or hogs with this same load.

Collet crimped loads on the left, roll crimped loads on the right"

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg.html)

[Outpost75]

For deer and hogs DougGuy is absolutely correct. When OP said "dangerous" game I was thinking of grizzly or Alaskan brown bear, large European boar over 200kg and black bear of similar weight.

[runfiverun]

I was thinking a bit more along the lines of Africa/Grizzly type stuff where maximum penetration with a flat nose was needed.

[Honeybadger]

I just want a 360 grain wadcutter......cause wadcutters are vicious......and I want the weight for more snowplow effect!!!!! Call me crazy, it's just what I want.

[jmort]

You will get a great bullet with 94/3/3 heat treated to north of 21 BHN
Will not fracture.

[DougGuy]

I just want a 360 grain wadcutter......cause wadcutters are vicious......and I want the weight for more snowplow effect!!!!! Call me crazy, it's just what I want.

Ok consider this.. At 360gr, you are a bit outside the point of diminishing return, where you can't launch a RF or full wadcutter hard enough to stabilize it, and you are already at the pressure limit so velocity falls off and when that happens, stability isn't far behind it. I would not look to go beyond the 310gr RF in this caliber, because this boolit will do it ALL for you. It is just enough ogive to have some decent BC, and plenty enough meplat to make the bulldozer effect. Look at some of the pigs that Fenring has shot with the 44, they perform exceptionally well.

[Honeybadger]

Good point! Do you have a specific mold you'd recommend that is already available?? Or would I be further ahead to just buy a specific bullet and save myself the trouble??

[DougGuy]

The Lee C-430-310-RF is a favorite with many here, there is also an improved version of this mold that was a group buy where the crimp grooves, the gas check shank, and the diameter was improved greatly. I do not have a link to this mold or group buy. If no one responds with the link, perhaps start a new thread over in the cast boolits sub forum asking about the C430-310-RF improved mold.

44man can point you at some too if he sees this thread.

[runfiverun]

he uses the LEE 310 too.

[Bigslug]

Methinks, Honeybadger, is that you're contemplating nuclear weapons when a small hand grenade will do the job just fine.

It sounds like your head is still in the land of copper jackets with soft cores, and you've yet to really experience what cast bullets of even mundane alloys and non-exotic cooling methods are capable of. Penetration is NOT even remotely a concern on medium game; in fact, when discussing his bullet design philosophy applied to his 250 grain answer to Keith's older, equivalent .44 Magnum bullet, Veral Smith says the Keith has more penetration capability than it really needs for such critters, and he goes for more meplat to increase tissue disruption.

Water-dropped wheelweight with enough tin (2% is pretty common) added to get decent fillout in your mold is an impressive performer - taking about 8-9 gallon milk jugs to stop either a 230 grain, .32" meplat, .45ACP at GI hardball speed of 830 fps, or a 130 grain, .25" meplat, .32-20/Martini hybrid at about 1250 fps. Effectively zero bullet deformation in either case.

Given that kind of penetration, adding weight for weight's sake is not the end-all, be-all. You lose velocity potential, and give up some trajectory and displacement/disruption capability because of it. Considering what you want to do, an LFN/WFN profile in the ballpark of 250-265 grains with a meplat of about .32" should solve just about any North American problem you're likely to encounter. Some outfits like NOE and MP Molds give you these with a hollowpointing option, increasing the versatility of the mold.

Gas checks. . .kind of a personal choice for what's done with a .44 Mag. They increase velocity and accuracy potential, and give you some leeway around not having all your diameters measured and properly accounted for, or if you've got a revolver with some frame crush in the barrel that hasn't been lapped out. My own take is that game over 50 yards is for rifles, .44 Mags over about 1100 FPS are not fun to shoot, and that if all fits properly and the right alloy is chosen, checks aren't necessary. Your mileage may vary.

[dverna]

I just want a 360 grain wadcutter......cause wadcutters are vicious......and I want the weight for more snowplow effect!!!!! Call me crazy, it's just what I want.

If you know what you want, why ask for advice? There are some really smart and experienced people here. Listen to what the majority of them say.

Don Verna.

aka grumpy old phart

[Hickok]

Just one word of advise. If there is so way you could get someone to send you some cast 310's so you can load them up.

You need to set down at a bench and shoot about 50 rounds of 310's @ 1200 fps from your Super Redhawk.

Sometimes, the pain may overcome the joy. (I know I am a wimp when comes to 300+ gr boolits in a .44 mag)

[Lloyd Smale]

that's for sure robert. I think more have that walter middy dream of a t-rex attacking them when in reality there shooting a whitetail that there family dog weights more then.
Please excuse my ignorance, but. If you are using a .44 Mag. and the main use will be on deer, my question is are these deer armored plated to need such a super hard boolet? About all I hunt anymore is whitetails here in Michigan. I use either a Ruger .45 LC or a Ruger .44 Mag. My boolet alloy is 50/50 (WW/pure lead)and gas checked at a decent velocity that is accurate. My farthest shot was just at 40 paces and went 15` and collapsed with a 300 gr. .44 mag. load. Bullet weight as has been stated already is primo along with a moderately hard boolet all at a decent velocity.Robert

[Hardcast416taylor]

Honeybadger. If you already have a boolet mold you like - stop reading this right now. If you don`t have a mold and are `shopping` for one then I suggest you look at Accurate Molds selection. You can also get a `customized` mold by simply talking to the owner.Robert

[paul h]

Also, is a gas check necessary with a hard alloy??

No. If you're guns dimensions of throat, forcing cone and bore are friendly to cast and your bullets are sized to your gun and you use a good lube, there is no need for a gas check. I've shot 1000's of magnum handgun rounds with plain based cast bullets with no leading at 1200-1500 fps. For the bullets I shoot in quantity I prefer a plainbase design to save time and money. But for a hunting bullet where I shoot at most a couple hundred a year I don't mind the flexibility of a gas check.

However, gas checks do allow for more flexibility in alloy hardness and bullet fitting so aren't a bad way to go if you don't mind the added cost and labor to fit them. And you might find that you prefer a softer lead alloy for hunting to allow some bullet upset.