30-30 H335 Leading Issue

[ProudOkie]

I found several people using H335 for their 30-30 loads. Im shooting a marlin micro groove. I was shooting WW water dropped 170 grain .311 but they wouldnt chamber, switched to 309. I loaded up 23.4, 26, and 28 grain loads. 23.4 had some leading, the other 2 a lot of leading. THey were 1730 fps, 1967, and the third was about 2100.

Any ideas on why they are leading?

[Morgan61]

Too high of a chamber pressure for your alloy. Try reducing your loads or powder coat your bullets instead.

I just started shooting cast boolits in my Marlin 336A (microgroove barrel) My best cast boolit load is 26gns. of H335 under a 165gn. boolit.
Haven't chronyed it yet but I'd estimate it's getting somewhere around 1900fps.
I'm using Lyman #2 alloy with no leading with powder coating.

[ProudOkie]

Too high of a chamber pressure for your alloy. Try reducing your loads or powder coat your bullets instead.

I just started shooting cast boolits in my Marlin 336A (microgroove barrel) My best cast boolit load is 26gns. of H335 under a 165gn. boolit.
Haven't chronyed it yet but I'd estimate it's getting somewhere around 1900fps.
I'm using Lyman #2 alloy with no leading with powder coating.

What are you sizing to?

[dubber123]

The Micro-Groove 336 I just worked with had a tight spot in the barrel right in front of the chamber. After firelapping, it is gone, and the rest of the bore is much smoother. I loaded 178 grain air cooled WW boolits with 34.5 grains of Leverevolution powder, and got over 2,100 fps. with no leading at all. You didn't mention lube, that makes a big difference.

[ProudOkie]

The Micro-Groove 336 I just worked with had a tight spot in the barrel right in front of the chamber. After firelapping, it is gone, and the rest of the bore is much smoother. I loaded 178 grain air cooled WW boolits with 34.5 grains of Leverevolution powder, and got over 2,100 fps. with no leading at all. You didn't mention lube, that makes a big difference.

Using Lee alox

[ProudOkie]

The Micro-Groove 336 I just worked with had a tight spot in the barrel right in front of the chamber. After firelapping, it is gone, and the rest of the bore is much smoother. I loaded 178 grain air cooled WW boolits with 34.5 grains of Leverevolution powder, and got over 2,100 fps. with no leading at all. You didn't mention lube, that makes a big difference.

What's firelapping

[Morgan61]

What are you sizing to?

I size them to .312"
I slugged my barrel and got a .3095" groove dia.

I didn't firelap but I used these with JB bore paste to smooth out my barrel:
http://www.brownells.com/gun-cleaning-chemicals/patches-mops/cleaning-pellets/super-intensive-pellets-fits-30-cal-7-5mm-qty-50-sku929000009-13839-33123.aspx

[dubber123]

What's firelapping

Short version is you roll some lead boolits between 2 steel plates with some valve lapping compound, which embeds the compound on the boolits. These are loaded over a light charge of fast powder and fired at low velocities. The compound takes out any high spots or roughness in a bore. I have had excellent results doing it and will continue to use it when needed. It's not a fast process. You should be able to find a better worded and more technical version of firelapping here on the forum.

Before you do any thing else, I would try a better lube. If you don't have a luber, you can easily hand rub a good lube on enough boolits to try. If your leading goes away, you have found your problem :)

[frankenfab]

Are gas checks being used?

[dubber123]

Are gas checks being used?

I've never shot a GC design without checks, so I always forget to ask that.. I know some people do. Yeah, fairly fast, Alox and no check wouldn't be a great combo :) Lets see what the OP says.

[Tar Heel]

Try sizing to .309, using 50/50 lube like White's Lube, use gas checks, and keep MV below 2000fps. I shoot mine in both the Marlin and Winchester rifles. They do just fine with no leading. What specific bullet are you casting?

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/


181273

[Morgan61]

Are gas checks being used?

I use gas checks.

[atr]

in my 30-30 model 340savage I have been shooting 180 gr cast/GC sized .311 with 748 at 2000 fps with no leading. good groups at both50 and at 100 yds
181274181275

[ProudOkie]

Try sizing to .309, using 50/50 lube like White's Lube, use gas checks, and keep MV below 2000fps. I shoot mine in both the Marlin and Winchester rifles. They do just fine with no leading. What specific bullet are you casting?

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/


181273

Shooting Lee 309 170 grain sized 309 and gas checks. So odd

[dubber123]

Shooting Lee 309 170 grain sized 309 and gas checks. So odd

The LEE 170 is the exact boolit I was using. Assuming you aren't trying to shoot them bare, (no GC), It's either rough/constricted bore, undersized boolits, or poor lube. Just start with the easiest to try and work from there. Lube is easy to check, size is next, then bore problems.

[ProudOkie]

Well I'm tumble lubing them in a lox
, how would I know of I'm doing that wrong?

[ProudOkie]

Try sizing to .309, using 50/50 lube like White's Lube, use gas checks, and keep MV below 2000fps. I shoot mine in both the Marlin and Winchester rifles. They do just fine with no leading. What specific bullet are you casting?

http://www.lsstuff.com/lube/


181273

Using the Lee 309 170 grainfp

[Mk42gunner]

Change one thing at a time or you will never know for sure what the fix was.

For my money, I am betting the Lee Liquid Alox is at fault. If you don't have a lubrisizer, I would try hand lubing a few (just smear it on with your fingers) with a different wax based lube. This could be as simple as a 50/50 mix of beeswax and shortening. If that fixes your problem, then buy or make a better lube.

Robert

[Yodogsandman]

Boolit fit. You're probably sizing the boolit too small. Gasses are blowing by, gas cutting the sides and ironing lead to your bore.

You should have no problems chambering a boolit sized to .311". Using too hard of a crimp will bulge the case neck slightly, preventing the round from chambering.

The case necks need to be expanded or belled out enough to accept the boolit without shaving. The shaving reduces the size of the boolit and blows the shavings down the barrel ahead of the boolit. I try for the full thickness of the gas check for the depth of the bell.

Boolits must be hard enough to go down the barrel without spinning off from the rifling during acceleration. Are you waiting for boolits to age harden after casting and water dropping?

[ProudOkie]

Boolit fit. You're probably sizing the boolit too small. Gasses are blowing by, gas cutting the sides and ironing lead to your bore.

You should have no problems chambering a boolit sized to .311". Using too hard of a crimp will bulge the case neck slightly, preventing the round from chambering.

The case necks need to be expanded or belled out enough to accept the boolit without shaving. The shaving reduces the size of the boolit and blows the shavings down the barrel ahead of the boolit. I try for the full thickness of the gas check for the depth of the bell.

Boolits must be hard enough to go down the barrel without spinning off from the rifling during acceleration. Are you waiting for boolits to age harden after casting and water dropping?
O no. I was just water dropping and loading them the next day or two. How long should I wait? I tried .311 and it wouldnt fit in the gun. Maybe I went too far to 309 should have gone 310

[Yodogsandman]

For any heat treated boolit, I would normally size as soon as possible and wait at least 5 days before shooting them. I wait 3 weeks for air cooled boolits.

Do you trim your cases all to the same over all length for roll crimping?

Did you change the crimp setting between the .309" and .311" boolits?

Have you made up any dummy rounds and then pulled out a boolit to see if the boolits being shaved or sized down by the case mouth.

Try to fit a boolit sized .311" into the mouth of a case fired from YOUR rifle. If it fits, you're crimping too hard and bulging the case neck.

Are you using a Lyman "M" die or something else like it to expand your case necks and bell out your case mouth?

[rond]

Try the .311 boolits again, this time trim your cases a little shorter. I have 2 Marlins and there is no throat in the chamber to speak of, I have to trim shorter than normal to chamber. H335 has worked well for me.

[Char-Gar]

I found several people using H335 for their 30-30 loads. Im shooting a marlin micro groove. I was shooting WW water dropped 170 grain .311 but they wouldnt chamber, switched to 309. I loaded up 23.4, 26, and 28 grain loads. 23.4 had some leading, the other 2 a lot of leading. THey were 1730 fps, 1967, and the third was about 2100.

Any ideas on why they are leading?

I don't think there is any mystery here. You sized the bullet too small. These 30-30 leverguns have very little freebore/throat. Often it is little more than a chamfer in the back end of the barrel in front of the chamber neck. This severely limits the types of bullets that can be chambered. Throw into the mix, the fact that Marlin MG barrels often are quite large in the grooves and you can see the problem.

If your bullet had any full diameter sticking out of the case neck, it would not chamber until you could get it small enough to go directly into the rifling. The bullet was too small and rattled down the barrel. Throw in the fact your bullets are way too hard and won't expand any at all at normal pressure, and there is your problem.

Marlin 336s in 30-30 will shoot cast bullets very well, but they are special needs children and attention must be given to their peculiarities. If you need a new mold the Ranch Dog 165 was made for such rifles and IIRC NOE has them in stock. NOE also makes 311407 Mod, that works well in these no throat rifles.

Of course, you can always take a 30 caliber throating reamer and put a throat in front of the chamber like Marlin should have done in the first place.

[ProudOkie]

For any heat treated boolit, I would normally size as soon as possible and wait at least 5 days before shooting them. I wait 3 weeks for air cooled boolits. - prob my issue its only been 3 days. Do you think water cooled WW can be shot at 1950 FPS w out leading?

Do you trim your cases all to the same over all length for roll crimping? yes

Did you change the crimp setting between the .309" and .311" boolits? I didnt think it was possible to change the crimp setting?

Have you made up any dummy rounds and then pulled out a boolit to see if the boolits being shaved or sized down by the case mouth. - yes, not being shaved down w 309 the 311 wouldnt go all the way in.

Try to fit a boolit sized .311" into the mouth of a case fired from YOUR rifle. If it fits, you're crimping too hard and bulging the case neck.- ah ok, i sold my 311 mold will need to find another. good idea.

Are you using a Lyman "M" die or something else like it to expand your case necks and bell out your case mouth? - using the lee expanding die for 30-30, but not belling the case mouth.


seeaboveIansweredthere,thanks!

[Yodogsandman]

You need a bigger sized boolit. It's "rattling down the barrel". It needs to be bigger than the groove size by at least .001". You're sizing it to less than the bore size to get the boolit to fit in that super short throat..

Air cooled COWW should be good for 1950FPS if it fits right.

You need to get that boolit into the case straight without any distortion. By adjusting the die up and down, the crimp will be softer or harder. Don't know about the Lee dies, though. A Lyman "M" die will expand the case neck to accept the larger cast boolits and bell the case mouth slightly for the boolit base to start without damage. A regular die is good for jacketed bullets at .308", the neck has to be made bigger for cast.

With basically no throat in the Marlins, boolits will have to be set back to a shorter over all length to chamber. Cut the cases shorter If you want to crimp into the boolits crimp groove. Cut them to the length you need for your rifle.

If you've sold your .311" sizing die, try them "as cast" right from the mold.

Lee Liquid Alox has been used to at least up to 2600 FPS without leading.

[ProudOkie]

I sure appreciate the pointers. Do u think a .356 9mm pure lead is too big to slug it with?

[Yodogsandman]

You can tap it down and round with a hammer so its close to .309".

[dubber123]

I sure appreciate the pointers. Do u think a .356 9mm pure lead is too big to slug it with?

That's gonna be tough to get started :) You can drill a hole in a block of wood to cast some more appropriate sized slugs in. Just split the block to get them out. When slugging, make sure the bore is clean, and pay attention to tight spots as you slide the slug through. Even the stampings on the barrel can commonly be felt. All of this stuff is fixable.

Air cooled WWs shoot totally leading free for me to at least 2,100 fps. once all the little stuff is taken care of.

[Morgan61]

I sure appreciate the pointers. Do u think a .356 9mm pure lead is too big to slug it with?

Drill a 5/16" hole through a piece of scrap steel and pound your slug through that first and then slug your barrel with it.

[runfiverun]

just drill that 5/16 hole in a piece of scrap wood and pour the soft lead in the hole.
that will give you a 312 slug to work with.

I would sacrifice a case and trim it back till the 311 boolit will chamber.
I'd also wait 3 weeks to load and shoot the water dropped boolits.
I'd also rub some chapstick in a few lube grooves and give that a go.

[ProudOkie]

Thanks guys! I ll give this a go I appreciate it!

[TNsailorman]

I let my water quenched boolits rest at lest 3 weeks before I size and load them. But I am shooting a big boolit, .441 at 384 grains and that's a fair size slug and requires proper hardening time. My experience anyway, james